Intelligent Design Mind Naturalism Neuroscience

Neurosurgeon: Craniopagus twins demonstrate separate “souls” without separate brains

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The 21st century is not turning out at all the way pundits thought. From neurosurgeon Michael Egnor at Evolution News & Views:

It is important to understand the aspects of mind that they do share. They share some motor control, some common sensations, and probably share some aspects of imagination — that is, the ability to reconstruct sensory images (visual, auditory, olfactory, etc.).

This sharing of some aspects of the mind, but not others, is remarkably consistent with classical Thomistic dualism. In Thomistic dualism, the human soul is the composite of three powers: vegetative, sensory, and rational. Vegetative powers are what we today call autonomic physiological control — control of heart rate, control of blood pressure, control of growth, reproduction, respiration, hormonal control, etc. These are unconscious powers that make life possible in the most fundamental way.

In light of this Thomistic understanding of the soul, the abilities that Tatiana and Krista share are the material powers of the brain, which we expect them to share, because they share brain matter. What they don’t appear to share is the immaterial aspect of the soul — reasoning in an abstract sense, and personal identity, individuality, etc. They are separate souls who share some material brain tissue, and thus share some material powers of the mind. They do not share immaterial powers of the mind, because immaterial powers can’t be shared, because immaterial powers aren’t material things that can be common to two people. More.

Oh, but wait! Isn’t consciousness an illusion anyway? There, that’s good for another few rounds of tenure.

See also: 11-year-old conjoined twins have a connected brain, see through each others’ eyes, but have separate minds Sobering thought: Had the girls been aborted or left to die, we would never know what they can help us understand about how the human mind really works. We’d be stuck with the elegant essays fronting naturalism. Much to be preferred in many quarters.

The difference between science and reductionism Chaberek: Reductionism begins not when scientists speak about material and efficient causes alone, but when they (or anyone else) claim that scientific knowledge is the only possible type of knowledge, or that science explains everything, including the mystery of life.

Nature, as defined today, cannot be all there is. Science demonstrates that.

and

Post-modern science: The illusion of consciousness sees through itself

69 Replies to “Neurosurgeon: Craniopagus twins demonstrate separate “souls” without separate brains

  1. 1
    Dionisio says:

    Very interesting.
    Who knows what genetic or epigenetic alterations may have led to such issues.
    In a way this reminds us -once again- that had we all remained in Eden none of this would have happened.
    But we chose to do it our own ways, a la Frank Sinatra.
    Hence we died spiritually.
    And the whole creation groans in agony.
    Until the Lord comes back.
    Hopefully, by then those two beautiful souls will be sanctified, living forever in new perfected bodies in the presence of their loving Creator, singing hallelujah!
    Many souls now dwelling within healthier bodies will not be part of the kingdom of God, hence will miss that joy forever.

  2. 2
    J-Mac says:

    If Adam and Eve were created not to die, why would they need a soul?

    Unless God had known that they would sin in the first place and that’s why He gave them souls, so that they could redeem themselves out of sin…

  3. 3
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac,

    God is absolutely omniscient, omnipotent and sovereign, hence He does everything according to the purpose of His own sovereign will, not yours or mine.

    At the same time He’s absolutely just, loving, merciful, gracious.

    We are His creatures, He’s our Creator, hence it’s not of our business to tell what God should or shouldn’t have done.

    If God were anything like the man-made ‘gods’ described by those who don’t know Him, I would be an atheist, or at least an agnostic.

    You may want to read the Christian scriptures translated to your own language, which I assume is English. Mine is Spanish. Ask God to open your eyes and to give you wisdom, so you can see and understand Him as much as He wants.

    I believe that God loves you, because He proved that He loves me, and I’m much worse than you’re.

    God has graciously offered the Way for us to get back to where we once belonged and enjoy His glorious presence forever.

    Don’t let time go by. This is the moment. Tomorrow it might be too late.

  4. 4
    Dionisio says:

    “Human beings alone have rational powers, which is the ability to think abstractly, without reference to particular things. Abstract mathematics, and abstract thought about logic or morality, are examples of rational powers of the human soul that are not shared by plants or animals.” – Michael Egnor

  5. 5
    Dionisio says:

    “[…] rational powers of the soul — abstract thought — are immaterial powers. They are not caused by matter, although material processes, such as wakefulness, normal physiology, vision, imagination, etc., are necessary for normal expression of immaterial abstract thought.” – Michael Egnor.

  6. 6
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac @2:

    Nobody can redeem himself/herself out of sin. That’s absurd.

    By Gold’s grace, complete redemption was offered at the cross.

    There’s nothing comparable to that. Nothing.

    It is written. Read it yourself. Don’t wait longer.

  7. 7
    kurx78 says:

    The classical concept of “soul”, at least the christian version is way too vague, way too simple.
    Right now I’m reading some of the works of CG Jung and Aquinas and I’ve come to the realization that the truth is incredibly more complicated after all.
    Maybe the only thing in the universe that is unchanged is change itself.

  8. 8
    Dionisio says:

    kurx78,

    God made the universe where change is the only thing that doesn’t change according to you.
    God doesn’t change. His creation may change constantly.
    God is beyond time and space. Absolutely unchanged.
    But yes, here everything is changing constantly.

  9. 9
    EricMH says:

    We can think about infinity, but everything physical is finite. Therefore, the part of us that can think about infinity is not physical, i.e. the soul.

  10. 10
    Dionisio says:

    EricMH,
    Interesting comment.

  11. 11
    Origenes says:

    No one seems to wonder how in the blue blazes all these new brain connections came about. One thing is for sure: there is no evolutionary explanation whatsoever.

  12. 12
    J-Mac says:

    Dionisio,

    1. If Adam and Eve were created not to die; to live forever, why would they need an immortal soul?

    Can you answer this?

  13. 13
    J-Mac says:

    Dionisio,

    God is absolutely omniscient

    According to this statement and common belief, God must have known that Adam and Eve would sin, before He had created them…

    Yes or No answer only!

  14. 14
    EricMH says:

    J-Mac, bodily immortality is related to but distinct from the existence of the soul. Adam and Eve need a soul because physical matter cannot be alive, be human, have things like a rational mind, imagination, free will, creativity, etc. In short, the soul is an essential part of what makes a human being a human being. Without a soul, the body would just be an inert collection of organic chemicals, like it is when a person dies and the soul leaves the body.

  15. 15
    butifnot says:

    J-Mac I believe God created us as a union of body and soul and we were meant to exist that way. Physical death is an ‘unnatural’ rending of the two

  16. 16
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac @12:

    1. If Adam and Eve were created not to die; to live forever, why would they need an immortal soul?

    Can you answer this?

    I believe that they were created as souls dwelling in physical bodies.
    Both things go together.
    We were created in Imago Dei, hence spiritual beings with physical bodies that don’t decay.
    But we chose to do things our own way instead of God’s way.
    From that moment on, our bodies started to decay. And we died spiritually. Things got messed up badly.

  17. 17
    J-Mac says:

    @14, 15, 16

    Genesis 3:19

    “19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.”

    Nothing is mentioned about the soul living on or going to heaven or to hell…

    I guess the trip to hell was going to be a surprise?

  18. 18
    J-Mac says:

    Still waiting for @13 Dionisio…

  19. 19
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac @13:

    Yes.

  20. 20
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac @17:

    you are dust.
    Man’s earthly body makes physical death possible.

    to dust you shall return.
    Physical death is both a judgment and a blessing. It renders all activity vain, but delivers the redeemed from earthly frustration and opens the way to an eternal salvation that outlasts the grave (Ps. 73:24; Prov. 14:32).

    Comment taken from the Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries.

    You may want to read carefully the first comment in this thread. The physical problem described in this OP wouldn’t exist had we stayed in Eden. We messed it up. But God knew it. Actually, since the beginning of this universe God knew Christ will be crucified for the sins of this world and He knew who among humans will be a follower of Christ and who will be just a fan and who will be against Him and who will be indifferent.

  21. 21
    Dionisio says:

    @20 addendum

    return to the ground.
    I.e., to die (cf. 2:7). Man, by sin, became mortal. Although he did not die the moment he ate (by God’s mercy), he was changed immediately and became liable to all the sufferings and miseries of life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever. Adam lived 930 years (5:5).

    Comment copied from the MacArthur Study Bible (NKJV)

  22. 22
    Dionisio says:

    @20 addendum

    Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all humans because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

    [Romans 5:12-14]

    [just as sin came into the world]
    Not a particular sin, but the inherent propensity to sin entered the human realm; humans became sinners by nature[*].
    [Yet death reigned]
    But even without the law, death was universal. All humans from Adam to Moses were subject to death […]

    [*] free will?
    [Comment copied from the MacArthur Study Bible]

    just as sin came into.
    Paul here begins a comparison that is not concluded until vv. 18–21. The comparison is interrupted by a meditation extending through v. 17.

    through one man.
    Death is not natural to humanity, but is the direct result of sin (Gen. 2:17).

    because all sinned.
    The universal reign of death is the consequence of sin. Paul does not explain how all mankind was involved with Adam in his sinning, but simply asserts the fact. All sinned in the sin of Adam.

    [Comment taken from the Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries]

  23. 23
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac,

    Do you want more on this?
    Just let me know. Thanks.

  24. 24
    Dionisio says:

    The twins in the OP have caused more serious discussions in this world than all of us “pseudo philosophers” together have.
    Something to think about.

  25. 25
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac,

    Have your questions been answered?

  26. 26
    J-Mac says:

    Dionisio,

    If God had known that Adam and Eve would sin, as you claim, there is nothing else to be said…He is responsible for all the evil in the world…He is not loving and He is not omnipotent… etc…

  27. 27
    Dionisio says:

    @22 follow up

    but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for when you eat of it you shall surely die.

    [Genesis 2:17]

    you shall not eat.
    This unique exclusion, an exception to humans’ dominion over the creation (1:29), confronted them with the Creator’s rule over them.

    [Comment taken from the Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries]

    surely die.
    To “die” has the basic idea of separation. It can mean spiritual separation, physical separation, and/or eternal separation. At the moment of their sin, Adam and Eve died

    [Comment copied from the MacArthur Study Bible]

  28. 28
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac @26:

    That’s your own opinion, which I respect, but has no serious basis whatsoever.

    Perhaps God used your initial questions to make me present the Christian scriptures to other anonymous readers of this thread, because they are the lost sheep who will recognize the voice of their Shepherd and will gladly go back to Him, thus restoring the initial relationship with our Creator that Adam and Eve enjoyed in Eden before they disobeyed.

    God could be using you even in your rebellious attitude in order to bring others to Himself. Thus, you’re useful to God even in your rejection of Him.

    It happened to Jacob’s oldest sons in the Genesis story about Joseph.

    Therefore I’m thankful for this opportunity that -through your questions- God has given to me in order to present His message to anonymous readers, onlookers, lurkers. Hallelujah!

  29. 29
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac,

    If God were anything like the ‘gods’ that His detractors imagine, prefer or describe, I would be a convinced atheist. Thank God I’m not, though years ago I was a proud member of that lonely hearts club band.
    Yes, I was lost, but now I’m found. Was blind, but now I see.
    A long and winding road led me to my Lord of lords and King of kings.
    Amazing grace that saved a wretch like me.

  30. 30
    Dionisio says:

    Origenes @11:

    Good point. Thanks.

  31. 31
    Dionisio says:

    EricMH @14:

    Interesting comment.

    Apparently J-Mac @17 referred to your comment?

  32. 32
    Dionisio says:

    butifnot @15:

    Interesting comment.

    Apparently J-Mac @17 referred to your comment?

  33. 33
    J-Mac says:

    Dionisio,

    Why would God lie about the consequences of Adam and Eve’s sin? If he had told them that they were going to die for eating the forbidden apple, why would he torture them for eternity instead, and what’s most appalling, without telling them about it??? Do you think that is fair or just?

    If I’m an atheist or a rebellious believer in God, and I deliberately sin knowing that the punishment for it is death, why would I be tortured for eternity? Even human courts don’t do that; don’t sentence people to be tortured…why would a loving God?

  34. 34
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac,

    Please, help me to understand your questions.
    They don’t seem clear to me.
    You may want to rephrase them?
    Or maybe other commenters here can clarify them for me?
    Thanks.

  35. 35
    Axel says:

    J-Mac, I often wonder about the conflation of our Christian belief qua credence, and it’s embodiment via commitment.

    In Jesus’ own day, merely to follow him and listen to his preaching, under threat of banishment from the Synagogue – no mean threat in a small, pastoral, theocratic society – would have required what constitutes faith/commitment, and surely a predisposition to believe in him, other than from simple curiosity.

    As regards the latter, the occasion when Jesus told his listeners that they would have to eat his body and drink his blood, and from that time, many ceased to do so, springs to mind as an example of the latter, more or less idle curiosity.

    Hence, a certain leap of prevenient faith is predicated by this Christian commitment (over and above the mere credence of the demons, who also ‘believe and tremble’), and mysteries such as you have raised will remain, while we draw breath in this vale of tears.

    Consequently, in this regard, the matter of ‘wishful thinking’, which I believe I alluded to in some earlier posts, and which is a common jibe levelled at Christians by atheists, comes to the fore.

    Why should the truth be cold, ugly, not to be wished for, not to be hoped for, undesirable. It’s not. It’s dynamic – all the way up, even exceeding the ambit of the turtles downward trajectory).

    For the Christian, too, as a result of the foregoing, there is indeed a significant element of choosing to believe what we want to, since it is an area that is both impossibly abstruse to the unaided human intellect, and yet by most people is, at one stage or another of their life, of vital significance: “Suppose it’s true. What about an eternity in hell?” Although, I believe there are, so to speak, natural- born atheists, who are really just not ‘fussed’ about it, one way or another. They just don’t believe, and that’s that.

    However, both of the main parties will have “eyes to see, and ears to hear” what tends to reinforce their own belief and commitment. A Christian’s lack of the ‘heart’ for a commitment to Christ, when the going gets painful and hard, will drop away, losing his relatively shallow ‘faith’ qua belief.

    As a Christian (in the broad sense, which includes still remaining a sinner), I can tell you from my – in the above sense, “subjectve” experience – that however, unbelievably sorely you are tried, you will always emerge stronger, and with a deeper and more joyful faith. Not merely in an abstract sense, but with a feeling of the real, personal love of God for yourself and of others, his constant accompaniment of you, and that of your favourite angels and saints; in short a heavely family of great love, beauty and, despite sometimes appearances to the contrary, constancy.

    As regards the “free will” question you raised, an indication of the answer to your question may have been given by Christ by his acceptance, except on a few rare occasions and for our benefit, of the limitations on the intelligence of his fully-human nature, apparently, and surely unsurprisingly, nevertheless, so much more profound than that of everyone else.

    Of course, God in heaven does not need to accept any limitation on his knowledge and understanding, but surely, it is conceivable, nevertheless, that He chose not to know the outcome of that gift of free choice, in terms of those who would choose an eternity of torment in hell.

    However, at the end of the day, the difference between you and us, here, is that we can see that there are mysteries far beyond what we can ever merit to understand even with God’s grace. As the Psalmist put it, we would have to be as old as God (and some) to know his thoughts.

    Whereas you appear to have the hubristic ‘cockiness’* about knowedge and wisdom that is natural to even the most decent unbelievers. Ironically, on that same basis, such an interest is itself meritorious in its own way. As with our human family relationships (of which heaven is a most sublime template), a cold indifference is the killer, not arguing and bickering.

    *not meant rancorously.

  36. 36
    Axel says:

    Still and all, for the purposes of his unfailing Providence, that determination not to know the detals concerning the Last Judgment, which I conjectured on the basis of Jesus accepting the cognitive limitations of our earthly, if in his case, sinless, human nature, would seem to present a major problem.

    It was a conjecture concerning a question – your question – that I believe we have to concede is insoluble by the mortal human mind. The intelligence all the children of light will have in heaven, which Aldous Huxley called the ‘integrative’ intelligence, may make explain it fully. Though, ABSOLUTELY PIVOTAL in all of this, is that the very starting point of all our discursive speculations, is that God knows best. PERIOD!

    For us to even imagine that we are more compassionate than Christ is surely the most lamentable of follies.

  37. 37
    PaV says:

    J-Mac @13:

    Try learning a little about theology.

    I’m a Catholic. At the Easter Vigil Service, the Exultet, a song of joy, is sung. In it, this phrase is intoned: “O happy fault of Adam, that brought for us so great a Redeemer!”

    Christianity proclaims that there will be a “new Heaven and a new earth.” All will be made new in Christ. And then, “every tear will be wiped away.”

    We live in an imperfect world since God uses this imperfect world to teach his children how to love. (How could you extend charity to the poor in a world where there are no poor?)

    Do you see how impoverished the “materialist” world is?

    It only takes once exception to destroy materialist thought. Here’s one for you. St. Charbel, who died in 1898:

    A few months after his death, a bright light was seen surrounding his tomb and the superiors opened it to find his body still intact. Since that day, a blood-like liquid flows from his body. Experts and doctors are unable to give medical explanations for the incorruptibility and flexibility. In the years 1950 and 1952, his tomb was opened and his body still had the appearance of a living one.[6] The official site[7] mentions: In this century his grave has been opened four times, the last time being in 1955, and each time “it has been noticed that his bleeding body still has its flexibility as if it were alive”; no mentioning of later openings.

    [From the Wikipedia page for St. Charbel]

    How does your feeble materialist mind-set explain this? Want to venture a ‘guess’?

  38. 38
    bb says:

    J-Mac,

    1. If Adam and Eve were created not to die; to live forever, why would they need an immortal soul?

    Because they were created to be immortal, conscious beings. What’s so difficult about it? A physical body that was intended to be immortal, and conscious, would require an immortal soul to remain conscious through the duration of life.

  39. 39
    J-Mac says:

    Dionisio,

    Let’s say you have a son…You tell him not to do drugs because the consequence of the drug abuse would be death…

    Your son chooses to do drugs and dies…

    However, after death, your son finds out that you didn’t tell him the whole truth; that he has an immortal soul that lives on and either goes to heaven to be with you or goes to hell to be tormented for eternity…

    Since he made a choice to do drugs and pay for that choice with death, now he is convinced that you lied to him because you didn’t tell him ALL of the consequences of his disobedience…
    Now imagine that in this illustration:

    you = God

    and your son = Adam

    If what you say it’s true, God lied to Adam and Eve by not telling them all the consequences of their sin…

    Since you claim that God apparently had known that Adam and Eve would sin, this story becomes even more bizarre…

  40. 40
    J-Mac says:

    PaV,

    Spare your theological blather…I was raised Catholic and I know the so-called theological nonsense…based on philosophy and ideas that just do not add up…

  41. 41
    J-Mac says:

    Axel,

    I will try to digest your comment and respond later today or tomorrow…

  42. 42
    J-Mac says:

    Axel,

    Your comment may turn out to be more interesting than I’d thought…I have some experts and scholars over for bridge tonight, so we will have some fun… possibly…:-)

  43. 43
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac @39:

    Please, make an effort to understand this, which is not difficult at all.

    Adam and Eve lived for quite a while after their spiritual separation from their loving Creator.

    Hence, they had a second opportunity to reconcile with God.

    That’s the essence of the Gospel message.

    We all are sinners, but God in His immense love, graciously has offered the way to get back to where we once belonged.

    Sometimes it may seem like a long and winding road that leads to our Savior, but the way is well documented in the Christian scriptures, available to all who really desire it.

    There’s not excuse left.

    God loved us first. The ball is in our court now. It’s our turn to reciprocate with love too. Unless we don’t want to. Our choice.

    Now we belong in the bottom of the pit. But God offers us the way to get out of that horrendous but well deserved eternal destiny.

    However, some might not desire to spend eternity worshiping God in timeless singing. To many of us, that’s all we would like to do.

    The current age of grace will end.

    Love Him with all your mind and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

    That does it all.

    Grace alone.
    Faith alone.
    Christ alone.
    Scripture alone.
    All the glory to God alone.

    Absolutely priceless.

  44. 44
    J-Mac says:

    Dionisio,
    I will not make an effort to understand things because you wish them to be such…grace and such don’t cut it for me…Why don’t you get it?

    Your are talking nonsense you want to believe…
    Man-made stuff you are so preoccupied with…

  45. 45
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac,
    Your choice.
    Nothing makes some people more angry than hearing the name of Christ.
    It’s been like that from the beginning.
    It’s written that it’ll get worse as we approach the end of this age of grace.
    Anger is a characteristic of those who hate their loving Creator.

  46. 46
    J-Mac says:

    Dionisio,

    If God loved us first, why didn’t He stop Adam and Eve from sinning since He knew it was going to happen?

    If you knew your son was going to overdose and die, and due to that go to hell to be tormented for eternity, wouldn’t you stop him if you were omnipotent?

    It makes logical sense that a loving father would do it if he were both all loving and all powerful…

    So, something doesn’t add up in your claims…because of the overflow of grace you are getting..

  47. 47

    J-Mac @ 46: Good questions that have been pondered by Christians (and non-Christians) for 2,000 years. Perhaps there is more going on than you can understand. You are a mere human being with very limited knowledge and understanding. Perhaps God seeks your faith, your trust, that all things will be made right in the end.

    God apparently wanted to love (and be loved by) other beings/souls, and the only way to do that (as far as I can tell) is to create a world in which such beings/souls have free will to trust God or not. Those who do spend eternity with God. Those who don’t spend eternity without God…and all the other beings/souls who put their trust/faith in other things.

    C.S. Lewis was right when he wrote: There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’ (The Great Divorce, Chapter 9)

    Also, as for people being tormented in Hell, it is not God doing the tormenting. The tormenting will be conducted by more powerful beings/souls who enjoy inflicting pain and misery on others. Imagine the worst prison on Earth…with no guards.

  48. 48
    J-Mac says:

    @Truth Will Set You Free

    Not a bad response but…
    There is a lot of buts…
    But if a loving God is going to torment me for eternity for what I have done in my VERY SHORT life, then he doesn’t deserve to be worshiped.. I’d rather become an atheist… if this is true…

  49. 49
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac,

    The last thing I will compare to God is myself, though nothing compares to Him. Nothing.

    If God were anything like the man-made ‘gods’ many people have in their imaginations or in their wishful thinking, I would rather be a strong atheist.
    Making analogies of God with His creatures denotes a complete misunderstanding of God.

    I can’t create life or make a dead person live.

    God can. He created us and also can graciously give us eternal life through saving faith in Christ.

    Adam and Eve spiritually died as result of their disobedience, but they got a second opportunity to reconcile themselves to God. It was up to them to accept or reject God’s gracious offer.

    But you don’t have to understand or accept this.

    It is written that the way to salvation is narrow and difficult.

  50. 50
    Dionisio says:

    Truth Will Set You Free @47:

    “The tormenting will be conducted by more powerful beings/souls who enjoy inflicting pain and misery on others. Imagine the worst prison on Earth…with no guards.”

    Good point.

  51. 51

    J-Mac @ 48: That is your choice to make. It is a deeply personal choice. I would be interested in your thoughts about the following video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxzuh5Xx5G4

  52. 52
    J-Mac says:

    @
    Truth Will Set You Free and Dionisio,

    Have you ever considered that you might be wrong; that the way you worship is not acceptable? After all there are 36000 Christian denominations in the world…and they can’t all be right, can they?
    After all you call yourself Truth Will Set You Free which can only indicate one thing to me…

    And, if there is only one truth, as it should be, what happens if both of you end-up going to hell for eternity?
    Do you think it would be fair? After all you try to do the right things as you see it but it may not be enough…possibly or it could not be what God wants…
    Let’s say one of you deliberately chooses to go against God will. Would it be fair to torment you for eternity because you chose to disobey God for 60-80 years?
    Makes no sense to me… It wouldn’t be just in my eyes how could it be in God’s?

    BTW: Had Satan known that for helping Adam and Eve to disobey and sin he was going to receive the reward of being in charge of hell and torments of sinful souls for eternity? Seems like a really good deal he manage to cut with God… If I were some narcissistic psycho, it would be a bonus to me and not a punishment…

  53. 53
    J-Mac says:

    @51 Truth Will Set You Free

    I found the video confusing… What do you like about it?

  54. 54
    J-Mac says:

    @Truth Will Set You Free and Dionisio,

    I’d like to stress again that I have some scientific bases to believe that our consciousness/mind/self-awareness is quantum… which possibly survives or it is preserved after death… as per the law of conservation of quantum information…

    What I have no proof of is that that our consciousness is independent of our brain; can function or be aware on its own especially without microtubules in neurons…
    Here are some facts that seem to support that:

    1. General anesthesia totally disables consciousness by preventing the micro-tubules from quantum vibrations while leaving ALL other brain functions normal
    2. Near-death-experiences have been proven to be hallucinations as per experiments in the operating rooms with patients who experienced clinical deaths. Patients who had near death experiences described the operating room and people they had seen before application of general anesthesia. What they didn’t know was that they were moved to a different operating room, with different “decorations” and different crew dressed differently who were operating on them. This proved that people who had near death experiences were recalling floating over the operating room and people in the operating room they had memorized before they were put out of consciousness…
    4. Neurosurgeons have been able to stimulate “near death experiences” while accidentally applying electric stimulation in a part of the brain of patients that were awake during brain surgery…

    Dr. Egnor should know something about that… but because he so strongly believes in the immortality of the soul…he is unlikely to investigate this phenomenon…

  55. 55
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac @52:

    The church that Jesus founded in the first century has no denominations. He’s the head of His church, which is the union of His followers, who currently could be in different denominations.

    Denominations are human-conceived segregations according to different interpretations of biblical text on minor issues.

    There’s only one valid interpretation of the Bible: God’s version.

    I’m usually wrong on different things.
    However, God’s never wrong.

  56. 56
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac @52:

    Salvation is not based on the number of accumulated good deeds.

    Salvation is offered to us by God’s grace through genuine repentance and faith in Christ, who died on the cross in order to save His followers.

    His followers want to trust, obey and love Him. Once we are His, nothing can separate us from Him. It is written. Christ knows our true motives.

  57. 57
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac @54:

    What do you mean by “our consciousness can be aware”?

  58. 58
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac @54:

    Can you explain-using quantum physics information- the behavior of Sophie Scholl at her trial and when she met her mother shortly before execution?

    Can you explain your own experience of feelings and emotions at this point?

    What experiences all that? Your brain? Then who are you?

    Please, make it easy for the rest of us to understand. Note that my reading comprehension is rather deficient. Other folks in this blog are quick thinkers and get things much faster than I do. A discussion with me may turn pretty boring early on.

    I’ll appreciate your patience. Try to imitate our beloved Italian doctor GP, who so nicely deals with his dissenting interlocutors and answers even my dumb questions very patiently and clearly, though a little too technical sometimes. 🙂

    Thanks.

  59. 59
    J-Mac says:

    @55Dionisio,

    If Jesus has only one church, why there are so many different and conflicting teaching within one church? The teaching of the soul is just one example…Some believe it, some don’t…

  60. 60
    J-Mac says:

    @57,

    What do you mean by “our consciousness can be aware”?

    If the soul you believe lives on after death, it has to have the same properties that make us human; consciousness, self-awareness, memories…etc.

    I suspect that our consciousness is quantum which pretty much boils down to information…But that information is useless unless there is a processor to process that information and in our case it has to be our brain…
    Just like bits of information are not really of any value unless it can be processed or interpreted by an information processing device (movie on an DVD is useless unless one has a DVD player) Same seem to apply to what you call a soul and I call quantum information…A soul or quantum information need a processor with is our brain to be or feel self-awareness; to feel the experiences, to recall memories…etc

    Remember; near death experiences appear to be hallucinations; The anesthesia totally disables consciousness which shouldn’t happen if a soul is an entity that functions on its own and doesn’t need a body….

  61. 61
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac @60:

    “quantum information need a processor with is our brain to be or feel self-awareness; to feel the experiences, to recall memories”

    quantum information is self-aware?
    quantum information feels experiences?

    Huh? Say what?
    Can you elaborate on that?

    Also, would you mind answering the questions @58?

    Thanks.

  62. 62
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac @59:

    The answer is @55.

    Read it carefully. It’s clear.

    Maybe other commenters here can give you a hand?

  63. 63
    Dionisio says:

    J-Mac,

    Are you saying that you and I and everybody else are just quantum information with physical bodies?

    I have work to do, can’t spend too much time ‘debating’ beliefs.

    No need for you to respond my latest comments or questions.

    Let’s conclude our chat right here.

    You may continue writing whatever you want. Maybe other folks will engage in discussions with you.

  64. 64
    J-Mac says:

    @63 Dionisio,

    I have work to do, can’t spend too much time ‘debating’ beliefs.

    Just in case you have not realized it, you have been debating you own beliefs… you have no evidence for by the way…

    All you have are assumptions of your interpretation of some bible passages that make no sense in context of others… They are not even logical or compatible with what God should stand for…

    I have presented you with a possible scientific explanation of consciousness which sheds some light on what consciousness/mind/self-awareness could be…
    All you have is that you can’t accept that our consciousness is information…
    Just in case you didn’t realized it, the whole foundation of the universe is information…

  65. 65
    J-Mac says:

    For Dionisio and others who would like to educate themselves on the theory of quantum consciousness I highly recommend Roger Penrose’s books:

    The Emperor’s New Mind: Concerning Computers, Minds, and the Laws of Physic
    https://www.amazon.ca/Emperors-New-Mind-Concerning-Computers/dp/0192861980/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1512495775&sr=8-5&keywords=roger+penrose+quantum

    And

    Shadows of the Mind: A Search for the Missing Science of Consciousness Paperback – Aug 15 1996

    https://www.amazon.ca/Shadows-Mind-Missing-Science-Consciousness/dp/0195106466/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1512495940&sr=8-7&keywords=roger+penrose+quantum

    I think every religious and not religious person interested in consciousness should read them…

    They are not easy books if one doesn’t know much about quantum mechanics but they are surely worth to read….

  66. 66

    Thank you, J-Mac. I’ll have a look.

  67. 67
    Mung says:

    For Dionisio and others who would like to educate themselves…

    Well. That leaves me out.

  68. 68
    Dionisio says:

    here’s an interesting report on a most sophisticated information system that we still don’t comprehend well enough [to put it nicely]:

    https://consumer.healthday.com/disabilities-information-11/amputation-news-720/boy-s-double-hand-transplant-changed-his-brain-729122.html

    control systems engineers and computer scientists would be in awe at the sight of such a fascinating system, thinking they are just dreaming.

    but someone out there would assure them that all that is the product of RV+NS+…+T+…?

  69. 69
    Dionisio says:

    more [popular stuff] on brain and consciousness:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/201.....ss/8679884

    It seems that there is a hole in our scientific picture of the world, what philosopher Joseph Levine called an “explanatory gap”.

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