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Michael Behe on the Witness Stand

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As most people are aware, Michael Behe championed the design-inspired ID Theory hypothesis of Irreducible Complexity.  Michael Behe testified as an expert witness in Kitzmiller v. Dover (2005).

Transcripts of all the testimony and proceedings of the Dover trial are available here.  While under oath, he testified that his argument was:

“[T]hat the [scientific] literature has no detailed rigorous explanations for how complex biochemical systems could arise by a random mutation or natural selection.”

Behe was specifically referencing origin of life, molecular and cellular machinery. The cases in point were specifically the bacterial flagellum, cilia, blood-clotting cascade, and the immune system because that’s what Behe wrote about in his book, “Darwin’s Black Box” (1996).

The attorneys piled up a stack of publications regarding the evolution of the immune system just in front of Behe on the witness stand while he was under oath. Behe is criticized by anti-ID antagonists for dismissing the books.

Michael Behe testifies as an expert witness in Kitzmiller v. Dover. Illustration is by Steve Brodner, The New Yorker on Dec. 5, 2005.

The books were essentially how the immune system developed in vertebrates.  But, that isn’t what Intelligent Design theory is based upon. ID Theory is based upon complexity appearing at the outset of life when life first arose, and the complexity that appears during the Cambrian Explosion.

The biochemical structures Behe predicted to be irreducibly complex (bacterial flagellum, cilium, blood-clotting, and immune system) arose during the development of the first cell.  These biochemical systems occur at the molecular level in unicellular eukarya organisms, as evidenced by the fact that retroviruses are in the DNA of these most primitive life forms.  They are complex, highly conserved, and are irreducibly complex.  You can stack a mountain of books and scientific literature on top of this in re how these biochemical systems morphed from that juncture and forward into time, but that has nothing to do with the irreducible complexity of the original molecular machinery. 

The issue regarding irreducible complexity is the source of the original information that produced the irreducibly complex system in the first place.  The scientific literature on the immune system only addresses changes in the immune system after the system already existed and was in place.  For example, the Type III Secretion System Injector (T3SS) is often used to refute the irreducible complexity of flagellar bacteria.  But, the T3SS is not an evolutionary precursor of a bacteria flagella; it was derived subsequently and is evidence of a decrease in information.

The examining attorney, Eric Rothschild, stacked up those books one on top the other for courtroom theatrics.

Behe testified:

“These articles are excellent articles I assume. However, they do not address the question that I am posing. So it’s not that they aren’t good enough. It’s simply that they are addressed to a different subject.”

Those who reject ID Theory and dislike Michael Behe emphasize that since Behe is the one making the claim that the immune system is Irreducibly Complex, then Behe owns the burden to maintain a level of knowledge as what other scientists write on the subject.  It should be noted that there indeed has been a wealth of research on the immune system and the collective whole of the papers published gives us a picture of how the immune system evolved. But, the point that Behe made was there is very little knowledge available, if any, as to how the immune system first arose.

The burden was on the ACLU attorneys representing Kitzmiller to cure the defects of foundation and relevance. But, they never did. But, somehow anti-ID antagonists spin this around to make it look like somehow Behe was in the wrong here, which is entirely unfounded.  Michael Behe responded to the Dover opinion written by John E. Jones III here.  One comment in particular Behe had to say is this:

“I said in my testimony that the studies may have been fine as far as they went, but that they certainly did not present detailed, rigorous explanations for the evolution of the immune system by random mutation and natural selection — if they had, that knowledge would be reflected in more recent studies that I had had a chance to read.”

In a live PowerPoint presentation, Behe had additional comments to make about how the opinion of judge John E. Jones III was not authored by the judge at all, but by an ACLU attorney.  You can see that lecture here.

Immunology
Piling up a stack of books in front of a witness without notice or providing a chance to review the literature before they can provide an educated comment has no value other than courtroom theatrics.

The subject was clear that the issue was biological complexity appearing suddenly at the dawn of life. Behe had no burden to go on a fishing expedition through that material. It was up to the examining attorney to direct Behe’s attention to the specific topic and ask direct questions. But, the attorney never did that.  Read more here.  There is also a related Facebook discussion thread regarding this topic.

Comments
#14 lastyearon: From intelligence. Now if you want to know how intelligence created it, or when, or why, then I can explain that to you, but it would have to be on another blog or something, because those are not scientific questions, and we only talk about science here. But "jerry" was claiming that his proposal was supposed to be a scientific proposal that could have been defended in court as such. My objection, which your statement obviously agrees with, is that his proposal is not tenable as a scientific position. Whether that position makes sense or not outside of that context is another subject, as you also seem to agree.nightlight
April 17, 2013
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NickMatzke_UD #5: You can't just go say ID is not about the immune system, but instead about the origin of life and the Cambrian explosion. The 'irreducible complexity' examples by Behe, or CSI examples by Dembski, serve as counterexamples to neo-Darwinian theory of evolution (ND=RM+NS), pointing to some instances where ND's RM+NS mechanism seems incapable of explaining the particular biological artifacts. The existence of direct counterexamples has no bearing on whether RM+NS mechanism is capable of explaining some other biological artifacts, such as micro-evolution (e.g. bacterial resistance to antibiotics). For example, say you offer a theory NM_UD that declares among others: ... x*x > 10 for all integers x. To invalidate NM_UD, it suffices to show an integer x, such as x=3, for which this NM_UD statement is false. That's a falsification by counterexample. Whether there are some integers x for which x*x>10 holds, or whether NM_UD has some other statements which are valid, is irrelevant regarding the established fact that NM_UD is a falsified theory. There is also no logical or scientific requirement that a falsification by counterexample must also provide an alternative theory that explains the phenomena that NM_UD sought to explain in order to declare NM_UD a falsified theory.nightlight
April 17, 2013
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What exactly are you proposing above as to how the present lifeforms came to be?
They were intelligently designed.
But then what did that farthest mother ‘elephant’ come from?
From intelligence. Now if you want to know how intelligence created it, or when, or why, then I can explain that to you, but it would have to be on another blog or something, because those are not scientific questions, and we only talk about science here.lastyearon
April 17, 2013
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I think another thing to keep in mind is that Design theory is not perfect. Like all scientific theories, they all have their problems. And even if Behe was wrong, and the articles presented about immune system evolution were good science, then maybe the predication was incorrect. Just like evolution, where predictions are incorrect all the time, we still see that to be labeled "good science". I see the word "surprise" a lot more in evolutionary literature than I see it in ID literature. It seems that ID, though it does have holes here and there, seems less surprised by life than Darwinism.ForJah
April 17, 2013
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Nick Matzke:
I recommend you try these arguments in the next court case.
Seeing that the next case will most likely include the fact that ID is NOT anti-evolution, I will be using those arguments in the next court case.
Waving one’s hand to dismiss scientific literature on exactly the question at hand with excuses, attempts to change the subject, and mischaracterizations of the literature will certainly work for sure next time!
Except that diatribe isn't scientific by any definition of the word. Science requires testing and right now there isn't any way to test unguided/ blind watchmaker evolution.
And, the evolutionary origin of the vertebrate immune system, which was brought up by Behe himself, for goodness’s sake!
No Nick. Behe brought up the DARWINIAN origin of the vertebrate immune system- meaning what bluind and undirected chemical processes produced it. And the literature doesn't cover that.
You can’t just go say ID is not about the immune system, but instead about the origin of life and the Cambrian explosion.
Sure we can, Nick. Ya see HOW life originated directly impacts HOW it evolved. OoL = design then evolution occurred by design, as in organisms were designed to evolve and evolved by design. No room for the blind watchmaker except when it comes to breaking and deteriorating. Ya see Nick, YOUR position cannot handle the truth. Can't wait to see you in court cupcake...Joe
April 17, 2013
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Unfortunately, in the real world, sound arguments and logic have little to no significant effect. Rhetoric and intimidation is generally what wins the day.William J Murray
April 17, 2013
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jerry #4: In other words the ID community has failed to address the actual problem in some very visual forums. The Dover trial was a case in point. One way of doing this is to say that the micro-evolutionary process is a very real one but also one that is remarkably limited. What exactly are you proposing above as to how the present lifeforms came to be? Take a female elephant and trace back to her mother, to her mother's mother,... Are you saying that there was some farthest 'mother', which was similar to elephant, within the presumed limits of 'micro-evolutionary process' (whatever exactly that means to you)? But then what did that farthest mother 'elephant' come from? Did she just materialize out of nothing as 'approximate elephant' (whatever that means in terms of your 'limits of micro-evolution')? Or did something shape it out of dust or mud? Or was she born of some other mother?... Or how exactly did that farthest mother elephant come into being according to your 'scientific theory' proposal? As explained in an earlier post, that kind of 'part time ID' (term explaned here), which divides the processes into "natural" (those explainable by the known laws of nature, such as 'micro-evolution') and the "un-natural" (those not explainable by the known natural laws such as 'macro-evolution', where presumably the intelligent agency has to come down to do it the "un-natural" way), is an incoherent position, confusing the map with the territory i.e. projecting into the processes themselves the attributes of our present state of knowledge about those processes. Such 'part time ID' position is as untenable as would be taking a copy of the paper map of Florida that has a pencil hole and declaring that there this means there is a sinkhole in Florida at the corresponding location.nightlight
April 17, 2013
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Eric, I am going to have to disagree with you. I have not seen any places where the approach I recommend has been taken by the ID community and when it does it is subtle not straightforward. Certainly not here though I have not been around much in recent years or followed the ID discussion very much recently but reading a few comments recently it seems that nothing has changed. I have no idea how much change that selection or other naturalistic approach can explain in the biological world but it definitely explains some if not a fair amount. That should be a given in any discussion involving ID just to get it out of the way. If ID is not going to address the incredible bio-diversity on the planet then its message will get lost except amongst the few who examine it in detail. ID lost a chance to educate the judge and the public at Dover. As far as I can see ID is still doing that. Look at Matzke's response. It is a childish one which indicates he does not really have anything worthwhile to defend his position but he somehow thinks it will work, not here but in the world. Because out in the real world this tactic works and ID let's it work.jerry
April 17, 2013
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"But, that isn’t what Intelligent Design theory is based upon. ID Theory is based upon complexity appearing at the outset of life when life first arose, and the complexity that appears during the Cambrian Explosion." I've read both of Behe's books and a book by Broom and listened to several of Berlinski's talks on video. Where did you EVER get the idea that Intelligent Design is ONLY about "the outset of life" or "the Cambrian Explosion"?? Specifically, in "Edge of Evolution", Behe argues that there must have been AT LEAST 4 SEPARATE interventions into life on Earth because random mutation is incapable of producing the huge leaps of complexity that appear between single celled and multi-celled life or between birds and mammals. So the Designer didn't simply employ some panspermian seeding to get life STARTED on Earth. The Designer has contnued tinkering with life on Earth over a period of several hundred million years. And the fact of that continued tinkering is an important and intriguing as the fact that Neo-Darwinism cannot explain the original rise of life from mere chemicals.mahuna
April 17, 2013
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DennisJones: ". . . the collective whole of the papers published gives us a picture of how the immune system evolved." Really? Or do they instead give us comparative genomics, handwaving stories, guesses, and suppositions? ----- jerry: I disagree. I think most prominent ID proponents, certainly in their writings and in their documentaries, give Darwin more credit than he deserves. They are often willing to assume for purposes of discussion that Darwin's mechanism explains microevolutionary events just fine. However, we're learning more and more that many of those microevolutionary processes may not even be driven by the alleged mutation+selection mechanism. ----- Nick, You know that the courtroom theatrics and arguments -- in which you were likely involved -- were just that. Stacking up a bunch of books and papers does not constitute a refutation of anything Behe said; it doesn't matter who brought up the topic. You are famous here for your literature bluffs. The courtroom theatrics were just another literature bluff. Unfortunately, the trial was presided over by someone who didn't know what he was doing and who, unfortunately, swallowed hook, line and sinker your (the NCSE's) flawed memo and reasoning to put together his opinion. Which, ironically, which was discovered using intelligent design principles. :)Eric Anderson
April 17, 2013
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I wonder how this news would have been recieved. Surely it flies in the face of what 'evolution' is supposed to do? Yes ... no? Excert: A diminutive species of human whose remains were found on the Indonesian island of Flores could have shrunk as a result of island dwarfism as it adapted to its environment. A study of the remains of the creature, nicknamed the "hobbit", shows that it is possible for it to have been a dwarf version of an early human species. For more see link below :) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22166736PeterJ
April 17, 2013
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I recommend you try these arguments in the next court case. Waving one's hand to dismiss scientific literature on exactly the question at hand with excuses, attempts to change the subject, and mischaracterizations of the literature will certainly work for sure next time! And, the evolutionary origin of the vertebrate immune system, which was brought up by Behe himself, for goodness's sake! You can't just go say ID is not about the immune system, but instead about the origin of life and the Cambrian explosion.NickMatzke_UD
April 17, 2013
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I was banned here once for criticizing Bill Dembski's reply to a student who challenged him at a presentation at some college. She challenged Dembski by saying Darwin showed this and that in his research and what he showed was obvious. Dembski did not address her specific questions by given Darwin his due but tried to just defend the ID hypothesis. He instead should have responded to her by saying that she was missing the point. Darwin's ideas while very insightful were very limited. Darwin's failure was not that he discovered a bogus process but that he oversold the process. In other words the ID community has failed to address the actual problem in some very visual forums. The Dover trial was a case in point. One way of doing this is to say that the micro-evolutionary process is a very real one but also one that is remarkably limited. Give Darwin his due but then show that what Darwin observed and wrote about does not and can not explain all of life's complexities. Make them do the explaining. That is one of the major failures of ID. If it becomes part of the ID genetic make-up, they will have the upper hand. But instead they end up defending what are often vague positions. It flows from an almost pathological resistance to the issue by some which says I will not give Darwin or any evolutionary processes any credence. It is one of the things I found on this forum when I first started commenting here 7 years ago. It ends up making those who take this tact look anti science and misguided or just plain stupid. And who wants to listen to such people.jerry
April 17, 2013
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as to:
It should be noted that there indeed has been a wealth of research on the immune system and the collective whole of the papers published gives us a picture of how the immune system evolved.
Yet,,, In this following podcast, Casey Luskin interviews microbiologist and immunologist Donald Ewert about his previous work as associate editor for the journal Development and Comparitive Immunology, where he realized that the papers being published were comparative studies that had nothing to do with the actual evolution of the immune system at all (i.e. begging the question).
What Does Evolution Have to Do With Immunology? Not Much - April 2011 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2011-04-06T11_39_03-07_00
Earlier Dr. Ewert related how the 'literature dump' on immunology at Dover was in fact a deceptive tactic on the Darwinists part
"A Masterful Feat of Courtroom Deception": Immunologist Donald Ewert on Dover Trial - audio http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-12-20T15_01_03-08_00
The immune system is now found to be far more complex than at first realized,,, Irreducible complexity meets multifunctionality:
Immune system molecule with hidden talents - January 22, 2013 Excerpt: The human immune system is made up of some half a dozen different cell types that are all working in tandem. Team work is key since each cell type has a single unique job to perform, which is central to its ability to help defend the body against invaders and ward off disease. If one of these players is taken out of commission, the entire system is thrown out of whack.,,, "We had no idea that B cells and dendritic cells use immunoglobulins to communicate with each other. It just goes to show you how complex the immune system really is and how we are a long way from truly grasping the full scope of its complexity," http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-01-immune-molecule-hidden-talents.html Of related note: Immunity bacteria are shown to be species specific (Regardless of the surprising result, Darwinists still insist evolution did it.)
Our Microbes, Ourselves: Billions of Bacteria Within, Essential for Immune Function, Are Ours Alone - ScienceDaily (June 21, 2012) Excerpt: Chung repeated the experiment, only this time populating a third group of mice with microbes common to rats. This new group showed the same immune system deficiency as the humanized mice. "I was very surprised to see that," Chung said. "Naturally, I would have expected more of a half-way response." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120621130643.htm
As well, the deception (literature dump/bluff), from Darwinists at Dover did not stop with immunology (nor with the plagiarism of Judge Jones opinion from the ACLU's legal brief);
The NCSE, Judge Jones, and Bluffs About the Origin of New Functional Genetic Information – Casey Luskin – March 2010 http://www.discovery.org/a/14251
bornagain77
April 17, 2013
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Re:
Piling up a stack of books in front of a witness without notice or providing a chance to review the literature before they can provide an educated comment has no value other than courtroom theatrics.
A rhetorical/propaganda stunt that should have been ruled out of order by the judge. KFkairosfocus
April 17, 2013
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The judge and plaintiffs lawyers equivocated evolution with blind watchmaker evolution. It was very telling that the pro-ID lawyers did NOT object when this stunt was pulled- and that tells me theye didn't know what ID is arguing against.Joe
April 17, 2013
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