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Most Forms of the Argument From Evil Are Incoherent

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In a comment to another post StephenB noted that atheists often argue as follows: “evil exists; therefore God does not exist.” That is true. Yet, the incoherence of the argument should be immediately obvious. Let’s see why.

The argument to which Stephen alluded is an abbreviation of a more formal argument that goes like this:

Major Premise: If an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being (i.e., God) existed, he would not allow evil to exist.

Minor Premise: Evil exists

Conclusion: Therefore, God does not exist.

The problem with the argument is in the word “evil.” What does it mean? If metaphysical naturalism is true – if particles in motion are the only things that exist – then the word “evil” must necessarily have no “objective” meaning. In other words, if there is no transcendent moral lawgiver, there is no transcendent moral law. It follows that all moral choices are inherently subjective, choices that we choose because evolution has conditioned us to do so. Therefore, for the atheist, the word “evil” means “that which I personally do not prefer because evolution has conditioned me not to prefer it.”

Now, let’s reexamine the argument, but instead of using the word “evil” let us amplify it by using the definition.

Major Premise: If an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being (i.e., God) existed, he would not allow that which I personally do not prefer because evolution has conditioned me not to prefer it to exist.

Minor Premise: That which I personally do not prefer because evolution has conditioned me not to prefer it exists.

Conclusion: Therefore, God does not exist.

The argument in this form is plainly blithering nonsense.

We see then that the atheist makes an illogical leap. His argument is true only if it is false. The word “evil” has objective meaning only if God exists. Therefore, when the atheist is making his argument from the existence of evil he is necessarily doing one of two things:

1. Arguing in the nonsensical manner I illustrated; or

2. Judging the non-existence of God using a standard that does not exist unless God in fact exists.

Either way, the argument fails.

More problematic for the theist (at least theists who believe God is omnibenevolent) is Ivan Karamazov. Readers will remember that Ivan’s argument took the following form:

Definition: We will call the “omnipotent being” God

Major Premise: If God is omnibenevolent he would not allow evil to exist.

Minor Premise: Evil exists

Conclusion: Therefore, God is not omnibenevolent.

Keep in mind the difference between a valid argument and a sound argument. A valid argument is an argument in which the conclusion follows logically from the premises. Valid arguments do not necessarily result in true conclusions. They result in logical conclusions. An argument is said to be “sound” when it is valid AND its premises are true. A sound argument results in conclusions that are both logical and true.

The first argument that I set forth is not even valid. Ivan’s argument is a better argument in this sense – it is valid, meaning the conclusion at least has the virtue of following from the premises.

But is Ivan’s argument sound? That is another question altogether, the answer to which is beyond the scope of this post. Suffice at this point to say that Christians believe Ivan’s major premise is not true. They believe an omnibenevolent God might allow evil to exist in order to give the gift of free will to the beings he creates.

Comments
Nice conversation It seems we may be missing an important point, our lack of knowledge. The argument should go this way: 1 - God is all good, has all knowledge, and is all powerful 2 - God is in charge 3 - We are not all good, do not have all knowledge, and are not all powerful 4 - Things that we see happening appear to us to be evil 5 - But God is all good . . . and (still) in charge 6 - Therefore, Ultimately whatever happens must be for the good. We, in our lack of knowledge are just not able to understand at this time. Happy Advent!!!GCS
December 10, 2013
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@ CentralScrutinizer,
Box: isn’t it like saying that you know that there is no such thing as healthy smoking, but that you believe that Marlboro cigarets are actually healthy?
CentralScrutinizer: How is that analogous?
Allow me to spell it out for you: You know that there is no such thing as [objective morality], but that you believe that [your morality] is actually [best]? IOW, you know that all moral concepts are equal - since there is no good and bad - but you believe that your moral concept is superior?Box
December 10, 2013
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Box: isn’t it like saying that you know that there is no such thing as healthy smoking, but that you believe that Marlboro cigarets are actually healthy?
How is that analogous? I have come to certain moral beliefs because of my experiences of life and by considering various viewpoints. I cannot prove, nor do I know that my morality is the best one. But I believe it is. What else can I believe except what I believe?CentralScrutinizer
December 10, 2013
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StephenB,
CS: It’s just the way reality is. Might makes right no matter what your moral beliefs are. You can believe whatever you want, but without the power to enforce it what good is it? SB: You are not really answering my question. According to your subjective moral code, whose morality, among the millions of subjective moralities all competing for control, should be the one that society adopts and enforces by rule of law?
I answered that. You quoted it...
CS: I think mine should. Duh. And I would fight to enforce it. SB: Well, of course. You think your morality should prevail. And the sadist thinks his morality should prevail–and he will fight to enforce it. And the masochists, thieves, perverts, adulterers, and baby killers all think that their individual moralities should prevail–and they will fight to enforce it.
Thankfully, most people do not agree with them.
You seem to be saying that the only fair way to settle the matter is to let the most powerful decide.
No. Fairness has nothing to do with it. I'm saying that power is what does, in fact, decide.
That, however, would seem to contradict your earlier statement to the effect that you should be able to decide?
I don't know what you're referring to. I think those that agree with me should prevail. But that what matters in practice is that power decides whose morality is in effect.
CS: I believe the Golden Rule is right and should be followed. However, Might Makes Right is reality, regardless of what I believe is right. It’s idealism vs reality. SB: You are still not grasping my question? Many choose not to follow the Golden rule because their morality differs from that standard.
I find that unfortunate.
SB: Their subjective morality is different from yours. Others think that might makes right is the only morality. If they win, they get to decide societies moral code. Whose morality should prevail?
Again, it doesn't matter whose morality should prevail. (I think mine should, of course.) The point is, power decides whose does prevail.
CS: I never used “should” with respect to a sadist’s morality. The only morality with a “should” attached is the morality I believe in. Duh. SB: No, actually that isn’t true. Morality, by definition, is a statement about [what] should be as opposed to what is. Indeed, all subjective moralities contain their own novel “shoulds.”
Of course. Otherwise they wouldn't be moralities.
SB: The sadist believes that he should be able to make you suffer. You believe that he should not be able to make you suffer. The baby killer believes he should be able to kill babies. Others will argue that the baby killer should not be able to kill babies. All subjective moralities contain a should, just as the Golden Rule contains a should. So, my question persists: How should this matter of deciding whose morality be settled?
How it should be enforced is mere wishful thinking if it doesn't line up with reality. The bottom line is, morality is enforced by power. How else could it be enforced?CentralScrutinizer
December 10, 2013
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Jerry: They must exist to have a meaningful world. Otherwise we would just be going through the motions. We must have doubt to achieve anything meaningful and to exercise free will. And as you comment says, you have doubt. There will always be a divided world. That is how it was set up.
Jerry, as per usual, you are making a lot of sense. Sometimes however, one wishes that less drastic events would suffice.Box
December 10, 2013
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@CentralScrutinizer, isn't it like saying that you know that there is no such thing as healthy smoking, but that you believe that Marlboro cigarets are actually healthy?Box
December 10, 2013
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Central Scrutinizer
It’s just the way reality is. Might makes right no matter what your moral beliefs are. You can believe whatever you want, but without the power to enforce it what good is it?
You are not really answering my question. According to your subjective moral code, whose morality, among the millions of subjective moralities all competing for control, should be the one that society adopts and enforces by rule of law?
I think mine should. Duh. And I would fight to enforce it.
Well, of course. You think your morality should prevail. And the sadist thinks his morality should prevail--and he will fight to enforce it. And the masochists, thieves, perverts, adulterers, and baby killers all think that their individual moralities should prevail--and they will fight to enforce it. You seem to be saying that the only fair way to settle the matter is to let the most powerful decide. That, however, would seem to contradict your earlier statement to the effect that you should be able to decide?
I believe the Golden Rule is right and should be followed. However, Might Makes Right is reality, regardless of what I believe is right. It’s idealism vs reality.
You are still not grasping my question? Many choose not to follow the Golden rule because their morality differs from that standard. Their subjective morality is different from yours. Others think that might makes right is the only morality. If they win, they get to decide societies moral code. Whose morality should prevail? <
I never used “should” with respect to a sadist’s morality. The only morality with a “should” attached is the morality I believe in. Duh.
No, actually that isn't true. Morality, by definition, is a statement about should should be as opposed to what is. Indeed, all subjective moralities contain their own novel "shoulds." The sadist believes that he should be able to make you suffer. You believe that he should not be able to make you suffer. The baby killer believes he should be able to kill babies. Others will argue that the baby killer should not be able to kill babies. All subjective moralities contain a should, just as the Golden Rule contains a should. So, my question persists: How should this matter of deciding whose morality be settled?
Your understanding of my view is muddled. Perhaps that’s my fault.
I have every confidence that we can clear it up.StephenB
December 10, 2013
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Barry
You might as well say, “God does not exist because if he did he would behave in a way that I suppose most people would prefer,” because to you “commonly accepted morality” means nothing more than “that which I suppose most people prefer.” The argument is incoherent.
You play two lawyer's tricks: 1) You put in the weak "prefer" when it is much stronger - something like "find morally unacceptable". 2) You put "I suppose" in there to make it look as if it were an idle conjecture. Actually in extreme cases of evil it is absolutely without doubt. A better rendition is: "God does not exist because if he did he would behave in a way that most people find morally acceptable" You may disagree with this - but it is perfectly coherent. You do understand that incoherent is different from false? I apologise I see you did say in the OP that you think an omnipotent and benevolent God could allow evil to exist - although quite how allowing tsunami's is related to free will beats me.Mark Frank
December 10, 2013
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WJM: First, you are contradicting yourself. You are flatly stating that you believe a morality you know not to be true. You cannot both believe a thing and also know it is not true.
That's a bizzare statement. Belief and certainty are not the same thing. I have beliefs but I don't have certainty about anything except the fact that I am consciously experiencing things. The morality that I hold is the best as far as I can tell. So yes, I believe it is the best. But do I know for fact that is it true? I don't know. There's no way to know.CentralScrutinizer
December 10, 2013
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I believe the Golden Rule is right and should be followed. However, Might Makes Right is reality, regardless of what I believe is right. It’s idealism vs reality.
First, you are contradicting yourself. You are flatly stating that you believe a morality you know not to be true. You cannot both believe a thing and also know it is not true.
It’s idealism vs reality.
You're assuming that idealism is irreconcilable with reality, which has led you to your self-refuting position that you both believe X and know it to not be true at the same time.William J Murray
December 10, 2013
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Central ScrutinizerI’m speaking particularly of opposing evil-doers. It boils down to that for anyone, regardless of what you believe, if you are trying to enforce your will. StephenBYou were responding to my question about whose morality should prevail if there is a conflict of interest between your morality and someone else’s morality. Your answer was, “might makes right.” “What else is there.” That’s very clear. Morality, for you, consists in the most powerful person having his way.
It's not merely "for me." It's just the way reality is. Might makes right no matter what your moral beliefs are. You can believe whatever you want, but without the power to enforce it what good is it?
CS: Jesus believed it [The Golden Rule]. And so do I SB: So, which is it. Do you believe in might makes right or in the Golden Rule. You have not thought the matter through.
I believe the Golden Rule is right and should be followed. However, Might Makes Right is reality, regardless of what I believe is right. It's idealism vs reality.
Earlier, you said that morality can be based on personal desires.
It IS based on personal desires. What else is there?
That is why I asked this question: If the sadist, whose morality is based on his personal desires, wants you to suffer, and Central Scrutinizer, whose morality is also based on his personal desires, does not want to suffer, whose morality should prevail.
I think mine should. Duh. And I would fight to enforce it.
You answered that moral question by saying the most powerful person “should” prevail, as in, “might makes right.”
I never used "should" with respect to that. Might Makes Right is the practical reality despite anyone's desires.
That is because you don’t believe that there is an objective moral code that can settle the matter, which means that it must be settled by raw power.
Disputes are all settled by raw power, despite anyone's particular desires. That's reality.
In other words, if the sadist can win the power struggle, his morality should prevail;
I never used "should" with respect to a sadist's morality. The only morality with a "should" attached is the morality I believe in. Duh.
if you win, you morality should prevail. That was your stated morality.
Your understanding of my view is muddled. Perhaps that's my fault.
So which is it: Do you believe that might makes right or that the Golden Rule makes right. You can’t have it both ways.
Idealism vs reality. I believe in the Golden Rule and I want it to prevail and I will fight to make it so. However, those who disagree may have more power. In the end, power is what matters since those who possess it will enforce their morality.CentralScrutinizer
December 10, 2013
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In my #62, "The cartoon theism of theists/materialists is simply a convenient .." should be " ..of atheists/materialists ..."William J Murray
December 10, 2013
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I find your arguments very compelling with regard to accommodating human free will – especially your post #62. However, with regard to earthquakes, tsunamis and young children dying of cancer … not so much. I don’t see the logical or existential necessity for those things to occur within the context of Christianity.
I'm neither a Christian nor qualified to argue Christian views. My point is that the argument from evil fails against theism in general terms. I doubt it fails against every specific form of theism. In my particular theistic views, the problem of earthquakes, tsunamis and young children dying is easily resolved from the my perspective that we all chose to come here in the first place, fully cognizant of the risks. IOW, no sentient entity is enduring anything they did not know was a very real probability. To come to this world is to sign on for suffering to some degree. It's virtually inescapable.William J Murray
December 10, 2013
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I don’t see the logical or existential necessity for those things to occur within the context of Christianity.
They must exist to have a meaningful world. Otherwise we would just be going through the motions. We must have doubt to achieve anything meaningful and to exercise free will. And as you comment says, you have doubt. There will always be a divided world. That is how it was set up.jerry
December 10, 2013
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Box at comment #68 has presented a more elaborate theodicy argument. The whole argument thing breaks down here
An action is morally wrong, all things considered, if it has a wrongmaking characteristic that is not counterbalanced by any rightmaking characteristics.
Just what is so called evil? and does what we call evil have a purpose? I maintain that all that is called "evil" is essentially trivial compared to other alternatives and it has a purpose that is far, far greater than the temporary suffering endured. So essentially the theodicy argument breaks down when the proponent says that evil exists. At least for Christians and some other faiths it is not a problem. The suffering is finite and temporary (even the favored example of the torturing of infants) and can best be seen as such when considering the suffering we see and experience in this world is relative in nature and limited in scope. (Notice the Stanford example uses the pain of infants. This is an emotional example, not a rational one unless one wants to make the point that all infants or children are innocent. But that is not really the issue.) The suffering has a purpose. We should focus on just what that is and not that the suffering exists. Kairosfocus's comment at #44 gets at most of the issues.jerry
December 10, 2013
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WJM #69, I find your arguments very compelling with regard to accommodating human free will - especially your post #62. However, with regard to earthquakes, tsunamis and young children dying of cancer ... not so much. I don't see the logical or existential necessity for those things to occur within the context of Christianity.Box
December 10, 2013
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Box @68: The flaw in that argument:
In many such cases, no rightmaking characteristics that we are aware of both apply to the case in question, and also are sufficiently serious to counterbalance the relevant wrongmaking characteristic.
We are not aware of the limitations even an omnipotent god operates under in consideration of other existential necessities, like free will and the logically impossible, which would be "sufficiently serious" to counterbalance the "wrongmaking", so this argument has no weight. It assumes that can do what may be logically or existentially impossible, given the circumstances, simply by evoking confusing terminology ("omniscient", "omnibenevolent", "omnipotent").William J Murray
December 10, 2013
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Inductive argument from stanford website: 1. Both the property of intentionally allowing an animal to die an agonizing death in a forest fire, and the property of allowing a child to undergo lingering suffering and eventual death due to cancer, are wrongmaking characteristics of an action, and very serious ones. 2. Our world contains animals that die agonizing deaths in forest fires, and children who undergo lingering suffering and eventual death due to cancer. 3. An omnipotent being could prevent such events, if he knew that those events were about to occur. 4. An omniscient being would know that such events were about to occur. 5. If a being allows something to take place that he knows is about to happen, and which he knows he could prevent, then that being intentionally allows the event in question to occur. Therefore: 6. If there is an omnipotent and omniscient being, then there are cases where he intentionally allows animals to die agonizing deaths in forest fires, and children to undergo lingering suffering and eventual death due to cancer. 7. In many such cases, no rightmaking characteristics that we are aware of both apply to the case in question, and also are sufficiently serious to counterbalance the relevant wrongmaking characteristic. Therefore: 8. If there is an omnipotent and omniscient being, then there are specific cases of such a being's intentionally allowing animals to die agonizing deaths in forest fires, and children to undergo lingering suffering and eventual death due to cancer, that have wrongmaking properties such that there are no rightmaking characteristics that we are aware of that both apply to the cases in question, and that are also sufficiently serious to counterbalance the relevant wrongmaking characteristics. Therefore it is likely that: 9. If there is an omnipotent and omniscient being, then there are specific cases of such a being's intentionally allowing animals to die agonizing deaths in forest fires, and children to undergo lingering suffering and eventual death due to cancer, that have wrongmaking properties such that there are no rightmaking characteristics—including ones that we are not aware of—that both apply to the cases in question, and that are also sufficiently serious to counterbalance the relevant wrongmaking characteristics. 10. An action is morally wrong, all things considered, if it has a wrongmaking characteristic that is not counterbalanced by any rightmaking characteristics. Therefore: 11. If there is an omnipotent and omniscient being, then there are specific cases of such a being's intentionally allowing animals to die agonizing deaths in forest fires, and children to undergo lingering suffering and eventual death due to cancer, that are morally wrong, all things considered. Therefore: 12. If there is an omnipotent and omniscient being, then that being both intentionally refrains from performing certain actions in situations where it is morally wrong to do so, all things considered, and knows that he is doing so. 13. A being who intentionally refrains from performing certain actions in situations where it is morally wrong to do so, all things considered, and knows that he is doing so, is not morally perfect. Therefore: 14. If there is an omnipotent and omniscient being, then that being is not morally perfect. Therefore: 15. There is no omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect being. 16. If God exists, then he is, by definition, an omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect being. Therefore: 17. God does not exist.Box
December 10, 2013
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Central Scrutinizer
I’m speaking particularly of opposing evil-doers. It boils down to that for anyone, regardless of what you believe, if you are trying to enforce your will.
You were responding to my question about whose morality should prevail if there is a conflict of interest between your morality and someone else’s morality. Your answer was, “might makes right.” “What else is there.” That's very clear. Morality, for you, consists in the most powerful person having his way.
Jesus believed it [The Golden Rule]. And so do I
So, which is it. Do you believe in might makes right or in the Golden Rule. You have not thought the matter through. Earlier, you said that morality can be based on personal desires. That is why I asked this question: If the sadist, whose morality is based on his personal desires, wants you to suffer, and Central Scrutinizer, whose morality is also based on his personal desires, does not want to suffer, whose morality should prevail. You answered that moral question by saying the most powerful person “should” prevail, as in, “might makes right.” That is because you don’t believe that there is an objective moral code that can settle the matter, which means that it must be settled by raw power. In other words, if the sadist can win the power struggle, his morality should prevail; if you win, you morality should prevail. That was your stated morality. So which is it: Do you believe that might makes right or that the Golden Rule makes right. You can’t have it both ways.StephenB
December 10, 2013
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Sorry, I forgot to address # 65 to CentralScrutinizer.CannuckianYankee
December 10, 2013
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The basis for the ought is “I don’t want to suffer.” And people with empathy don’t want others to suffer either. “I don’t want to suffer” is purely borne out of a conscious desire. There is no philosophically metaphysical principle beyond that.
Understood. But you have simply minimized evil and suffering to your own personal desires. You haven't eliminated the problem of evil for an atheist. Your not wanting to suffer is an indication that you acknowledge at least some evil in the world - the evil that causes you and others to suffer. Your not wanting to suffer becomes the value judgment, and from your not wanting to suffer you derive your "ought." Answer this then: Why don't you want to suffer? What drives your desire not to? Does evolution care at all that you suffer? You mention consciousness, and I propose to you that consceiousness is not possible without a personal God. But that's another discussion. Me:
“But materialism doesn’t provide a grounding for “ought” other than one’s own whims; and it can’t even answer the question of why we even have whims.”
CS:
I agree. However, materialism, or any other “ism”, need not do that. The only “ism” the counts is the I-Do-Not-Want-To-Suffer “ism.” That’s where it all stems from. Everything else is a phantom with no actual meaning.
Again. Not wanting to suffer is a response to an ought. You don't want to suffer because you know you ought not to suffer. Where does that come from? If you say from your consciousness, you must address where that comes from, and you begin the slippery slope into the abyss of materialisms regress problem. But again, that's another discussion. CS:
Happy Holidays
Thank you. I hope you have a Merry Christmas, too. :)CannuckianYankee
December 10, 2013
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Mark Frank:
God does not exist because if he did he would conform himself to commonly accepted morality.
You might as well say, “God does not exist because if he did he would behave in a way that I suppose most people would prefer,” because to you “commonly accepted morality” means nothing more than “that which I suppose most people prefer.” The argument is incoherent.
One of these has got to be wrong: * Evil exists * An omnipotent and omnibenevolent being would not allow evil to exist. * There is [not] an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being Which one do you reject?
I answered this very question in the OP.Barry Arrington
December 10, 2013
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As far as evil exists, if "evil" corresponds to "that which is against what god wills", or "that which is against god's nature", then for free will of any significant value to exist, the potential for evil must exist if individual with free will choose to intend evil - go against god's will or nature. Free Will without the capacity to do evil is like compatibalist free will: a semantic facade.William J Murray
December 10, 2013
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I don't really understand the idea that suffering is inherently evil, or that a god that doesn't alleviate suffering is considered evil. Not to trivialize suffering, but a child suffers when you don't give it what it wants because, ultimately, we know that what the child wants is not good for it. Also, in "tough love" situations, we must let those we love suffer the consequences of their actions until they make the decision to change their behavior. In the case of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent god, one must first define what those terms mean. IMO, they mean that god can do anything that can be done without violating its innate characteristics or what is logically impossible (like creating a 4-sided triangle), and creates/causes as much good as is possible given the limitations described by the nature of god (and by extension, what god creates). Much of the anti-theist perspective about evil and suffering centers around an immature and unsophisticated, almost child-like conceptualization of god and existence, as if god can simply do anything, including making a 4-sided triangle. What can "free" will be, in essence, if not the capacity to move away from god and defy god's will? If one doesn't have the capacity to choose something other than what god wills, they do not have free will. Thus, in order for free will to exist, existence must structurally support the possibility that things other than what god wills can occur. So, while god would never will suffering, suffering must be allowed to exist for those that choose to suffer. One might argue that no one chooses to suffer; I disagree, but that is irrelevant. If one chooses to suffer, the capacity to suffer, and god allowing it to happen, are logically necessary or else we cannot have free will. There must be the potential in existence for all kinds of things to occur that god would rather not occur in order for "free will" to be anything other than a facade. There's a difference between pain and suffering. There are mindsets that can alleviate much suffering; for instance, a deep conviction in the afterlife and that living has a greater purpose can alleviate much suffering, even if it doesn't alleviate the pain of losing a loved one. There are things that only suffering can teach us or mold us into which god cannot simply intervene and wave its hand to accomplish or else it violates our free will and possible some existential, necessary aspects of our existence as independent individuals. The cartoon theism of theists/materialists is simply a convenient vehicle for them to vent their childish rebellion and outrage through; they have cast themselves out of their home and have cut ties with their parent, refuse His help or advice, and then wonder why He allows them and others to suffer. If you're a parent or know other parents, you are familiar with children that go on self-destructive paths into suffering while blaming others who, in their mind, are refusing to help meet their emotional-blackmail demands.William J Murray
December 10, 2013
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Mark: “I know you don’t accept A and B. But it is a coherent argument.”
Barry: Mark, : you’ve put an extraordinary amount of puerile drivel in this combox even by your standards – computers with “necessary suffering” algorithms for heaven’s sake.
Am I allowed to call you names as well – or do I get banned? (I notice you changed the comment from earlier when you said the argument was not coherent – did you change your mind?)
At the end of the day, your argument is simply this: God does not exist because if he did he would conform himself to my morality — by which I mean my subjective preferences about moral questions — which he is bound to share. It is just plain idiotic.
No it isn’t. One of my arguments is to put it concisely “God does not exist because if he did he would conform himself to commonly accepted morality”. However,  I presented another argument above which is more compelling: One of these has got to be wrong: * Evil exists * An omnipotent and omnibenevolent being would not allow evil to exist. * There is an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being Which one do you reject? Perhaps you should put yourself into moderation until you respond?Mark Frank
December 10, 2013
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StephenB,
Central Scrutinizer: Only might makes right. I’ll fight you, and if me and my fellow travelers have enough power, we will overcome you.
I'm speaking particularly of opposing evil-doers. It boils down to that for anyone, regardless of what you believe, if you are trying to enforce your will.
Central Scrutinizer: ...just because somebody recognizes that morality is subjective, it doesn’t mean we don’t think the Golden Rule is not the best morality.
Jesus believed it. And so do I. But at a certain point force is required to enforce your will. Just ask Jesus about that if and when you see him filling up Megeddo with blood up to the horse's bridles.
Does it get any better than that?
Probably not.CentralScrutinizer
December 10, 2013
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CentralScrutinizer: There is no absolute standard you and demonstrate objectively. Only might makes right. StephenB: Unfortunately, your first sentence is incomprehensible,
"and" = "can"
but your second sentence solves the riddle. Your idea of morality is to overpower and silence those who disagree with you.
Ultimately it comes down to that. No matter who you are and what you believe... if you want your will to be done.
Thank you for giving me a straight answer to a straight question.
You bet.CentralScrutinizer
December 10, 2013
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F/N: Evil is not a separate thing but instead basically denotes the privation, perversion and frustration of things that are good in themselves, typically rooted in selfish choices and leading to harm, if unchecked to chaos. For instance our power of communication can be abused to practice lying, which if it spreads unchecked creates chaos. KFkairosfocus
December 10, 2013
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"I know you don’t accept A and B. But it is a coherent argument." Mark, you’ve put an extraordinary amount of puerile drivel in this combox even by your standards – computers with “necessary suffering” algorithms for heaven’s sake. At the end of the day, your argument is simply this: God does not exist because if he did he would conform himself to my morality -- by which I mean my subjective preferences about moral questions -- which he is bound to share. It is just plain idiotic. Barry Arrington
December 10, 2013
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Why should good and evil emanate from God? May be evil emanates from another being (Fallen Angel/Cherub?). Some times evil overtakes good force leading to evil events and calamities. In nature majority of forces have negative forces and particles have antiparticles, so may be this balance exists in supernatural realm too.selvaRajan
December 10, 2013
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