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More Questions for Evolutionists

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In this Nature Alert article, we find out that sponges, present as early as 635 million years ago in the fossil record, have 18,000 genes, among which are genes for apoptosis, that is, cell death. Now here is a creature that has “a simple body plan lacking organs, muscles and nerve cells.” Let’s remember that the number of human genes, prior to whole genome analysis, was thought to be at least 100,000. With early genomic results in, this number was revised downward. Today it stands at 25,000—and shrinking! (There are arguments for lowering it still) So the lowly sponge—no nerves, no muscles, simple as you can get—has around 65% the number of genes as humans.

Well, all of this presents problems for Darwinism.

First of all, we have 65% of the gene number of humans in little, old sponges—an organism that appears as far back as 635 million years ago, about as old as you can get [except for bacteria]. This kind of demolishes Darwin’s argument about what he called the pre-Silurian (pre-Cambrian). 635 mya predates both the Cambrian AND the Edicarian, which comes before the Cambrian (i.e., the pre-Cambrian) IOW, out of nowhere, 18,000 animal genes. Darwinian gradualism is dealt a death blow here (unless you’re a ‘true believer”!). Here’s a quote: “It means there was an elaborate machinery in place that already had some function. What I want to know now is what were all these genes doing prior to the advent of sponge.” (Charles Marshall, director of the University of California Museum of Paleontology in Berkeley.) I want to know, too!

Secondly, unexpectedly, this “multicellular creature” had an apparatus for ‘individual’ cell death—the cell had a way of bringing about it’s own death—prior to cells having the ability to attack harmful cells outside of themselves. So, somehow, before multicellularity cells decided they should kill themselves [Since apoptosis, i.e., cell death, ‘evolved’ as a defense mechanism, then why didn’t the ability to destroy harmful cells exterior to the cell itself also ‘evolve’ at the same time? IOW, the cells forming the ‘first’ multicellular organism, brought this capacity with them]. Remember that Darwin states that if anything could be found present in an organism that was harmful to it, then this would be a disproof of his theory. Yet cells are capable of ‘suicide’ prior to there being a need for it. It can hardly be argued that a cell’s ability to kill itself is good for it. But I’ll bet there’s a few Darwinists who will want to convince us otherwise.

Finally, just as a FYI, here’s a PhysOrg item about ” . . .evidence [supporting] the hypothesis that human cells have the widespread ability to copy RNA as well as DNA.” This isn’t just copying of non-coding portions of DNA, but actual copying of RNA molecules within the cell. (What was that they were saying about the “Central Dogma of Molecular Biology”?) Taken together with the above observations, all of this points in the direction of cellular RNA being a communication system for various parts of non-coding DNA and cellular proteins (the coded portion of DNA), as well as the likely communication medium between DNA and the environment (we already know that environmental factors can result in RNA which then has inherited effects–briefly mentioned in the news item). It becomes increasingly clearer just how rather fundamental, and relatively insignifcant, proteins are in the big scheme of things.

Let the discussion begin!!

Comments
@Pav: Heinrich isn't playing the software - he is played by the moderation process: A comment which is approved after being moderated will be appear with the timestamp of its entering into the moderation process, not the completing of this - sometimes quite long - procedure. Most probably, Heinrich was the first to comment (there could be others, still held in moderation - or not approved). So, it wasn't foul play at all, but just the effects of a cumbersome procedure some of us have to endure.DiEb
August 12, 2010
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Joseph,
My own advocate: 4- Common design- using similar or identical components in totally different structures or applications
Isn't that just saying that the designer used the same components over again? So what? Why is not nested hierarchies a more probable explanation? Unless we assume that the designer really is a god with unlimited magic powers, nothing about ID makes sense.Cabal
August 12, 2010
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Somehow a ‘unicellular’ organism ‘knows’ that it should kill itself for the good of the clone. It must be filled with ‘unselfish’ genes.
For slime molds we actually know quite a bit about that "somehow".
Secondly, if you wish to posit multicellularity as prior to sponges, then why didn’t the ability for cells to kill the cells adjacent to it develop? It seems like both of these abilities would aid multicellular critters. So why did one develop, and not the other?
Because the cell death pathways sponges have were enough for it to control cancerous growth?Heinrich
August 12, 2010
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And I wrote that note at the top of your post. Why is it in number one position? Are you playing with the software here. I hope the administrator is reading this. If you have, you should be bounced out of here.
Ouch. The reason my post was at no. 1 is that it was the first one submitted. But I'm in moderation, and it was held for a long time. IOW, you're threatening to ban me for being in moderation!Heinrich
August 11, 2010
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NormO For you and the others that want to argue lifeforms prior to the sponge, here’s a couple of quotes: Telltale molecular fragments teased out of ancient sediment show that sponges existed some 635 million years ago — the oldest evidence for metazoans (multicellular animals) on Earth. As the earliest branching lineage from our last common ancestor, sponges can tell us a lot about what is needed to make an animal," says geneticist Mansi Srivastava, the paper's lead author, now a postdoc at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge. Bacteria existed prior to, or alongside, unicellular life. Unicellular organisms are protozoans. The first forms of multicellular life are the Metazoans. And sponges are the first. As is always the case with anything touching upon the Darwinian paradigm---there are NO intermediates. Alas.PaV
August 11, 2010
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Peupel:
PaV, there is nothing in the article you quote to support your claims.
Really? So when Charles Marshall said, “What I want to know now is what were all these genes doing prior to the advent of sponge,” that doesn’t support my contention that the sponge, having such a simple body plan, and having arose first (in the article they talk about the sponge being the “first lineage” that broke off from our LCA), demolishes the Darwinian myth of ‘gradualism’? Really?
The best experts in the field were forecasting 20-30,000 genes human many years ago.
Was that before they were predicting 100,000 human genes, or after?
It is not a problem for evolutionary theory if sponges have a similar number of genes to humans.
Nothing is a problem for people who want to deny, distort, and turn upside down, anything that conflicts with their hypothesis. Remember, it’s all what the meaning of ‘is’ is.
The sophistication of sponges shows that they had ancestors we have not discovered yet. We may never discover them as records of early life are hard to find. What is the problem here?
Ah, yes, the wonders of Darwinian logic. We may NEVER discover the sponges’ ancestors; but in the meantime, let’s just presume they were there. As you would say: “What is the problem here?”
Surely you’re not claiming this as evidence that sponges came into being suddenly and fully formed, are you?
Do you have any evidence that suggests it didn’t? You surely don’t have any evidence that it happened gradually.
Your statements about apoptosis are a misunderstanding of the article.
I don’t think so. Maybe it’s the author who has a misunderstanding, being blinded by Darwinism as he seems to be.PaV
August 11, 2010
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Heinrich [1]:
This is a non sequitur: Secondly, unexpectedly, this “multicellular creature” had an apparatus for ‘individual’ cell death—the cell had a way of bringing about it’s own death—prior to cells having the ability to attack harmful cells outside of themselves. So, somehow, before multicellularity cells decided they should kill themselves. Sponges are multicellular, and presumably some of their ancestors were. So apoptosis could have evolved after multicellularity began, and the evolution of sponges. And theoretically, apoptosis can evolve in unicellular organisms if they reproduce clonally (actually you don’t need that, but clonality makes it a whole lot easier). It can happen if it helps clones survive. I guess slime moulds are an example of this.
Well, first of all, thank you for fulfilling my prediction. According to Darwinism, life comes from nowhere, and then develops the ability to kill itself. Wonderful! How logical! Somehow a ‘unicellular’ organism ‘knows’ that it should kill itself for the good of the clone. It must be filled with ‘unselfish’ genes. Secondly, if you wish to posit multicellularity as prior to sponges, then why didn’t the ability for cells to kill the cells adjacent to it develop? It seems like both of these abilities would aid multicellular critters. So why did one develop, and not the other? So we KNOW that the cell’s ability to kill its neighbor when needed DID NOT arise before the sponge simply because sponges don’t have this ability. Further, if a cell decides to kill another one because something is wrong with it, that makes Darwinians sense since it is simply protecting its life, which is not the case when a cell decides to commit hare kare. So, if the more logically Darwinian ability didn’t arise before, nor during, sponges, then why do you simply presume that an ability which is contrary to Darwinian hypothesizing arose prior to sponges? Is it just one of those things? And, here’s what you say: “Sponges are multicellular, and presumably some of their ancestors were. So apoptosis could have evolved after multicellularity began, and [before] the evolution of sponges.” So your argument rests on a presumption and a hypothetical. Wonderful! Here’s something similar: “If I had a million dollars, presumably I’d be on vacation instead of being in front of the computer.” And I wrote that note at the top of your post. Why is it in number one position? Are you playing with the software here. I hope the administrator is reading this. If you have, you should be bounced out of here.PaV
August 11, 2010
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tjm: Three billion years is not enough time to evolve all those genes? The evidence suggests that life on Earth arose some 3.5 billion years ago and that sponges appeared over 600 million years ago. That leaves a very long time in between to evolve all those genes, as well as all that intricate cellular "machinery". Three billion years is a very long time.NormO
August 11, 2010
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Joseph, You said: 2- Today’s sponges are just as derived as today’s humans- meaning the genomes of today’s sponges (spongi? lol) is not the same as the spongilos of eras long lost. This is an assumption on your part. You are assuming evolution in order to claim this is not a problem for evolution. Sponges claimed to be VERY OLD have been found that are very close to present day sponges. So, if they are really as old as claimed, this would be a problem for evolutionists because there doesn't seem to be enough time to evolve all those genes. tjtjm
August 11, 2010
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Peepul I like this question you asked PaV: 'Surely you’re not claiming this as evidence that sponges came into being suddenly and fully formed, are you?' But Peepul it is not solely Design Theorists that notice this discontinuity. In fact some prominent evolutionary materialist have noticed the 'suddenness' pattern as well: I like this following paper for though it is materialistic in its outlook at least Eugene Koonin, unlike many materialists, is brutally honest with the genetic evidence we now have. The Biological Big Bang model for the major transitions in evolution - Eugene V Koonin - Background: "Major transitions in biological evolution show the same pattern of sudden emergence of diverse forms at a new level of complexity. The relationships between major groups within an emergent new class of biological entities are hard to decipher and do not seem to fit the tree pattern that, following Darwin's original proposal, remains the dominant description of biological evolution. The cases in point include the origin of complex RNA molecules and protein folds; major groups of viruses; archaea and bacteria, and the principal lineages within each of these prokaryotic domains; eukaryotic supergroups; and animal phyla. In each of these pivotal nexuses in life's history, the principal "types" seem to appear rapidly and fully equipped with the signature features of the respective new level of biological organization. No intermediate "grades" or intermediate forms between different types are detectable; http://www.biology-direct.com/content/2/1/21 Biological Big Bangs - Origin Of Life and Cambrian - Dr. Fazale Rana - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4284466 It should be noted that Dr. Koonin tries to account for the origination of the massive amounts of functional information, required for the Cambrian Explosion, and other 'explosions', by trying to access an 'unelucidated and undirected' mechanism of Quantum Mechanics called 'Many Worlds'. Besides Koonin ignoring the fact that Quantum Events, on a whole, are strictly restricted to the transcendent universal laws/constants of the universe, including and especially the second law of thermodynamics, for as far back in time in the universe as we can 'observe' these 'laws' in action, it is also fair to note, in criticism to Koonin’s MWI scenario, that appealing to the undirected infinite probabilistic resource, of the quantum mechanics of the Many Worlds scenario, actually greatly increases the amount of totally chaotic information one would expect to see generated 'randomly' in the fossil record. In fact the Many Worlds scenario actually greatly increases the likelihood we would witness total chaos surrounding us,,, as the last five minutes of this following video points out: The Absurdity Of The Many Worlds Hypothesis - William Lane Craig - Last 5 minutes of this video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4784630 Though Koonin is correct to recognize that the infinite probabilistic resource of 'Quantum Mechanics' does not absolutely preclude the sudden appearance of massive amounts of functional information in the fossil record, he is very incorrect to disregard the 'Logos' of John 1:1 needed to correctly specify the 'controlled mechanism of implementation' for the massive amounts of complex functional and specified information witnessed abruptly and mysteriously appearing in the fossil record. i.e. He must sufficiently account for the 'cause' for the 'effect' he wants to explain. And as Stephen Meyer clearly points out, the only known cause now in operation sufficient to explain the generation of massive amounts of functional information is intelligence: Stephen C. Meyer - The Scientific Basis For Intelligent Design - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4104651 This following paper corroborates Koonin's observation of irreconcilable differences being found in the genetic evidence with Darwinian evolution: Why Darwin was wrong about the (genetic) tree of life: - 21 January 2009 Excerpt: Syvanen recently compared 2000 genes that are common to humans, frogs, sea squirts, sea urchins, fruit flies and nematodes. In theory, he should have been able to use the gene sequences to construct an evolutionary tree showing the relationships between the six animals. He failed. The problem was that different genes told contradictory evolutionary stories. This was especially true of sea-squirt genes. Conventionally, sea squirts - also known as tunicates - are lumped together with frogs, humans and other vertebrates in the phylum Chordata, but the genes were sending mixed signals. Some genes did indeed cluster within the chordates, but others indicated that tunicates should be placed with sea urchins, which aren't chordates. "Roughly 50 per cent of its genes have one evolutionary history and 50 per cent another," Syvanen says. ."We've just annihilated the tree of life. It's not a tree any more, it's a different topology entirely," says Syvanen. "What would Darwin have made of that?" http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126921.600-why-darwin-was-wrong-about-the-tree-of-life.html As a point of interest, I would like to point out that this, 'annihilation' of Darwin's genetic tree of life, article came out on the very day that Dr. Hillis, a self-proclaimed 'world leading expert' on the genetic tree of life, testified before the Texas State Board Of Education that the genetic tree of life overwhelmingly confirmed gradual Darwinian evolution. One could almost argue it was 'Intelligently Designed' for him to exposed as a fraud on that particular day of his testimony instead of just any other day of the year.bornagain77
August 11, 2010
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PaV, there is nothing in the article you quote to support your claims. The best experts in the field were forecasting 20-30,000 genes human many years ago. It is not a problem for evolutionary theory if sponges have a similar number of genes to humans. The sophistication of sponges shows that they had ancestors we have not discovered yet. We may never discover them as records of early life are hard to find. What is the problem here? Surely you're not claiming this as evidence that sponges came into being suddenly and fully formed, are you? Your statements about apoptosis are a misunderstanding of the article.Peepul
August 11, 2010
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I have the impression that most of the TE’s simply suspect that the Creator endowed his material creation with the ability to ‘find’—beyond all imaginable odds—correct combinations of nucleotide bases, lipid structures, etc., that ‘life’ needs.
This view does not preclude a design inference. TEs are design theorists when it comes right down to it, they just don't want to admit it for political reasons. Fine-tuning is a design argument. In fact it's a specified complexity design argument.tragic mishap
August 11, 2010
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635 mya predates both the Cambrian AND the Edicarian, which comes before the Cambrian (i.e., the pre-Cambrian) IOW, out of nowhere, 18,000 animal genes. Darwinian gradualism is dealt a death blow here (unless you’re a ‘true believer”!). If life first appeared some 3.5 billion years ago, approximately 3 billion years before these sponges appear, how is that "out of nowhere"? I mean, presumably these genes could have arisen gradually over those many hundreds of millions of years.NormO
August 11, 2010
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PaV, I don't think that TE's will be convinced by anything. I think that they take their position because they are Christian but want to be aligned with the biggest bully on the block which is not ID. Their position is kind of like one that my friend took concerning free will. He said that God predestinates all of our choices AND we have free will. I didn't understand it, but I didn't mock him because I know that I have strange beliefs too. TE's just seem to believe that God did it AND it happened in natural, undirected ways. How do you contradict that?Collin
August 11, 2010
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tgpeeler: It's interesting that you appeal to first principles when it comes to the true believers. Fr. Stanley Jaki took that very position and was rather dismissive of the ID approach. In terms of the fruitfulness of this approach---that is, will it prove more effective than the ID approach in changing minds/being persuasive---it has struck me lately that the tilma of Juan Diego is proof positive that some supernatural agency was operative in our world. The best of evidence supports this. So, if the true believers won't be convinced by that, they won't be convinced by anything. Yet, OTOH, you have theistic evolutionists like Ken Miller: what about them? There, I think, it is only probabilistic arguments that will work. I have the impression that most of the TE's simply suspect that the Creator endowed his material creation with the ability to 'find'---beyond all imaginable odds---correct combinations of nucleotide bases, lipid structures, etc., that 'life' needs. And, so, even probabilistic arguments won't likely work. So, you see, I'm a pessimist. However, I think in the end science itself will answer these questions. The remarkable work now being done, extrapolated into the future, will, I feel, result in such an organized entirety of evidence pointing in the direction of design that is will simply not be reasonable to think otherwise. So, maybe I'm an optimist! :)PaV
August 11, 2010
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tgpeeler, bornagain, Thanks for the interesting info/thoughts!Collin
August 11, 2010
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Collin @ 7 "I wonder if anyone has written a book that stacks the evidence against evolution into a comprehensive framework that estimates the probabilities involved as it goes along." These calculations, although overwhelmingly compelling to a rational thinker, never seem to make a dent in the true believers. They are apparently impervious to reason. So in an effort to attack their argument at the level of first principles, I propose the following arguments. If naturalism( including materialism/physicalism - N,M,P) was true, then the laws of physics could explain everything. (This is necessarily true as that is part of the definition of N,M,P. Thus the law of identity is used in the antecedent and consequent.) But the laws of physics cannot explain language (because physics has nothing to say about symbols and rules - only the interactions of sub-atomic particles in energy fields). Therefore, naturalism is false. This is a necessary conclusion. It cannot not be true if my premises are true. My premises are true. Therefore the N,M,P argument should be over. It can be taken one step further. If neo-darwinian evolutionary theory is true then ALL of life can be ultimately explained by the laws of physics. But the laws of physics cannot explain the genetic code/language or biological information. (nor any other language or information - see first argument) Therefore, neo-darwinian evolutionary theory is false. Not only that, it cannot possibly be true.tgpeeler
August 10, 2010
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Collin, you can thank Dr. John Sanford, in his book Genetic Entropy, for the polyfunctional equals polyconstrained idea. As far a sequential book of probabilities from universe to humans, I have gathered evidence in a somewhat sequential way as you suggested here: Intelligent Design - The Anthropic Hypothesis http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/2009/10/intelligent-design-anthropic-hypothesis_19.html the sequence, from universe to humans, picks up about a fifth of the way down the page. In fact I try to answer these following questions: The following are some basic questions that need to be answered, to find if either the anthropic hypothesis or some materialistic hypothesis is correct. I. What evidence is found for the universe's ability to support life? II. What evidence is found for the earths ability to support life? III. What evidence is found for the first life on earth? IV. What evidence is found for the appearance of all species of life on earth, and is man the last species to appear on earth? V. What evidence is found for God's personal involvement with man? As you can see Collin, the 'book' could be consolidated greatly so as to focus strictly on probabilities as you suggested.bornagain77
August 10, 2010
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Bornagain, That polyconstrained complexity idea is cool. Thanks for sharing. I wonder if anyone has written a book that stacks the evidence against evolution into a comprehensive framework that estimates the probabilities involved as it goes along. For example, after the first chapter, entitled, "Fine tuning of the universe, except for solar system" the probability equals 1 x 10 ^ -100. Then chapter 2, "Fine tuning of solar system" chance of life 1 x 10 ^ 250 (or whatever). Chapter 3 Irreducible complexity ... etc etc etc.Collin
August 10, 2010
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First, my apologies to Dr. Cornelius Hunter, since he's already posted something on this sponge evidence. Second Opinion: The points you are making only point out what has been proposed by ID advocates a long time: namely, it's not the genes that drive evolution or complexity; rather it is regulatory networks, networks which function in a way similar to computer programming. (And, of course, computer programming is a very evident form of design.) Joseph: Nice to see you back here. In the first place, you have not addressed the rather severe challenges this poses to Darwinian thinking. This absence is telling. As to your particular points:
1 - The number of genes has been rendered moot due to alternative (gene) splicing which can the few and make many different products.
This fact further underscores the point that genes play a minor role in evolution given that we know that the splicing removes the non-coding sections called introns which seem to clearly be involved in regulation of the alternately spliced protein products.
2- Today’s sponges are just as derived as today’s humans- meaning the genomes of today’s sponges (spongi? lol) is not the same as the spongilos of eras long lost.
Well, you have one of two alternatives: either you can say that the genes needed for vertebrate evolution were present long before they were needed; or, you can say that the sponge, once evolved, continued to add genes to its genome despite their not having any function. I'd hate to have to choose between those two options.
3- Most of the genes we have don’t have anything to do with us being an animal- they are for basic cellular stuff.
Well said. I wholeheartedly agree--if that is indeed the case. But, again, how does Darwin explain the abrupt appearance of 18,000 genes analogous to vertebrates 635 mya? This destroys his theory. And this isn't just hyperbole. As I have often said, Darwin would not be a Darwinist today.
My own advocate: 4- Common design- using similar or identical components in totally different structures or applications
I'm not sure of your point here. It seems to sound like how I, and I suspect many others here at UD, envision the way things actually happen(ed).PaV
August 10, 2010
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semi off topic from Science Daily: Scientists Map All Mammalian Gene Interactions - August 2010 Excerpt: Mammals, including humans, have roughly 20,000 different genes.,,, They found a network of more than 7 million interactions encompassing essentially every one of the genes in the mammalian genome. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100809142044.htm This is definitely a polyfunctional situation which further isolates the generation of functional information by random processes: Poly-Functional Complexity equals Poly-Constrained Complexity http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMjdoZmd2emZncQ DNA - Evolution Vs. Polyfuctionality - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4614519 K´necting The Dots: Modeling Functional Integration In Biological Systems Excerpt: “If an engineer modifies the length of the piston rods in an internal combustion engine, but does not modify the crankshaft accordingly, the engine won’t start. Similarly, processes of development are so tightly integrated temporally and spatially that one change early in development will require a host of other coordinated changes in separate but functionally interrelated developmental processes downstream”,,,”those genes which govern major changes, the very stuff of macroevolution, apparently do not vary, or vary only to the detriment of the organism” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/k%C2%B4necting-the-dots-modeling-functional-integration-in-biological-systems/ Insight into cells could lead to new approach to medicines Excerpt: Scientists expected to find simple links between individual proteins but were surprised to find that proteins were inter-connected in a complex web. Dr Victor Neduva, of the University of Edinburgh, who took part in the study, said: "Our studies have revealed an intricate network of proteins within cells that is much more complex than we previously thought. http://www.physorg.com/news196402353.htmlbornagain77
August 10, 2010
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Devil's Advocate: 1- The number of genes has been rendered moot due to alternative (gene) splicing which can the few and make many different products. 2- Today's sponges are just as derived as today's humans- meaning the genomes of today's sponges (spongi? lol) is not the same as the spongilos of eras long lost. 3- Most of the genes we have don't have anything to do with us being an animal- they are for basic cellular stuff My own advocate: 4- Common design- using similar or identical components in totally different structures or applicationsJoseph
August 10, 2010
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PaV, this article is of interest to your article, Non-coding RNAs and eukaryotic evolution - a personal view - John Mattick - July 2010 Excerpt: In fact almost every time you functionally test a non-coding RNA that looks interesting because it's differentially expressed in one system or another, you get functionally indicative data coming out. But the compelling point is that regulatory RNAs provide an explanation as to why complexity doesn't scale with the number of protein-coding genes. It was originally assumed that as complexity increased there would be more and more such genes - before the genome was sequenced there was speculation that humans might have a hundred thousand or more, and it was a huge shock that it's much less, and doesn't scale with complexity. But there are very large numbers of long non-coding RNAs, so this is where the real genetic scaling has occurred. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2905358/ ,,,,,,But what will evolutionists do without their beloved "Junk DNA?" 8)bornagain77
August 10, 2010
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Just two quick comments: 1) Already in the 80s people had estimated the number of genes in humans to be around 30,000. The higher estimates were published later. http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2010/06/false-history-and-number-of-genes.html 2) There are quite a few organisms that have more genes than humans. Namely the rice, discovered in 2002. Humans have fewer genes than rice Reporter Issue 120, 5 July 2002 http://www.imperial.ac.uk/college.asp?P=3509second opinion
August 10, 2010
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PaV, Thanks for this post. Dave Scott brought up the "front-loading" issue nearly 2 years ago here and I have been surprised that it has not gotten more attention at UD and other ID sites, seems like it deserves much more. Glad to see your post and David Tyler's a few days ago.Granville Sewell
August 10, 2010
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Heinrich: Yours was not the first post here. How is it that you now have top billing. Are you fiddling with the sytem? This is a non sequitur:
Secondly, unexpectedly, this “multicellular creature” had an apparatus for ‘individual’ cell death—the cell had a way of bringing about it’s own death—prior to cells having the ability to attack harmful cells outside of themselves. So, somehow, before multicellularity cells decided they should kill themselves
Sponges are multicellular, and presumably some of their ancestors were. So apoptosis could have evolved after multicellularity began, and the evolution of sponges. And theoretically, apoptosis can evolve in unicellular organisms if they reproduce clonally (actually you don't need that, but clonality makes it a whole lot easier). It can happen if it helps clones survive. I guess slime moulds are an example of this.Heinrich
August 10, 2010
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