Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Natural — Supernatural FAQ

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The Natural — Supernatural trope appears so frequently, I have decided to add it to the FAQ. The following new FAQ (many thanks to StephenB and DaveScot, from whom I have cribbed freely) is now open for comment:

(38) When an ID theorist says “natural forces” cannot account for certain features of the universe, he must mean that only supernatural forces can account for these features.

“If phenomena are not naturally caused, they are supernaturally caused. There is no other alternative.” Barbara Forrest

“Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language.” Ludwig Wittgenstein

Ms. Forrest has tied herself into linguistic knots, causing her to succumb to the logical fallacy of “false dilemma.” There are three categories of causation: (a) agency, (b) law, and (c) chance. Of these three, law and chance are both “natural” causes. Agency, on the other hand, is a non-natural – but not necessarily “supernatural” cause. Any particular agent may be a human agent; a superhuman but non-divine agent; or a divine agent, and only this last category would be “supernatural.” Effects caused by an agent (whether divine, superhuman or human) leave similar traces (e.g., complex specified information, irreducible complexity) that simply cannot be replicated by effects caused by law and chance.

Ms. Forrest errs when she fails to take into account that the word “natural” has multiple shades of meaning. Her argument has a first-blush plausibility, because depending upon the context in which it is used, the word “natural” can be an antonym of “supernatural,” and in that context every phenomenon may indeed be categorized as either natural or supernatural. Ms. Forest fails to take into account, however, that in other contexts – as any thesaurus will confirm – the word “natural” can be an antonym to “technological” or “artificial.”

Now suppose an archeologist finds a spear point. Will he conclude that the spear point is a natural phenomenon? Obviously not. The whole point of calling it a spear point (instead of just “rock”) is that an agent (some ancient Indian perhaps) worked on it, and his work left traces that can be distinguished from the traces left by non-intelligent (i.e., “natural”) causes such as erosion. But wait a minute, under Ms. Forrest’s formulation, the spear point must be a natural phenomenon, because it was caused by a (presumably) non-supernatural human agent. The confusion vanishes when we realize that the archeologist is using “natural” as an antonym to “technological” or “artificial,” and not as an antonym to “supernatural.”

ID uses the term “natural” the way the archeologist uses it, not the way Ms. Forest uses it. In summary, therefore, Ms. Forest’s objection to ID is based not on the substance of ID’s theories, but on her failure to use language in a precise manner. Whether she has equivocated intentionally to muddy the waters and bring an unfair charge against ID, we will leave for others to decide.

Comments
Complaints about terminology here are not hard to understand, but I would say that goes both ways: both critics of and supporters of ID want to control the language. The term "Supernatural" wasn't invented to dismiss ID--it has a long history, as anyone knows--and it isn't always being invoked for that purpose (I grant that sometimes it can be). When one is speaking about design in nature, that hasn't been produced by human agents and probably not also by space aliens (I mean here the very properties of matter and the nature of nature, upon which all living things depend, and I don't think anyone *seriously* thinks that little green critters were responsible), then I think it's entirely appropriate to use the term "Supernatural" in connection with the "designer." The terms "unembodied mind" and "unevolved intelligence" have been used by some ID advocates, explicitly in connection with the origin of the universe and/or life itself. This is fully consistent, IMO, with the first definition of "supernatural" given in Merriam-Webster's online dictionary: "of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe." Ms Forrest certainly has her own agenda, but it's not unfair to say that ID is *partly* (certainly not entirely) about making inferences to the "supernatural." Whether it's "scientific" to do that, or not, is of course a contested matter that I will leave to one side here.Ted Davis
February 10, 2009
February
02
Feb
10
10
2009
11:01 AM
11
11
01
AM
PDT
JT, I would say an earthworm is an agent. Nature, operating freely could not and would not produce the traces they leave behind. IMHO ALL living organisms are agents. And if "Ghost Hunters" is real there appear to be non-living, but detectable, agents too.Joseph
February 10, 2009
February
02
Feb
10
10
2009
11:01 AM
11
11
01
AM
PDT
@Joseph (#1): "What that means the designer of the universe is PRE-natural." I don't agree. First of all; without nature there is no space and time. So no PRE-natural designer can exist; the designer has to be outside space and time. So you can't use a 4-dimensional term to describe (the state of) a ?-dimensional designer. No time no “PRE” period. Second. After the designer created nature(there is no PRE but there is an after) it could still exist. If the designer still exist than if it wasn't super-natural it is now. And if it isn't super-natural, but still exists, then it is not “PRE” anymore. So why not call it EXTRA-natural (as in extraterrestrial)?critiacrof
February 10, 2009
February
02
Feb
10
10
2009
10:45 AM
10
10
45
AM
PDT
It is clear that Ms. Forrest is trying to put ID into a rhetorical box. Such rhetoric is so childish. I recognize DaveScot's argument that there is nothing that we know about biology that is beyond the scope of an engineering force like unto our, but vastly more advanced. Therefore, I am quite happy to use Ms. Forrest's term if she wants to come up with a term better than "natural" that means "unguided" where the antonym is "guided", without necessarily implying "supernaturally guided". That said, whence comest this "supernatural" taboo? And what constitutes a clear definition of "supernatural" anyway? I have repeatedly contended that if the universe is the product of intelligent design, as evidence strongly suggests, then its designer must be outside of the universe. This gets close to being, of necessity, a "supernatural" agent -- it certainly would imply a "superuniversal" agent. That, of course, can be tempered with that little video that was floating around a year or two ago with "god" represented by a something akin to college student in another universe "just goofin' around". IOW, even in this context we don't, of necessity, see a necessity to accredit the credentials of the Biblical "God" to the designer of the universe. Natural v. Supernatural, therefore is a bogus argument on two fronts: 1 - "unguided" v. "guided" does not obligate a supernatural guide. 2 - The "supernatural" taboo is painfully artificial, a regilous construct that doesn't belong in science.bFast
February 10, 2009
February
02
Feb
10
10
2009
09:46 AM
9
09
46
AM
PDT
A minor point, but none of the FAQs seem to be questions. A better title might be Frequently Met Objections?Mark Frank
February 10, 2009
February
02
Feb
10
10
2009
09:38 AM
9
09
38
AM
PDT
Joseph, I though of a way to clarify my point - There are not agents and nonagents. There are only causes that are more or less complex in terms of the number of laws it takes to describe their behavior. Is an earthworm an agent? Probably not because its behavior is very primitive, predicatable and describable in terms of a handful of drives and impulses. Its decision to do one thing or the other is based on a very limited set of criteria or laws. Before you get to human, there are innumerable gradations in this department and whether or not you want to label any particular organism an agent is purely a matter of arbitrary convention.JT
February 10, 2009
February
02
Feb
10
10
2009
09:29 AM
9
09
29
AM
PDT
Don’t you understand that “agency” is an abstraction that by no means everyone accepts as being a meaningful concept?
Agencies are real. We observe what agencies can do with nature. We observe that agencies can do things with nature that nature, operating freely, couldn't do. We have investigative venues set up tp distinguish nature, operating freely from agency involvement. There are sciences dedicated to this very thing. But then again "science" may just be an abstraction that by no means everyone accepts as being a meaningful concept...Joseph
February 10, 2009
February
02
Feb
10
10
2009
09:04 AM
9
09
04
AM
PDT
Why is human agency “non-natural”?
For the same reason my car is non-natural.
Mainstream science claims that humans are a product of nature.
And if that were ever demonstrated ID would fall by the wayside.
My understanding of Barbara Forrest’s statements is that she is distinguishing between known natural (and sometimes intelligent) causes and the unknown intelligence suggested by ID theory.
She never makes the distinction. Just like she never tells anyone that "evolution" is not being debated. And she would NEVER tell anyone that her position regresses to the SAME point as ID. The agenda is clear- rule ID out by definition. All the while denying her position needs the same- something before nature.Joseph
February 10, 2009
February
02
Feb
10
10
2009
09:00 AM
9
09
00
AM
PDT
There are three categories of causation: (a) agency, (b) law, and (c) chance. Of these three, law and chance are both “natural” causes. Agency, on the other hand, is a non-natural – but not necessarily “supernatural” cause. Just one final point, then I'll have to leave for a while. Don't you understand that "agency" is an abstraction that by no means everyone accepts as being a meaningful concept? This denial does not arise from perversity, but from merely a somewhat systematic reflection on the topic. You're affirming agency as if its a self evident third category from law and nature, but people have good reason for rejecting this idea. It may have been part of an informal mode of thinking that someone proposed at some point, but does it really need to be elevated to self-evident truth? I'm not going to rehash everything I've said on the topic now.JT
February 10, 2009
February
02
Feb
10
10
2009
08:54 AM
8
08
54
AM
PDT
Why is human agency "non-natural"? This seems to require more than a simple assertion. In fact, it is one of the core differentiators between ID theorists and methodological naturalists. Mainstream science claims that humans are a product of nature. My understanding of Barbara Forrest's statements is that she is distinguishing between known natural (and sometimes intelligent) causes and the unknown intelligence suggested by ID theory. Obviously there is nothing in ID theory that requires that the unknown intelligence be supernatural, but unlike methodological naturalism, ID theory does not rule it out. JJJayM
February 10, 2009
February
02
Feb
10
10
2009
08:46 AM
8
08
46
AM
PDT
What Forrest and her ilk refer to is, of course, the "origin's" question. Namely the designer of the universe "had" to be supernatural. However that is false because in order to be "super"natural one has to be above, over or beyond the natural. And one cannot be any of those if nature does not yet exist. What that means the designer of the universe is PRE-natural.Joseph
February 10, 2009
February
02
Feb
10
10
2009
08:45 AM
8
08
45
AM
PDT
1 2 3