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New Atheism: Not a cult, but a religion

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Over at Heather’s Homilies, Heather Hastie has written a post titled, Is New Atheism a Cult?, in which she argues convincingly for the negative position. Cults tend to share certain characteristics which, by and large, don’t apply to New Atheism:

  • The group members display an excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment to an individual.
  • The group members are preoccupied with bringing in new members.
  • Members are expected to devote inordinate amount of time to the group.
  • Members are preoccupied with making money.
  • Members’ subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give personal goals and activities that were of interest to the group.
  • Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

The definition used by Hastie is borrowed from the American Family Foundation, a Christian charity whose activities include rescuing people from cults. While Hastie acknowledges that “there are certainly some people who show excessive admiration towards the leaders of New Atheism,” she counters this by citing a remark by Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion, that trying to organize atheists is like trying to herd cats. I don’t think this is a very good response, as the vast majority of atheists are not New Atheists: most of them are closer to Alain de Botton than Richard Dawkins in their outlook on religion. The same point applies to the survey cited by Hastie and conducted by sociologist Dr. Phil Zuckerman, which found that atheists and secularists are “markedly less nationalistic, less prejudiced, less anti-Semitic, less racist, less dogmatic, less ethnocentric, less close-minded, and less authoritarian” than religious people. I have critiqued Dr. Zuckerman’s shoddy statistics in a previous post, but again, even if he were correct, his survey proves nothing about New Atheists.

A better response would have been to point out that the New Atheist movement has not one but several leaders, and that none of these leaders can command blind, unquestioning obedience in the way that the leader of a cult can do. The other characteristics of cults don’t really apply to the New Atheists either. Their main aim is not so much to win converts as to destroy belief in the supernatural. While some of them may spend a lot of time advocating atheism, none of them have given up their day-time jobs for the sake of devoting themselves to the cause. Nor do I know of any New Atheists who are actively involved in soliciting money from donors. And I have never heard of a New Atheist cutting ties with family members and friends, or living apart from society. In short: the term “cult” simply does not describe the New Atheists well.

I might add that a recent book purporting to show that New Atheism is a cult has been convincingly rebutted here and here.

But a cult is one thing, and a religion is quite another. In today’s post, I’m going to explain why I think that New Atheism can be fairly described as a religion.

Why a religion doesn’t have to involve belief in the supernatural

Let’s get two obvious objections out of the way immediately. First, many people would argue that since atheism is defined in purely negative terms, it cannot be legitimately referred to as a religion. Heather Hastie articulates this point very effectively in her post, Is New Atheism a cult?:

The important thing to note however, is that being an atheist does not bring with it any belief system whatsoever. There are dozens of analogies for this out there. Here are a few:

  • Saying atheism is a religion is like saying “off” is a TV channel.
  • Saying atheism is a religion is like saying bald is a hair colour.
  • Saying atheism is a religion is like saying not playing golf is a sport.
  • Sating atheism is a religion is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby.

In response: while the foregoing analogies successfully rebut the notion that atheism is a religion, what they overlook is that there’s more to New Atheism than just atheism. New Atheism doesn’t just deny the existence of God; it also provides its adherents with a coherent philosophy of where we came from, where we’re going, what’s real and what’s not, and how we can know the difference. Insofar as it supplies a systematic set of answers to life’s big questions, New Atheism has quite a lot in common with religions such as Christianity and Buddhism. The question I will attempt to answer in this post is whether New Atheism deserves to be placed in the same category as these faiths.

Second, it is argued that since New Atheism rejects belief in the supernatural, it cannot possibly be called a religion. The problem with this argument is that by the same token, you’d have to say that Jainism (which views karma as acting in a purely mechanistic fashion and which utterly rejects the notion of a supernatural Creator) is not a religion. Confucianism and Taoism, which believe in a supreme cosmic order (called Tian or Tao) but not a supernatural Deity, would also fail to qualify as religions. And what about Gautama Buddha, who rejected the idea of a Creator God and a Cosmic Self, and who taught that even the Vedic spirit-beings (devas) are not important and need not be worshiped, because they have not yet attained enlightenment? If belief in supernatural deities is what defines a religion, then the Buddha cannot be called the founder of a religion.

I might add that according to the article on “Religion” in West’s Encyclopedia of American Law, 2nd edition (2008 The Gale Group, Inc.), belief in the supernatural is not a part of the legal definition of religion in American law, either:

The Supreme Court has interpreted religion to mean a sincere and meaningful belief that occupies in the life of its possessor a place parallel to the place held by God in the lives of other persons. The religion or religious concept need not include belief in the existence of God or a supreme being to be within the scope of the First Amendment…

In addition, a belief does not need to be stated in traditional terms to fall within First Amendment protection. For example, Scientology — a system of beliefs that a human being is essentially a free and immortal spirit who merely inhabits a body — does not propound the existence of a supreme being, but it qualifies as a religion under the broad definition propounded by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has deliberately avoided establishing an exact or a narrow definition of religion because freedom of religion is a dynamic guarantee that was written in a manner to ensure flexibility and responsiveness to the passage of time and the development of the United States. Thus, religion is not limited to traditional denominations. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

A religion does, however, need to have an object of ultimate concern – something that its members care deeply about. For New Atheists, the object of ultimate concern is simply the flourishing of society itself: they believe that the world would be a much better place if society was entirely regulated by reason, and not faith. And this is something that the New Atheists care passionately about. The sheer volume of books that they have written in support of their cause in recent years attests to that fact.

Other distinguishing features of a religion

I would also argue that a religion has several other distinguishing features, which (as I’ll argue below) apply to New Atheism:

(a) a single, unifying explanation of what we are, where we came from and where we are going (Gauguin’s “big questions”);

(b) a set of prescriptions for members, which must not be deviated from (i.e. a “straight and narrow path”);

(c) a tendency for even minor alterations to either the religion’s factual claims or its prescriptions to yield conclusions which diverge radically from those taught by the religion;

(d) an epistemic theory describing how the claims made by the religion can be known to be true, by believers;

(e) some unresolved epistemic issues, relating to what we know and how we know it;

(f) the possibility of multiple and conflicting strategies for the advancement of the movement (i.e. evangelization); and

(g) a tendency to split into sects, due to (c), (e) and (f).

I imagine that readers will regard features (a) and (b) as fairly uncontroversial, although I should point out that some religions (such as Confucianism and to a lesser extent, Buddhism) are heavily pragmatic, and tend to discourage speculation about where we came from and where we are going. However, the contrast between speculative and pragmatic religions should not be overstated. Confucianism, for instance, attaches great importance to ancestor worship, and although it rejects belief in a personal Deity, its adherents often refer to the “Mandate of Heaven” (see also here). For its part, Buddhism has a very detailed cosmology, with multiple realms of existence, each inhabited by its own special kinds of beings, and there are also sects of Buddhism which offer vivid descriptions of the afterlife.

The other conditions which I have listed will probably raise some eyebrows. In short, what I’m claiming is that one of the defining characteristics of any religion is its built-in tendency to split into sects. (Even Confucianism, which is not an organized religion, has no less than eight different schools, while centuries ago, Buddhism split into as many as twenty sects.) Why is this so? What makes religions so prone to schism?

The impossibility of building a complete, epistemically closed system of thought

In 1931, the mathematician Kurt Godel demonstrated that the quest to find a complete and consistent set of axioms for all mathematics is an impossible one. The same, I would suggest, applies to religion. Since every religion propounds a set of truths, it needs to offer believers a set of epistemic principles which tell them how they can be sure that the beliefs they espouse are actually true. However, I would argue that any attempt to find an account of reality whose epistemic postulates (regarding what we can know and how we know it) are both self-justifying and capable of telling us how to answer any question we may want to ask about the world, is a vain one. With any system of thought, there will always be some unresolved issues about what we know and how we know it.

How minor changes in premises can yield radically divergent conclusions

Students of economics will be aware of the phenomenon of unstable equilibrium, where a model or system does not gravitate back to equilibrium after it is shocked. Consider the case of a marble sitting on top of an upside-down bowl. If the marble is nudged even slightly, it will roll off the bowl, without returning to its original position. In real life, markets with an unstable equilibrium are rare, although business-cycle contractions and stock market crashes are two probable cases in point. But if we look at systems of thought, unstable equilibrium is not the exception: it is the rule. I first became aware of this about a decade ago, when I was writing my Ph.D. thesis on animal minds. I had originally planned to include two chapters on our ethical obligations to animals and other living creatures, although in the end, I decided to cut them out and focus entirely on animal minds, in order to stay within my word limit. While writing these chapters on ethics, however, I was astonished to find that even minor changes in the ethical premises yielded drastically different conclusions, with regard to the extent of our obligations towards animals and other living things. I tried tightening them slightly or loosening them slightly, but all I did was see-saw back and forth, between extremes that were obviously either too burdensome on humanity (rendering even agriculture a morally dubious enterprise) or so permissive that they could be used to justify killing of animals and other creatures for practically any reason. Finding a sensible happy medium was very difficult, and in the end, I’m not sure if I really succeeded or not.

All religions enjoin their adherents to follow a “straight and narrow” path of some sort. What the foregoing considerations suggest to me is that religions, which attempt to codify our moral duties, might be susceptible to the same problem that beset me when I was trying to draw up a set of ethical principles that would govern our interactions with other living things. Minor changes in these principles can have drastic results, tending towards either a harsh moral rigorism or a self-satisfied laxism. And if we look at contemporary Christianity (and to a lesser extent, Judaism), it is striking to observe how differing attitudes towards the ultimate source of authority in religion have recently triggered rifts within Christian denominations (e.g. Anglicanism) over ethical issues (e.g. abortion, homosexuality and premarital sex) which dwarf the traditional divisions between denominations, so that an evangelical (low-church) Anglican will probably have more in common with a Baptist (say) than with a broad-church Anglican.

The “see-saw effect” that I noticed while writing on our duties towards animals isn’t limited to ethical matters. I would suggest that any kind of injunction – whether it concerns how we should think, what we should believe, what we should say or how we should act – is vulnerable to the same distortions, if modified. If we look at the history of Christianity between the fourth and seventh centuries, we may be puzzled that the controversies about the Trinity and about the person and natures of Jesus Christ were so heated, but there was a very good reason for that. The Arians who insisted that “The Son was made from nothing” might have revered God’s Son as the first and greatest of creatures, but a creature cannot save you. Only God can do that. Obviously, too, if you believe in a Trinitarian God, then the way you pray to such a Being will be very different from the way you would pray to a Unitarian God: the latter Being sounds more remote and less personal, so you won’t confide in it with your hopes, dreams and worries, as you would do if you believed you were talking to a community of persons. Finally, with regard to Jesus Christ, you cannot view Him as “one of us” if you believe His humanity was absorbed into His Divinity like a piece of burning iron is absorbed into the fire (as Monophysites and Coptic Christians do). Nor can you celebrate the Annunciation as the moment in history when God became man, if you believe that there was only a moral union between Christ’s Divinity and His humanity (as Nestorians do). In short: the theological controversies of the fourth to seventh centuries mattered, because they had powerful implications for the way in which people related to their God.

How new issues can trigger religious splits

Religions are dynamic entities, and they continually have to deal with new issues which their founders (or founding texts) didn’t explicitly address. It’s simply not possible to define a set of principles (be they credal or ethical) which can answer every new question that arises, because all statements are to some degree ambiguous. Take, for instance, the Christian affirmation that there are three Persons in one God. By itself, this statement cannot tell us whether we should think of God as having three Minds (one for each Person) or one Divine Mind, which each person realizes in His own unique way. We need a “living voice” to address questions like that. And as you can imagine, when new pronouncements are made – be they on the nature of God or the afterlife or how we should treat others – there is always the potential for a division of opinion, and a schism.

A further source of division: strategies for evangelization

So far we have talked about religious beliefs and injunctions as sources of potential divisions. But strategies for evangelization can prove to be sources of division as well. The best modern example of this phenomenon comes from the Soviet Union, whose dominant religion was that of Communism. (Communism, being a materialistic faith, could be described as an “earth religion,” but what makes it unusual was its linear view of time, and its promise of a bright and glorious future. As a rule, earth religions tend to be cyclic; Communion was a Utopian earth religion.) As readers of George Orwell’s Animal Farm will recall, the period of the 1920s was characterized by a brutal internal struggle between internationalists such as Leon Trotsky who wanted to advance the cause of Communism by fomenting revolutions abroad, and nationalists like Joseph Stalin, who advocated “socialism in one country.”

Religions, then, are inherently divisive for three reasons: their tenets and guiding principles are exquisitely sensitive to even minor changes in wording; their creeds and dogmas, by themselves, are incapable of resolving new questions, or matters where differing interpretations might arise; and their leaders may fiercely disagree on strategies for evangelization.

So how does the New Atheism stack up? Does it qualify as a religion?

Is New Atheism a religion?

Answering Gauguin’s “big questions”

There can be no doubt that New Atheism endeavors to answer the “big questions” of what we are, where we came from and where we are going. On the New Atheist account, everything we see around us, including ourselves, is the product of unguided processes, which can be described by mathematical equations (laws of Nature), acting on the matter and energy in our universe, whose original state can be modeled by a set of initial conditions. Books such as Alex Rosenberg’s The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: Enjoying Life without Illusions, Richard Dawkins’s The Magic of Reality: How We Know What’s Really True and Lawrence Krauss’s A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing are all examples of attempts by leading New Atheists (and fellow-travelers) to offer a coherent world-view that answers all of Gauguin’s “big questions.”

A straight and narrow path

In his book, The Moral Landscape, published in 2010, New Atheist Sam Harris contends that science can answer moral questions and that it can promote human well-being. According to Harris, the only rational moral framework is one where the term “morally good” means: whatever tends to increase the “well-being of conscious creatures.” Contrary to the widely accepted notion that you cannot derive an “ought” from an “is,” Harris maintains that science can determine human values, insofar as it can tell us which values are conducive to the flourishing of the human species. Harris’s approach to morality is a utilitarian one, which means that for him, the object of ultimate concern is the flourishing of the species as a whole. Indeed, he is famous for contending that it would be morally justifiable to push an innocent fat man into the path of an oncoming train, to prevent the train from running over five people further down the track. Harris’s book on morality has been highly praised by atheist luminaries such as Richard Dawkins, Steven Pinker and Lawrence Krauss.

The prescriptions of most religions are explicitly ethical (e.g. “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself”), but they need not be: Buddhism, for instance, tells its followers to free themselves from craving by following the Eightfold Path, in order to avoid suffering. In the case of New Atheism, the underlying prescription is that you should embrace skepticism and use the scientific method, if you want to know anything at all about the world. The ethical principles are secondary: they arise from the application of this scientific principle to the study of human nature.

The potential for radically divergent conclusions arising from minor alterations to the religion’s tenets

As we saw, religions are distinguished by the interesting property that even minor variations in their founding principles (both factual and prescriptive) yield drastically different conclusions. When we examine New Atheism, we find that it possesses the same property, regardless of whether we look at its metaphysical statements about reality or its prescriptions about how we should think and act.

New Atheism is a materialistic world-view which denies the existence of libertarian free-will – a notion that its adherents regard as mystical mumbo jumbo. Mental states are said to supervene on underlying physical states: in other words, it is not possible that two individuals with the same physical arrangement of atoms in their bodies could have different mental states. The implicit assumption here is that there is no such thing as “top-down” causation within the material realm, and that causation is invariably “bottom-up.” But if higher-level holistic states of the brain and central nervous system can influence micro-states at the neuronal level, then it no longer follows that each of us is the product of our genes plus our environment. Again, New Atheists consider the universe to be a causally closed system. But if we allow the possibility of a multiverse, then it seems to me that we cannot guarantee causal closure. If we grant that a scientist in some other universe may have created our own universe, then how can we be sure that there has been no interaction between external intelligent agents and our universe, during its entire 13.8-billion-year history?

The “Science works” comic that was indirectly alluded to by Professor Richard Dawkins, in a talk at Oxford’s Sheldonian Theater on 15 February 2013. Image courtesy of xkcd comics. Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 2.5 License.

The New Atheist injunction that science is the only road to knowledge is no less fragile. The problem with this view, as I have pointed out previously, is that it leaves us with no way of justifying the scientific enterprise, which rests on a host of metaphysical assumptions about reality. (By the way, Richard Dawkins’s “Science works” is not an adequate justification, for it gives us absolutely no reason to believe that science will continue to work in the future. In other words, it fails to solve the problem of induction.) But if we allow even one of these metaphysical assumptions to stand alongside the foundational principles of science as a basis for knowledge, then we have violated our claim that all knowledge is based on science alone, and we can no longer call ourselves empiricists. What’s more, if there are some metaphysical truths that we are capable of knowing, then we have to provide some account of how we come to know these metaphysical truths. Are they intuitions which we “just know,” or do we infer them as presuppositions of science? We also have to confront the question: why should a mind which evolved for survival on the African savanna be capable of addressing metaphysical questions? (See also my article, Faith vs. Fact: Jerry Coyne’s flawed epistemology.)

When we look at the ethical principles of the New Atheism, we find still more fragility. Take Sam Harris’s assertion that we should strive to increase the “well-being of conscious creatures.” If we strive instead for the well-being of all self-conscious creatures, then sentient non-human animals won’t matter at all, and if we strive for the welfare of all living creatures, then even the humble bacterium will matter, and conceivably, the interests of bacteria (which are very numerous) could dwarf those of sentient animals (which comprise but a tiny twig on the tree of life). Again, is it creatures themselves which matter, or the species they belong to? What’s good for a species might turn out to be bad for the majority of individuals belonging to that species. And if it’s individuals that matter, then is it the greatest happiness of the greatest number of individuals that we should be trying to maximize, or are there certain kinds of harm which we should never allow even one individual to suffer? Supposing (as utilitarians do) that our duty is to maximize overall happiness, are we supposed to maximize the average happiness of all conscious individuals, or the total amount of happiness experienced by individuals? For instance, is a world with a few very happy individuals better or worse than a world with lots of slightly happy ones?

An epistemic theory of how we know the religion’s claims to be true

Any religion has to provide some sort of account as to how its factual and ethical claims can be known to be true, for the benefit of its adherents (who may be subject to doubts from time to time). Supernatural religions commonly cite evidence of miracles: for instance, the kuzari principle (which basically says that you can’t fool all of the people all of the time) is very popular with Jews (who use it to support their claim that God worked public miracles that were witnessed by all of the Israelites), and for their part, Christian apologists (such as Drs. Tim and Lydia McGrew) appeal to the strength of testimony by multiple eyewitnesses to build a cumulative case for the resurrection of Jesus. Hindus argue that the law of karma and the notion of reincarnation make more sense than the belief that we all go to Heaven or Hell when we die (see also here). Muslims are somewhat unusual in that they eschew appeals to miracles; instead, they argue that the Quran is self-authenticating because of its singular literary qualities.

When we look at less supernatural religions, such as Confucianism and Buddhism, we find that the method by which they justify their claims and injunctions is a pragmatic one. Thus Buddhists hold that anyone can verify the Four Noble Truths on the basis of their own personal experience, without having to go to some higher authority. Confucianism’s chief apologist (if you can call him that) was Mencius, who argued that human nature is inherently good, and that both experience and reason attest to the fact that we all have a built-in knowledge of good and evil, and of the will of Heaven.

New Atheism resembles these latter religions in that it appeals to pragmatic criteria, in order to back up its epistemic claims – the main difference being that New Atheists do not regard introspection as a valid source of knowledge (even self-knowledge), whereas Buddhists and Confucians do. The arguments for New Atheism can be summed up in five words: “Science works; nothing else does.” The distinctive claim of New Atheism, as a religion, is its cocksure assertion that the scientific method offers the only reliable way of knowing anything about our world, and that any claims which cannot be tested using this method can be regarded as nonsense. The scientific method assumes that we can perform (and replicate) experiments: for that to happen, we need entities that behave in accordance with scientific laws. Since there is no scientific way of verifying the existence of lawless entities, such as pixies or spirits, we can set them aside. Finally, we can apply the scientific method to human nature itself, and investigate what makes people tick and what is conducive to their flourishing, and to the flourishing of society in general. Indeed, we can do the same for all sentient beings. What New Atheism claims to offer its adherents, then, is a way of understanding our world and of answering any meaningful question that we can ask about it. In this respect, it functions very like a religion.

Unresolved epistemic issues

Many critics of New Atheism have argued that it is unable to justify its materialistic claim that the only things that exist are entities which are subject to physical laws of some sort, its bold epistemic claim that the scientific method offers us the only route to knowledge, and its ethical claim that we should strive to increase the well-being of conscious creatures. For the most part, New Atheists have responded by shifting the burden of proof: if there exists immaterial entities such as spirits, then the onus is on people who believe in them to supply proof (or at least, very strong evidence) of their existence; if there are non-scientific ways of knowing, then the onus is on people who defend these ways of knowing so explain how they work and we we should regard them as reliable; and if we have any other duties besides increasing the well-being of conscious creatures, then the onus is on people who claim that we have these additional duties to explain what they are and why we have them.

While this strategy of shifting the burden of proof has been a very effective tactic against other religious believers, it fails to address the arguments of those who are skeptical of skepticism itself. We are told that the only entities which are real are ones which obey physical laws, but we are not told what a physical law is, or what it means for something to obey a law, or why we should believe that these laws will continue to hold in the future. We are not told why the scientific way of knowing is reliable for all times and places – or even why it works for any time and place. Lastly, we are not told why we have any moral duties towards others. Indeed, Professor Jerry Coyne, who is himself a leading New Atheist, has criticized Sam Harris’s claim that we can deduce an “ought” from an “is” (see here and here). Unlike most New Atheists, Coyne holds that ethical norms arise from shared subjective preferences (which have been shaped by our evolutionary past): most of us happen to like living in a society which promotes people’s happiness and strives to reduce suffering, but there’s no objective reason why we should promote other people’s happiness or reduce their suffering.

In short: New Atheism faces a real epistemic crisis, which it has so far failed to confront. So why do its adherents seem so unperturbed by this crisis? The real reason, I would argue, is that it doesn’t have to address all these unresolved epistemic issues in order to secure adherents; all it has to do is out-perform its leading competitors in the market for ideas. So long as New Atheism can poke fun at Christians and Muslims and make their epistemic claims look foolish, then it will have accomplished its objective of looking like a better and more rational alternative. New Atheism faces no real competition from die-hard skeptics who claim that we cannot know anything, for the very simple reason that few people find such a philosophy attractive – and even if they did, nobody can live in accordance with such a world-view on a day-to-day basis.

Arguments about strategies for evangelization

At the present time, the key point of division within the New Atheist movement is: should New Atheism be a moral movement?

In recent years, the New Atheist movement has fragmented, largely because of the extremely crude sexist behavior of certain online atheists, which skeptical blogger and Skepchick founder Rebecca Watson (pictured above, courtesy of Wikipedia) first drew attention to in her December 2011 post, Reddit makes me hate atheists. In August 2012, after penning an explosive article titled, How I Unwittingly Infiltrated the Boy’s Club & Why It’s Time for a New Wave of Atheism, atheist blogger and scientist Jen McCreight launched a new movement called Atheism+, whose ideals she defined as follows:

We are…
Atheists plus we care about social justice,
Atheists plus we support women’s rights,
Atheists plus we protest racism,
Atheists plus we fight homophobia and transphobia,
Atheists plus we use critical thinking and skepticism

The feminist and atheist blogger Greta Christina lent her support to the fledgling movement, with her post, Atheism Plus: The New Wave of Atheism, and leading atheist Richard Carrier shortly afterwards followed suit, in his post, The New Atheism +.

Atheism Plus has turned out to be even more intolerant than the New Atheism from which it split off. One comment made by Carrier on his blog is chilling in its strident advocacy of publicly denouncing anyone who doesn’t toe the line and espouse the principles of Atheism Plus:

If you mean “rational people will be making mental notes of who is irrational, then documenting it, and publicly informing their colleagues of it,” then yes. There is no other way to promote a rational society than to call out those who are irrational and denounce and marginalize them as such. No longer will we treat them as one of us. Because they are not.

There won’t be any central committee for this. Just the internet and the evidence.

Accept it or GTFO.

But the real problem with Atheism Plus, as I see it, is that by adding certain ethical tenets to New Atheism, it implicitly concedes that the epistemic principles espoused by New Atheists (i.e. universal skepticism and the use of the scientific method to assess truth claims) are incapable, by themselves, of yielding those tenets. Such an admission constitutes a striking lack of confidence in New Atheism as a philosophy – for if it cannot tell us what is right and wrong, then it is ethically deficient.

Atheist blogger P.Z. Myers concedes as much in an August 2012 post titled, Following up on last night’s Atheism+ discussion, where he quotes from an article he previously wrote in Free Inquiry, titled, Atheism’s Third Wave:

Science is neutral on moral concerns; it only describes what is, now how it ought to be. And this is true; science is a tool that can be used equally well for curing diseases or building bombs. But scientists are not and should not be morally neutral, nor should scientific organizations or culture be excluded from defining the appropriate uses of science…

Similarly, atheism may be value-neutral, but atheists and atheist organizations should not be…

… Because I’m an atheist and share common cause with every other human being on the planet in desiring to live my one life with equal opportunity, I suggest that atheists ought to fight for equality for all, economic security for all, and universally available health and education services… Ours should be a movement that welcomes all sexes, races, ages, and abilities and encourages an appreciation of human richness. Atheism ought to be a progressive social movement in addition to being a philosophical and scientific position, because living in a godless universe means something to humanity.

Commenting on his article, Myers added:

And if you don’t agree with any of that — and this is the only ‘divisive’ part — then you’re an asshole. I suggest you form your own label, “Asshole Atheists” and own it, proudly. I promise not to resent it or cry about joining it.

Several points are apparent from the foregoing extract. First, there is indeed a major ethical rift between New Atheists and Atheists plus, over whether science can establish moral truths. Myers evidently regards science as value-neutral, while New Atheist Sam Harris is convinced that science can tell us what is right and wrong.

Second, Myers fails to address the metaphysical issue of who qualifies as a person. He claims to welcome people of all ages and abilities: well then, what about newborn babies who lack both language and self-consciousness, or for that matter, first-trimester fetuses, who are not yet sentient but whose bodies are running a genetic program which will enable them to develop into sentient and (ultimately) rational beings, when placed in a suitable environment (i.e. the womb)? There is a very good reason why Myers does not mention these issues in his blog post: as I pointed out four years ago in an article I wrote on Uncommon Descent, Myers doesn’t believe that newborn babies are persons, or that they are fully human. “I’ve had a few. They weren’t,” he writes.

Third, Myers’ goals seem unobjectionable… until you read the fine print. “Universally available health and education services” sounds lovely, but does that mean that health care and education ought to be free for everyone who cannot pay, regardless of cost? How far would Myers like the welfare state to extend? And how much would he tax the rich?

Fourth, even if you agree with Myers’ goals, you might reasonably disagree with the means he proposes for attaining them.

Fifth, it never seems to occur to Myers that inclusiveness might not always be a good thing, and that some forms of discrimination might be rational. Welcoming people of all races and sexes is one thing; welcoming people of all fetishes and paraphilias is quite another. Additionally, an honest skeptic would not prejudge the issue of whether homosexuality or transgenderism is normal, but would instead keep an open mind. Myers’ mind strikes me as firmly closed shut on these issues.

Advocates of Atheism plus also faced some flak from critics who asked why they didn’t simply call themselves humanists. In response, atheist blogger Ashley Miller penned a thoughtful reply titled, The difference between “atheism +” and humanism, in which she wrote:

The desire to hold on to “atheism” rather than use the term “humanism” isn’t from a fundamental difference of goals and beliefs, but from a difference of self-definition. I personally like “atheism +” because it’s more confrontational, embraces a minority position that is loathed by many, and it is more transparent about the belief that religion is one of the root causes of many social injustices. My humanism is more than just secular, it is anti-religion.

Meanwhile, there appears to be no sign of a rapprochement between the New Atheist Old Guard and the younger leaders of the Atheism Plus movement, many of whom think that the leading spokesmen for the New Atheist movement have outlived their usefulness. In a recent article in the Guardian, (Richard Dawkins has lost it: ignorant sexism gives atheists a bad name, September 18, 2014), journalist Adam Lee reported on the widespread disillusionment among atheists with Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion:

He may have convinced himself that he’s the Most Rational Man Alive, but if his goal is to persuade everyone else that atheism is a welcoming and attractive option, Richard Dawkins is doing a terrible job. Blogger and author Greta Christina told me, “I can’t tell you how many women, people of color, other marginalized people I’ve talked with who’ve told me, ‘I’m an atheist, but I don’t want anything to do with organized atheism if these guys are the leaders.’”

It’s not just women who are outraged by Dawkins these days: author and blogger PZ Myers told me, “At a time when our movement needs to expand its reach, it’s a tragedy that our most eminent spokesman has so enthusiastically expressed such a regressive attitude.”

Following the publication of Lee’s article, New Atheists sprang to Dawkins’s defense. Jerry Coyne swiftly responded in a post titled, Adam Lee has lost it:

…[L]et me say this: I am friends with both Richard [Dawkins] and Sam [Harris], have interacted with them a great deal, and have never heard a sexist word pass their lips. (You may discount that if you wish since I have a Y chromosome, but I speak the truth.) Both have seemed to me seriously concerned with women’s rights, particularly as they’re abrogated by religion, and both have written about that. But does that count? No, it’s all effaced by a few remarks that can be twisted into accusations of sexism and, yes, misogyny, which is “hatred of women.”

These men do not hate women, and their opponents are ideologues. Michael Nugent, head of Atheist Ireland and one of the most conciliatory atheists I know, has tried reaching out to those who denigrate Richard and Sam, asking for dialogue and requesting that the hounders behave like civilized human beings — as Nugent himself always has. No dice. For trying to be conciliatory, Nugent has been, and is being, vilified. It’s disgusting. I feel sorry for the man, who is learning the hard way that good intentions are not enough to stay a pack of baying hounds.

Reading these exchanges, I get the impression that the divide between New Atheists and members of Atheist Plus is no longer just about strategy or even about feminism; it’s widened into a debate about how we identify social wrongs that need to be righted.

A tendency to split into sects

Back in 2009, the New Atheist movement was still in its infancy. At that time, NPR reporter Barbara Bradley Haggerty wrote an online article titled, A Bitter Rift Divides Atheists, in which she cited the concerns of Center for Inquiry founder Paul Kurtz, that New Atheism would set the atheist movement back:

“I consider them atheist fundamentalists,” he says. “They’re anti-religious, and they’re mean-spirited, unfortunately. Now, they’re very good atheists and very dedicated people who do not believe in God. But you have this aggressive and militant phase of atheism, and that does more damage than good.”

He hopes this new approach will fizzle.

“Merely to critically attack religious beliefs is not sufficient. It leaves a vacuum. What are you for? We know what you’re against, but what do you want to defend?”

Six years have passed since then, and as we have seen, Kurtz’s question, “What are you for?” has now split the New Atheist movement itself down the middle, with the emergence of a vocal splinter group called Atheism plus.

However, it would be grossly simplistic to think that New Atheism is divided into only two factions, as Jack Vance points out in a 2013 post on his blog, Atheist Revolution:

You see, I reject the perspective that this rift represents an open conflict between two well-defined sides (i.e., the Freethought Blogs/Skepchick/Atheism+ side vs. the Slymepit side). I understand the appeal of simplifying this by pretending that there are only two sides and that these are those sides. It is very difficult to talk about a conflict involving more than two sides, and simplification is damned tempting. Unfortunately, this is a case where simplifying things to two sides does not reflect reality.

In the meantime, the rift between New Atheism and other atheists has, if anything, intensified. New Atheist Jerry Coyne recently authored a post titled, Why do many atheists hate the New Atheists? The title says it all, really. Coyne sums up his own gloomy thoughts on the subject:

The critique of New Atheists by other atheists seems to consist largely of ad hominem accusations, distortions of what they’ve said (Sam Harris is particularly subject to this), and, most of all, complaints that they dare criticize religion publicly…

Now I’m perfectly happy accepting that it’s not the style of some nonbelievers to openly declare their atheism, much less to publicly criticize religion. But why go after the ones who do, especially when they’re simply articulating the reasons why the non-vociferous atheists have rejected religion? …

These are just some tentative thoughts, but the rancor of atheist criticism about New Atheists repeatedly surprises and saddens me. And I don’t fully understand it.

Finally, back in January 2013, neurologist and skeptic Stephen Novella, who identifies as a scientific skeptic rather than a New Atheist, wrote a thoughtful and conciliatory post, in which he argued that skepticism is not defined by the positions it takes on various issues, but by the methods it uses to assess claims. Novella also offered some reflections on the tendency of the skeptical movement to fragment over time:

All movements have internal divisions, and these divisions grow as the movement grows. There is a natural tendency for movements to splinter over time into sub-groups based upon these divisions. I think that would be disastrous for us, given that we are still a relatively small movement with a monumental task before us, including highly motivated (and often well-funded) opponents who wish our failure.

The upshot of all this is that the atheist movement – and especially the New Atheist movement – is increasingly looking like a house divided. Sectarianism, which is a defining feature of religion, appears to apply equally to New Atheism.

Conclusion

There is a common saying: “If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.” We have seen that New Atheism bears a number of striking resemblances to religion, on seven points: it attempts to answer the “big questions”; it prescribes a straight and narrow path for its followers; minor alterations to its tenets yield radically divergent conclusions; it attempts to provide an answer as to how its adherents can know how that its claims to be true; it has unresolved epistemic issues relating to what we know and how we can know it; its leaders argue about strategies for evangelization; and it has a tendency to splinter into sects. In view of these many points of similarity, I think it is fair to conclude that New Atheism belongs in the same category as the creeds it criticizes. While it is definitely not a cult, it can legitimately be called a religion.

What do readers think?

Comments
Carpathian:
If the brain and “mind” are separate, why would their personalities change after a lobotomy?
The brain is the hardware required for the mind to be able to function correctly in this physical world.Virgil Cain
October 9, 2015
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Carpathian:
The irony is that you have lost every debate you have ever been in on this blog.
The reality is I have beaten the both of you to death with evidence and science. And you have choked on all of it.
If you actually had an argument, you would fill your available bandwidth with that argument.
Been there, done that. Why do you think that your ignorance is an argument? I have shown that RDFish is a mental midget. I have also shown that you are dishonest and an ignoramus. What else is there to do?Virgil Cain
October 9, 2015
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Box, In a case of hydrocephalus, brain tissue is not missing, but is rather compressed because of pressure from brain/spinal fluid. When the frontal lobes are removed, you get this:
Form Wiki: The purpose of the operation was to reduce the symptoms of mental disorder, and it was recognized that this was accomplished at the expense of a person's personality and intellect. British psychiatrist Maurice Partridge, who conducted a follow-up study of 300 patients, said that the treatment achieved its effects by "reducing the complexity of psychic life". Following the operation, spontaneity, responsiveness, self-awareness and self-control were reduced. Activity was replaced by inertia, and people were left emotionally blunted and restricted in their intellectual range.[5]
If the brain and "mind" are separate, why would their personalities change after a lobotomy?Carpathian
October 9, 2015
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RDFish, I take it that you prefer to change the topic? Here’s what you said:
RDFish: He [Egnor] says the representation is stored in the brain (…)
Now this is an utter misrepresentation of Egnor’s position, in fact he argues against the concept that representations of memories are stored in the brain, as I have highlighted in post #315. You went on like this:
RDFish: Well, without the representation that is stored in the brain, you don’t have a memory in the mind. Even Egnor knows that!
which is simply getting things backward; see #315
RDFish: (…) even Egnor knows that mental function depends upon brain function!!!
Do you even notice that you have changed the topic? I wonder. That’s not what I quoted you for and not what I commented on.
RDFish: Here is what Egnor says: “It is undeniable that brain processes are necessary for some mental functions — perception, memory, imagination and the like. That is the proper purview of neuroscience. “ Read that again. Ready to change your position? No, of course not. You’ll say that Egnor is wrong, or that when he says brain function is necessary for memory he somehow means the opposite, or… well I’m not sure what you’ll say, honestly. But I know you’ll never accept the truth.
I do believe you when you say that you honestly have no idea what my response will be. It’s saddening actually, because it shows that you don’t understand what you are arguing against. Okay, here goes: First, in order to get some perspective, you should know that Egnor is a substance dualist, who elsewhere argues that “there will be some mental phenomena without brain function”. So, what does he mean by the statement, that got you all excited? I think that Egnor could (or should) have added the qualifier “during our stay in the physical realm”. Like this:
Egnor: It is undeniable that brain processes are necessary for some mental functions — perception, memory, imagination and the like [during our stay in the physical realm].
Maybe Egnor, while writing his short article, decided to refrain from such a qualifier because he didn’t want the extra attention that it may elicit. I cannot speak for Michael Egnor, but I hold that it doesn’t make sense that Egnor is actually saying that without a brain there cannot be mental function. Obviously, that incoherent concept would be incompatible with his belief.Box
October 9, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Hi RDFish- No one cares about your posts except to show that you are an imbecile on an agenda. You don’t have any clue about science. You don’t have any clue how to conduct an investigation. You would lose miserably in an open debate about ID and science. Cheers, Virgil Cain
The irony is that you have lost every debate you have ever been in on this blog. I can see you feel the same way as soon as you start to post personal remarks like the one you just made. If you actually had an argument, you would fill your available bandwidth with that argument. You instead respond with personal attacks and hand-waving.Carpathian
October 9, 2015
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Box:
How can we get from “connections between neurons” to a memory?
Those "connections between neurons" are how memories are made in brains. In some cases, when damage to a certain part of the brain is made, the patients will recognize their parents or friends but have no sense of emotion when seeing them. This leads to a situation where the patient is sure that their loved ones have been replaced by duplicates who look and behave exactly like them. If the "mind" was separate from the brain, this situation should not arise since the "mind's" memory has successfully identified the loved ones. If the "mind" and brain were separate, why would brain damage then cause a person to no longer feel emotion when looking at their loved ones?Carpathian
October 9, 2015
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Hi RDFish- No one cares about your posts except to show that you are an imbecile on an agenda. You don't have any clue about science. You don't have any clue how to conduct an investigation. You would lose miserably in an open debate about ID and science. Cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
October 9, 2015
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All, Just in case anyone has missed my exchange with Box, it's really worth a quick review. Box has insisted that mental function does not rely on brain function. After ignoring argument after argument, ignoring experiments and experience and observation, he cites his own expert source, Dr. Michael Egnor. Box thinks he's finally proven his point, but Box has misread what Egnor said completely. Now, in Box's defense, Egnor's article is utterly confused. Egnor is always confused - he's surely a competent surgeon but he has no clue about science, including neuroscience. His understanding of memory and representation is wildly incoherent. Still, Egnor could not have been more clear when he says that it is undeniable that brain function is necessary for memory and other mental functions. Now, if even Egnor admits this, you can imagine how a normal, intelligent neuroscientist would react if you said memory does not depend on brain function! OK, then! What does this mean for ID? It means that since mental function - including memory and imagination - are dependent upon brain function, it is highly unlikely that anything without something similar to a human brain will have mental function similar to a human being. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
October 9, 2015
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Hi Box, Oh, Box, this is too rich! No wonder you have ended up with this insane notion that brains are not necessary for memory and other mental function! It's because no matter what you read, it has no effect on your beliefs. Here is the article that you linked to. It is by Dr. Egnor, who is famous for (1) being a religious ID supporter and (2) saying anything (even if it is incredibly stupid) to preserve the notion of dualism. But even Egnor knows that mental function depends upon brain function!!! Here is what Egnor says:
It is undeniable that brain processes are necessary for some mental functions -- perception, memory, imagination and the like. That is the proper purview of neuroscience.
Read that again. Ready to change your position? No, of course not. You'll say that Egnor is wrong, or that when he says brain function is necessary for memory he somehow means the opposite, or... well I'm not sure what you'll say, honestly. But I know you'll never accept the truth. Thank you Box - you really have done a service, showing how religious beliefs are absolutely impossible to change. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
October 9, 2015
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1) You’ve admitted that ID is incapable of empirically supporting any inference to any attribute of the cause of life. You can’t infer that it was conscious, able to use language, able to learn or understand anything, solve novel problems, and so on.
ID is NOT about the designer(s).
2) You persist in calling the cause of life “intelligent”, however, and you provide your own meaning for this term, which is “able to arrange matter for a purpose”.
That is in a dictionary. and that means it isn't his own meaning. Grow up already.
However, you are bluffing regarding an objective method for determining when things are “arranged for a purpose”,
Your ignorance does not mean other people are bluffing. Again, grow up. We can and do make determinations about "arranged for a purpose". We can do so by looking at the specified complexity of what we are observing. RDFish must be one of the most ignorant people ever.Virgil Cain
October 9, 2015
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Carpathian:
Whether biological ID is true or not, the arguments of the ID community fall far short of proving their case.
That is only the opinion of an ignoramus on an agenda. And it is very telling that evolutionism doesn't have anything to make a case with.Virgil Cain
October 9, 2015
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1) The only known intelligent beings (things that can learn, solve novel problems, experience conscious awareness) are living things Please define "living thing"Virgil Cain
October 9, 2015
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The saying goes that even a broken clock is right twice a day; however this doesn’t apply to RDFish, who somehow succeeds in getting everything backwards. How does he do it? Here is his latest gem:
RDFish: Even Egnor doesn’t deny that brains are needed for memory – he just denies that a memory is something that can be stored in a brain. He says the representation is stored in the brain, not the memory.
Here RDFish asserts that Egnor says that the representation of a memory is stored in the brain. Does Egnor say that? One has to wonder if RDFish even bothered to read Egnor’s short article, in which Egnor argues that the whole concept of storing representations of memory in the brain is “unintelligible”, “presupposes memory”, doesn’t explain anything in principle and leads to a “conceptual morass.”
Egnor: By claiming that memories are represented in the brain, materialists presuppose memory to explain memory. If a memory in the brain were stored as a representation, one would have to presuppose a memory of the code or map that linked the representation to the memory and a memory of the location of the representation in the brain so it could be accessed. Representation presupposes memory, so it can't explain memory. Materialists are also incoherent when they claim that the representation just is the memory. If the representation is the memory, it's not a representation. The assertion that memories are stored in the brain as representations presupposes memory. The assertion that some memories and thoughts -- historical facts, abstract concepts, mathematical truths -- are represented in the brain is simply unintelligible. (…) It is also undeniable that memories per se aren't stored, that representation of some memories, if it occurs, doesn't explain memory because it presupposes memory, and that representation of concepts is unintelligible. This conceptual morass besets neuroscience. What philosophers and neuroscientists who understand this problem are demanding is mere conceptual hygiene.
Is this misrepresentation of Egnor’s position by RDFish an unfortunate accident? Not at all, RDFish ALWAYS provides an incorrect depiction of the opponent’s position. But let’s focus on what RDFish does next. We are now going to see what he does best: getting things backwards.
RDFish: Well, without the representation that is stored in the brain, you don’t have a memory in the mind. Even Egnor knows that!
We can be assured that Michael Egnor does not know that. Anyone with half a brain understands that it is the other way around: one cannot have a representation of X without X. But RDFish, as per usual, claims the exact opposite: without the representation of X there can be no X . How does he do it? Like I said, getting things backwards is a pervasive pattern in RDFish’s reasoning. Another baffling example is that he insists on that CSI must explain the designer.Box
October 9, 2015
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Hi Box, Even Egnor doesn't deny that brains are needed for memory - he just denies that a memory is something that can be stored in a brain. He says the representation is stored in the brain, not the memory. Well, without the representation that is stored in the brain, you don't have a memory in the mind. Even Egnor knows that! And of course we have all those experiments that show two-way causal connections between brain activity and mental experience, and those experiments that predict our decisions from our brain activity, and so on. But you're still going to stick with this idea that the brain has nothing to do with our thinking, emotions, or perceptions? Still holding on to this idea that the brain actually doesn't do much of anything - maybe monitors our breathing and heartrate? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
October 8, 2015
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Hi UprightBiPed, Amazingly, you still don't understand. How many times do you want to do this? In case anyone else is interested, I'll make it clear what you do once again, but I have no hope you'll pay attention: UB points to things we find in biological organisms that can not possibly arise by any known physical process, and are only known in human artifacts. I tell him, OK, so what do you conclude from that? UB falls completely mute, and never actually says what he thinks we can conclude. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
October 8, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
Do you think nature builds sand castles?
Human beings build sand castles. "Nature" is not a cause, it doesn't make sense to say "nature" built something.
Is a house produced by nature or was it produced by a carpenter?
Human beings build houses. It doesn't make sense to say "nature" built something.
Is a sand castle built by wind, air, and erosion, or was it produced by a human being?
Human beings build sand castles. Wind/air and erosion do not build sand castles. I hope this exercise is helping you, because it certainly doesn't help me or anyone else.
The question is whether a human–as a cause, can be distinguished from nature–as a cause.
"Nature" is not a cause. We can identify things that human beings build, because we know a lot about human beings.
You appear to saying no, inasmuch as you are characterizing both as the same kind of cause, i. e., a natural cause. Is that your position?
The word "nature" is used in two ways: First, it is contrasted with humans or human creations; second, it is contrasted with the supernatural. I was saying that humans are not supernatural, nor do we know that their intelligence transcends natural processes. However in the first sense they are distinct by definition.
SB: Here is your basic problem. You think that CSI can be meaningfully applied to the designer, as designer. RDF: I think that CSI is a property of human beings and other complex living organisms. Don’t you? SB: The issue is what CSI in human beings means and how it can be applied.
Here, let me help: CSI stands for "complex specified information", aka "specified complexity". It is a property which can be observed and measured, and refers to a pattern that is both complex (in the sense of low probability of occurrence) and specified (corresponding to an identifiable pattern). It is measured the same way in human beings as it is in anything else. Human beings - like all living organisms - have a high level of CSI. In fact, we are chock-full of the stuff!
SB: CSI is a meaningful, accurate, or appropriate metric only when it is used to measure the designer’s product. RDF: Well, you believe that complex living organisms are the Designer’s product, right? So even by your weird rules, CSI is a meaningful, accurate, and appropriate metric when applied to human beings and other complex living things. SB: Non responsive.
Oh, I get it! Every time I show that your question or point is completely ridiculous and leave you without a response, you say "Non responsive"!
CSI in humans is an appropriate metric only insofar as the humans are considered as “products” of a designer. CSI is about the product, not the designer of the product. It does not apply to humans as designers.
You can actually measure the CSI in anything at all - living systems, inanimate objects, whatever. It's an intrinsic property of a thing, so it doesn't matter what in context the thing is being evaluated (i.e. as a designer or a designed thing). I'm surprised you don't know this. Here you go, just so you can ignore the truth once again: 1) The only known intelligent beings (things that can learn, solve novel problems, experience conscious awareness) are living things 2) Therefore the cause of the first living things is unlikely to have been intelligent. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
October 8, 2015
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Perhaps RDFish believes that by a continual process of dissembling a relevant argument might be assembled.Mung
October 8, 2015
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Carpathian,
Carp: If you however, remove the front 50% of the brain, you will see a drastic impairment.
Did you look at the cases where more than 95% of the brain is missing — see #248.
Carp: If however our “mind” was separate from our brain, a lobotomy should result in no impairment at all.
I’m sure a lobotomy doesn’t impair the mind at all, other than being disconnected from the physical world. Craig puts it like this:
It’d be like if my car became damaged. I do not cease to exist when my car starts not functioning properly, I simply lose my vessel to interact with the road and road conditions. If the car breaks down I don’t cease to exist, I simply cannot move or interact with the world around me (or are aware of the world around me) until I get out of the car and walk. Much the same as a pianist whose piano is broken. If he communicated and experienced the world through music, the loss of piano would not spell his non-existence, it would simply spell his lack of interaction with the world around him.
Carp: I disagree that a memory is a “psychological” thing. In a computer, memory consists of sequences of stored values. In a brain, memory consists of connections between neurons.
How can we get from “connections between neurons” to a memory? Egnor puts it like this:
Memories are not the kind of things that can be stored. Representations of memories can be stored, and representations of all kinds are stored on computers and in books and in photo albums all the time. Representations can be stored, but memories can't be stored. Furthermore, representation in the brain is a highly problematic concept, because the act of representation presupposes memory and intentionality and intellect and will and all sorts of mental acts that are precisely the kind of things that materialists claim are explained by representation. By claiming that memories are represented in the brain, materialists presuppose memory to explain memory. If a memory in the brain were stored as a representation, one would have to presuppose a memory of the code or map that linked the representation to the memory and a memory of the location of the representation in the brain so it could be accessed. Representation presupposes memory, so it can't explain memory. Materialists are also incoherent when they claim that the representation just is the memory. If the representation is the memory, it's not a representation.
Carp: If our memories are not in our brain, there is no point in having any complexity beyond what’s required for motor control.
The largest brains are those of sperm whales, weighing about 8 kg. Why is that?Box
October 8, 2015
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REFish
Since the topic here, as always, is science and not religion, don’t try and change the subject by introducing subjective methods. Thanks.
If I think that your knowledge is deficient in some area, I have to address that problem. Clearly, you don't understand the meaning of observing a pattern that indicates a purposeful arrangement of matter. What is it about the word "pattern" that baffles you. Do you understand why poured water does not qualify? Do you understand why the Northern Lights do not qualify? Do you understand why the sun does not qualify?
Since you cannot explain yourself, you try and make me explain things for you, pretending that this is some sort of Socratic method. I’m not going to make this up for you; either provide your answers or admit you have none.
I have already provided the answers that you asked for. Since you don't seem to understand that specified complexity, irreducible complexity, and counterflow are all objective methodologies, I have to find out why you take that position by asking pertinent questions. It hardly seems appropriate to keep repeating myself. SB: Do you think nature builds sand castles?
Human beings build these things. Since human beings are natural, then natural things build sand castles. To say “nature” per se builds them is to anthropomorphize nature, which is a fallacy.
Non responsive.
All of your examples are of HUMAN BEINGS doing these things you consider to be “arranged for a purpose”. I know you hate to hear that, which is why I have used BOLD CAPS to emphasize your problem. As far as your examples show, what “arranged for a purpose” means is “produced by a HUMAN BEING“.
Non responsive. Is a house produced by nature or was it produced by a carpenter? Is a sand castle built by wind, air, and erosion, or was it produced by a human being?
HUMAN BEINGS build these things. Since human beings are natural, then natural things build sand castles, rob houses, and so on. To say “nature” per se does these things is to anthropomorphize nature, which is a fallacy.
Non responsive. The question is whether a human--as a cause, can be distinguished from nature--as a cause. You appear to saying no, inasmuch as you are characterizing both as the same kind of cause, i. e., a natural cause. Is that your position? SB: Here is your basic problem. You think that CSI can be meaningfully applied to the designer, as designer.
I think that CSI is a property of human beings and other complex living organisms. Don’t you?
Non responsive. The issue is what CSI in human beings means and how it can be applied. CSI is a meaningful, accurate, or appropriate metric only when it is used to measure the designer’s product.
Well, you believe that complex living organisms are the Designer’s product, right? So even by your weird rules, CSI is a meaningful, accurate, and appropriate metric when applied to human beings and other complex living things.
Non responsive. CSI in humans is an appropriate metric only insofar as the humans are considered as "products" of a designer. CSI is about the product, not the designer of the product. It does not apply to humans as designers. Similarly, irreducible complexity is an appropriate metric for humans only insofar as it applies to their status as a designed product. It does not apply to humans as designers. In other words, IC is about the product, not the designer of the product.StephenB
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Box:
Carpathian: If instead, out earthly memories remain intact with our “minds”, why would we need a brain that is any different than the simplest mammal? Box: I’m not sure that we do. 1) Consider cases where removing half the brain doesn’t affect neither the person nor mental functionality.
In the case of seizures, half of the brain, one hemisphere has been removed without much impairment, but in this case, the other hemisphere was left intact. If you however, remove the front 50% of the brain, you will see a drastic impairment. If however our "mind" was separate from our brain, a lobotomy should result in no impairment at all.
Carpathian: Does the brain contain memories? Box: I don’t think so. Why? Because such a thing cannot be modeled. Egnor puts it like this: The brain is a physical thing. A memory is a psychological thing. A psychological thing obviously can’t be “stored” in the same way a physical thing can. It’s not clear how the term “store” could even apply to a psychological thing.
I disagree that a memory is a "psychological" thing. In a computer, memory consists of sequences of stored values. In a brain, memory consists of connections between neurons. From Wiki: "The human brain has a huge number of synapses. Each of the 1011 (one hundred billion) neurons has on average 7,000 synaptic connections to other neurons. It has been estimated that the brain of a three-year-old child has about 1015 synapses (1 quadrillion). This number declines with age, stabilizing by adulthood. Estimates vary for an adult, ranging from 1014 to 5 x 1014 synapses (100 to 500 trillion).[18]" If there was an afterlife, we would have have to download all this information from the brain in order to take it with us. If we didn't we wouldn't have any memory of our lives. If our memories are not in our brain, there is no point in having any complexity beyond what's required for motor control.Carpathian
October 8, 2015
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After all this, you still haven’t got a clue as to what we’re talking about here.
This is what you and I are talking about:
RD: I have asked you to explain one, single, specific, objectively empirical thing that ID means by the term “intelligence”, and you can’t do it. UB: Like SETI, the term intelligence is defined by an operational definition that relies on observable criteria. I gave you that operational definition in previous conversations. I gave it to you again upthread on September 30th, and again in the very post you are responding to now. In each instance, you have chosen not to engage that definition. Here it is again from #148: Whereas the operational definition for identifying intelligent action from an extra-terrestrial source is “the capacity to send a narrow-band radio signal detectable from earth”, the operational definition for identifying intelligent action at the origin of life is “the capacity to encode memory using spatially-oriented representations” (i.e. representations whose arrangements are independent of the minimum total potential energy state of their medium). RD: So fine, whatever caused the origin of life was able to encode memory using “spatially-oriented representations” UB: And as indicated earlier, this type of system can be exclusively identified among all other physical systems, and is found elsewhere only in recorded language and mathematics – two unambiguous products of intelligence.
And thus …
The issue is not what sorts of systems can be exclusively identified…
This is dissembling.
The issue is not that what we see in biology…
So is this.
just because a human being uses conscious thought when it produces something ...
And this.Upright BiPed
October 8, 2015
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StephenB:
We can detect matter arranged for a purpose in many ways: by recognizing the similarity of the pattern with other patterns known to have been designed,
But the only "patterns known to have been designed" are by us and other less technical life on Earth. I don't think a beaver would understand that the Hoover Dam is a dam at all. In the same way, we might look at something on Earth as being random and not recognize any design it despite the fact that a very sophisticated entity may have consciously designed it. Whether biological ID is true or not, the arguments of the ID community fall far short of proving their case. The arguments for ID require a leap of faith that is not justified by the evidence.Carpathian
October 8, 2015
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computerist:
We may be talking about a creative creator, with creativeness that cannot be measured by any form of intelligence test.
That is very true. We also cannot compare any attributes of this designer to our own. We can't use evidence of our own designs as an example of what the ID "designer" might do. Until someone can show empirical evidence of the ID "designer", there is no way of judging what that entity is capable of. Once some design work of the "designer" has been identified, only then can we compare life to his other designs and come to some conclusion that he/she was responsible for designing life.Carpathian
October 8, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
I provided you with a list that included three objective methods and three subjective methods so that you could understand the principle.
Since the topic here, as always, is science and not religion, don't try and change the subject by introducing subjective methods. Thanks.
I would be better if you would just answer my questions so that I can help you.
Since you cannot explain yourself, you try and make me explain things for you, pretending that this is some sort of Socratic method. I'm not going to make this up for you; either provide your answers or admit you have none.
Do you think nature builds sand castles?
Human beings build these things. Since human beings are natural, then natural things build sand castles. To say "nature" per se builds them is to anthropomorphize nature, which is a fallacy. All of your examples are of HUMAN BEINGS doing these things you consider to be "arranged for a purpose". I know you hate to hear that, which is why I have used BOLD CAPS to emphasize your problem. As far as your examples show, what "arranged for a purpose" means is "produced by a HUMAN BEING".
Do you think that the above examples are outside nature’s capacity or do you not?
HUMAN BEINGS build these things. Since human beings are natural, then natural things build sand castles, rob houses, and so on. To say "nature" per se does these things is to anthropomorphize nature, which is a fallacy.
Here is your basic problem. You think that CSI can be meaningfully applied to the designer, as designer.
I think that CSI is a property of human beings and other complex living organisms. Don't you?
CSI is a meaningful, accurate, or appropriate metric only when it is used to measure the designer’s product.
Well, you believe that complex living organisms are the Designer's product, right? So even by your weird rules, CSI is a meaningful, accurate, and appropriate metric when applied to human beings and other complex living things. Here you go, just so you can ignore the truth once again: 1) The only known intelligent beings (things that can learn, solve novel problems, experience conscious awareness) are complex living things 2) Therefore the cause of the first living things is unlikely to have been intelligent. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
October 8, 2015
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RDFish
I asked you for an objective method to distinguish matter that has been “arranged for a purpose”, and asked that you not give me merely your subjective opinion about what is and what is not arranged for a purpose.
I provided you with a list that included three objective methods and three subjective methods so that you could understand the principle. Do you know which ones are objective and which ones are subjective? It appears that you do not. Please don't try to evaluate anything. I would be better if you would just answer my questions so that I can help you.
You have failed to answer the question, opting instead to ask me to infer the method for you from some examples that you subjectively determine. This means that there is no objective method for determining what things are “arranged for a purpose”
This is more evidence that you don't know the difference between object methods and subjective methods.
You give me examples of things that human beings do (build sand castles, write paragraphs, rob houses, etc) and you imply those are “outside of nature’s capacity”.
Do you think nature can build a hotel? Do you think that a tornado can ransack a room, run off with the jewelry, and sell it to a pawn shop? Do you think that purposeless matter stabs a crime victim in the back 27 times? word Do you think a word processor can write an original term paper without an intelligent agent?
From this I infer that whatever human beings do are “outside of nature’s capacity”.
Do you think that the above examples are outside nature's capacity or do you not? A simple yes or no will suffice.
Since human beings did not create life, one could conclude you believe that the cause of life was not “outside of nature’s capacity”. Since that is not what you assert, you are being incoherent.
Here is your basic problem. You think that CSI can be meaningfully applied to the designer, as designer. CSI is a meaningful, accurate, or appropriate metric only when it is used to measure the designer's product. Almost all of your problems stem from that singular error. Building on that illogical premise, you draw all kinds of irrational conclusions.
1) You’ve admitted that ID is incapable of empirically supporting any inference to any attribute of the cause of life.
Nope. Not even close.
You can’t infer that it was conscious, able to use language, able to learn or understand anything, solve novel problems, and so on.
Incorrect. I said you cannot infer those things using ID methodology alone. However, I forgive you because you don't know the ID method. That you don't want to know it is a separate problem.
2) You persist in calling the cause of life “intelligent”, however, and you provide your own meaning for this term, which is “able to arrange matter for a purpose”.
. Yes, that is correct,
However, you are bluffing regarding an objective method for determining when things are “arranged for a purpose”, so you are back to where you started: No way of scientifically inferring anything whatsoever about the cause of life.
We have already settled that one. You don't know the difference between an objective method and a subjective method. I do believe, however, that you can learn if you will answer my questions.StephenB
October 8, 2015
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Hi computerist,
We may be talking about a creative creator, with creativeness that cannot be measured by any form of intelligence test.
I would agree that we cannot use intelligent tests to demonstrate that the cause of life was intelligent. In fact, at this time we have no tests that can be used in order to establish any characteristic whatsoever of whatever caused life to exist. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
October 8, 2015
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Hi StephenB, I asked you for an objective method to distinguish matter that has been "arranged for a purpose", and asked that you not give me merely your subjective opinion about what is and what is not arranged for a purpose. You have failed to answer the question, opting instead to ask me to infer the method for you from some examples that you subjectively determine. This means that there is no objective method for determining what things are "arranged for a purpose". You give me examples of things that human beings do (build sand castles, write paragraphs, rob houses, etc) and you imply those are "outside of nature's capacity". From this I infer that whatever human beings do are "outside of nature's capacity". Since human beings did not create life, one could conclude you believe that the cause of life was not "outside of nature's capacity". Since that is not what you assert, you are being incoherent. Here is where we are: 1) You've admitted that ID is incapable of empirically supporting any inference to any attribute of the cause of life. You can't infer that it was conscious, able to use language, able to learn or understand anything, solve novel problems, and so on. 2) You persist in calling the cause of life "intelligent", however, and you provide your own meaning for this term, which is "able to arrange matter for a purpose". However, you are bluffing regarding an objective method for determining when things are "arranged for a purpose", so you are back to where you started: No way of scientifically inferring anything whatsoever about the cause of life. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
October 8, 2015
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Hi UprightBiPed,
And as indicated earlier, this type of system can be exclusively identified among all other physical systems, and is found elsewhere only in recorded language and mathematics – two unambiguous products of intelligence.
After all this, you still haven't got a clue as to what we're talking about here. Only VJTorley here has understood what the issue is. The issue is not what sorts of systems can be exclusively identified among all other physical systems. I've said all along that the complex form and function of biology is unaccounted for, as anyone who can read will know. The issue is not that what we see in biology has similarities to the things that human beings build. I've said that all along, as anyone who can read will know. My position is that we do not know what caused these things to exist. Your position is incoherent, because you pretend to be offering some sort of explanation, but you refuse to say what it is. As I’ve explained endlessly, just because a human being uses conscious thought when it produces something doesn’t imply that something very different from a human being (something that doesn’t even have a nervous system!) is also going to use conscious thought when it produces the same thing. I've given any number of examples to illustrate the truth of this. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
October 8, 2015
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RDFish
Now, for once, don’t just say “You are mistaken, wind is not arranged for a purpose…”. You actually have to say HOW WE CAN TELL. Unless the answer is “whatever StephenB says is arranged for purpose”, you need to provide a way to objectively decide if something is arranged for a purpose or not.
Perhaps the Socratic method will help to awaken your intelligence. What patterns of arranged matter do you delude yourself into believing that can you observe in the wind? Can you describe those patterns? Why not? Could it be because they are not there?
It can’t simply be because it reminds you of something that people design – that doesn’t mean a thing. Instead, it has to have complex form and function… this “CSI” that IDers talk about.
What patterns of arranged matter do you think you observed in water that a farmer poured on his crops? Let's start at the very beginning. Do you understand why a sand castle and a written paragraph do qualify as matter arranged for a purpose?
Now, for once, don’t just say “You are mistaken, wind is not arranged for a purpose…”. You actually have to say HOW WE CAN TELL. Unless the answer is “whatever StephenB says is arranged for purpose”, you need to provide a way to objectively decide if something is arranged for a purpose or not.
How can you tell that a written paragraph is matter arranged for a purpose? Is it because StephenB says so?
It is impossible to know “nature’s limits”,
Well, let's review one of my recent examples concerning a tornado and a burglar: Do you think that a tornado can ransack a room, run off with the jewelry, and sell it to the hock shop? Is that beyond nature's capacity?StephenB
October 8, 2015
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We may be talking about a creative creator, with creativeness that cannot be measured by any form of intelligence test.computerist
October 8, 2015
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