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Mud-to-Mozart Atheology (Or, Who are the real skeptics?)

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I find the “skeptic” claim on the part of Darwinian materialists very interesting and equally illuminating. Darwinists exhibit no skepticism whatsoever about the thesis that physical stuff turned into Mozart by chance. (Don’t try to deny this, Darwinists, that is the essence of your claim. You can try to obfuscate with legion “peer-reviewed scientific papers,” but you’re not going to fool me and many others about what you are actually promoting and advocating.)

I choose Mozart not just because I am a classical concert pianist, but because his existence epitomizes everything that Darwinian theory is totally powerless to explain.

Darwinists, claiming to be skeptics, actually exhibit the antithesis of skepticism — making transparently ludicrous claims and providing a never-ending stream of unsupported extrapolations, based only on wildly imaginative speculation with no empirical support.

How is it that Darwinian atheists are the only ones who get to declare themselves legitimate skeptics? Is mud-to-Mozart-by-chance philosophy the only worldview immune to skeptical inquiry?

Comments
Maybe an easier calculation- What was the gain in FSCIO in this evolutionary process: ““Cross-species analysis revealed interesting evolutionary paths of how this gene had originated from noncoding DNA sequences: insertion of repeat elements especially Alu contributed to the formation of the first coding exon and six standard splice junctions on the branch leading to humans and chimpanzees, and two subsequent substitutions in the human lineage escaped two stop codons and created an open reading frame of 194 amino acids.” 20^194, like most of you go for? Human-Specific De Novo Protein-Coding Gene Associated with Human Brain Functions, Chuan-Yun Li, Yong Zhang, Zhanbo Wang, Yan Zhang, Chunmei Cao, Ping-Wu Zhang, Shu-Juan Lu, Xiao-Mo Li, Quan Yu, Xiaofeng Zheng, Quan Du, George R. Uhl, Qing-Rong Liu*, Liping Wei*, 2009:DrREC
October 24, 2011
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Joseph
Also the questions would be: Does a house cat contain FSCO/I? Does an amoeba contain FSCO/I?
But ID's claim is that all biological life was designed, so therefore all biological life should contain easily measurable FSCO/I. You've just directly contradicted yourself again Joseph.GinoB
October 24, 2011
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I didn't say **I** could calculate it handily. I'm not a biologist, nor am I a mathematician. I've just read the material I referred to (and other such material) and I've read where kairosfocus and others did it and explained the meaning of the values and the process.William J Murray
October 24, 2011
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Also the questions would be: Does a house cat contain FSCO/I? Does an amoeba contain FSCO/I?Joseph
October 24, 2011
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GinoB- Perhaps you could provide us with something from your position that has been rigorously defined, that way we can compare and also it will give us some insight into what you will accept. That said FCSI is merely Shannon information (rigorously defined) of a specified complexity (also rigorously defined) that has a function/ meaning. But you don't even need to worry about that. Ya see if you can demonstrate taht blind, undirected chemical processes can create new, useful and functional multi-part systems (wrt biology), then the concept of CSI being a design indicator is blown away.Joseph
October 24, 2011
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William J Murray
No. It is rigorously defined, and it can be calculated handily. You can find the definition and reference in the FAQ and Glossary on this site, or by googling “kairosfocus FSCO/I” and finding many exhaustive epxlanations and examples on this site and others.
What is the FSCO/I of a house cat? Is it more or less than the FSCO/I of an amoeba? Can you please walk me through the handily calculated cases above? I Googled "kairosfocus FSCO/I" as you suggested but couldn't find any real world examples. Thanks!GinoB
October 24, 2011
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Perhaps you should read your own sources. From your link:
Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact.
William J Murray
October 24, 2011
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GinoB: I have a hypothetical exercise for you: If we were to find an object on a newly discovered but otherwise uninteresting, uninhabited, desolate planet, and someone suspected that it might be an intelligently designed object (such as, an acient, crashed, alien spacecraft), how would one go about substantiating their suspicion scientifically?William J Murray
October 24, 2011
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GinoB, ID is falsifiable and "it looks designed tio me" is more than enough to check into the possibility, especially when there aren't any known blind, undirected processes that can account for it. Also the design metric for ID is the same as it is for archaeology and forensic science.Joseph
October 24, 2011
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"That would be the FSCO/I metric that no one has rigorously defined, or given an objective way to measure, or calculated for any real world biological objects, right?" I meant to put the above in blockquote in the above post.William J Murray
October 24, 2011
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That would be the FSCO/I metric that no one has rigorously defined, or given an objective way to measure, or calculated for any real world biological objects, right? No. It is rigorously defined, and it can be calculated handily. You can find the definition and reference in the FAQ and Glossary on this site, or by googling "kairosfocus FSCO/I" and finding many exhaustive epxlanations and examples on this site and others.William J Murray
October 24, 2011
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NickMatze, comment #1. Didn't want this to get buried underneath the ba77 paste bomb.
2. Evolution is about the evolution of populations and species. The special features of individuals, particularly rare individuals like Mozart, require additional explanation.
Please elaborate.
3. Evolution gets you to stone-age humans. Most of what is interesting after that is not evolution, it’s culture. There was rather a lot of cultural development before you got Mozart. Pretending that “evolution” is supposed to explain stuff like that is just silly. You might as well be annoyed with chemistry for not explaining Mozart.
No one is annoyed with chemistry because nowhere in its history has an a priori assertion been cemented as unquestionable fact. Is natural evolution not supposed to explain why we were neurologically capable of developing such talents? I guess you don't make the claim that RV+NS lead to the transistion from the Baroque period --> Classical --> Romantic because it is too absurd of a claim for even the most diehard Darwinian. But surely you must say that at some point the capability of such talents was evolved through RV+NS. This becomes even more unbelievable. Not only do you theorize mindless particles following the laws of physics to result in Mozart, but that his talent was made possible by RV+NS several millennia before it was even utilized! Evolution just "hit on" an open-ended mechanism, the human mind, that behaves in a way fundamentally different from any other collection of atoms in the known universe. Believe it or you're an "IDiot". Call it personal incredulity; I'll call it completely scientifically unverified.uoflcard
October 24, 2011
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William J Murray
500-1000+ bits of FSCO/I is the ID metric where the “best explanation” of any phenomena moves from “physics & chance” to ID agency.
That would be the FSCO/I metric that no one has rigorously defined, or given an objective way to measure, or calculated for any real world biological objects, right? In other words it's just another way of saying "this looks designed to me" with lots of pseudo-technical jargon added for window dressing.GinoB
October 24, 2011
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Corrected video link: Are All From Adam and Eve or The Non Mythical Adam and Eve (Dr Robert Carter) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ftwf0owpzQ Here is the related paper which, though technical, shows that the modern genetic evidence we now have actually supports Adam and Eve. Moreover, the evidence it presents from the latest genetic research is completely inexplicable to neo-Darwinism, i.e. neo-Darwinism, once again, completely falls apart upon scrutiny; (and although I don’t agree with the extreme 6000 year Young Earth model used as a starting presumption in the paper for deriving the graphs, the model, none-the-less, can be amended quite comfortable to a longer time period. Which I think provides a much more ‘comfortable’ fit to the overall body of evidence) The Non-Mythical Adam and Eve! – Refuting errors by Francis Collins and BioLogos http://creation.com/historical-adam-biologosbornagain77
October 24, 2011
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William J Murray
If one is going to claim, however, that it is a fact that X process (RM & NS) is what caused the event to occur, then it is up to those making that claim to demonstrate that X process (RM & NS) at the very least least cannot be ruled out, and should show that X process is at least theoretically (categorically) up to the challenge of generating X.
No one in science claims the theory of evolution is a fact. Here is a good description of the difference between the observed fact of evolution and the theory of evolution that explains the observed fact. Evolution as Fact and Theory It would help considerably if you learned to not confuse the two concepts.GinoB
October 24, 2011
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“Unless ID proponents provide a design metric that describes what ID is (and is not) capable of, the claim that ID can and did produce current biological features is non-falsifiable. When ID proponents refuse to provide such a metric, but rather rely on subjective “it looks designed to me” narratives that assume their conclusion, then skepticism is a proper response.”
Nobody here (that I'm aware of) is claiming that ID did produce such features as a matter of scientific fact, but rather is only claiming that ID is the best provisional explanation for some features, because the only agency or process we know of that produces well over 500-1000 bits of FSCO/I is intelligent design (that of humans). 500-1000+ bits of FSCO/I is the ID metric where the "best explanation" of any phenomena moves from "physics & chance" to ID agency. ID is unnecessary to explain FSCO/I below that amount, thus it is falsifiable in terms of the only thing it claims according to the metric it provides: "best provisional explanation". Darwinists, however, claim that RM & NS are what factually generated the features in question, without a means of falsifying it even as "best provisional explanation".William J Murray
October 24, 2011
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GinoB: The "event" in question is not, say, that "winged flight" or "sexual reproduction" became existent at some point in history, just as it would not be debated if WWII occurred. That is not the challenge. If one is going to claim, however, that it is a fact that X process (RM & NS) is what caused the event to occur, then it is up to those making that claim to demonstrate that X process (RM & NS) at the very least least cannot be ruled out, and should show that X process is at least theoretically (categorically) up to the challenge of generating X. Until this falsifiable metric is provided, it can only be a bare hypothesis that process X (RM & NS) is even capable of causing the event (macroevolutionary morphological feature) in question. The event is not being questioned; the process that caused the event is.William J Murray
October 24, 2011
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Joseph
Well FIRST one has to demonstrate a feasibility exists.
Then you must agree with the following statements, right? "Unless ID proponents provide a design metric that describes what ID is (and is not) capable of, the claim that ID can and did produce current biological features is non-falsifiable. When ID proponents refuse to provide such a metric, but rather rely on subjective “it looks designed to me” narratives that assume their conclusion, then skepticism is a proper response."GinoB
October 24, 2011
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Well FIRST one has to demonstrate a feasibility exists. By even trying to compute a probability they are giving your position more than it deserves.Joseph
October 24, 2011
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Eugene S
I agree. Darwinism is all about irresponsibly using various figures of speech.
I notice neither you nor William J Murray nor GilDodgen answered the actual question: "How do you compute the probability for the outcome of a long term feedback process like the empirically observed process of reproduction without knowing a detailed history of each step of the process?" Do you not know the answer?GinoB
October 24, 2011
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GinoB:
Asserting that a historical event didn’t happen because you can’t assign an accurate probability value to it is beyond silly.
Then it is a good thing that isn't what he is saying.Joseph
October 24, 2011
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William J Murray
If one cannot provide the probability of a theoretical, historical process in producing a currently existing feature, one has no business claiming that it is a fact that the process is responsible for the generation of that feature.
What a bizarre claim! Asserting that a historical event didn't happen because you can't assign an accurate probability value to it is beyond silly. Any number you could come up with won't change the positive evidence for the event one iota. What was the probability of WW1 happening just the way it did? What was the probability of a 10km asteroid hitting the Earth 65 MYA? Do you really want to claim those things didn't happen because we can't assign a probability value? If an event has already happened, the probability of it having occurred is 1.0GinoB
October 24, 2011
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GP, As usual, the nonsense of neo-Darwinism is exposed in a clear and concise way. It stands no scrutiny. Bravo!Eugene S
October 24, 2011
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I was taught over and over again that the accumulation of random mutations led to evolutionary change — led to new species.-Dr Lynn Margulis
"Random" means without any plan nor purposeJoseph
October 24, 2011
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GinoB:
It merely means ‘survived in its environment long enough to reproduce’
Right, no selection is taking place. And I am using the scientifically accepted definition of NS. Geez I cited Ernst Mayr, one of the architects of the modern synthesis. Then we have:
“Natural selection is the result of differences in survival and reproduction among individuals of a population that vary in one or more heritable traits.” Page 11 “Biology: Concepts and Applications” Starr fifth edition
The Origin of Theoretical Population Genetics (University of Chicago Press, 1971), reissued in 2001 by William Provine:
Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push, or adjust. Natural selection does nothing….Having natural selection select is nifty because it excuses the necessity of talking about the actual causation of natural selection. Such talk was excusable for Charles Darwin, but inexcusable for evolutionists now. Creationists have discovered our empty “natural selection” language, and the “actions” of natural selection make huge, vulnerable targets. (pp. 199-200)
Joseph
October 24, 2011
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I agree. Darwinism is all about irresponsibly using various figures of speech.Eugene S
October 24, 2011
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Elizabeth: I think you misunderstand OOL theories. Even if a " “soup” of organic molecules, possible in conjunction with some kind of porous substrate, such as clay, or ice," could be the most favourable environment for the emergence of life, still that emergence would be a rnadom and unlikely output in that system. Just think: maybe we can find a system which with some likelihood can favour the chemical formation of RNA chains (after having in some way favored the formation of the nucleotides). Well, there is probably no such environment, but let's sy we find it. The problem remains of how the right sequence for a self-replicating rNA molecule was generated. That is a random event, and its probability can be computed, because obviously there is no law of chemistry that favours the right sequence. Indeed, RNA world promoters have spent a lot of time trying to show that a simple self-replicaint RNA molecule is in the range of the probabilistic resources of a prebiotic environment. I don't agree, but the fact that they try means that they understand the probabilistic aspect of the problem.gpuccio
October 24, 2011
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Elizabeth: Yes, I believe we are getting somewhere. Random events is fine for me. Chemistry is not random, but is does not produce self replicating RNA, which I believe is the minimal target for today's fashionable OOL theories. But a random system, evolving by the laws of chemistry, could in theory generate that kind of complex molecules. I believe that's what RNA world fans do believe. If the laws of chemistry did generate self-replicating RNA by necessity, we would see that happening all the time. The idea is that it happened in long strtches of times, because it is an unlikely output of a random system evolving by chemistry laws. Random is a word whose definition is not self-evident, but is is precise just the same. I have given you the definition in one of my posts: "We call a “necessity system” one where the evolution of the system can be explicitly described with deterministic laws, and computed, with a reasonable level of precision. We call a “random system” one where we are not able to do that, but we can still describe rather well the evolution of the system by the application of some appropriate probability function. I believe those meanings are very specific, and defined."gpuccio
October 24, 2011
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What is nonsense is the part that says you need random variation before you can get random variation! But I think I'm seeing the difficulty: random variation presupposes something that varies. Perhaps you mean "random events generate a self-replicating mechanism, etc." In which case, that's better, but "random" is still problematic. What do you mean by "random"? Chemistry isn't "random" in most usages of that word, and, in any case "random" is not a precisely defined word. OK, maybe we are getting somewhere! Gotta run again...Elizabeth Liddle
October 24, 2011
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How do you compute the probability for the outcome of a long term feedback process like the empirically observed process of reproduction without knowing a detailed history of each step of the process?
If one cannot provide the probability of a theoretical, historical process in producing a currently existing feature, one has no business claiming that it is a fact that the process is responsible for the generation of that feature. Unless Darwinists provide an evolutionary metric that describes what RM & NS is (and is not) capable of, the claim that RM & NS can and did produce current evolutionary features is non-falsifiable. When Darwinists refuse to provide such a metric, but rather rely on "just so" narratives that assume their conclusion, then skepticism is a proper response.William J Murray
October 24, 2011
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