Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Never Fall into the Trap of Trying to Argue for the Self Evident

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For two reasons, it is a mistake to argue for self-evident propositions.  First, it is impossible to argue for a self-evident proposition because the definition of a self-evident proposition is a proposition that is known to be true merely by understanding its meaning.  Consider the challenge “I deny 1+1=2.  Prove it.”  Don’t fall for it.  If a person denies the glaring truth of such an analytic statement (i.e., 1+1 actually means 2), they are a hopeless fool. Nothing you can say to them will reduce the proposition to more basic terms. 

Secondly, arguing for self-evident truths is rhetorically self-defeating, because the very act of trying to argue for them concedes the proposition that they are “arguable.”  And they are, again by definition, not arguable. 

This is not an academic matter.  We live in a time when self-evident truths are being denied by foolish and/or evil people.  The following Facebook exchange that I had last weekend brought this home to me.  Note especially my “king has no clothes” response at the end.

Barry opens the debate:

A date that will live in infamy. NCAA gives women’s swimming championship to man posing as a woman.  One thing makes this Texan’s heart nearly burst with pride though. The girl in burnt orange giving him the stink eye on the podium.  BTW, for the nearly braindead and progressives (categories that overlap considerably), I have added handy notes to identify the man and the women.

“Jessica” responds:

Here’s an idea: you could make your point respectfully. If you really care about changing hearts and minds (indeed, this a powerful photo) maybe you could avoid insulting those who disagree or remain undecided on this controversial issue. Our public discourse deserves better.

Barry replies:

Jessica chides me for not being respectful to the people who argue that men pretending to be women should be allowed to crush real women in athletic competitions.  To this I say there is certainly a time for respectful dialogue among people acting in good faith concerning matters about which people of good will can differ. This is not one of them.

Anyone who says a man is a woman is a liar. Anyone who says they are “undecided” about whether a man can be a woman is a liar. Anyone who says there is a “controversy” about whether a man can be a woman is a liar. Liars are murderers of the truth and worthy of nothing but contempt.

You err when you suggest that my purpose is to change hearts and minds. It is not. Everyone’s hearts and minds are already of one accord in that everyone already knows a man can never be a woman and men should not be allowed to crush women in athletic competitions.

When the king walked down the street with no clothes on, no one needed to be convinced that he was naked.  No one needed a thoughtful augment designed to change their hearts and minds about the obvious facts that they already knew. They needed to be reminded that they were cowards and liars for denying the obvious truth.

No, I am not trying to change anyone’s mind. I am holding evil people up for the contempt they richly deserve.

Comments
CD, the case in the OP is patent gaslighting, reflective of the story of the naked emperor parading down the street and (with his advisors) pretending to be richly robed. KFkairosfocus
March 23, 2022
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BA, while one does not try to prove the self evident it is entirely in order to highlight that for one of sufficient maturity/experience to understand the claim thus its necessary truth and patent absurdity of attempted denial, to insist on denial is to cling to patent absurdity. The issue then becomes, why that insistence on blatant folly. Similarly, and on fair comment, for a practising judge to imagine she can publicly suggest that one must be a biologist to identify what a woman is, is a mark of grossly injudicious temperament.* Likewise, I am not about to surrender to someone waving a stats degree, the epistemic-logical right of a scientist to infer that a strong, readily and widely observable pattern reflecting obvious regularity of the world and leading to inference on a reliable sign is informative and even conclusive. Perhaps, such persons should consider the joint work in astronomy and mathematics of one certain Herr Gauss of a certain well known inverse U shaped curve, and what personal equation means per roots in astronomy. KF * F/N, given certain red guard faux rage tactics, kindly note I am of afro-euro-indio-Caribbean ethnicity and not an American but I am going to champion basic civilisation; which is patently under assault by barbarians in the gates who don't realise the consequences of toppling what they seek to overturn. So, kindly refrain from silly rhetoric about race or misogyny. Instead, read and ponder Plato's Ship of State parable i/l/o Athens' failure through the Peloponnesian war.kairosfocus
March 23, 2022
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@ 15 Given my response at 13, I find your comment deeply ironic....chuckdarwin
March 23, 2022
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Chuck at 13. I believe outrages against truth and justice call for forceful responses. You apparently don't. That does not speak well of you.Barry Arrington
March 23, 2022
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I have been around swimming for years, some of that time with Olympic gold medalists. The most amazing thing is the body size of the women who finished third (really second). Her body size is unusual for a top swimmer. ——————— And then competing for ironic comment of the century
don’t need to be a complete jerk about it.
From one of the biggest jerks ever to come here.jerry
March 23, 2022
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I removed my previous comment. It was intemperate. But my point is the same. I didn’t say you had to be mute. I’m saying that you don’t need to be a complete jerk about it.chuckdarwin
March 23, 2022
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“ didn’t say you needed to be quiet, I’m saying that you don’t need to be a flaming a**hole about it. That is why you are losing the culture wars—badly.” We are losing the culture wars because we have lost the propaganda wars waged daily by virtually every cultural institution in the country. They are swimming in a sea of lies and people like you like are nothing but a fish with a hook in your mouth being reeled into the boat. How’s that for being an a hole. Vividvividbleau
March 23, 2022
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"you don’t need to be a flaming a**hole about it." So much for reasonable discourse. Andrewasauber
March 23, 2022
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Thank you BA77 and Vivid. Chuck, Andrew poses a question at 5 that deserves an answer. Why do you think people should be mute in the face of insanity?Barry Arrington
March 23, 2022
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That Texas girl says it all. "YOU CHEATED." It's especially poignant because Texas and Okie girls have always been doing "male" things without BECOMING males. Running businesses and fixing cars without mussing their bouffants or losing their eyelashes.polistra
March 23, 2022
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BA “Barry that OP deserves a standing ovation.” I’m standing Vividvividbleau
March 23, 2022
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Barry “Anyone who says a man is a woman is a liar. Anyone who says they are “undecided” about whether a man can be a woman is a liar. Anyone who says there is a “controversy” about whether a man can be a woman is a liar. Liars are murderers of the truth and worthy of nothing but contempt. You err when you suggest that my purpose is to change hearts and minds. It is not. Everyone’s hearts and minds are already of one accord in that everyone already knows a man can never be a woman and men should not be allowed to crush women in athletic competitions.” Well said. “To this I say there is certainly a time for respectful dialogue among people acting in good faith concerning matters about which people of good will can differ. This is not one of them.” This is a ideological war which my side is badly losing but we must not indulge insanity and the time for niceties is over. I noticed in your OP that you did not once use the term “transgender”, bravo. Whoever controls the language controls thoughts. There is no such thing as “ transgender” and to adopt that word is to lose the battle before it starts. I have removed that term completely from my vocabulary and have urged all my friends, coworkers, family and anyone else around me to do that as well. There are men who think they are women and women who think they are men, that’s it , full stop, they are not transgender. Vividvividbleau
March 23, 2022
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Barry that OP deserves a standing ovation. https://i.gifer.com/FAz3.gifbornagain77
March 23, 2022
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ChuckyD, Why don't you explain why you think no one is allowed to be upset about this travesty. Andrewasauber
March 23, 2022
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In case anyone has not noticed we have a woman Supreme Court nominee who does not know what a woman is. Absolutely insane. Vividvividbleau
March 23, 2022
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Women's sports was especially vulnerable because for decades, feminists had hammered on the theme that there are no important differences between men and women. Lia Thomas was big karma for the feminists - and a wakeup call for the swim moms. Where do the moms' loyalties really lie? Hence the current pushback. Nature isn't everything. But don't bet against nature. This is in part an issue about what "science" means. Is science simply ideology dressed up in science terms or does it describe nature - and therefore is bound by reality-based results? I (O'Leary for News) can live with radical feminists getting a dose of karma but hate to see hardworking youngsters bearing the brunt. With any luck, lots of people will start to think that way.News
March 23, 2022
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Chuck, apparently you are happy with the fact that young women who trained for years had their hopes and dreams crushed by a man posing as a woman. That is evil. No, dude, I will not be silent.Barry Arrington
March 23, 2022
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Take a chill pill, dude…..chuckdarwin
March 23, 2022
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