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More Hand Wringing Over Texas

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In my earlier post about the Texas Science standards, I noted the hand wringing over the new language by Eugenie Scott, at the NCSE. Well, the moaning continues. An article has appeared in Education Week entitled Retooled Texas Standards Raise Unease Among Science Groups

Steven Newton of the NCSE frets over the wording of this statement in the new standards:

“In all fields of science, analyze, evaluate, and critique scientific explanations by using empirical evidence, logical reasoning, and experimental and observational testing, including examining all sides of the scientific evidence of those scientific explanations so as to encourage critical thinking by the student.”

This is too much for Mr. Newton.

But Steven Newton, a public information project director at of the National Center for Science Education, an Oakland, Calif.-based organization that supports teaching evolution in public school science classes, said the document’s call for students to examine “all sides of scientific evidence” is problematic.

Supporters of “intelligent design,” he noted, have claimed that scientific evidence supports their view—an assertion rejected by the vast majority of scientists.

We sure wouldn’t want students to examine all sides of scientific evidence now would we, Mr. Newton!? Why, some of them might have the audacity to question some of the evidence for evolution. But why is that a problem? As I pointed out in the prior post, that is exactly what real scientists do all day long.

Mr. Newton isn’t alone in his fretting. Francis Q. Eberle, the executive director of the National Science Teachers Association, also has some issues with some of the wording.

Another amendment approved by the board requires students to “analyze and evaluate a variety of fossil types, such as transitional fossils, proposed transitional fossils, fossil lineages, and significant fossil deposits with regard to their appearance, completeness, and alignment with scientific explanations in light of this fossil data.”

Francis Q. Eberle, the executive director of the National Science Teachers Association, a professional organization based in Arlington, Va., said that language, particularly the wording about “proposed” fossils, is unscientific and misleading.

It is “an attempt to interject subjectivity and belief systems into a major unifying theme of science by isolating the concept out of context of the other evidence,” Mr. Eberle said in an e-mail. “Hence, this is no longer science, but something else.”

Something else? And what would that be, Mr. Eberle? Perhaps the real worry is that some students might come away from all this analyzing, evaluating and critiquing with some serious doubts about the claims of evolutionary theory. In turn, that might lead to seriously consider (gasp!), Design! (eek!!!)

Comments
Tommy V, thank you for the response. You would be correct in detecting criticism in my post, your dismissal of it, however, is lacking. "I assume you are not equally critical of Mr. Darwin for this massive oversight?" Are any questions I present not valid, or even interesting, if I do not post some pointed questions towards proponents of evolution beforehand? Furthermore, why would I wish to ask for a defense of evolutionary theory from an ID website? "While people may have their own personal ideas of the questions you raise, ID itself offers no insight on anything that we lack scientific data on. If other theories offer no insight into what we lack data on, why are you asking ID to do so?" I am not more or less critical of ID than I am of any other theory, it's what I do, and how I think. This venue would be, however, a strange place to discuss the shortcomings of theories in the social sciences, for example. More directly, here I am asking some questions of intelligent design because this is, after all, a site constructed with the purpose of serving the intelligent design community. "...I assume if/when there is scientific data that leads down those paths those questions will be addressed." The purpose of my questions are to gauge a few assumptions of ID theory that I do not believe its proponents give much thought. After all, ID gives the appearance of having two key elements: 1. A comprehensive criticism of the sufficiency of evolution to explain the appearance of complexity. 2. The positive assertion that the apparent design in biological structures is actual design. My questions are directed towards number 2. For the sake of continuing, lets assume that the criticisms of evolution by ID are entirely correct. That being the case, my questions concern underlying assumptions of ID. While concepts such as irreducible complexity may be used to infer that biological structures ARE designed, is it not a prerequisite question to ask if biological structures CAN be designed? HOW are biological structures designed by an intelligence? If these questions do not have answers, or cannot be answered, are the inferences of design any different from the "just so" narratives of the progressive evolution of biological complexity?theface
April 10, 2009
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theface: I can't speak for other people, but I assume if/when there is scientific data that leads down those paths those questions will be addressed. They will probably be addressed the same way most of the questions are answered now: by inference. That inference then leads you down certain trails where hopefully the inference becomes a unified theory. Correct my if I am wrong, but I detect an underlying tone of criticism in your post. If that's so, then I think your criticism is similar to some creationists' dismissal of Darwin's theories because he does not offer an explanation for how life began. While it is true, Darwin did not offer such an explanation (his most famous work is called On The Origin of Species, not On The Origin of Life), the lack of such an explanation has nothing to do whether he was correct or not. (I think he was incorrect for other reasons). I assume you are not equally critical of Mr. Darwin for this massive oversight? I am being a little snarky here, but I hope you see my point. While people may have their own personal ideas of the questions you raise, ID itself offers no insight on anything that we lack scientific data on. If other theories offer no insight into what we lack data on, why are you asking ID to do so?Tommy V
April 10, 2009
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Per DonaldM: "It is also interesting to note, that the more we learn about how some things work, the intricate complexity of the cell, for example, the more difficult these things are to explain by chance and/or necessity. It would seem to me that if evolution really were as obvious as advertised, then the processes by which it operates would become clearer as our understanding of biological systems increases. The exact opposite seems to be the case." [edited for spelling] As, to quote DonaldM, "the exact opposite seems to be the case", and ID is proposed as an alternative explanation, how clear then is the process of design? How is it that an intelligence "designs" the cell? Does this insinuate that some sort of planning, for lack of a better term, is involved? Is the intelligence bound by existing materials in order to design biological structures? If not, and the intelligence must indeed "create" biological materials, what is the mechanism by which an intelligence "creates" matter? Are these not questions which IDers think about?theface
April 10, 2009
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Seversky #20 I don't know if you're a Darwinist but your post isn't an explanation of Darwinism that is particularly well articulated to the world. Your explanation leaves open the possibility of other mechanisms, even an intelligent designer, provided there is evidence. That at least is far less dogmatic than the way Darwinists normally portray the theory, i.e. it is very often asserted to be indisputable fact. In fact, if others held to your idea of the theory (that other explanations could be given for the observed evidence), then there would be little need for the Science Standards to demand objectivity and analysis. Sadly, they do not. As for what constitutes evidence for ID, and this is also relevant to the falsifiability of the grand theory of evolution, it's very difficult to find consensus on what that might be (other than a rabbit in the Cambrian!) or even openness to the possibility of its existence. For instance, Dr Behe and others have written of the irreducibly complex bacterial flagellum. Unable to point to any known incremental beneficial stages in its evolution, they cite it as evidence against undirected random mutation and selection. However, the Darwinists reply that we may not know the stages at the moment, but it's possible we will in the future, and even if we don't it's not proof it didn't evolve. The paucity of transitional fossils, likewise thought by many as strong evidence against Darwinism, is dismissed as being down to poor preservation of fossils, a poor fossil record, etc., on to punctuated equilibrium where the absence is now the evidence! There are many other examples I could use (others have mentioned the Cambrian explosion) which show that lots of aspects of the theory of evolution have real problems, to the point that many believe these particular aspects have been falsified. But they are brushed off as unimportant since 'we know evolution is a fact', or they are 'futurised' (we may not know how to explain them at the moment but we will in the future) despite many having been around since Darwin. Or the theory...well, evolves to fit contrary data. Scientific theories are often adjusted, but evolution seems particularly slippery and able to explain contradictory data. It is not falsifiable, although certain aspects of it may be.saywhatyouwill
April 10, 2009
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DonaldM,
However, with evolution, Tommy V points out, the process isn’t well understood. Some might say it isn’t understood at all. Thay pretty much makes it unfalsifiable, because we don’t know what the seemingly contrary evidence is telling us (i.e. the Cambrian Explosion).
Maybe we can't understand it because it isn't true. lol (At least, from a completely materialistic neo-Darwinian position.)Domoman
April 10, 2009
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Saywhatyouwill,
We are constantly told that the theory of evolution is as solid a fact as any you will find in science, yet it’s the only theory that scientists seem to feel they need to protect at all costs from being objectively studied in the classroom. I can’t help wondering why that might be…
and, DonaldM,
Good point. If evolution really was as well established as, say, the theory of gravity, or or some other well estabished law or theory of science, then why should there be any concern whatsover about students analyzing, evaluating and critiquing it? If the evidence for evolution is so obvious and overwhelming that it can not be missed, then there doesn’t seem to be any good reason to protect it from analysis and evaluation.
That neo-Darwinists object to evidence against the Theory of Evolution cannot possibly be of scientific matters. There's scientists that object to the Big Bang, that even object to Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, etc., that are not so persecuted as those who object to the Theory of Evolution. I honestly believe it's an intellectual/emotional issue (if you will). It's that those, at least many of them, who believe in the Theory of Evolution like thinking of life as not having a creator. Dawkins, for instance, doesn't just believe in the Theory of Evolution, but he also has a problem with God (or at least, the general picture of God). I would go so far as to say that Dawkins probably hates God (a being he claims doesn't exist.) :P If it was really a science issue then most people wouldn't care about the issue. It's when ethics and ultimate purpose get involved with issues of science that people raise objections. But this speaks true of both sides, whether you be a theist or atheist; creationist or darwinist; educated or uneducated.Domoman
April 10, 2009
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TommyV
It is really quite amazing how much of the current scientific understanding of evolution is educated guessing and inference, and how little of it is observed or even testable. All of this coming from a previous assumption that Neo-Darwinism is essentially proven. These assumptions and the lack of direct knowledge of how speciation and morphological change happens is what makes it so difficult to falsify, not the validity of the theory itself. This is why I find arguments of falsifiability so unconvincing and much more of a debating tool than a genuine search of truth.
Excellent point! Falsification can only work if a process is well understood. For example, the process of heating water to 212deg F at sea level results in the water boiling. This is well understood. If someone were to heat water to 150deg F at sea level and the water boiled, then a possible falsification might have occured. Because the process is well understood, whether an actual falsification took place could be better investigated. However, with evolution, Tommy V points out, the process isn't well understood. Some might say it isn't understood at all. Thay pretty much makes it unfalsifiable, because we don't know what the seemingly contrary evidence is telling us (i.e. the Cambrian Explosion). It is also interesting to note, that the more we learn about how some things work, the intricate complexity of the cell, for example, the more difficult these things are to explain by chance and/or necessity. It would seem to me that if evolution really were as obvicus as advertised, then the processes by which it operates would become cleaerer as our understanding of biological systems increases. The exact opposite seems to be the case. And, to yank this back to the OP, I think the hand wringing over the new Texas standards is precisely because of a fear that if students learned how to properly analyze, evaluate and critique a scientific hypothesis and the evidence for it, they might begin to see the disconnect between the evidence and the theory as well as how poorly understood are the processes of evolution.DonaldM
April 10, 2009
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Tommy V, I appreciate your understanding of what ID is and what it is not, and that coming from an atheist. The fact that there are atheists questioning Darwinism is no surpirse to me. One of the first books I read regarding the weaknesses of Darinism is a book by an atheist philosopher, the late Austrailian David Stove, in "Darwinian Fairytales." Stove called Darwinism "a ridiculous slander on human beings." And this coming from an expert on the philosophy of David Hume, which was pretty much a precursor to Darwin's philosophy. Stove was precise and consistent in his scepticism. To him, nothing is worth believing without some logical argument based on evidence. He could not support Darwinism simply because it supported his philosophy of atheism, because for him, it was such an illogical explanation, based in fables and half-truths, from its very beginnings, right on through to the neo-Darwininian synthesis. His book is an excellent read if you want to discover just how absurd much of the Darwinian "just-so" story telling really is.CannuckianYankee
April 10, 2009
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Nnoel, re: #10 I was going to answer every point, except that I later noticed that Tommy V had done such a good job already, except regarding the following (which he didn't address): I stated: “The Darwinists are not well versed in the cosmological arguments for the existence of God. …[snip]… one necessary being, who created all other contingent beings.” ...and you stated: "Are you well versed in the eastern view of the world having a beginingless beginning? From that point of view your comments are absurd, so there are large proportions of Asian people that would find your comments a bit like crazy ravings. Not saying that’s my point of view, but just thought I’d mention." I like to say that I'm well versed at least in some basic areas of logic, and to say that something has a beginningless beginning, while it may sound poetic, is an obvious logical contradiction. Therefore, it would be completely invalid as an argument for anything at all. A billion people believing my logic is absurd does not make it so. Furthermore, the cosmological argument is perfectly logical and non-contradictory. Absurdities arise when we begin talking about traversing an actual infinite, because actual infinites do not exist in the real world. Yet the logical beginning of evolution is found in an infinite past. It has to be so, because the Darwinists do not believe that there was a necessary first cause for everything that exists. If there is no first cause, then there is an infinite regression of causes, which is logically absurd. With that in mind, it makes no difference if there are large numbers of anyone who believe in a beginningless beginning, it is no less contradictory. Truth is not so, based on the numbers of people who believe a proposition, but on the solidity of a proposition's logic. And besides that, for every 100 Asians that believe in the proposition you stated, I'm sure there are 100 others who believe otherwise.CannuckianYankee
April 10, 2009
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DonaldN @ 16
If science teachers in Texas adhere to the new standards, then perhaps one day a bright high school student will raise her hand and say: “Mrs. Dunwoodie, how do we know scientifically that the apparent design we’ve been observing in all these life forms we’ve been studying could not possibly be actual design?”
To which "Mrs Dunwoodie" ought to reply: "Science does not say that the appearance of design in Nature could not possibly be actual design. Anyone who tells you that is misrepresenting what science can and cannot say. What Charles Darwin did was to construct an explanation of how life on Earth could have changed and diversified over time which did not require the intervention of an intelligent agent. His theory does not exclude the possibility of an Intelligent Designer but it does not include one because it does not need one. There is nothing to prevent anyone from presenting a case for an Intelligent Designer. But if a proponent of Intelligent Design wants to persuade you or me or anyone else to accept that claim they will have to give us good reasons to do so in the form of evidence and arguments. That is no more or less than what is required of any candidate explanation in science."Seversky
April 9, 2009
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Thanks for the informative post jerry. I suppose I would have some follow-up questions. To the extent that ID questions the sufficiency of RM&NS as a mechanism to produce complexity, I would wonder what ID has to say regarding the mechanism of design. What is the mechanism by which an intelligence "designs" biological structures? In the way the mechanism by which this coffee cup reaches my mouth is muscle contractions in my arm which grip and lift the cup towards me, is ID capable of elucidating a mechanism by which an intelligence designs biological structures? Would the intelligence require appendages? Does the design of biological structures indicate that the intelligence must exist as an entity within space and time? If it does not live as such, and lives outside of space and time, how would an intelligence existing external to space and time manipulate structures existing within space and time? Really, I suppose I'm interested in the extent to which ID is interested in the designer, as opposed to cataloging entities as "designed" as an endgame.theface
April 9, 2009
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Nnoel:, Here is something I wrote about 6 months ago as to what everyone should know before they debate about ID so there is no waste of time discussing irrelevancies. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/november-apologetics-conference-we-need-more-than-good-arguments/#comment-296129 Tommy V has a good assessmentjerry
April 9, 2009
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Tommy V's post to Nnoel is excellent, and it describes how many ID followers came to be where they are. Nnoel, (welcome to UD) take a moment and read the research paper under the heading "Three Subsets of Complexity" by Trevors and Abel. You can google it and download it. If you are not accustomed to techinical data in maths and such, then power your way through it anyway. The framing of the argument will become clear nonetheless. Of course Behe's book "Darwin's Black Box" and Michael Denton's book "Theory in Crisis" are also excellent. (as is Behe's second book "The Edge of Evolution". and surely Mike Gene's book "The Design Matrix") For a non-technical but powerful (and elegant) outline of the debate there is also David Berlinski's "The Devils Delusion". Berlinski pulls no punches and will give you gutteral laughs as well. It's brilliant. In any casse, I am glad you are on the board, as well as Tommy V. His corrective comments are appropriate. The debate is not about evolution per se, and it's certainly not about teaching standards. ID is about evidence.Upright BiPed
April 9, 2009
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saywhatyouwill
We are constantly told that the theory of evolution is as solid a fact as any you will find in science, yet it’s the only theory that scientists seem to feel they need to protect at all costs from being objectively studied in the classroom. I can’t help wondering why that might be…
Good point. If evolution really was as well established as, say, the theory of gravity, or or some other well estabished law or theory of science, then why should there be any concern whatsover about students analyzing, evaluating and critiquing it? If the evidence for evolution is so obvious and overwhelming that it can not be missed, then there doesn't seem to be any good reason to protect it from analysis and evaluation. All this hand-wringing over the remote possibility that "creationism", or something like it, might sneak into a science classroom somewhere is a smoke-screen. The real fear, I think, is that bright students, taught how to properly analyze, evaluate and critique a scientific hypothesis or theory, might conclude there's something amiss about evolutionary theory and its explanations for how diverse biological life forms came to be. In other words, its about protecting dogma and not about teaching science. If science teachers in Texas adhere to the new standards, then perhaps one day a bright high school student will raise her hand and say: "Mrs. Dunwoodie, how do we know scientifically that the apparent design we've been observing in all these life forms we've been studying could not possibly be actual design?" That's the sort of question the NCSE and the NSTA want to avoid at all costs! They'd much prefer to simply tell students what Francis Crick told a group of scientists: "Scientists must remind themselves everyday that what they are observing through their microscopes was not designed." I wonder what the response would be if Mrs. Dunwoodie were to answer that hypothetical bright young student with that sort of an answer.DonaldM
April 9, 2009
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Nnoel: I apologize for the lack of explanation, but it was more of a time issue than a lack of desire. First, I am not an IDer. But my main problem with ID is not a scientific one. Most deist would consider me an atheist, so it's hard for me to fathom a designer. That's a personal block for me, and is actually kind of irrelevant to ID, which as you can see, I personally respect a lot. Just a couple things came to mind when I saw your post (I should be working, but... luckily I work at home) ID does not dispute evolution at all. While there are some IDers who would argue that evolution "is fine, up to a point"... ID actually only takes issue with the mechanism by which evolution happened, arguing that current explanations fall well short of what the current consensus claims. You say ID puts "God in the gaps" and ID says science currently puts "Darwin in the gaps". It is really quite amazing how much of the current scientific understanding of evolution is educated guessing and inference, and how little of it is observed or even testable. All of this coming from a previous assumption that Neo-Darwinism is essentially proven. These assumptions and the lack of direct knowledge of how speciation and morphological change happens is what makes it so difficult to falsify, not the validity of the theory itself. This is why I find arguments of falsifiability so unconvincing and much more of a debating tool than a genuine search of truth. The Cambrian Explosion still serves as a massive challenge to Darwin's theory. Darwin expected us to fill out the gaps as fossil discoveries continued, but that hasn't happened. But today's science has focused on explaining the Cambrian Explosion away as opposed to accounting for it. "Yes, it seems to falsify Darwin's arguments, but because we know Darwin was essentially right, we'll figure out why it doesn't falsify it later." It seems it really is about what you already believed beforehand. I find this a massive problem all across the scientific spectrum. From Darwinist (for lack of a better term) to IDers alike. The argument for ID is pretty simple: that there are natural systems that cannot be explained by unguided natural forces, and that these systems, in any other context, would be attribute to intelligent design. ID looks to infer design on the natural patterns, much like Darwinist infer natural selection and other evolutionary engines into evolution. (This is another area where I think ID needs to expand its thinking. Just because current explanations are lacking, does not mean we will not discover an explanation later on that makes total sense and makes everything fall into place. But that's what science is about and what makes the field so exciting as people from all different perspectives keep exploring) The key is not to be confused with, "Sure, it appears designed, so it must be designed". The argument looks for sufficient complexity in the pattern that eliminates random chance. We actually infer intelligent design on things everyday. ID just takes this logic and problem-solving to a whole new level. And yes, it's true, ID takes no stand on whether it was God or aliens that designed these systems. Though, obviously, most tend to believe the former. :) Darwin himself said that certain things would falsify his theory. ID decided to take him on in that area (irreducible complexity) and I have enjoyed the debate. That is actually where I learned just how little current science knows about evolution as they tried to explained away irreducible complexity with more hypotheticals that I could even keep track of. They were right, that there were a few possible, almost miraculous explanations of how such a thing could have happened, but what they ultimately proved to me was how small our current understanding was. They were stuck with "This probably happened", "this could have happened" or "maybe this happened"... They just didn't know how, but they damn well it happened by accident. Also, the amount of pressure on both tenured and non-tenured scientists to stick with conventional neo-Darwinist thinking is immense. I would call it a war footing. Anything that doesn't support Neo-Darwinism is considered possible ammo for Creationist and severely attacked. The industry funding puts tremendous pressure on people to stick with conventional thinking. Tenure does not protect you from social or funding pressure, and this doesn't even count the pressure to conform before you even get tenure. There is an immense culture war that has infected the scientific community. I have seen it myself, and I have read many stories indicating it is wide-spread. I wish science was pure, but it is not. There are plenty more people who understand these arguments better than me, so please allow me the right adjust my writing if I stated anything incorrectly. (This is why I deferred to offer an explanation before! This is just the tip of the iceberg of this discussion!)Tommy V
April 9, 2009
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Mnoel: You say: "the person that disproves evolution will have fame and fortune beyond their wildest dreams, if anyone ever manages it…. It is the highest achievement in academic circles for a scientist to disprove a falsifiable theory that had until that point been presumed to be true." The above statement is so apropos, maybe or maybe not as you intended. You are right that no person will become astoundingly famous for disproving macroevolution by RM&NS because it is not falsifiable. Richard Dawkins and those of his ilk can paint all of the pretty verbal pictures of how the mammalian eye evolved, and with much bravado and bluster maintain and defend such pretty verbal scenarios, but in the end it is all so laughably unfalsifiable. In other words, ZERO EVIDENCE.groovamos
April 9, 2009
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public information project director
Iow, Darwinian Fundamentalist Propaganda Director. ;-)Borne
April 9, 2009
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umm... I've read Denise O'Leary stating she believes in evolution but also promotes ID. (I may have mis-read that bit, as it surprised me at the time of reading) I understand that, but for a while I thought everyone here was completely anti-evo, partly because of the people I have responded to above. It is my understanding that ID says 'evolution is ok to a point, but after that, something must have had a 'guiding hand'. How accurate is my understanding? You say I have a pop-culture understanding, but I think using your terminology, I was responding to a pop-culturists. Also, I must say it is a bit typical of most ID'ist that you give criticism but offer no other options, or to use another term, it is not constructive criticism because you offer no information to show how I am suppose to learn more. Very much like a Creationist saying 'Darwin was wrong, but we provide no falsifiable theory of how he is wrong'. Please, correct me, dont just say "learn more about the thing you disagree with so much". That is of no use to me. Btw, I Love you random internet person, cause your me! (in a everyone is everything kind of way!) And I apologise if you not feeling my love right now, but it's there!Nnoel
April 9, 2009
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Nnoel: I think you completely misunderstand the issue and you completely misunderstand Intelligent Design. You have only a surface, pop-culture understanding of ID. I'm glad that you're here but I think it would be appropriate for you to learn more about the thing you disagree with so much.Tommy V
April 9, 2009
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@CannuckianYankee in [7] "The Darwinists are not on the side of academic freedom - they are on the side of suppression" - Part of Academic Freedom is the principle that tenured professors cannot be fired because of what they research, no matter how it upsets the people/government (as long as they do not stray from their field of study too far while they are upsetting people with their research). With this in mind, all your 'darwinists' are presumably tenured professors, so your comments are meaningless with that in mind. Also, MARK MY WORDS, and remember them well, the person that disproves evolution will have fame and fortune beyond their wildest dreams, if anyone ever manages it.... It is the highest achievement in academic circles for a scientist to disprove a falsifiable theory that had until that point been presumed to be true. It is how science progresses, and how it always will! :) "The Darwinists are not well versed in the cosmological arguments for the existence of God. ...[snip]... one necessary being, who created all other contingent beings." -Are you well versed in the eastern view of the world having a beginingless beginning? From that point of view your comments are absurd, so there are large proportions of Asian people that would find your comments a bit like crazy ravings. Not saying that's my point of view, but just thought I'd mention. "Theism is just not an option, no matter what the evidence may show." - If science start using the 'God dun it' hypothesis, no more progress would be made, as I'm sure you've heard before, the 'God of the Gaps' is getting smaller and smaller. Just saying. Reading the rest of your post you are steeped in mono-theistic thinking. I'd suggest you expand your horizons a bit. When I use the term 'falsifiable theory' I'm referring to a theory that has been formulated in a way that if it is untrue, it can be easily proved as such. Stated that already, but just thought I'd make sure, otherwise it could be read a bit wrong. lolNnoel
April 9, 2009
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@saywhatyouwill in [2] You say they are only ever worried about people questioning evolution, and not all the other scientific facts you mention, but only evolution makes people question what they believe (even tho some believe evolution poses no threat to their christianity), and only evolution has to be defended from people trying to manipulate the facts to suit their own agenda's. This may sound like I'm already defending an 'agenda', but as always, the agenda you would accuse me of defending has been scientifically articulated to be readily falsifiable if it is untrue, and as it has not yet been falsified... but what falsifiable theory supports the orriginal 'agenda' I brought up (that of creationism and ID). These people speaking out against perceived threats to the education standards are doing so because they believe science teachers will use those standards to push 'ideas of theories' onto students who are not yet ready to evaluate what is a falsifiable theory and what is just pseudo-science. Perhaps all science starts as pseudo-science, so that is not a veiled insult, it is just to say is it what it is.Nnoel
April 9, 2009
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The "problem" is if students start analyzing the evidence then the teachers will be in trouble. Why? Because the students will start asking questions neither they nor anyone else can answer.Joseph
April 9, 2009
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Domoman, Your biology teacher is right; religion should be kept out of science classes. Most religious people would agree with that - they don't want non-believers teaching their children about religion. You are also right in that he misunderstands the issue. It's not that religious implications should be kept out of science classes - otherwise the religious implications of Darwinism could not be taught - and they most certainly are taught. Science classes should be taught on the basis of following evidence wherever it may lead. This is why some academics are pushing for academic freedom - you can't have an environment where you are free to follow the evidence and critically analyse in order for the evidence to lead where it may, when the religious implications of one theory are mandated to be taught as the gospel truth. The Darwinists are not on the side of academic freedom - they are on the side of suppression, because they stand to lose a whole lot if they are proven wrong. This is why they paint the issue as a "creationism in the classroom" issue, rather than as an academic freedom one. If they can convince the public that it's simply a creationism issue, they've already won in legal courts and in the court of public opinion. However, they are already losing that argument in the court of public opinion, because they aren't convincing the public that it's a creationism issue, which it isn't. Now regarding your question about chance: It takes faith to be an atheist. Atheism is logically absurd - therefore to believe that no gods exist requires faith; faith in chance as you have observed. All the chance in the world required for evolution is not enought for evolution to have occurred in the way the Darwinists claim it has. It requires a miraculous amount of chance IMHO, which is essentially trusting in something that is absurd. The Darwinists are not well versed in the cosmological arguments for the existence of God. If they were, they would see the error of their thinking. One cannot traverse an actual infinite. Since this is so, and unplanned evolution implies the traversing of an actual infinite, then the idea of a necessary being, or first cause becomes much more reasonable. There's one necessary being, who created all other contingent beings. Now ID does not go into this area, because it deals with metaphysics, and is not scientific in the strict naturalistic sense. But because the Darwinists fail to grasp this, they delve into absurd notions of undirected, unplanned random mutations without a blueprint as an explanation for how we got to the advanced complexity we now see in ourselves and other complex beings. It's not that they have evidence for the Darwinian process, it's that they have to convince others that they have the evidence, because they "cannot allow a divine foot in the door." Theism is just not an option, no matter what the evidence may show. Now I ask you to think about this - because let's assume that as a result of this academic freedom legislation, a whole lot of students of biology are led to conclude that there is a god based on the evidence. What sort of god would such a student accept? Would it be the irrational god of postmodernism, who allows your belief is as good as mine, no matter how contradictory? Would it be the literalist god who cannot appear any different than that revealed in a narrow 19th Century interpretation of the bible? Or would it be a logical god, who divinely interacts with his creation and continually leaves evidence for other mysteries to be solved because he trusts in the inquisitive nature of his highest creature? The god that the Darwinists fear is one that is like either of the first two examples, which is a strawman god if one ever existed. But they believe that the god of the first two examples is the only one that is believed in.CannuckianYankee
April 8, 2009
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Domoman, Or Deep time or its affects.Collin
April 8, 2009
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CannuckianYankee, You're post @ 3 made me wonder: You ever get the idea that those who believe that chance can solve anything over enough time almost believe in an invisible deity? They blame those of ID and religious beliefs for believing in something they can't see, but I'm pretty sure they can't see "chance" either.Domoman
April 8, 2009
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My college biology teacher enjoys reading newspaper articles before he starts teaching the class and I the regular curriculum, and one day he ran across the issue about Texas and the teaching the Theory of Evolution. I'm not sure if he misunderstood the article or if the article misunderstood the issue, but their conclusion was the same: a group of people are trying to bring "Creationism" into the Texas classrooms. However, that's not the case: people are simply trying to give students the freedom to think critically and analyze the Theory of Evolution rather than be taught it dogmatically. It has nothing to do with bringing "Creationism" into the classroom. (Indeed, bringing "Creationism" into the classroom has been an issue before, but in this case, in Texas, it is not the issue.) I raised my hand because I wanted to clarify the issue, but he didn't see me (he wasn't doing it on purpose as he doesn't have a problem with me, he just didn't realize my hand was up). My biology teacher is a cool guy and he even called faith (what he deems is held by those of religious beliefs) a beautiful thing, but he thinks it should be left separate from science which should be objective rather than subjective. (I guess this implies that religious beliefs are subjective? lol) Still, it's unfortunate that he seems to misunderstand the issue.Domoman
April 8, 2009
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Louisianna, now Texas - buncha gun-totin', bible-believin' Jesus-praisin' fundamentalists if you ask me. Never happen in the Education Week-readin' pseudo-science rejectin' establishment-worshippin' Northeast.CannuckianYankee
April 8, 2009
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The idea that the earth is flat, the idea that the sun revolves around the earth, the idea that the theory of gravity is wrong. Why aren't scientists ever worried that students will believe these things when they are allowed to analyze, evaluate and critique? We are constantly told that the theory of evolution is as solid a fact as any you will find in science, yet it's the only theory that scientists seem to feel they need to protect at all costs from being objectively studied in the classroom. I can't help wondering why that might be...saywhatyouwill
April 8, 2009
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"Supporters of 'intelligent design,' he noted, have claimed that scientific evidence supports their view—an assertion rejected by the vast majority of scientists." Question-begging, arguments from consensus: A vast majority of ID supporters find this kind of argumentation problematic.CannuckianYankee
April 8, 2009
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