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Fuller vs. Ruse: some thoughts on the controversy

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I have just been reading two articles on Intelligent Design which appeared in The Guardian recently: Science in God’s image (May 3, 2010) and
Intelligent design is an oxymoron (May 5, 2010). After reading the articles, I decided to write a detailed commentary on them both.

The first article is by Professor Steve Fuller and represents his personal view. Although his personal “take” on intelligent design is a controversial one in ID circles, Professor Fuller certainly has a clear grasp of what ID is and where it is heading.

The second article is by Professor Michael Ruse. Professor Ruse has previously debated ID proponents, including Professor William Dembski, so one might reasonably expect him to write a well-informed critique. However, after reading his latest article, I regret to say that Professor Ruse never seems to have understood the nature of the Intelligent Design project in the first place.

1. My comments on Professor Steve Fuller’s article

The most interesting paragraph of Professor Fuller’s article is also the most controversial one. It warrants careful analysis.

The most basic formulation of ID is that biology is divine technology. In other words, God is no less – and possibly no more – than an infinitely better version of the ideal Homo sapiens, whose distinctive species calling card is art, science and technology. Thus, when ID supporters claim that a cell is as intelligently designed as a mousetrap, they mean it literally. The difference between God and us is simply that God is the one being in whom all of our virtues are concentrated perfectly, whereas for our own part those virtues are distributed imperfectly amongst many individuals.

Before I comment on this paragraph, I’d like to recall what I wrote in a post entitled In Praise of Subtlety (22 April 2010), on the philosophy of John Duns Scotus, a medieval theologian known as the Subtle Doctor:

Scotus held that since intelligence and goodness were pure perfections, not limited by their very nature to a finite mode of realization, they could be predicated univocally of God and human beings. To be sure, God’s way of knowing and loving is altogether different from ours: it belongs to God’s very essence to know and love perfectly, whereas we can only know and love by participating in God’s knowledge and love. Also, God’s knowledge and goodness are essentially infinite, while our knowledge and goodness are finite. However, what it means for God to know and love is exactly the same as what it means for human beings to know and love.

However, God is not a Superman. Speaking as a Christian who professes the Catholic faith, and who happens to admire certain aspects of Duns Scotus’ philosophy, I would reverse Professor Fuller’s statement that God is an infinitely better version of the ideal Homo sapiens, for two reasons: first, it exposes believers to the charge of anthropomorphism, and of making God in our own image; second, the ideal Homo sapiens is still an embodied being, whereas God is a spirit. What I would say instead is that human beings possess intelligence and moral goodness to a finite degree, precisely because they are made in the image and likeness of the infinite God. But whereas God is Intelligence and Goodness personified, humans can only know and love by participating in God’s intelligence and love.

What about Professor Fuller’s statement that “biology is divine technology”? This is a statement which no scientist or theologian needs to fear, if by “technology” we simply mean the generation of things whose creation requires skill. By “skill” I mean an activity performed by an intelligent agent acting intentionally, and resulting in information that generates a specific pattern or form. Skill, as I define it here, does not have to include the physical activity of assembling the parts of a thing, piece by piece. God is perfectly free to create as He chooses, using either natural or supernatural means. The term “divine technology” therefore refers to God’s intentional activity of creating certain patterns in nature which embody a very specific kind of information.

As I see it, the main point of the ID program is that certain identifiable features of living things had to have been explicitly specified by the Creator of the biosphere – whether directly (through an act of intervention), or indirectly (either by fine-tuning the initial conditions of the universe, or by building highly specific laws into the fabric of the cosmos, in order to generate the desired features). How God specified these features is unimportant; the question ID attempts to answer is: which features of the biosphere can be shown to be specified? Did God specify the design of the okapi? I have no idea. But ID proponents can confidently claim that the design of the first living cell, the body plans of the 30+ phyla of animals living today, and numerous irreducibly complex systems found in the cells of organisms (including the bacterial flagellum and the blood clotting system) were explicitly specified by the Creator of the biosphere. And the list of specifications is likely to keep growing.

Of course, religious believers are right to point out that even in the absence of any identifiable specifications, the cosmos, and every thing in it, would still need to be kept in being by God. For the cosmos is contingent; it cannot explain its own existence. This is a metaphysical fact, which believers (including many in the ID camp) will assent to. But ID itself is not a metaphysical project, but a scientific one. The question it seeks to answer in the biological arena is: are there any empirically identifiable features of living things that had to have been explicitly specified by their Creator, and if so, which ones?

The other paragraph I’d like to highlight from Steve Fuller’s essay is the following:

But the basic point that remains radical to this day is that, in important ways, the divine and the human are comparable. Notwithstanding Adam’s fall, we are still created “in the image and likeness of God”. From this biblical claim it follows that we might be capable of deploying the powers that distinguish us from the other animals to come closer to God. Such is the theological template on which the secular idea of progress was forged during the scientific revolution.

I agree with the theological point Fuller is making here. Of course the divine and human are comparable, despite the vast differences that separate them: even to say that God’s intelligence is infinite while that of humans is finite is to make a comparison, as it involves predicating intelligence of both God and human beings. The human intellect, which scientists use whenever they do science, is made in God’s image. Fuller’s modest statement that we “might be capable” (emphasis mine) of coming closer to God by using our intellects, which distinguish us from the other animals, is a worthy and pious hope. It is an historical fact that the pioneers of the scientific revolution thought they were thinking God’s thoughts after Him, and the contemporary scientific quest for a mathematically elegant “theory of everything” has a strong mystical streak: at heart, it reflects an endeavor to second-guess the way in which God, the Supreme Intelligence, would have designed the fundamental parameters of the cosmos.

This mysticism at the heart of science explains why Albert Einstein, although not a believer in a personal God, felt impelled to make declarations such as these: “I maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research,” and “What I am really interested in is knowing whether God could have created the world in a different way; in other words, whether the requirement of logical simplicity admits a margin of freedom.”

Not being an historian of science, I do not wish to take issue with Professor Fuller’s assertion, which he makes later on his article, that ID “is no more anti-science than the original Protestant reformers were atheists,” or with his view that the Scientific Revolution was to a large degree inspired by Protestant thinking. I will simply point out in passing that the scientific revolution is commonly considered to have begun with the publication of two ground-breaking works in 1543: Nicolaus Copernicus’s De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres) and Andreas Vesalius’s De humani corporis fabrica (On the Fabric of the Human body). Both of these works were written by Catholics. On the whole, I believe Christianity – whether Catholic or Protestant – to be a science-friendly religion.

In my opinion, however, Fuller’s observation that people today are taking science into their own hands, just as they took religion into their hands in the 16th and 17th centuries, is sociologically accurate, and he is surely right to draw parallels between the role of the Internet as the means by which people are now calling into question assertions made by experts in various scientific fields (think of global warming, for instance), and the role of the printing press in the 16th and 17th centuries as the vehicle through which statements by authority figures in the religious domain were brought into question.

2. My comments on Professor Michael Ruse’s article

I am very sorry to say that Professor Ruse’s article, Intelligent design is an oxymoron, contains about as many factual and logical inaccuracies as it contains statements. These inaccuracies relate to science, philosophy and religion. To illustrate my point, I shall quote excerpts from the article and briefly comment on each.

At the heart of Steve Fuller’s defense of intelligent design theory (ID) is a false analogy. He compares the struggles of the ID supporters to the travails of the Protestant Reformers. Just as they stood against the established Catholic church, so the ID supporters stand against establishment science, specifically Darwinian evolutionary theory. Where this comparison breaks down is that the Protestants were no less Christians than the Catholics. It was rather that they differed over the right way to get to heaven. For the Protestants it was justification through faith, believing in the Lord, whereas for Catholics, it was good works. Given that Saint Augustine, some thousand years before, had labeled the Catholic position the heresy of Pelagianism, the reformers had a good point.

The first paragraph of Professor Ruse’s article is riddled with factual errors. Where to begin?

(1) Full marks to Professor Ruse for acknowledging that Protestants and Catholics are both Christians. At least he got that right.

(2) Professor Ruse is quite wrong in claiming that Catholics believe good works will get you to Heaven. Indeed, the Catechism of the Catholic Church declares the contrary: “We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved” (paragraph 2005). Paragraphs 1987-2029 of the Catechism explain what the Catholic Church actually teaches on grace and justification. Readers will be pleasantly surprised to learn that Catholics and Protestants are a lot closer on these issues than is popularly assumed.

(3) Pelagius, according to the same catechism, “held that man could by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God’s grace, lead a morally good life” (paragraph 406). As the catechism mentions in a footnote, Pelagius’s teachings (including a watered-down version of his views, called Semipelagianism) were officially condemned by the Catholic Church at the Second Council of Orange in 529 A.D.

(4) Saint Augustine did not label the Catholic position “Pelagianism.” On the contrary, he did everything in his power (including lobbying two Popes) to get the Catholic Church to condemn Pelagius’ errors – an endeavor in which he was finally successful.

(5) The Catechism of the Catholic Church approvingly cites St. Augustine no less than six times in its article on Grace and Justification (paragraphs 1987-2029). Which is a pretty odd thing to do if St. Augustine said the Catholic Church was in “heresy,” don’t you think?

Not a good start. And I’m afraid it doesn’t get better. Here’s another excerpt:

In the ID case, whatever its supporters may say publicly for political purposes – in the USA thanks to the First Amendment you cannot teach religion in state-funded schools – the intention is to bring God into the causal process. ID claims that there are some phenomena (like the bacterial flagellum and the blood-clotting cascade) are so “irreducibly complex,” that to explain them we must invoke an “intelligent designer.” As they admit among themselves – the philosopher-mathematician William Dembski is quite clear on this – the designer is none other than our old friend the God of Christianity.

(1) “Bring God into the causal process”?? The notion makes absolutely no sense. According to religious believers, no causal process could exist without God in the first place. God sustains the universe in being; it would not exist, even for a second, without Him.

(2) Irreducibly complexity doesn’t come in degrees; either a system is irreducibly complex or it isn’t. Professor Ruse’s phrase “so irreducibly complex” (emphasis mine) betrays a misunderstanding of this point.

(3) Professor Dembski’s views on the identity of the intelligent designer form no part of Intelligent Design theory, as contained in ID textbooks. Intelligent Design as such is a scientific project.

(4) Professor Dembski’s religious views and motives are no more germane to the scientific merits of Intelligent Design theory than the atheistic views and motives of most neo-Darwinists are of relevance to the scientific merits of neo-Darwinism.

Professor Ruse opens his third paragraph with the following jaw-dropper:

The trouble for the Fuller analogy is that science simply does not allow God as a causal factor.

Now, if Professor Ruse had claimed that science does not explicitly invoke God as a causal factor, he would have been on strong argumentative ground. But to say that science does not allow God as a causal factor is patently absurd. Or does Ruse really think that scientists can legislate God out of existence?

Professor Ruse goes on to cite a nineteenth-century Anglican divine, William Whewell, on the limits of science:

“The mystery of creation is not within the range of her [science’s] legitimate territory; she says nothing, but she points upwards.”

Three points in reply:

(1) Whewell’s view on the limits of science is a venerable and respected one; but that does not make it right. In the end, science is the quest for the best explanations of the phenomena we observe. In the last few decades, modern science has encountered certain highly specified phenomena, within the domains of both physics (finely tuned constants of nature) and biology (specified complexity within the cell). Maybe methodological naturalism needs to be questioned.

(2) Intelligent Design theory does not specify the identity of the Designer, as Professor Ruse is well aware.

(3) Even if ID proponents were to reason like Professor Fuller would like them to do, and try to reverse-engineer the cell, assuming it to have been designed by an infinitely intelligent Being (God), the modus operandi of the Creator would still remain a mystery. Thus even if scientists were to abandon methodological naturalism and embrace theism, creation would retain an aura of mystery for them.

Professor Ruse continues:

In the 20th century, two of the most important Darwinian biologists – Ronald Fisher in England and the Russian-born Theodosius Dobzhansky in America – were deeply committed Christians.

Now, Fisher was indeed a devout Anglican, despite his rather Darwinian views on eugenics; but Dobzhansky’s religious views were anything but Christian, according to this interesting article by Denyse O’Leary. A eulogy published by Dobzhansky’s pupil Francisco Ayala in 1977 described the content of his religion thus: “Dobzhansky was a religious man, although he apparently rejected fundamental beliefs of traditional religion, such as the existence of a personal God and of life beyond physical death. His religiosity was grounded on the conviction that there is meaning in the universe. He saw that meaning in the fact that evolution has produced the stupendous diversity of the living world and has progressed from primitive forms of life to mankind. Dobzhansky held that, in man, biological evolution has transcended itself into the realm of self-awareness and culture. He believed that somehow mankind would eventually evolve into higher levels of harmony and creativity.” [Ayala, F.J., “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution,” Journal of Heredity, Vol. 68, January-February 1977, p. 9.]

Professor Ruse goes on to accuse ID proponents of being defeatists, and hence no true scientists:

As Thomas Kuhn pointed out repeatedly, when scientists cannot find solutions, they don’t blame the world. They blame themselves. You don’t give up in the face of disappointments. You try again. Imagine if Watson and Crick had thrown in the towel when their first model of the DNA molecule proved fallacious. The very essence of ID is admitting defeat and invoking inexplicable miracles. The bacterial flagellum is complex. Turn to God! The blood clotting cascade is long and involved. Turn to God! That is simply not the way to do science.

(1) Contrary to what Ruse claims, ID proponents are eternally grateful to Watson and Crick for persevering in their quest to identify the structure of DNA. Without their persistence, scientists would never have known that DNA is a digital code, which contains a large amount of specified information. It was precisely this feature of DNA that Dr. Stephen Meyer highlighted in his recent book, Signature in the Cell, in which he argued that only the intentional activity of an intelligent agent could adequately explain the occurrence of DNA.

(2) ID proponents would never urge a scientist to give up trying to understand a process that is already known to occur, such as heredity. We should never give up trying to understand what things are; that’s science. The question that preoccupies ID is where they came from, or what process generated them in the first place.

(3) ID invokes an Intelligent Designer only when it has established that the probability of a specified biological feature arising as a result of the laws of nature coupled with random processes, falls below a well-defined threshold. Thus if evolutionary naturalism is true, then the emergence of this feature would be astronomically improbable. In a situation like this, invoking an Intelligent Designer is not “giving up”; on the contrary, it simply amounts to a rational decision to stop flogging a dead horse (evolutionary naturalism).

(4) As a scientific project, Intelligent Design does not equate the Designer with God, even if many ID proponents happen to believe that the Designer is in fact God.

In any case, there’s no need to worry, Professor Ruse assures us: science has succeeded in explaining away the very phenomena that gave rise to ID theory.

And as it happens, both the flagellum and the cascade have revealed their very natural, law-bound mysteries to regular scientists who keep plugging away and wouldn’t take “no” for an answer.

(1) Regarding the flagellum: curious readers may like to click here to hear Professor Michael Behe explain why, in his view, the flagellum is irreducibly complex, on Intelligent Design the Future. Behe also examines the two currently proposed evolutionary explanations for the assembly of the flagellum, co-option and homology, showing why both proposals fall short in uncovering the origins of this molecular machine. See also Behe’s recent blog post, “Reducible complexity’ in PNAS, which debunks claims that the evolution of the flagellum has now been explained in naturalistic terms, without the need for a Designer.

(2) As regards the blood clotting cascade, readers might like to begin with In Defense of the Irreducibility of the Blood Clotting Cascade: Response to Russell Doolittle, Ken Miller and Keith Robison (July 31, 2000), by Professor Michael Behe, as well as Casey Luskin’s recent recap, Kenneth Miller, Michael Behe and the Irreducible Complexity of the Blood Clotting Cascade Saga (January 1, 2010), which has links to eleven follow-up articles on the blood clotting cascade.

I am not a scientist; but my impression is that Professor Behe acquits himself well in this dispute.

Professor Ruse has argued robustly, if erroneously, up to this point. But suddenly his tone changes from aggressive to wounded:

ID is theology – very bad theology. As soon as you bring God into the world on a daily creative basis, then the theodicy problem – the problem of evil – rears its ugly head. If God works away miraculously to do the very complex, presumably in the name of goodness, then why on earth does God not occasionally get involved miraculously to prevent the very simple with horrendous consequences? Some very, very minor genetic changes have truly dreadful effects, causing people life-long pain and despair. If God thought it worth His time to make the blood clot, then why was it not worth His time to prevent Huntingdon’s Chorea?

(1) ID as such does not claim that God interacts with the world on a daily basis. Another possibility, for those who accept ID, is that God fine-tuned the initial conditions of the cosmos at the beginning of time, so as to bring about the eventual emergence of irreducibly complex systems, such as the blood clotting cascade. No supernatural intervention is required on this scenario.

(2) Repairing mutations which occur in millions of individuals, and relate to thousands of different diseases, would demand a lot more Divine intervention than the single act of creating an irreducibly complex system.

(3) “What about preventing these mutations from happening in the first place?” I hear you ask. Easier said than done, and until we know the biological cost associated with doing that, it’s premature to complain about God not doing so. Some of these mutations might be beneficial in certain circumstances; removing them might not be a good idea.

(4) Religious believers would add that the Fall of our first parents might well have prevented God from intervening to prevent human suffering as often as He would have liked, during human history. Perhaps God’s hands are tied to some extent, by His promise to respect our freedom.

(5) The rhetorical argument proves too much, and could be used against any kind of personal religion: “If God thought it worth His time to [answer a prayer or work a miracle], then why was it not worth His time to prevent Huntingdon’s Chorea?”

Professor Ruse concludes:

Keep God out of the day-to-day functioning of things. If, like the archbishop of Canterbury, you absolutely must have God do law-breaking miracles – apparently he would give up and become a Quaker if the tomb had not been empty on the third day – then at least restrict His activities to the cause of our salvation.

Three short comments in reply:

(1) God conserves everything in being. Like it or not, God is involved in the “day-to-day functioning of things.”

(2) As the Creator of the cosmos, God is entitled to work miracles as rarely or as often as He wishes, and for whatever reason He wishes.

(3) Professor Ruse should not try to tell God what to do.

Comments
above, madbat can't answer you. He got banned by Clive @ One Six Five:
Clive Hayden 05/13/2010 2:26 am madbat089, Goodbye.
Doomsday Smith
May 13, 2010
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@madbat 151 -“……the simple fact that we know with 100% certainty that naturalistic processes govern every single currently observable phenomenon in the biological realm (e.g. in physiology, behavior, genetics, ecology,…) would be “positive proof” for naturalism.” I ‘m sorry, but how did you come to such an absurd conclusion? First, can you please explain to us your methodology of attaining 100% certitude? I’m dying to know this model you’ve developed!!! Second, what exactly is your 100% proof that all behavior is governed by naturalistic processes? And please do not reference the pseudo-science of evolutionary psychology. We’re trying to have a serious discussion here.above
May 13, 2010
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Above and Phaedros, Though not a study on the direct linkage of paganism and atheism, this following video does highlight some stunning similarities with scholarly depth: The Ancient Pagan Root Of Evolution http://edinburghcreationgroup.org/roots.xml ------------ cool song: MercyMe- "You Reign" Music Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-bxXEqGFqgbornagain77
May 13, 2010
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@Phaedros #122: -"Has anyone ever done a study concerning the similarities between atheism and paganism? I’d really like to know. I think that basically atheism is paganism in denial" That is correct. A study on the matter would definitely be a step in the right direction in exposing the real face of atheism, its superstition and absurdities.above
May 13, 2010
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PS: Those needing to find a model framework for thinking about minds and bodies, could find it helpful to start with Eng Derek Smith's two-tier controller cybernetic loop here, in which a front end i/o controller in the loop is supervised by a higher order creative controller that interacts with the loop informationally and perceptually, providing creative and decisional inputs.kairosfocus
May 13, 2010
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BA: Thanks for the video and excerpt links. (I think you will find Bradley's lecture excerpt here also useful as a summary on some key fine tuning constraints and how they tie to our existence, though a bit spoiled by frame rate.) I appreciate your point on how BH's are entropy-rich long term [if big enough] but only metastable entities that eventually evaporate through quantum tunnelling out of the potential barriers. [VERY long times for the big boys . . . way beyond time for universe as a whole to become effectively sterile. Now that there is fair confidence in a flat cosmos, there would be enough time plausibly available, i.e. no big crunch is likely. And of course big crunches add up entropy so infinite oscillating universes are not really on the cards anymore.] My point above, though, was about worldviews and what we view as plausible/ "extraordinary" [in the Sagan sense]; not BH science as such. BH's for decades were strongly believed in though not observed, as implications of relativistic physics and cosmology. There have been candidates ever since I heard of Cygnus X-1 in the mid 70's, and now it5 is argued that there is "compelling" evidence that we have a biggie at the heart of our galaxy, out in the direction of Sagittarius. Also, the point of the very term BH, is that once an event horizon forms, the escape velocity exceeds the speed of light, so we have a defined unobservable zone. For decades, an elaborate physics of BH's was worked out, without strident demands for direct observation to justify accepting them as credible. Similarly, the remote past of origins (of the cosmos, of life and of body plan level biodiversity) is an unobservable. Indeed, the timelines we commonly see for these things are deeply inferential, as is the scale of space. That is, inferred as opposed to observed quantities and entities are routine in science. Now, pivot a bit, and reflect on our experience and observation of our selves as minded, enconscienced, intelligent creatures. Immediately, the controversy level shoots up by orders of magnitude. There are entire fields of study predicated on the assumptions and assertions that such central experiences of ourselves are illusory, and must be wholly explicable in terms of matter and energy evolving purposelessly across time, through the forces of chance and necessity. Never mind the patent self-referentially inconsistent absurdities that flow from that. And, if you are so impertinent as to suggest that intelligence leaves observable traces that can be empirically tested and found sufficiently reliable to be seen as signs of intelligence [never mind the actual fact that this is a routine practice on common sense and in many unquestionably scientific fields], you are threatened with expulsion from the halls of science, as you are allowing a divine foot in the door. In short, selective hyperskepticism is afoot, and reveals itself in teh agenda serving inconsistencies in standards of evidence demanded. Sagan's assertions notwithstanding:
"extraordinary claims require extraordinary [ADEQUATE] evidence."
1 --> There is more than adequate evidence that we can think, decide and reason for ourselves, not simply as the result of neuronal networks firing away as the happenstance outcome of genetic and social conditioning. 2 --> That demands that we recognise realities that go beyond the chance and mechanism driven grinding away of the matter-energy wheels of the physical chemical and biological worlds. 3 --> There is more than adequate reason -- just think of how we quarrel by asserting generally recognised principles of right and wrong -- to infer that we are morally obligated creatures. 4 --> And yes, that lets a lot more than a mere divine foot in the door: it demands a good and just Creator God as the ground of a cosmos in which there is an IS that can adequately ground OUGHT. 5 --> There is more than adequate evidence that intelligent actors often leave empirically reliable signs of intelligent action behind them. [The FSCI in the many posts in this thread are direct cases in point, among gazillions.] 6 --> So, we have a perfect epistemological and scientific right to see the inference from signs of intelligence to the signified intelligence as warranted. 7 --> Thus, when we see the digital codes, algorithms, information storage and transmission, encoding and decoding, translation and step by step processing in the heart of the living cell, we have every right to infer from such signs of intelligence to the intelligent design of the cell. 8 --> When we see the sort of extraordinary coordinated fine tuning that sets up a cosmos in which we can have such cells and the life that is based on them, we have every further good reason to infer on scientific evidence at least as good as that for he existence of BH's and their significance, that the cosmos as a whole was designed for life, indeed for intelligent life. 9 --> And, when we see that body plan level biodiversity [including that required to make us] incorporates FSCI beyond the 500 - 1,000 bits that marks a threshold where the observed -- as opposed to speculative -- universe does not have credible resources to search out he configuration space implied by the number of bits, then it is also reasonable to infer that such body plans were designed. 10 --> So, pace the strawmannish distortions of Ruse et al down to MB and others of like ilk, the inference to design is reasonable and empirically at least as well warranted as many constructs that are taken seriously in contemporary science. 11 --> Also, we see that the chain of inference that points to a good creator God in part uses the inference to a credible designer of the cosmos, of life and of body plans, but draws far more strongly on our first fact of experience: we are minded, enconscienced, deciding and thinking creatures. [Even those who would argue from the fact of evil to challenging the reality of God are acknowledging the reality of morality, and what that entails in a world where only a Creator God who is good as to essential character can ground OUGHT in an IS. So, while evil is a challenge, it has to be reckoned with within a view of reality that accepts the only credible ground for morality. And, on that, Job 38 ff has never been bettered.] ________________ GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 13, 2010
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madbat089, Goodbye.Clive Hayden
May 13, 2010
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Phaedros, that was a way cool video,, You may like this one: When You Know - Inspirational Song http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4209342 kairofocus: this video may interest you: Virtual Particles, Anthropic Principle & Relativity http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4554674 There are a few other lines of evidence outlining constraints on black holes that preclude them from ever being considered "singularities of creation". Mainly the entropic considerations from Penrose in his piece "How special was The Big Bang?" How special was the big bang? http://www.ws5.com/Penrose/ Creative black holes are constrained as well by the fact that as far as the interrelational gravitational effect of mass to space-time is concerned the mass is still there in reality though space-time has collapsed for the mass for the gravitational effect produced by the black hole is still proportional to the amount of mass the black hole has engulfed,,, i.e. the materialist is stuck in a trying to get "something for nothing" scenario even if the Hawking radiation ultimately fails empirical considerations.bornagain77
May 12, 2010
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Oh, and thanks to bornagain i found this song... Phil Wickham- True Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UGqSW_eeHIPhaedros
May 12, 2010
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Going beyond that UB is dead right to mark the difference between the laws of operation of an entity and the causal forces that set it up. My computer's operations are wholly described by laws of mechanical necessity and chance processes [that good old Johnson noise and shot noise etc], but that has nothing to do with its origin, which is by intelligence that exploited the forces, laws and materials of nature, economically, to achieve a purpose for the benefit of humanity. (And if you don't recognise it, I just gave the ABET standard definition of engineering.) The characteristic sign of that engineering is that the computer reflects complex, functional organisation and associated information. In J S Wiken's words:
Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and notes added. Nb: “originally” is added to highlight that for self-replicating systems, the blue print can be built-in.)]
Of course, as I had to point out in another thread today, natural selection is not an information source, it is an information filter: it selects the most functional sub population for survival, among reproducing populations. And since it depends on existing functionality up to the level of the population, it cannot explain the origin of said reproductive capacity and required organisation and information. That organisation has to fulfill the requisites of a von Neumann self replicator, which is irreducibly complex and beyond the credible reach of darwinian mechanisms, whether for the first life form or for the dozens of major body plans. The requisites, of which ii to iv are an irreducibly complex core and i and v are underpinning requisites, are:
(i) an underlying code to record/store the required information and to guide procedures for using it, (ii) a coded blueprint/tape record of such specifications and (explicit or implicit) instructions, together with (iii) a tape reader that reads and interprets the coded specifications and associated instructions, and (iv) implementing machines (and associated organisation and procedures) to carry out the specified replication (including that of the constructor itself); backed up by (v) either: (1) a pre-existing reservoir of required parts and energy sources, or (2) associated “metabolic” machines carrying out activities that provide required specific materials and forms of energy by using the generic resources in the surrounding environment.
No wonder the now "almost unmanageably rich" fossil record definitively shows islands of functionality, not Darwin's expected smoothly varying pattern of populations from first life to the many different major body plans of the fossil record and today. And no wonder the Lewontin a priori materialists are consistently reduced to strawman distortions and denigratory tactics, as sadly Ruse himself showed in the original post. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 12, 2010
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BA: Appreciated. Actually, there are issues on net evaporation (a Q-tunnelling effect where by potential barriers in Q-th are never perfect) with the theoretical equilibrium being a BH about mass of the moon at 2.7K. Beyond, they currently eat more than they give up. However, my core point is that we are dealing with theory beyond any significant body of actual observations. The EH is a window that locks us out observationally and a BH being a net black body radiator through Q-tunnelling evap is uninformative of its internal state. (One of Planck's key breakthroughs with cavity radiator analysis, was that he worked out that there was no dependence of BB radiation on the specific material inside.) And, frankly, I don't trust theorising that is not checkable at multiple points, the more directly the better. And even then the theory can still be wrong -- as happened with Newtonian Physics 100 years ago. For, epistemologically and logically, science affirms the consequent: If THEORY, then Observation; observation so THEORY. We add, so far, and put faith in it if multiple tests are there. But the logical error is plain: If cat then animal, Animal so cat is plainly a fallacy. Science is a faith-venture. In the case of BH models, there is no definitive direct observation, though there are hopes including the large hadron collider, and the chain of inference for a supermassive BH at the heart of our galaxy is compelling to many. So, to go on to speculate on black holes about budding universes or other forms of multiverses is quite similar to debates on how many angels can dance on the point of a pin. Though even that had a legitimate logical point: distinguish location from extension. Rhetorically, the notion that this is well founded science, complete with mathematical apparatus and simulation models and artist;s impressions shores up a specualtion that we suddently have more and more space so we can get around they sort of probabilisticv barraiers thsat jump out on fine tuning of physical parameters and on the complex integrated informasiton rich organisaiton of cell based life. But, if the truth in labelling law were applied, this would be acknowledged metaphysics. So other metaphysical frames have equal rights at the table off comparative difficulties analysis, including design of the cosmos by an extracosmic, powerful and wise necessary being [necessary as a contingent cosmos with a beginning necessitates a begin-ner], intent on creating a cosmos habitable for life. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
May 12, 2010
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Materialists must adopt an unscientific standpoint in order to maintain their position. Let's start from the top. They must deny teleology, causality, AND ontology, i.e. The argumenta for (evidences) God's existence. Thus, they must deny reason. Next, they must deny vast arrays of independent and interdependent evidence. They must first deny history, i.e. the historicity of Jesus Christ. They would have us throw out any history that is not recorded on film because we "cannot know history". Then they must deny the martyrs of early christianity who died horrible deaths because they would not renounce their knowledge, not just belief, in the ressurection of Jesus Christ. Then thy have to deny the experience of billions. In doing so they also deny the basis for their philosophy, i.e. Perception. One had to ask, would a materialist be willing to hold on to their belief under threat of death? I doubt it entirely. This is only the tip of the iceberg really. Now, I dont know why Christians, and others, mince words with talk of "belief" in God's being and dont just call it what it is, knowledge. This reminds me of two passages, Matthew 4:4  "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." and John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." the first speaks to this superstitious, unscientific belief called materialism and the second reminda us that nothing, not even science, was made without God, or the logos known as Jesus Christ.Phaedros
May 12, 2010
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StephenB: TOUCHE! http://www.bgassociates.com/images/GMDC%20TOUCHE.jpg kariofocus: Hawking radiation renders the budding universes conjecture moot since all the mass going into black holes is now shown to eventually evaporate. i.e. the mass of the black hole is not going anywhere it is just stored up just as a battery is stored up that will eventually leak away. Though we can't see past the event horizon because of speed of light concerns, which the gravitational acceleration of the black hole exceeds, this does not prevent us from concluding that since no mass is leaving the black holes. then no hypothetical parallel universes are being created. i.e. you can't get something from nothing. notes: Hawking radiation Hawking radiation (also known as Bekenstein-Hawking radiation) is a thermal radiation with a black body spectrum predicted to be emitted by black holes due to quantum effects. It is named after the physicist Stephen Hawking who provided the theoretical argument for its existence in 1974, and sometimes also after the physicist Jacob Bekenstein who predicted that black holes should have a finite, non-zero temperature and entropy. Hawking's work followed his visit to Moscow in 1973 where Soviet scientists Yakov Zeldovich and Alexander Starobinsky showed him that according to the quantum mechanical uncertainty principle, rotating black holes should create and emit particles.[1] The Hawking radiation process reduces the mass of the black hole and is therefore also known as black hole evaporation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation Properties of black hole radiation from tunnelling - 2008 We consider the spacetime associated with the evaporation of a black hole by quantum mechanical tunnelling events. It is shown that the surface through which tunnelling occurs is distinct from the global event horizon, and that this has consequences for the radiation reaching future null infinity. A spherical collapse process is modelled, and the radiation expected to be observed at future null infinity is calculated. It is shown that external observers witness an evaporation process that begins as the tunnelling surface is exposed, and ends as the collapsing object passes behind its event horizon. The sensitivity of emitted radiation to the collapse process is illustrated. http://iopscience.iop.org/0264-9381/25/17/175022;jsessionid=4B30752344E221C9E70E31B8EDF218BC.c3 Soundgarden - Black Hole Sun - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiSkyEyBczUbornagain77
May 12, 2010
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---madbat 089: "The interpretation that the universe is fine-tuned for the emergence and organization of life as we see it today (in particular human life, since this argument usually goes with the anthropic principle) only is meaningful from a teleological perspective (i.e. the assumption that human life in it’s current form is the ultimate goal of the universe)." The finely-tuned physical constants are not interpretations, they are SCIENTIFIC FACTS. The argument that a finely-tuned universe requires a fine-tuner is a slam-dunk philosophical argument. So, [a] you ignore the scientific facts until you can ignore them no more, at which time you label them as "teleology" and [b] misinterpret the facts that you mischaracterized as philosophical arguments by implying that a universe can fine tune itself, abandoning causality. ----madbat 089“The universe simply exists, and we observe it having a particular set of rules that governs which sets of events will or will not eventually occur. Under that particular set of rules life as we observe it today has eventually occurred, and, governed and constrained by that very same set of rules, evolved into the currently observable multitude of shapes and relationships.” You simply take everything for granted and offer that as a rational argument. Where did the rules come from? [They're just there] How did the universe come into being? [It just did]. How and why did life appear? [It just happened]. WHY investigate the universe if there is no rational order to it? [We just do]. HOW can we investigate it if there is no rational order to it? [Don’t ask]. WHAT can we use to investigate it with if we have no rational minds to correspond with the ordered universe? [Matter investigates itself]. This is intellectual sophistication?StephenB
May 12, 2010
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further notes: The Mental Universe: Excerpt: The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. Richard Conn Henry is a Professor in the Henry A. Rowland Department of Physics and Astronomy, The Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3AH4aIY8j7t30J%3Ahenry.pha.jhu.edu%2FThe.mental.universe.pdf+The+Mental+Universe&hl=en&gl=us This following study solidly refutes the "hidden variable" argument that has been used by materialists to try to get around the Theistic implications of this instantaneous "spooky action at a distance" found in quantum mechanics. Quantum Measurements: Common Sense Is Not Enough, Physicists Show - July 2009 Excerpt: scientists have now proven comprehensively in an experiment for the first time that the experimentally observed phenomena cannot be described by non-contextual models with hidden variables. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090722142824.htm (of note: hidden variables were postulated to remove the need for “spooky” forces, as Einstein termed them—forces that act instantaneously at great distances, thereby breaking the most cherished rule of relativity theory, that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.) "It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness." Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Wigner Madbat if you continue to insist reality has a "material basis" please explain the origination of the entire universe with no space-time energy-matter to do so with: Inflationary spacetimes are not past-complete - Borde-Guth-Vilenkin - 2003 Excerpt: inflationary models require physics other than inflation to describe the past boundary of the inflating region of spacetime. http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0110012 "It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can long longer hide behind the possibility of a past eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning." Alexander Vilenkin - Many Worlds In One - Pg. 176 The Scientific Evidence For The Big Bang - Michael Strauss PhD. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4323668 Evidence Supporting the Big Bang http://www.astronomynotes.com/cosmolgy/s7.htmbornagain77
May 12, 2010
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madbat089 you state: "If you really believe that statement to be a valid “positive proof” for ID, then the simple fact that we know with 100% certainty that naturalistic processes govern every single currently observable phenomenon in the biological realm (e.g. in physiology, behavior (sorry madbat no go on this one unless you want to defend the "gay gene"), genetics, ecology,…) would be “positive proof” for naturalism." you are correct in so far as you limit yourself to purely material processes. But the overriding principle that drives all sub-speciation events is Genetic Entropy, which is traceable as loss of genetic diversity and loss of capacity for morphological novelty as well as measurable by the loss of fitness of any particular species over long periods of time. then you state: Not sure why you think that the assumption that the entire universe can be explained by the universal constants (and photons and mathematical equations, which both are governed by the universal constants) is supposed to contradict, instead of support naturalism? First the mathematical equations operate within the parameters of the universal constants but are not derivable from them. Same for the photons. In fact each photon is reducible to infinite transcendent information per Duwell and Bennett: Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) --- Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport. http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf Whereas the universal constants themselves are not reducible to any material basis but are indeed shown to be transcendent of any of the material constraints that are placed on "uncertain 3-D particles" Uncertainty Principle - The Uncertain Non-Particle" Basis Of Material Reality - video and article http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4109172 http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-uncertainty/ you then state: I would like to see you explain, in an unbroken string of logic, how “the double slit-quantum erasure has demonstrated that consciousness must precede the uncertain 3-D material reality.” And please enclose reference to the original publications, so a sceptic can see how well you are representing the scientists’ actual science. In conjunction with the mathematical necessity of an "Uncaused Cause" to explain the beginning of the universe, in philosophy it has been shown that,,, "The 'First Mover' is necessary for change occurring at each moment." Michael Egnor - Aquinas’ First Way http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/09/jerry_coyne_and_aquinas_first.html I find this centuries old philosophical argument, for the necessity of a "First Mover" accounting for change occurring at each moment, to be validated by quantum mechanics. This is since the possibility for the universe to be considered a "closed system" of cause and effect is removed with the refutation of the "hidden variable" argument. i.e. There must be a sufficient transcendent cause (God/First Mover) to explain the quantum wave collapse to the "uncertain" 3D effect for "each moment" of the universe. Dr. Quantum - Double Slit Experiment & Entanglement - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4096579/ Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm This following experiment highlights the centrality of consciousness in the Double Slit Experiment as to the wave collapse and refutes any "detector centered" arguments for wave collapse: Delayed choice quantum eraser Excerpt: Now for the weirder part. What if we manipulate the experiment so as to make it impossible to determine from which down-converter a given idler photon emerged? What if, that is, we erase the which-path information embodied by the idler photon? Well, something amazing happens: even though we’ve done nothing directly to the signal photons, by erasing which-path information carried by their idler partners we can recover an interference pattern from the signal photons[!!!!!!] http://onemorebrown.wordpress.com/2008/02/10/god-vs-the-delayed-choice-quantum-eraser/ of note; Consciousness must be INFORMED with local certainty to cause the wave to become a particle. We know from the Double Slit Experiment, with delayed erasure, that the simple fact of a detector being present is NOT sufficient to explain the wave collapse. If the detector results are erased after detection but before conscious analysis we see the wave form result instead of the particle result. This clearly establishes the centrality of consciousness to the whole experiment. i.e. The clear implication from the experiment is that consciousness is primary, and detection secondary, to the collapse of the wave function to a 3-D particle. Consciousness must precede 3-Dimensional material reality. Why, who makes much of a miracle? As to me, I know of nothing else but miracles, Whether I walk the streets of Manhattan, Or dart my sight over the roofs of houses toward the sky,,, Walt Whitman - Miracles then you state: Which might serve to illustrate the point that ridiculing a scientific concept based on the ignorance of the factual meaning of the concept serves nothing but to expose said ignorance of the ridiculer. I could not have said it better myself madbat089. further reading: http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.combornagain77
May 12, 2010
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PS: Can we observe events beyond the event horizon of a black hole? [And BTW, is there as yet a clear and indisputable, observationally grounded candidate?] --> If the answer to either of these is "no," then how seriously should we take cosmological speculations that go far beyond the sheet anchor of observation?kairosfocus
May 12, 2010
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"...the simple fact that we know with 100% certainty that naturalistic processes govern every single currently observable phenomenon in the biological realm (e.g. in physiology, behavior, genetics, ecology,…) would be “positive proof” for naturalism." You will need to seperate what is operational laws of regularity from origins. Your toaster oven operates by fully natural means, but that tells us nothing about how it came into existence. There is nothing in the atomic make-up of the materials, nor in the natural forces acting on any of the materials, that explains how they came to be organized in such a state. This would seem rather obvious. The thing that distiguishes the state of its being is the input of information. This would seem rather obvious as well. A biological system displays that same quality - it is the input of information which explains the state of its existence. Because it is a self-replicating system, it goes further to include a semiotic abstraction of itself encoded in a medium. That abstraction is taken from the medium, tranfered into another medium, transported elswhere in the organism, then decoded for replication. This is the "observable phenomenon" which must be explained.Upright BiPed
May 12, 2010
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And, as to where the roots of that agenda came from, let us again hear Lewontin describe that in his review of Sagan, in NYRB, 1997:
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [“Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis added.]
In short, in the guise of "science," we are being presented with a metaphysical agenda, whether in biology or in cosmology; one with destructive amoral consequences. Much is at stake, much more than issues of science, and much of it exceedingly dangerous. So, My first counsel is that we must insit that empty metaphysical speculation -- wheter or not dressed up with mathematical apparatus -- be no longer presented to us as "science," but isntead honeslyt as what it is, specualtive discussion on origins with but little anchorage in observation. Especially, as we are unable to observe the distant past of actual origins, however we may wish to infer that certain things are traces of it. (For instance even distance estimates once we move beyonf the range of parallax, are increasingly theory-laden with greater and greater distance, from cepheid variables [the focal topic of my first ever public presentation] to supernovae and other so-called standard candles, to red shifts etc.] In short, let us cultivate that metaphysical humility that Job 38 upbraids us for our want of:
Job 38 The LORD Speaks 1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? [Scientia is of course Latin for "knowledge," which comes from the Gk cognate gnosis] 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone- 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels [a] shouted for joy? 8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb, 9 when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness, 10 when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place, 11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt'? 12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, 13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment. 15 The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken . . .
And, let us observe again on the topic in the main for this thread, the consistent pattern of strawmannish distortion and distraction, and let us observe that this is precisely the problem that Ruse unfortunately exemplified. Surely, we can do better than this. A lot better. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 12, 2010
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Onlookers Ah boy . . . I passed by again, and saw MB's latest sad denigratory caricature [as though I do not have always linked to every post I make at UD a monograph length note on the range of issues linked to design theory; including the issue of multiverse speculations]. I note on this point that the topic for the thread is the topic for the thread, and it is plain above where the distractions have come from, and why. On the latest tangent, we need to observe something very simple: multiverses -- by budding or otherwise -- are not observed entities. So, regardless of mathematical dressing, we are not discussing science but speculative philosophy to be taken with a very large grain of salt. Meanwhile, even more sadly, those only too happy to indulge speculations whose main rhetorical purpose is to imagine a vast expansion of the perceived cosmos -- without empirical warrant -- are utterly unwilling to examine the plain, observable evidence of codes, data structures, algorithms, programs and executing machinery in the cell, and the only known or credible source of such. In short, inconsistent, selective hyperskepticism, in service of a priori metaphysical evolutionary materialism. So, let us put the matter in proper proportion and context, form the greatest of all metaphysicians, Aristocles, known as Plato:
[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . . these people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them . . . These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might, and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions, these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [here, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . . [The laws, Bk X, 360 BC]
Nor is this just an ancient speculation. Here is Provine, in the 1998 U Tenn Darwin Day keynote:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent. . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them . . .
[ . . . ]kairosfocus
May 12, 2010
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Bornagain77, #148: “You see madbat089 we know of 100% certainty that intelligence can and does generate functional information,…” If you really believe that statement to be a valid “positive proof” for ID, then the simple fact that we know with 100% certainty that naturalistic processes govern every single currently observable phenomenon in the biological realm (e.g. in physiology, behavior, genetics, ecology,…) would be “positive proof” for naturalism. “Moreover seeing as how the entire universe is reducible to transcendent information, i.e. the universal constants, the photons themselves, and the mathematical equations (functional information) that governs how particles will behave in this universe,” Not sure why you think that the assumption that the entire universe can be explained by the universal constants (and photons and mathematical equations, which both are governed by the universal constants) is supposed to contradict, instead of support naturalism? “and seeing as how the double slit-quantum erasure has demonstrated that consciousness must precede the “uncertain” 3-D material reality,” Ah, look, there is a perfect opportunity for you (or StephenB, if he wants to jump in) to step up to the plate: if it is so easy to translate astro-physics, or in this case particle-physics into common language, I would like to see you explain, in an unbroken string of logic, how “the double slit-quantum erasure has demonstrated that consciousness must precede the uncertain 3-D material reality.” And please enclose reference to the original publications, so a sceptic can see how well you are representing the scientists’ actual science. Because at this point I feel inclined to reject your reasoning, based on the point that my 3-D material reality is not in the least uncertain. Which might serve to illustrate the point that ridiculing a scientific concept based on the ignorance of the factual meaning of the concept serves nothing but to expose said ignorance of the ridiculer. Common language does not easily deal with phenomena in physics. Which is why the language of physics is math. StephenB, #145: If you are interested in my position on fine-tuning, you might have just looked under #88; but let me rephrase it for you: The interpretation that the universe is fine-tuned for the emergence and organization of life as we see it today (in particular human life, since this argument usually goes with the anthropic principle) only is meaningful from a teleological perspective (i.e. the assumption that human life in it’s current form is the ultimate goal of the universe). I do not operate under a teleological frame work, which means I do not believe that the universe has any “goal” or “purpose”. The universe simply exists, and we observe it having a particular set of rules that governs which sets of events will or will not eventually occur. Under that particular set of rules life as we observe it today has eventually occurred, and, governed and constrained by that very same set of rules, evolved into the currently observable multitude of shapes and relationships. Life has adapted to the universe’s rules, not the other way around, as the teleological perspective assumes. The universe could have started out with a different set of rules. Under a different set of rules, life in the form as we know it today is quite unlikely. We would either not be here to observe anything at all, or we would be different, enabled and governed by said different set of rules, and observing said different set of rules. We have no empirical starting-point to make any models, hypotheses or predictions on forms of life different from our current carbon-based state, which is why the investigation stops here. Apollos, #146: Well, I still disagree with you on several grounds that there would only be 2 alternative logical explanations for the existence of a UCA, but as long as that point remains irrelevant to the discussion, it seems most efficient to ignore it for now. So yes, we both do agree that ID is a logically possible explanation! thanks! Vjtorley, #150: To (3): I agree, life as we know it operates under a large set of constraints. Which, especially from your perspective, does not logically imply that any kind of imaginable being operates under constraints, since you are already postulating the existence of a being (your omnipotent god) that is free of constraints. Am I right? But, besides that, we were not talking about presumed constraints upon the creatures, but upon the creator. You assumed that the creator would be constrained in his choices of how to create an eye. I don’t understand why that would be true for the omnipotent being you assume to be the creator? To (4): Thanks much for that clarification! It shows me that our perceptions on the evolution of life are not fundamentally different at all. It comes down to a number of specific, detailed events that you and I assume different explanations for to bridge the gap in current understanding. I don’t have a reason to assume that our continuing inquiry into naturalistic mechanisms cannot close such gaps as it has closed so many before, whereas you assume that an intelligent designer was necessary to bridge those gaps. I can respect that perspective! If you are interested in continuing the discussion on a specific point, for example the appearance of complex animal body plans in the Cambrian, and how big the gap in actual knowledge is that we are trying to span with our separate perspectives, I’d be happy to. Otherwise, I am perfectly content to leave it at that, and thank you very much for a good discussion!madbat089
May 12, 2010
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madbat089 (#114) Thank you for your post. A few quick points in reply. (1) I entirely agree with your point about personal criticisms - politeness is something that should be expected from everyone. (2) Avise's aim was to show that the genome was poorly designed. I'd call that a scientific claim, although obviously it has philosophical implications. (3) It's impossible to imagine a vertebrate or any other creature that's completely free from constraints. Our limitations are what defines us - for example, as animals, we need food and oxygen. (4) I accept common descent. However, I believe that unintelligent processes alone could not have generated the first living thing, or the complex animal body plans that appeared in the Cambrian. I also think that many structures we see in the cell were designed, and I'm inclined to think the same holds true for some larger complex structures such as the eye. (5) I would indeed consider the successful genetic engineering of an eye that was structurally superior to the human eye as evidence against one version of ID - the hypothesis that the eye was designed by a Transcendent Being. However, the genetic engineering would have to take place in a vertebrate, and without causing detriment to it in any other respect. (6) For a follow-up on the eye, I suggest you have a look at the following recent ID posts: Why Ken Miller is right about our backward retina The eyes have it . Thank you for the interesting exchange of views.vjtorley
May 11, 2010
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Link fix: Evanescence - Bring Me To Life http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpmSHb-aRB0bornagain77
May 11, 2010
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madbat089: what is absolutely hilarious is that you gave "positive" evidence for the ID position, in that only intelligence can generate functional information, when you typed your post stating I was giving negative argumentation against materialism. You see madbat089 we know of 100% certainty that intelligence can and does generate functional information, yet we have ZERO evidence for your position that purely material processes can do as such. Moreover seeing as how the entire universe is reducible to transcendent information, i.e. the universal constants, the photons themselves, and the mathematical equations (functional information) that governs how particles will behave in this universe, and seeing as how the double slit-quantum erasure has demonstrated that consciousness must precede the "uncertain" 3-D material reality, It really isn't a question of if materialism is true anymore but it is a question of when atheistic materialists will wake up and realize their philosophy is dead and their science is bankrupt: Evanescence - "Bring Me To Life" - Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3ORuIBjjBU Wake Me O Lord Wake me O Lord from this sleep of mine To the living wonders of creation that are so fine With a "Oh, that’s nice" I shall not content NO, only when You speak shall my heart be spent Others may suffice their cravings of Awe With an "Oh Well" shrug of the wonders they saw But I know You are in each piece of reality Yes, in the wind, the stars, and even the sea So this vow to You I make No rest in me my heart will take Till Your face and hands again I see In the many waters of reality For the truth be known to You indeed That if I see You not with my heart and head I’m not really born again, but instead am dead -------------- materialism compared to theism: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dc8z67wz_5fwz42dg9 Intelligent Design - The Anthropic Hypothesis http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/bornagain77
May 11, 2010
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re #138: thanks for posting this argument, bornagain77, it is another example of a negative argument, that rests on challenging naturalistic science to demonstrate something it has not yet demonstrated. Which in and of itself is great, and exactly what the scientific process is all about. There might or might not be any papers addressing this issue as of now, but that is not really relevant to the merit of ID, because the argument contains no logical positive connection why ID would be true if H0 is true.madbat089
May 11, 2010
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madbat at #136, I believe that your third category could be considered a variation on my second; chance acting apart from natural law could arguably be a logical impossibility. And certainly plausibility should be considered; your third category is at least implausible (if not impossible), from both of our standpoints. ;-) However in my view, firstly that which is possible should constrain that which is plausible (or implausible). Either the UCA has design in the causal chain of its existence -- as a partial or complete cause -- or it came about unaided, strictly as some proportion of law and chance (material cause only). In a sense this is two sides of a very thin coin. I would again submit that a third sort of category does not exist. If it does, we should get it out in the open. (That we can mix different proportions of design/law or law/chance shouldn't be too big an issue at this point.) As long as we agree that design is logically possible as an explanation for observed effects, then I believe there is a basis for discussion. As you pointed out, the discussion moves to plausible explanations. This is based on our knowledge of things observed, with allowance made that future discoveries could very well change how we view data in evidence today. Thank you for the exchange.Apollos
May 11, 2010
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---madbat089: "what makes you think that this is MY theory or MY imagination?" Are you not the one who is posting? Are you not the one who is challenging the evidence for a designed universe in the name of self adjusting mechanisms, budding multiple universes, and creative black holes? ---"Do you want me to send you the scientific papers on those subjects? Then, I assume, you’ll want to go through the physics and math presented there and tell the scientists in question why they are wrong? Be my guest!" The mathematics and physics are there to support the argument and not the other way around. If you cannot summarize these scientists' findings and present a well-reasoned argument on their behalf, then perhaps their thinking is too muddled to be summarized. When all else fails, try a simple declarative sentence which characterizes your position. Example1: The universe may not be designed because black holes can crank out infinite multiple universes, only one of which just happens to fit our needs. If that is your position, I have a few questions about the creative powers of black holes and the origin of those powers. Example2: The universe may not be finely-tuned because self adjusting matter can create the illusion of fine-tuning. [Toronto's extravagent and liberating formulation which you enthusiastically endorsed]. If that is your position, I have a few issues about how science would be possible in such a cosmic madhouse. Example3: The universe can fine-tune itself; it has no need of a fine-tuner. Again, if that is your argument, I would like to explore your peceptions about how such things are possible if we are to take causality seriously. Of course, you could always go with the rational alternative. Example4: The fundamental physical constants in the universe are finely tuned to such an extent that an intelligent agent must have conceived and established them.StephenB
May 11, 2010
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madbat089, while your digging through papers to explain to us how extremely ordered universes order can arise from utter chaos, could you also find the paper that falsifies Abel's null hypothesis: The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/agbornagain77
May 11, 2010
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madbat089: "andrewjg, re #132: I am working on putting together the requested list – you may expect it within the next day or two!" Oh goody another creation without a Creator story,,,bornagain77
May 11, 2010
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Apollos, #133: I think what you are talking about is plausibility, rather than logic. To give you a third logical possibility outside of the logical framework of #1 and #2: 3) The UCA was the product of random processes acting outside observed natural laws. This is a perfectly logical statement - is it plausible? We can probably both agree: not very much. What we probably disagree upon is the relative plausibilities of statement #1 vs. statement #2. Which is why you operate on a priori teleology and I operate on a priori naturalism. I don't see anything wrong with either of these premises, as long as meaningful concepts can be derived from them. And I really appreciate the currently respectful manner in which you conduct this discussion! Thanks for showing that not everybody here is solely riding on cynicism and ridicule, and that you make meaningful points about meaningful issues! Vjtorely: my thanks to you on the same issue - I appreciate the respectful and meaningful exchange of arguments, and look forward to the next round! andrewjg, re #132: I am working on putting together the requested list - you may expect it within the next day or two!madbat089
May 11, 2010
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