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Neurosurgeon: Craniopagus twins demonstrate separate “souls” without separate brains


The 21st century is not turning out at all the way pundits thought. From neurosurgeon Michael Egnor at Evolution News & Views:

It is important to understand the aspects of mind that they do share. They share some motor control, some common sensations, and probably share some aspects of imagination — that is, the ability to reconstruct sensory images (visual, auditory, olfactory, etc.).

This sharing of some aspects of the mind, but not others, is remarkably consistent with classical Thomistic dualism. In Thomistic dualism, the human soul is the composite of three powers: vegetative, sensory, and rational. Vegetative powers are what we today call autonomic physiological control — control of heart rate, control of blood pressure, control of growth, reproduction, respiration, hormonal control, etc. These are unconscious powers that make life possible in the most fundamental way.

In light of this Thomistic understanding of the soul, the abilities that Tatiana and Krista share are the material powers of the brain, which we expect them to share, because they share brain matter. What they don’t appear to share is the immaterial aspect of the soul — reasoning in an abstract sense, and personal identity, individuality, etc. They are separate souls who share some material brain tissue, and thus share some material powers of the mind. They do not share immaterial powers of the mind, because immaterial powers can’t be shared, because immaterial powers aren’t material things that can be common to two people. More.

Oh, but wait! Isn’t consciousness an illusion anyway? There, that’s good for another few rounds of tenure.

See also: 11-year-old conjoined twins have a connected brain, see through each others’ eyes, but have separate minds Sobering thought: Had the girls been aborted or left to die, we would never know what they can help us understand about how the human mind really works. We’d be stuck with the elegant essays fronting naturalism. Much to be preferred in many quarters.

The difference between science and reductionism Chaberek: Reductionism begins not when scientists speak about material and efficient causes alone, but when they (or anyone else) claim that scientific knowledge is the only possible type of knowledge, or that science explains everything, including the mystery of life.

Nature, as defined today, cannot be all there is. Science demonstrates that.


Post-modern science: The illusion of consciousness sees through itself

more [popular stuff] on brain and consciousness: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-07/david-chalmers-and-the-puzzle-of-consciousness/8679884 It seems that there is a hole in our scientific picture of the world, what philosopher Joseph Levine called an "explanatory gap". Dionisio
here's an interesting report on a most sophisticated information system that we still don't comprehend well enough [to put it nicely]: https://consumer.healthday.com/disabilities-information-11/amputation-news-720/boy-s-double-hand-transplant-changed-his-brain-729122.html control systems engineers and computer scientists would be in awe at the sight of such a fascinating system, thinking they are just dreaming. but someone out there would assure them that all that is the product of RV+NS+...+T+...? Dionisio
For Dionisio and others who would like to educate themselves...
Well. That leaves me out. Mung
Thank you, J-Mac. I'll have a look. Truth Will Set You Free
For Dionisio and others who would like to educate themselves on the theory of quantum consciousness I highly recommend Roger Penrose's books: The Emperor's New Mind: Concerning Computers, Minds, and the Laws of Physic https://www.amazon.ca/Emperors-New-Mind-Concerning-Computers/dp/0192861980/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1512495775&sr=8-5&keywords=roger+penrose+quantum And Shadows of the Mind: A Search for the Missing Science of Consciousness Paperback – Aug 15 1996 https://www.amazon.ca/Shadows-Mind-Missing-Science-Consciousness/dp/0195106466/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1512495940&sr=8-7&keywords=roger+penrose+quantum I think every religious and not religious person interested in consciousness should read them... They are not easy books if one doesn't know much about quantum mechanics but they are surely worth to read.... J-Mac
@63 Dionisio, I have work to do, can’t spend too much time ‘debating’ beliefs. Just in case you have not realized it, you have been debating you own beliefs... you have no evidence for by the way... All you have are assumptions of your interpretation of some bible passages that make no sense in context of others... They are not even logical or compatible with what God should stand for... I have presented you with a possible scientific explanation of consciousness which sheds some light on what consciousness/mind/self-awareness could be... All you have is that you can't accept that our consciousness is information... Just in case you didn't realized it, the whole foundation of the universe is information... J-Mac
J-Mac, Are you saying that you and I and everybody else are just quantum information with physical bodies? I have work to do, can't spend too much time 'debating' beliefs. No need for you to respond my latest comments or questions. Let's conclude our chat right here. You may continue writing whatever you want. Maybe other folks will engage in discussions with you. Dionisio
J-Mac @59: The answer is @55. Read it carefully. It's clear. Maybe other commenters here can give you a hand? Dionisio
J-Mac @60: "quantum information need a processor with is our brain to be or feel self-awareness; to feel the experiences, to recall memories" quantum information is self-aware? quantum information feels experiences? Huh? Say what? Can you elaborate on that? Also, would you mind answering the questions @58? Thanks. Dionisio
@57, What do you mean by “our consciousness can be aware”? If the soul you believe lives on after death, it has to have the same properties that make us human; consciousness, self-awareness, memories...etc. I suspect that our consciousness is quantum which pretty much boils down to information...But that information is useless unless there is a processor to process that information and in our case it has to be our brain... Just like bits of information are not really of any value unless it can be processed or interpreted by an information processing device (movie on an DVD is useless unless one has a DVD player) Same seem to apply to what you call a soul and I call quantum information...A soul or quantum information need a processor with is our brain to be or feel self-awareness; to feel the experiences, to recall memories...etc Remember; near death experiences appear to be hallucinations; The anesthesia totally disables consciousness which shouldn't happen if a soul is an entity that functions on its own and doesn't need a body.... J-Mac
@55Dionisio, If Jesus has only one church, why there are so many different and conflicting teaching within one church? The teaching of the soul is just one example...Some believe it, some don't... J-Mac
J-Mac @54: Can you explain-using quantum physics information- the behavior of Sophie Scholl at her trial and when she met her mother shortly before execution? Can you explain your own experience of feelings and emotions at this point? What experiences all that? Your brain? Then who are you? Please, make it easy for the rest of us to understand. Note that my reading comprehension is rather deficient. Other folks in this blog are quick thinkers and get things much faster than I do. A discussion with me may turn pretty boring early on. I'll appreciate your patience. Try to imitate our beloved Italian doctor GP, who so nicely deals with his dissenting interlocutors and answers even my dumb questions very patiently and clearly, though a little too technical sometimes. :) Thanks. Dionisio
J-Mac @54: What do you mean by "our consciousness can be aware"? Dionisio
J-Mac @52: Salvation is not based on the number of accumulated good deeds. Salvation is offered to us by God's grace through genuine repentance and faith in Christ, who died on the cross in order to save His followers. His followers want to trust, obey and love Him. Once we are His, nothing can separate us from Him. It is written. Christ knows our true motives. Dionisio
J-Mac @52: The church that Jesus founded in the first century has no denominations. He's the head of His church, which is the union of His followers, who currently could be in different denominations. Denominations are human-conceived segregations according to different interpretations of biblical text on minor issues. There's only one valid interpretation of the Bible: God's version. I'm usually wrong on different things. However, God's never wrong. Dionisio
@Truth Will Set You Free and Dionisio, I'd like to stress again that I have some scientific bases to believe that our consciousness/mind/self-awareness is quantum... which possibly survives or it is preserved after death... as per the law of conservation of quantum information... What I have no proof of is that that our consciousness is independent of our brain; can function or be aware on its own especially without microtubules in neurons... Here are some facts that seem to support that: 1. General anesthesia totally disables consciousness by preventing the micro-tubules from quantum vibrations while leaving ALL other brain functions normal 2. Near-death-experiences have been proven to be hallucinations as per experiments in the operating rooms with patients who experienced clinical deaths. Patients who had near death experiences described the operating room and people they had seen before application of general anesthesia. What they didn't know was that they were moved to a different operating room, with different "decorations" and different crew dressed differently who were operating on them. This proved that people who had near death experiences were recalling floating over the operating room and people in the operating room they had memorized before they were put out of consciousness... 4. Neurosurgeons have been able to stimulate "near death experiences" while accidentally applying electric stimulation in a part of the brain of patients that were awake during brain surgery... Dr. Egnor should know something about that... but because he so strongly believes in the immortality of the soul...he is unlikely to investigate this phenomenon... J-Mac
@51 Truth Will Set You Free I found the video confusing... What do you like about it? J-Mac
@ Truth Will Set You Free and Dionisio, Have you ever considered that you might be wrong; that the way you worship is not acceptable? After all there are 36000 Christian denominations in the world...and they can't all be right, can they? After all you call yourself Truth Will Set You Free which can only indicate one thing to me... And, if there is only one truth, as it should be, what happens if both of you end-up going to hell for eternity? Do you think it would be fair? After all you try to do the right things as you see it but it may not be enough...possibly or it could not be what God wants... Let's say one of you deliberately chooses to go against God will. Would it be fair to torment you for eternity because you chose to disobey God for 60-80 years? Makes no sense to me... It wouldn't be just in my eyes how could it be in God's? BTW: Had Satan known that for helping Adam and Eve to disobey and sin he was going to receive the reward of being in charge of hell and torments of sinful souls for eternity? Seems like a really good deal he manage to cut with God... If I were some narcissistic psycho, it would be a bonus to me and not a punishment... J-Mac
J-Mac @ 48: That is your choice to make. It is a deeply personal choice. I would be interested in your thoughts about the following video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxzuh5Xx5G4 Truth Will Set You Free
Truth Will Set You Free @47: "The tormenting will be conducted by more powerful beings/souls who enjoy inflicting pain and misery on others. Imagine the worst prison on Earth…with no guards." Good point. Dionisio
J-Mac, The last thing I will compare to God is myself, though nothing compares to Him. Nothing. If God were anything like the man-made 'gods' many people have in their imaginations or in their wishful thinking, I would rather be a strong atheist. Making analogies of God with His creatures denotes a complete misunderstanding of God. I can't create life or make a dead person live. God can. He created us and also can graciously give us eternal life through saving faith in Christ. Adam and Eve spiritually died as result of their disobedience, but they got a second opportunity to reconcile themselves to God. It was up to them to accept or reject God's gracious offer. But you don't have to understand or accept this. It is written that the way to salvation is narrow and difficult. Dionisio
@Truth Will Set You Free Not a bad response but... There is a lot of buts... But if a loving God is going to torment me for eternity for what I have done in my VERY SHORT life, then he doesn't deserve to be worshiped.. I'd rather become an atheist... if this is true... J-Mac
J-Mac @ 46: Good questions that have been pondered by Christians (and non-Christians) for 2,000 years. Perhaps there is more going on than you can understand. You are a mere human being with very limited knowledge and understanding. Perhaps God seeks your faith, your trust, that all things will be made right in the end. God apparently wanted to love (and be loved by) other beings/souls, and the only way to do that (as far as I can tell) is to create a world in which such beings/souls have free will to trust God or not. Those who do spend eternity with God. Those who don't spend eternity without God...and all the other beings/souls who put their trust/faith in other things. C.S. Lewis was right when he wrote: There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' (The Great Divorce, Chapter 9) Also, as for people being tormented in Hell, it is not God doing the tormenting. The tormenting will be conducted by more powerful beings/souls who enjoy inflicting pain and misery on others. Imagine the worst prison on Earth...with no guards. Truth Will Set You Free
Dionisio, If God loved us first, why didn't He stop Adam and Eve from sinning since He knew it was going to happen? If you knew your son was going to overdose and die, and due to that go to hell to be tormented for eternity, wouldn't you stop him if you were omnipotent? It makes logical sense that a loving father would do it if he were both all loving and all powerful... So, something doesn't add up in your claims...because of the overflow of grace you are getting.. J-Mac
J-Mac, Your choice. Nothing makes some people more angry than hearing the name of Christ. It’s been like that from the beginning. It’s written that it’ll get worse as we approach the end of this age of grace. Anger is a characteristic of those who hate their loving Creator. Dionisio
Dionisio, I will not make an effort to understand things because you wish them to be such...grace and such don't cut it for me...Why don't you get it? Your are talking nonsense you want to believe... Man-made stuff you are so preoccupied with... J-Mac
J-Mac @39: Please, make an effort to understand this, which is not difficult at all. Adam and Eve lived for quite a while after their spiritual separation from their loving Creator. Hence, they had a second opportunity to reconcile with God. That's the essence of the Gospel message. We all are sinners, but God in His immense love, graciously has offered the way to get back to where we once belonged. Sometimes it may seem like a long and winding road that leads to our Savior, but the way is well documented in the Christian scriptures, available to all who really desire it. There's not excuse left. God loved us first. The ball is in our court now. It's our turn to reciprocate with love too. Unless we don't want to. Our choice. Now we belong in the bottom of the pit. But God offers us the way to get out of that horrendous but well deserved eternal destiny. However, some might not desire to spend eternity worshiping God in timeless singing. To many of us, that's all we would like to do. The current age of grace will end. Love Him with all your mind and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. That does it all. Grace alone. Faith alone. Christ alone. Scripture alone. All the glory to God alone. Absolutely priceless. Dionisio
Axel, Your comment may turn out to be more interesting than I'd thought...I have some experts and scholars over for bridge tonight, so we will have some fun... possibly...:-) J-Mac
Axel, I will try to digest your comment and respond later today or tomorrow... J-Mac
PaV, Spare your theological blather...I was raised Catholic and I know the so-called theological nonsense...based on philosophy and ideas that just do not add up... J-Mac
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