Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

New Atheism: Not a cult, but a religion

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Over at Heather’s Homilies, Heather Hastie has written a post titled, Is New Atheism a Cult?, in which she argues convincingly for the negative position. Cults tend to share certain characteristics which, by and large, don’t apply to New Atheism:

  • The group members display an excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment to an individual.
  • The group members are preoccupied with bringing in new members.
  • Members are expected to devote inordinate amount of time to the group.
  • Members are preoccupied with making money.
  • Members’ subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give personal goals and activities that were of interest to the group.
  • Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

The definition used by Hastie is borrowed from the American Family Foundation, a Christian charity whose activities include rescuing people from cults. While Hastie acknowledges that “there are certainly some people who show excessive admiration towards the leaders of New Atheism,” she counters this by citing a remark by Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion, that trying to organize atheists is like trying to herd cats. I don’t think this is a very good response, as the vast majority of atheists are not New Atheists: most of them are closer to Alain de Botton than Richard Dawkins in their outlook on religion. The same point applies to the survey cited by Hastie and conducted by sociologist Dr. Phil Zuckerman, which found that atheists and secularists are “markedly less nationalistic, less prejudiced, less anti-Semitic, less racist, less dogmatic, less ethnocentric, less close-minded, and less authoritarian” than religious people. I have critiqued Dr. Zuckerman’s shoddy statistics in a previous post, but again, even if he were correct, his survey proves nothing about New Atheists.

A better response would have been to point out that the New Atheist movement has not one but several leaders, and that none of these leaders can command blind, unquestioning obedience in the way that the leader of a cult can do. The other characteristics of cults don’t really apply to the New Atheists either. Their main aim is not so much to win converts as to destroy belief in the supernatural. While some of them may spend a lot of time advocating atheism, none of them have given up their day-time jobs for the sake of devoting themselves to the cause. Nor do I know of any New Atheists who are actively involved in soliciting money from donors. And I have never heard of a New Atheist cutting ties with family members and friends, or living apart from society. In short: the term “cult” simply does not describe the New Atheists well.

I might add that a recent book purporting to show that New Atheism is a cult has been convincingly rebutted here and here.

But a cult is one thing, and a religion is quite another. In today’s post, I’m going to explain why I think that New Atheism can be fairly described as a religion.

Why a religion doesn’t have to involve belief in the supernatural

Let’s get two obvious objections out of the way immediately. First, many people would argue that since atheism is defined in purely negative terms, it cannot be legitimately referred to as a religion. Heather Hastie articulates this point very effectively in her post, Is New Atheism a cult?:

The important thing to note however, is that being an atheist does not bring with it any belief system whatsoever. There are dozens of analogies for this out there. Here are a few:

  • Saying atheism is a religion is like saying “off” is a TV channel.
  • Saying atheism is a religion is like saying bald is a hair colour.
  • Saying atheism is a religion is like saying not playing golf is a sport.
  • Sating atheism is a religion is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby.

In response: while the foregoing analogies successfully rebut the notion that atheism is a religion, what they overlook is that there’s more to New Atheism than just atheism. New Atheism doesn’t just deny the existence of God; it also provides its adherents with a coherent philosophy of where we came from, where we’re going, what’s real and what’s not, and how we can know the difference. Insofar as it supplies a systematic set of answers to life’s big questions, New Atheism has quite a lot in common with religions such as Christianity and Buddhism. The question I will attempt to answer in this post is whether New Atheism deserves to be placed in the same category as these faiths.

Second, it is argued that since New Atheism rejects belief in the supernatural, it cannot possibly be called a religion. The problem with this argument is that by the same token, you’d have to say that Jainism (which views karma as acting in a purely mechanistic fashion and which utterly rejects the notion of a supernatural Creator) is not a religion. Confucianism and Taoism, which believe in a supreme cosmic order (called Tian or Tao) but not a supernatural Deity, would also fail to qualify as religions. And what about Gautama Buddha, who rejected the idea of a Creator God and a Cosmic Self, and who taught that even the Vedic spirit-beings (devas) are not important and need not be worshiped, because they have not yet attained enlightenment? If belief in supernatural deities is what defines a religion, then the Buddha cannot be called the founder of a religion.

I might add that according to the article on “Religion” in West’s Encyclopedia of American Law, 2nd edition (2008 The Gale Group, Inc.), belief in the supernatural is not a part of the legal definition of religion in American law, either:

The Supreme Court has interpreted religion to mean a sincere and meaningful belief that occupies in the life of its possessor a place parallel to the place held by God in the lives of other persons. The religion or religious concept need not include belief in the existence of God or a supreme being to be within the scope of the First Amendment…

In addition, a belief does not need to be stated in traditional terms to fall within First Amendment protection. For example, Scientology — a system of beliefs that a human being is essentially a free and immortal spirit who merely inhabits a body — does not propound the existence of a supreme being, but it qualifies as a religion under the broad definition propounded by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has deliberately avoided establishing an exact or a narrow definition of religion because freedom of religion is a dynamic guarantee that was written in a manner to ensure flexibility and responsiveness to the passage of time and the development of the United States. Thus, religion is not limited to traditional denominations. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

A religion does, however, need to have an object of ultimate concern – something that its members care deeply about. For New Atheists, the object of ultimate concern is simply the flourishing of society itself: they believe that the world would be a much better place if society was entirely regulated by reason, and not faith. And this is something that the New Atheists care passionately about. The sheer volume of books that they have written in support of their cause in recent years attests to that fact.

Other distinguishing features of a religion

I would also argue that a religion has several other distinguishing features, which (as I’ll argue below) apply to New Atheism:

(a) a single, unifying explanation of what we are, where we came from and where we are going (Gauguin’s “big questions”);

(b) a set of prescriptions for members, which must not be deviated from (i.e. a “straight and narrow path”);

(c) a tendency for even minor alterations to either the religion’s factual claims or its prescriptions to yield conclusions which diverge radically from those taught by the religion;

(d) an epistemic theory describing how the claims made by the religion can be known to be true, by believers;

(e) some unresolved epistemic issues, relating to what we know and how we know it;

(f) the possibility of multiple and conflicting strategies for the advancement of the movement (i.e. evangelization); and

(g) a tendency to split into sects, due to (c), (e) and (f).

I imagine that readers will regard features (a) and (b) as fairly uncontroversial, although I should point out that some religions (such as Confucianism and to a lesser extent, Buddhism) are heavily pragmatic, and tend to discourage speculation about where we came from and where we are going. However, the contrast between speculative and pragmatic religions should not be overstated. Confucianism, for instance, attaches great importance to ancestor worship, and although it rejects belief in a personal Deity, its adherents often refer to the “Mandate of Heaven” (see also here). For its part, Buddhism has a very detailed cosmology, with multiple realms of existence, each inhabited by its own special kinds of beings, and there are also sects of Buddhism which offer vivid descriptions of the afterlife.

The other conditions which I have listed will probably raise some eyebrows. In short, what I’m claiming is that one of the defining characteristics of any religion is its built-in tendency to split into sects. (Even Confucianism, which is not an organized religion, has no less than eight different schools, while centuries ago, Buddhism split into as many as twenty sects.) Why is this so? What makes religions so prone to schism?

The impossibility of building a complete, epistemically closed system of thought

In 1931, the mathematician Kurt Godel demonstrated that the quest to find a complete and consistent set of axioms for all mathematics is an impossible one. The same, I would suggest, applies to religion. Since every religion propounds a set of truths, it needs to offer believers a set of epistemic principles which tell them how they can be sure that the beliefs they espouse are actually true. However, I would argue that any attempt to find an account of reality whose epistemic postulates (regarding what we can know and how we know it) are both self-justifying and capable of telling us how to answer any question we may want to ask about the world, is a vain one. With any system of thought, there will always be some unresolved issues about what we know and how we know it.

How minor changes in premises can yield radically divergent conclusions

Students of economics will be aware of the phenomenon of unstable equilibrium, where a model or system does not gravitate back to equilibrium after it is shocked. Consider the case of a marble sitting on top of an upside-down bowl. If the marble is nudged even slightly, it will roll off the bowl, without returning to its original position. In real life, markets with an unstable equilibrium are rare, although business-cycle contractions and stock market crashes are two probable cases in point. But if we look at systems of thought, unstable equilibrium is not the exception: it is the rule. I first became aware of this about a decade ago, when I was writing my Ph.D. thesis on animal minds. I had originally planned to include two chapters on our ethical obligations to animals and other living creatures, although in the end, I decided to cut them out and focus entirely on animal minds, in order to stay within my word limit. While writing these chapters on ethics, however, I was astonished to find that even minor changes in the ethical premises yielded drastically different conclusions, with regard to the extent of our obligations towards animals and other living things. I tried tightening them slightly or loosening them slightly, but all I did was see-saw back and forth, between extremes that were obviously either too burdensome on humanity (rendering even agriculture a morally dubious enterprise) or so permissive that they could be used to justify killing of animals and other creatures for practically any reason. Finding a sensible happy medium was very difficult, and in the end, I’m not sure if I really succeeded or not.

All religions enjoin their adherents to follow a “straight and narrow” path of some sort. What the foregoing considerations suggest to me is that religions, which attempt to codify our moral duties, might be susceptible to the same problem that beset me when I was trying to draw up a set of ethical principles that would govern our interactions with other living things. Minor changes in these principles can have drastic results, tending towards either a harsh moral rigorism or a self-satisfied laxism. And if we look at contemporary Christianity (and to a lesser extent, Judaism), it is striking to observe how differing attitudes towards the ultimate source of authority in religion have recently triggered rifts within Christian denominations (e.g. Anglicanism) over ethical issues (e.g. abortion, homosexuality and premarital sex) which dwarf the traditional divisions between denominations, so that an evangelical (low-church) Anglican will probably have more in common with a Baptist (say) than with a broad-church Anglican.

The “see-saw effect” that I noticed while writing on our duties towards animals isn’t limited to ethical matters. I would suggest that any kind of injunction – whether it concerns how we should think, what we should believe, what we should say or how we should act – is vulnerable to the same distortions, if modified. If we look at the history of Christianity between the fourth and seventh centuries, we may be puzzled that the controversies about the Trinity and about the person and natures of Jesus Christ were so heated, but there was a very good reason for that. The Arians who insisted that “The Son was made from nothing” might have revered God’s Son as the first and greatest of creatures, but a creature cannot save you. Only God can do that. Obviously, too, if you believe in a Trinitarian God, then the way you pray to such a Being will be very different from the way you would pray to a Unitarian God: the latter Being sounds more remote and less personal, so you won’t confide in it with your hopes, dreams and worries, as you would do if you believed you were talking to a community of persons. Finally, with regard to Jesus Christ, you cannot view Him as “one of us” if you believe His humanity was absorbed into His Divinity like a piece of burning iron is absorbed into the fire (as Monophysites and Coptic Christians do). Nor can you celebrate the Annunciation as the moment in history when God became man, if you believe that there was only a moral union between Christ’s Divinity and His humanity (as Nestorians do). In short: the theological controversies of the fourth to seventh centuries mattered, because they had powerful implications for the way in which people related to their God.

How new issues can trigger religious splits

Religions are dynamic entities, and they continually have to deal with new issues which their founders (or founding texts) didn’t explicitly address. It’s simply not possible to define a set of principles (be they credal or ethical) which can answer every new question that arises, because all statements are to some degree ambiguous. Take, for instance, the Christian affirmation that there are three Persons in one God. By itself, this statement cannot tell us whether we should think of God as having three Minds (one for each Person) or one Divine Mind, which each person realizes in His own unique way. We need a “living voice” to address questions like that. And as you can imagine, when new pronouncements are made – be they on the nature of God or the afterlife or how we should treat others – there is always the potential for a division of opinion, and a schism.

A further source of division: strategies for evangelization

So far we have talked about religious beliefs and injunctions as sources of potential divisions. But strategies for evangelization can prove to be sources of division as well. The best modern example of this phenomenon comes from the Soviet Union, whose dominant religion was that of Communism. (Communism, being a materialistic faith, could be described as an “earth religion,” but what makes it unusual was its linear view of time, and its promise of a bright and glorious future. As a rule, earth religions tend to be cyclic; Communion was a Utopian earth religion.) As readers of George Orwell’s Animal Farm will recall, the period of the 1920s was characterized by a brutal internal struggle between internationalists such as Leon Trotsky who wanted to advance the cause of Communism by fomenting revolutions abroad, and nationalists like Joseph Stalin, who advocated “socialism in one country.”

Religions, then, are inherently divisive for three reasons: their tenets and guiding principles are exquisitely sensitive to even minor changes in wording; their creeds and dogmas, by themselves, are incapable of resolving new questions, or matters where differing interpretations might arise; and their leaders may fiercely disagree on strategies for evangelization.

So how does the New Atheism stack up? Does it qualify as a religion?

Is New Atheism a religion?

Answering Gauguin’s “big questions”

There can be no doubt that New Atheism endeavors to answer the “big questions” of what we are, where we came from and where we are going. On the New Atheist account, everything we see around us, including ourselves, is the product of unguided processes, which can be described by mathematical equations (laws of Nature), acting on the matter and energy in our universe, whose original state can be modeled by a set of initial conditions. Books such as Alex Rosenberg’s The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: Enjoying Life without Illusions, Richard Dawkins’s The Magic of Reality: How We Know What’s Really True and Lawrence Krauss’s A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing are all examples of attempts by leading New Atheists (and fellow-travelers) to offer a coherent world-view that answers all of Gauguin’s “big questions.”

A straight and narrow path

In his book, The Moral Landscape, published in 2010, New Atheist Sam Harris contends that science can answer moral questions and that it can promote human well-being. According to Harris, the only rational moral framework is one where the term “morally good” means: whatever tends to increase the “well-being of conscious creatures.” Contrary to the widely accepted notion that you cannot derive an “ought” from an “is,” Harris maintains that science can determine human values, insofar as it can tell us which values are conducive to the flourishing of the human species. Harris’s approach to morality is a utilitarian one, which means that for him, the object of ultimate concern is the flourishing of the species as a whole. Indeed, he is famous for contending that it would be morally justifiable to push an innocent fat man into the path of an oncoming train, to prevent the train from running over five people further down the track. Harris’s book on morality has been highly praised by atheist luminaries such as Richard Dawkins, Steven Pinker and Lawrence Krauss.

The prescriptions of most religions are explicitly ethical (e.g. “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself”), but they need not be: Buddhism, for instance, tells its followers to free themselves from craving by following the Eightfold Path, in order to avoid suffering. In the case of New Atheism, the underlying prescription is that you should embrace skepticism and use the scientific method, if you want to know anything at all about the world. The ethical principles are secondary: they arise from the application of this scientific principle to the study of human nature.

The potential for radically divergent conclusions arising from minor alterations to the religion’s tenets

As we saw, religions are distinguished by the interesting property that even minor variations in their founding principles (both factual and prescriptive) yield drastically different conclusions. When we examine New Atheism, we find that it possesses the same property, regardless of whether we look at its metaphysical statements about reality or its prescriptions about how we should think and act.

New Atheism is a materialistic world-view which denies the existence of libertarian free-will – a notion that its adherents regard as mystical mumbo jumbo. Mental states are said to supervene on underlying physical states: in other words, it is not possible that two individuals with the same physical arrangement of atoms in their bodies could have different mental states. The implicit assumption here is that there is no such thing as “top-down” causation within the material realm, and that causation is invariably “bottom-up.” But if higher-level holistic states of the brain and central nervous system can influence micro-states at the neuronal level, then it no longer follows that each of us is the product of our genes plus our environment. Again, New Atheists consider the universe to be a causally closed system. But if we allow the possibility of a multiverse, then it seems to me that we cannot guarantee causal closure. If we grant that a scientist in some other universe may have created our own universe, then how can we be sure that there has been no interaction between external intelligent agents and our universe, during its entire 13.8-billion-year history?

The “Science works” comic that was indirectly alluded to by Professor Richard Dawkins, in a talk at Oxford’s Sheldonian Theater on 15 February 2013. Image courtesy of xkcd comics. Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 2.5 License.

The New Atheist injunction that science is the only road to knowledge is no less fragile. The problem with this view, as I have pointed out previously, is that it leaves us with no way of justifying the scientific enterprise, which rests on a host of metaphysical assumptions about reality. (By the way, Richard Dawkins’s “Science works” is not an adequate justification, for it gives us absolutely no reason to believe that science will continue to work in the future. In other words, it fails to solve the problem of induction.) But if we allow even one of these metaphysical assumptions to stand alongside the foundational principles of science as a basis for knowledge, then we have violated our claim that all knowledge is based on science alone, and we can no longer call ourselves empiricists. What’s more, if there are some metaphysical truths that we are capable of knowing, then we have to provide some account of how we come to know these metaphysical truths. Are they intuitions which we “just know,” or do we infer them as presuppositions of science? We also have to confront the question: why should a mind which evolved for survival on the African savanna be capable of addressing metaphysical questions? (See also my article, Faith vs. Fact: Jerry Coyne’s flawed epistemology.)

When we look at the ethical principles of the New Atheism, we find still more fragility. Take Sam Harris’s assertion that we should strive to increase the “well-being of conscious creatures.” If we strive instead for the well-being of all self-conscious creatures, then sentient non-human animals won’t matter at all, and if we strive for the welfare of all living creatures, then even the humble bacterium will matter, and conceivably, the interests of bacteria (which are very numerous) could dwarf those of sentient animals (which comprise but a tiny twig on the tree of life). Again, is it creatures themselves which matter, or the species they belong to? What’s good for a species might turn out to be bad for the majority of individuals belonging to that species. And if it’s individuals that matter, then is it the greatest happiness of the greatest number of individuals that we should be trying to maximize, or are there certain kinds of harm which we should never allow even one individual to suffer? Supposing (as utilitarians do) that our duty is to maximize overall happiness, are we supposed to maximize the average happiness of all conscious individuals, or the total amount of happiness experienced by individuals? For instance, is a world with a few very happy individuals better or worse than a world with lots of slightly happy ones?

An epistemic theory of how we know the religion’s claims to be true

Any religion has to provide some sort of account as to how its factual and ethical claims can be known to be true, for the benefit of its adherents (who may be subject to doubts from time to time). Supernatural religions commonly cite evidence of miracles: for instance, the kuzari principle (which basically says that you can’t fool all of the people all of the time) is very popular with Jews (who use it to support their claim that God worked public miracles that were witnessed by all of the Israelites), and for their part, Christian apologists (such as Drs. Tim and Lydia McGrew) appeal to the strength of testimony by multiple eyewitnesses to build a cumulative case for the resurrection of Jesus. Hindus argue that the law of karma and the notion of reincarnation make more sense than the belief that we all go to Heaven or Hell when we die (see also here). Muslims are somewhat unusual in that they eschew appeals to miracles; instead, they argue that the Quran is self-authenticating because of its singular literary qualities.

When we look at less supernatural religions, such as Confucianism and Buddhism, we find that the method by which they justify their claims and injunctions is a pragmatic one. Thus Buddhists hold that anyone can verify the Four Noble Truths on the basis of their own personal experience, without having to go to some higher authority. Confucianism’s chief apologist (if you can call him that) was Mencius, who argued that human nature is inherently good, and that both experience and reason attest to the fact that we all have a built-in knowledge of good and evil, and of the will of Heaven.

New Atheism resembles these latter religions in that it appeals to pragmatic criteria, in order to back up its epistemic claims – the main difference being that New Atheists do not regard introspection as a valid source of knowledge (even self-knowledge), whereas Buddhists and Confucians do. The arguments for New Atheism can be summed up in five words: “Science works; nothing else does.” The distinctive claim of New Atheism, as a religion, is its cocksure assertion that the scientific method offers the only reliable way of knowing anything about our world, and that any claims which cannot be tested using this method can be regarded as nonsense. The scientific method assumes that we can perform (and replicate) experiments: for that to happen, we need entities that behave in accordance with scientific laws. Since there is no scientific way of verifying the existence of lawless entities, such as pixies or spirits, we can set them aside. Finally, we can apply the scientific method to human nature itself, and investigate what makes people tick and what is conducive to their flourishing, and to the flourishing of society in general. Indeed, we can do the same for all sentient beings. What New Atheism claims to offer its adherents, then, is a way of understanding our world and of answering any meaningful question that we can ask about it. In this respect, it functions very like a religion.

Unresolved epistemic issues

Many critics of New Atheism have argued that it is unable to justify its materialistic claim that the only things that exist are entities which are subject to physical laws of some sort, its bold epistemic claim that the scientific method offers us the only route to knowledge, and its ethical claim that we should strive to increase the well-being of conscious creatures. For the most part, New Atheists have responded by shifting the burden of proof: if there exists immaterial entities such as spirits, then the onus is on people who believe in them to supply proof (or at least, very strong evidence) of their existence; if there are non-scientific ways of knowing, then the onus is on people who defend these ways of knowing so explain how they work and we we should regard them as reliable; and if we have any other duties besides increasing the well-being of conscious creatures, then the onus is on people who claim that we have these additional duties to explain what they are and why we have them.

While this strategy of shifting the burden of proof has been a very effective tactic against other religious believers, it fails to address the arguments of those who are skeptical of skepticism itself. We are told that the only entities which are real are ones which obey physical laws, but we are not told what a physical law is, or what it means for something to obey a law, or why we should believe that these laws will continue to hold in the future. We are not told why the scientific way of knowing is reliable for all times and places – or even why it works for any time and place. Lastly, we are not told why we have any moral duties towards others. Indeed, Professor Jerry Coyne, who is himself a leading New Atheist, has criticized Sam Harris’s claim that we can deduce an “ought” from an “is” (see here and here). Unlike most New Atheists, Coyne holds that ethical norms arise from shared subjective preferences (which have been shaped by our evolutionary past): most of us happen to like living in a society which promotes people’s happiness and strives to reduce suffering, but there’s no objective reason why we should promote other people’s happiness or reduce their suffering.

In short: New Atheism faces a real epistemic crisis, which it has so far failed to confront. So why do its adherents seem so unperturbed by this crisis? The real reason, I would argue, is that it doesn’t have to address all these unresolved epistemic issues in order to secure adherents; all it has to do is out-perform its leading competitors in the market for ideas. So long as New Atheism can poke fun at Christians and Muslims and make their epistemic claims look foolish, then it will have accomplished its objective of looking like a better and more rational alternative. New Atheism faces no real competition from die-hard skeptics who claim that we cannot know anything, for the very simple reason that few people find such a philosophy attractive – and even if they did, nobody can live in accordance with such a world-view on a day-to-day basis.

Arguments about strategies for evangelization

At the present time, the key point of division within the New Atheist movement is: should New Atheism be a moral movement?

In recent years, the New Atheist movement has fragmented, largely because of the extremely crude sexist behavior of certain online atheists, which skeptical blogger and Skepchick founder Rebecca Watson (pictured above, courtesy of Wikipedia) first drew attention to in her December 2011 post, Reddit makes me hate atheists. In August 2012, after penning an explosive article titled, How I Unwittingly Infiltrated the Boy’s Club & Why It’s Time for a New Wave of Atheism, atheist blogger and scientist Jen McCreight launched a new movement called Atheism+, whose ideals she defined as follows:

We are…
Atheists plus we care about social justice,
Atheists plus we support women’s rights,
Atheists plus we protest racism,
Atheists plus we fight homophobia and transphobia,
Atheists plus we use critical thinking and skepticism

The feminist and atheist blogger Greta Christina lent her support to the fledgling movement, with her post, Atheism Plus: The New Wave of Atheism, and leading atheist Richard Carrier shortly afterwards followed suit, in his post, The New Atheism +.

Atheism Plus has turned out to be even more intolerant than the New Atheism from which it split off. One comment made by Carrier on his blog is chilling in its strident advocacy of publicly denouncing anyone who doesn’t toe the line and espouse the principles of Atheism Plus:

If you mean “rational people will be making mental notes of who is irrational, then documenting it, and publicly informing their colleagues of it,” then yes. There is no other way to promote a rational society than to call out those who are irrational and denounce and marginalize them as such. No longer will we treat them as one of us. Because they are not.

There won’t be any central committee for this. Just the internet and the evidence.

Accept it or GTFO.

But the real problem with Atheism Plus, as I see it, is that by adding certain ethical tenets to New Atheism, it implicitly concedes that the epistemic principles espoused by New Atheists (i.e. universal skepticism and the use of the scientific method to assess truth claims) are incapable, by themselves, of yielding those tenets. Such an admission constitutes a striking lack of confidence in New Atheism as a philosophy – for if it cannot tell us what is right and wrong, then it is ethically deficient.

Atheist blogger P.Z. Myers concedes as much in an August 2012 post titled, Following up on last night’s Atheism+ discussion, where he quotes from an article he previously wrote in Free Inquiry, titled, Atheism’s Third Wave:

Science is neutral on moral concerns; it only describes what is, now how it ought to be. And this is true; science is a tool that can be used equally well for curing diseases or building bombs. But scientists are not and should not be morally neutral, nor should scientific organizations or culture be excluded from defining the appropriate uses of science…

Similarly, atheism may be value-neutral, but atheists and atheist organizations should not be…

… Because I’m an atheist and share common cause with every other human being on the planet in desiring to live my one life with equal opportunity, I suggest that atheists ought to fight for equality for all, economic security for all, and universally available health and education services… Ours should be a movement that welcomes all sexes, races, ages, and abilities and encourages an appreciation of human richness. Atheism ought to be a progressive social movement in addition to being a philosophical and scientific position, because living in a godless universe means something to humanity.

Commenting on his article, Myers added:

And if you don’t agree with any of that — and this is the only ‘divisive’ part — then you’re an asshole. I suggest you form your own label, “Asshole Atheists” and own it, proudly. I promise not to resent it or cry about joining it.

Several points are apparent from the foregoing extract. First, there is indeed a major ethical rift between New Atheists and Atheists plus, over whether science can establish moral truths. Myers evidently regards science as value-neutral, while New Atheist Sam Harris is convinced that science can tell us what is right and wrong.

Second, Myers fails to address the metaphysical issue of who qualifies as a person. He claims to welcome people of all ages and abilities: well then, what about newborn babies who lack both language and self-consciousness, or for that matter, first-trimester fetuses, who are not yet sentient but whose bodies are running a genetic program which will enable them to develop into sentient and (ultimately) rational beings, when placed in a suitable environment (i.e. the womb)? There is a very good reason why Myers does not mention these issues in his blog post: as I pointed out four years ago in an article I wrote on Uncommon Descent, Myers doesn’t believe that newborn babies are persons, or that they are fully human. “I’ve had a few. They weren’t,” he writes.

Third, Myers’ goals seem unobjectionable… until you read the fine print. “Universally available health and education services” sounds lovely, but does that mean that health care and education ought to be free for everyone who cannot pay, regardless of cost? How far would Myers like the welfare state to extend? And how much would he tax the rich?

Fourth, even if you agree with Myers’ goals, you might reasonably disagree with the means he proposes for attaining them.

Fifth, it never seems to occur to Myers that inclusiveness might not always be a good thing, and that some forms of discrimination might be rational. Welcoming people of all races and sexes is one thing; welcoming people of all fetishes and paraphilias is quite another. Additionally, an honest skeptic would not prejudge the issue of whether homosexuality or transgenderism is normal, but would instead keep an open mind. Myers’ mind strikes me as firmly closed shut on these issues.

Advocates of Atheism plus also faced some flak from critics who asked why they didn’t simply call themselves humanists. In response, atheist blogger Ashley Miller penned a thoughtful reply titled, The difference between “atheism +” and humanism, in which she wrote:

The desire to hold on to “atheism” rather than use the term “humanism” isn’t from a fundamental difference of goals and beliefs, but from a difference of self-definition. I personally like “atheism +” because it’s more confrontational, embraces a minority position that is loathed by many, and it is more transparent about the belief that religion is one of the root causes of many social injustices. My humanism is more than just secular, it is anti-religion.

Meanwhile, there appears to be no sign of a rapprochement between the New Atheist Old Guard and the younger leaders of the Atheism Plus movement, many of whom think that the leading spokesmen for the New Atheist movement have outlived their usefulness. In a recent article in the Guardian, (Richard Dawkins has lost it: ignorant sexism gives atheists a bad name, September 18, 2014), journalist Adam Lee reported on the widespread disillusionment among atheists with Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion:

He may have convinced himself that he’s the Most Rational Man Alive, but if his goal is to persuade everyone else that atheism is a welcoming and attractive option, Richard Dawkins is doing a terrible job. Blogger and author Greta Christina told me, “I can’t tell you how many women, people of color, other marginalized people I’ve talked with who’ve told me, ‘I’m an atheist, but I don’t want anything to do with organized atheism if these guys are the leaders.’”

It’s not just women who are outraged by Dawkins these days: author and blogger PZ Myers told me, “At a time when our movement needs to expand its reach, it’s a tragedy that our most eminent spokesman has so enthusiastically expressed such a regressive attitude.”

Following the publication of Lee’s article, New Atheists sprang to Dawkins’s defense. Jerry Coyne swiftly responded in a post titled, Adam Lee has lost it:

…[L]et me say this: I am friends with both Richard [Dawkins] and Sam [Harris], have interacted with them a great deal, and have never heard a sexist word pass their lips. (You may discount that if you wish since I have a Y chromosome, but I speak the truth.) Both have seemed to me seriously concerned with women’s rights, particularly as they’re abrogated by religion, and both have written about that. But does that count? No, it’s all effaced by a few remarks that can be twisted into accusations of sexism and, yes, misogyny, which is “hatred of women.”

These men do not hate women, and their opponents are ideologues. Michael Nugent, head of Atheist Ireland and one of the most conciliatory atheists I know, has tried reaching out to those who denigrate Richard and Sam, asking for dialogue and requesting that the hounders behave like civilized human beings — as Nugent himself always has. No dice. For trying to be conciliatory, Nugent has been, and is being, vilified. It’s disgusting. I feel sorry for the man, who is learning the hard way that good intentions are not enough to stay a pack of baying hounds.

Reading these exchanges, I get the impression that the divide between New Atheists and members of Atheist Plus is no longer just about strategy or even about feminism; it’s widened into a debate about how we identify social wrongs that need to be righted.

A tendency to split into sects

Back in 2009, the New Atheist movement was still in its infancy. At that time, NPR reporter Barbara Bradley Haggerty wrote an online article titled, A Bitter Rift Divides Atheists, in which she cited the concerns of Center for Inquiry founder Paul Kurtz, that New Atheism would set the atheist movement back:

“I consider them atheist fundamentalists,” he says. “They’re anti-religious, and they’re mean-spirited, unfortunately. Now, they’re very good atheists and very dedicated people who do not believe in God. But you have this aggressive and militant phase of atheism, and that does more damage than good.”

He hopes this new approach will fizzle.

“Merely to critically attack religious beliefs is not sufficient. It leaves a vacuum. What are you for? We know what you’re against, but what do you want to defend?”

Six years have passed since then, and as we have seen, Kurtz’s question, “What are you for?” has now split the New Atheist movement itself down the middle, with the emergence of a vocal splinter group called Atheism plus.

However, it would be grossly simplistic to think that New Atheism is divided into only two factions, as Jack Vance points out in a 2013 post on his blog, Atheist Revolution:

You see, I reject the perspective that this rift represents an open conflict between two well-defined sides (i.e., the Freethought Blogs/Skepchick/Atheism+ side vs. the Slymepit side). I understand the appeal of simplifying this by pretending that there are only two sides and that these are those sides. It is very difficult to talk about a conflict involving more than two sides, and simplification is damned tempting. Unfortunately, this is a case where simplifying things to two sides does not reflect reality.

In the meantime, the rift between New Atheism and other atheists has, if anything, intensified. New Atheist Jerry Coyne recently authored a post titled, Why do many atheists hate the New Atheists? The title says it all, really. Coyne sums up his own gloomy thoughts on the subject:

The critique of New Atheists by other atheists seems to consist largely of ad hominem accusations, distortions of what they’ve said (Sam Harris is particularly subject to this), and, most of all, complaints that they dare criticize religion publicly…

Now I’m perfectly happy accepting that it’s not the style of some nonbelievers to openly declare their atheism, much less to publicly criticize religion. But why go after the ones who do, especially when they’re simply articulating the reasons why the non-vociferous atheists have rejected religion? …

These are just some tentative thoughts, but the rancor of atheist criticism about New Atheists repeatedly surprises and saddens me. And I don’t fully understand it.

Finally, back in January 2013, neurologist and skeptic Stephen Novella, who identifies as a scientific skeptic rather than a New Atheist, wrote a thoughtful and conciliatory post, in which he argued that skepticism is not defined by the positions it takes on various issues, but by the methods it uses to assess claims. Novella also offered some reflections on the tendency of the skeptical movement to fragment over time:

All movements have internal divisions, and these divisions grow as the movement grows. There is a natural tendency for movements to splinter over time into sub-groups based upon these divisions. I think that would be disastrous for us, given that we are still a relatively small movement with a monumental task before us, including highly motivated (and often well-funded) opponents who wish our failure.

The upshot of all this is that the atheist movement – and especially the New Atheist movement – is increasingly looking like a house divided. Sectarianism, which is a defining feature of religion, appears to apply equally to New Atheism.

Conclusion

There is a common saying: “If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.” We have seen that New Atheism bears a number of striking resemblances to religion, on seven points: it attempts to answer the “big questions”; it prescribes a straight and narrow path for its followers; minor alterations to its tenets yield radically divergent conclusions; it attempts to provide an answer as to how its adherents can know how that its claims to be true; it has unresolved epistemic issues relating to what we know and how we can know it; its leaders argue about strategies for evangelization; and it has a tendency to splinter into sects. In view of these many points of similarity, I think it is fair to conclude that New Atheism belongs in the same category as the creeds it criticizes. While it is definitely not a cult, it can legitimately be called a religion.

What do readers think?

Comments
Upright BiPed: If you remove one, does translation fail? Is your claim that there is no simpler possible system that could act as a precursor to genetic translation.Zachriel
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
01:15 PM
1
01
15
PM
PDT
Upright BiPed: Consider translation, a process whereby one arrangement of matter evokes an effect, while another arrangement of matter determines what the effect will be. The claim is that irreducible structures can't evolve, so any counterexample will suffice. The mammalian middle ear is a canonical example.Zachriel
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
01:07 PM
1
01
07
PM
PDT
AC, that there are some two dozen variants on the genetic code (and don't forget DNA vs RNA versions) plus actual intelligent intervention to change is behaviour to put in additional effects, should suffice to show that there is not a physico-dynamic determination of the relationship between D/RNA triplets and the delivered AA. Actually, start from the tRNA, which is loaded with AA's at a universal coupler CCA end (itself taking advantage of how AAs have an NH2 end and a COOH end which allows standardised chaining), and uses an anticodon at the opposite end when folded to control which tRNA loads its AA in sequence. Where, too, the standardised tool tip implies that AA's are in principle reprogrammable, it is the tRNA loading process that controls which AA is linked to which anticodon through the universal coupler at the CCA tip. This, you must know; so the attempt to suggest to the contrary just above shows a questionable intent on your part not to actually look at the implications of the mechanisms involved. KFkairosfocus
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
12:58 PM
12
12
58
PM
PDT
Hey Upright, you never responded last time I brought this up, maybe you will this time. Recent research has shown that the second nucleotide of each codon correlates with the addition of amino acids of certain hydrophobicity. This means there is a chemical relationship between nucleic acid and amino acid sequence. What are your thoughts?Alicia Cartelli
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
12:34 PM
12
12
34
PM
PDT
Consider a canonical example, the mammalian middle ear … Remove one, and the system fails. Could such a system have evolved from a simpler system?
Consider translation, a process whereby one arrangement of matter evokes an effect, while another arrangement of matter determines what the effect will be. If you remove one, does translation fail?Upright BiPed
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
12:01 PM
12
12
01
PM
PDT
Carpathian
I agree with StephenB that the only entity capable of being a Creator of life, is a god-like one.
That is a philosophical argument based on reason. It has nothing to do with ID's scientific inference, nor is it based on religious faith. It is what logic tells us, no more, no less.
Therefore, ID is a Genesis version of Creationism.
My disposition changes when people try to put words in my mouth. ID methodology says nothing about what the Creator or designer can do. ID is about the effects of design, not the quality of the designer. ID is NOT a "Genesis version of Creationism." If you understood its methodology, or even cared enough to learn, you would not write such things. I really do wish anti-ID partisans could learn to make distinctions.StephenB
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
10:50 AM
10
10
50
AM
PDT
Carpathian:
Saying that life designed life is not an explanation.
Of course it is. And it also tells us how to investigate it.
If the claim is that life is improbable without an intelligent cause,
That isn't the claim. The claim is your position doesn't even belong in a probability discussion.
then the intelligent cause is what I want to examine in order to see if it is the cause of life.
Stomp your feet and hold your breath until you get that. Please.Virgil Cain
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
10:49 AM
10
10
49
AM
PDT
Virgil Cain:
Carpathian: You cannot use a life-form as an explanation of life. Virgil Cain: We can if we are limiting ourselves to proximate causes as in the explanation for life on earth could definitely be via some similar life form.
Saying that life designed life is not an explanation. If the claim is that life is improbable without an intelligent cause, then the intelligent cause is what I want to examine in order to see if it is the cause of life.Carpathian
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
10:22 AM
10
10
22
AM
PDT
Carpathian:
Read what StephenB has said.
ID is not about the designer. ID does NOT prevent anyone from discussing the designer
You cannot use a life-form as an explanation of life.
We can if we are limiting ourselves to proximate causes as in the explanation for life on earth could definitely be via some similar life form.Virgil Cain
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
10:14 AM
10
10
14
AM
PDT
Virgil Cain:
To be perfectly clear- ID is NOT about the intelligent designer(s).
Read what StephenB has said. You cannot use a life-form as an explanation of life.Carpathian
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
10:02 AM
10
10
02
AM
PDT
Mung: But why would such a system evolve without any objective purpose? The objectively observable function is increased high-frequency hearing, a selective advantage for both predator and prey. (Think of the crunching of leaves or the snap of a twig when stepped upon.)Zachriel
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
09:37 AM
9
09
37
AM
PDT
Zachrieks:
Consider a canonical example, the mammalian middle ear. The three ossicles; malleus, incus, and stapes; are in a precise relationship with one another. Remove one, and the system fails. Could such a system have evolved from a simpler system?
Sure. Why not. But why would such a system evolve without any objective purpose?Mung
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
09:35 AM
9
09
35
AM
PDT
Carpathian:
Therefore, ID is a Genesis version of Creationism.
And yet if Genesis is refuted ID remains untouched. Creation is a specific subset of ID. If ID is refuted then so is Creation. If Creation is true then so is ID. And even if ID is true that doesn't mean Creation is true. Not that we expect you to grasp that.Virgil Cain
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
09:22 AM
9
09
22
AM
PDT
Zachriel:
Consider a canonical example, the mammalian middle ear. The three ossicles; malleus, incus, and stapes; are in a precise relationship with one another. Remove one, and the system fails. Could such a system have evolved from a simpler system?
1- That isn't the question 2- No one can demonstrate such a thing- not speculate, actually demonstrateVirgil Cain
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
09:19 AM
9
09
19
AM
PDT
Carpathian:
To make it clear, are you no longer saying that an alien life-form is the designer of life on Earth?
To be perfectly clear- ID is NOT about the intelligent designer(s).
What you have constantly done is refuse to test your theory.
It is tested every day. Every day someone can possibly demonstrate that natural selection and drift are sufficient. I have told you exactly how ID is tested. Just because you constantly choke on my explanations doesn't mean they don't exist.Virgil Cain
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
09:17 AM
9
09
17
AM
PDT
forexhr: Standard response of proponents of evolution to this type of observation goes something like this: “this is a typical irreducible complexity argument. Consider a canonical example, the mammalian middle ear. The three ossicles; malleus, incus, and stapes; are in a precise relationship with one another. Remove one, and the system fails. Could such a system have evolved from a simpler system?Zachriel
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
09:03 AM
9
09
03
AM
PDT
@Carpathian Darwinism is not "improbable" but it is - impossible - in principle. Here are two of many reasons why: All cellular systems, processes and structures that enable the cell to live, grow and reproduce are temporally constrained by the speed of chemical reaction that can takes place in fractions of a second or minute. Complete series of chemical events that take place in a cell leading to its division and replication that produces two daughter cells generally lasts 12 to 24 hours in mammalian tissue. So, how could a proteins that are carriers of this events evolve over the course of many thousands or million years? Metabolic reactions, DNA replication, responding to stimuli, transporting molecules from one location to another.... all involve series of biochemical reactions that are connected by their intermediates - the products of one reaction are the substrates for subsequent reactions, and so on. So, this is temporally constrained, continuous process that cannot be stoped or freezed in order for evolution to produce some of its component in some random point in the future. If, for example, an enzyme is not present in the metabolic pathway when signaled by cell, resulting product will not be produced, cell will lose the ability to complete its cycle and die. In short, the effect(system component) responsible for the operation of temporarily constrained (12 to 24 hours) dynamical system cannot be caused by a temporarily unconstrained process(evolution). // Now let's take reproductive sytem as second example. If we start from the idea that reproductive system of some organism, e.g. human(tempotal point n) were evolved through a gradual series of tiny steps and that the first self replicating organism(starting point of evolution) did not contain the genetic information needed to make three-dimensional structures and arrangements like penis, testicles, sperm, uterus, ovaries, ovum, etc., then certain things follow as a logical necessity. Evolution is a process that proceeds incrementally, one step at a time. One thing leads to another. This is true for all kinds of evolution. Living things evolve with small changes between generations. If that is true, than three-dimensional structures and arrangements like penis, testicles, sperm, uterus, ovaries, ovum... were also produced by evolution, incrementally, one step at a time. Incrementally means increasing in size, or adding on. If mentioned three-dimensional structures and arrangements of reproductive system were added on through time, then we can easily simulate the state of a system before "adding", by reducing its current state, which means that we decrease the number of its components. So we can take one step back in "adding on" process(tempotal point n-1), or in other words, we can take one step back in "evolution of reproductive system" by removing(eg. by gene knockout) or by destructuring(eg. by gene mutation) one of its core component/subprocess/enzyme. But, we know from empirical science that this action will result in inability of that organism to either - produce germ cell, produce the sperm or egg cell, discharge the semen or releases a mature egg, produce the enzyme for egg wall penetration, unite egg and sperm, etc., etc, etc. Since organism in that state is not able to reproduce, evolution is not able to proceed. Hence, at an earlier stage of hypothetical evolutionary development of reproductive system, "adding on" procces is physically impossible since organism lacks components required for its execution. Now, if we start from the assumption that reproductive system of some organism is a evolutionary superstructure, which means that system is an upward extension of a previously existing and functional reproductive system, then logical necessity of component removal from this superstructure is retention of reproductive function or arrival at some simpler mode of reproduction. But experiments and countless medical examples have showed that is not the case. For this reason, the assumption that human reproductive system is a evolutionary superstructure, is false, it's falsified by direct empirical science. The same is true for organisms that reproduce asexually. For example, most bacteria rely on binary fission for propagation. Before binary fission occurs, the cell must copy its genetic material and segregate these copies to opposite ends of the cell. Then the many types of proteins that comprise the cell division machinery assemble at the future division site. A key component of this machinery is the protein FtsZ. Protein monomers of FtsZ assemble into a ring-like structure at the center of a cell. Other components of the division apparatus then assemble at the FtsZ ring. This machinery is positioned so that division splits the cytoplasm and does not damage DNA in the process. As division occurs, the cytoplasm is cleaved in two, and in many bacteria, new cell wall is synthesized. The systems for order and timing of these processes are also needed. If we reduce core components of the systems that allows the execution of these processes - DNA replication, DNA segregation, division site selection, invagination of the cell envelope and synthesis of new cell wall... - the biological process by which new offspring is produced will be stopped, just like with sexual reproduction. Hence, this processes are not reducible. Standard response of proponents of evolution to this type of observation goes something like this: "this is a typical irreducible complexity argument. Irreducible complexity is debunked, and it does not exist. The reason lies in the fact that every single biological system that is deemed irreducibly complex, does in fact have in nature simpler or more complex forms. That means the said system is not, irreducibly complex". It may not seem obvious at first glance but, from a logical point of view this kind of response is deeply flawed. It rests on the implicit assumption that the existence of different structural solutions for the same function automatically mean that a step by step path from one structural solution to another exists. The best way to understand these is by an example. Imagine if someone told you, that the car engine is not irreducibly complex, because motorcycle engine possess the same function of energy conversion from burning fuel, into useful mechanical motion. Since both engines can convert energy from burning fuel into mechanical motion, the car engine is obviously more complex form of a motorcycle engine . And vice versa, a motorcycle engine is obviously simpler form of car engine. But, what that has to do with the step by step path from one to another? Absolutly nothing. If we start to remove components of the car engine this action won't result in motorcycle engine or some other less complex engine with retained energy conversion function. Component removal will result in nothing but malfunctioned engine. So in reality step by step path from one structural solution to another does not exist. If the car engine were the superstructure, the result of a step by step design process, with retained energy conversion funtction at every step then component removal would not result in malfunctioned engine but in a simpler engine with retained energy conversion funtction. Exactly the same is true for reproductive system. If reproductive system of some organism were evolved through a gradual series of tiny steps, by adding components one step at a time then removal of components would not result in infertility but in some simplest mode of reproduction. Since this is not the case, the assumption that the existence of different modes of reproductions in nature automatically mean that a step by step path from one reproductive system to another exists is nothing but non sequitur logical fallacy.forexhr
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
08:53 AM
8
08
53
AM
PDT
StephenB:
No, you don’t understand. The Creator cannot be a life form at all. It isn’t logically possible. The Creator must be immaterial in order to create matter. If the Creator was already a life form made of matter, then it obviously didn’t create matter. Thus, the Creator of life cannot possibly be a material life form.
I'm glad to see that someone in the ID camp has actually stated his position, a position which most IDists here share. I just wish that Virgil Cain and the rest of the IDists here would be as open. If they did we could actually have a debate that made more sense. ID is about defending the validity of Creationism. Is there a scientific basis for Creationism? There might be, but anyone who tries to hide his reasons for belief in ID will never get there because their own arguments will be necessarily self-censored and thus not convincing. I agree with StephenB that the only entity capable of being a Creator of life, is a god-like one. Therefore, ID is a Genesis version of Creationism.Carpathian
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
08:25 AM
8
08
25
AM
PDT
Virgil Cain:
One step at a time. Right now we are concerned with life on Earth. However, given the findings of “The Privileged Planet”, the earth and solar system were also intelligently designed.
To make it clear, are you no longer saying that an alien life-form is the designer of life on Earth?
Carpathian: Who created life? Virgil Cain: Hopefully we find out when we get to that question. ID is about the DESIGN. I have told you that so many times it is sad that you still don’t understand what that means.
What you have constantly done is refuse to test your theory. The primary argument I hear from IDists is that "Darwinism" is so improbable it can be ruled out. "Darwinists" respond with arguments why "Darwinism" is not only probable but has occurred. However, when told that ID is improbable, the only response is to claim that no response is required. Why? Why is it valid to question the probability of one theory but not the other?Carpathian
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
08:07 AM
8
08
07
AM
PDT
forexhr:
In a nutshell, evolutionists believe that nature is an intelligent agent.
Indeed.Mung
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
07:52 AM
7
07
52
AM
PDT
RDFish to Upright BiPed: I have asked you to explain one, single, specific, objectively empirical thing that ID means by the term “intelligence”, and you can’t do it. -- Intelligence, in our case, is nothing but the ability to create semiotic relationship or in other words, the ability to arrange atoms into a state present in another arrangement of atoms. Let's suppose that you create an idea in your mind about an entity that does not yet have physical existence in your room, for example Eiffel tower model made of clay. Since we are material entities, composed of atoms and molecules we can say that this newly created idea in your mind is a newly created arrangement of atoms(neurons in your brain)(AA_1). After that, you create a plan - scale showing of the Eiffel tower and a list of step-by-step actions to be performed for its modeling. This plan is written on paper and it is detailed representation of your previously created idea. Since we are living in a material world this newly created plan(ink on paper) is also a newly created arrangement of atoms(AA_2). These two arrangements of atoms(idea and plan) exist in a relationship or in other words, one arrangement of atoms contains information about other arrangements of atoms and vise versa. We will call this relationship, "semiotic relationship". Now, you decide to implement plan you created, get a necessary materials, equipment and tools and start modeling your tower. Once modeling process is halfway through completion, you stop. Clay is also a material entity composed of atoms so we can say that this half-created model of Eiffel tower is also arrangement of atoms(AA_3). Now we have these three structurally completely different arrangements of atoms( AA_1, AA_2 and AA_3) but they are all semiotically conected. Semiotic relationship between AA_1 and AA_2 is complete, meaning idea is completely incorporated into plan. We will call this state "semiotic closure". Semiotic relationship between AA_1 or AA_2 and AA_3 is incomplete, since Eiffel tower is half-created. We will call this state of incompleteness "semiotic gap". Question A: are natural processes able to close semiotic gap between AA_1/AA_2 and AA_3? Or in other words: are natural processes able to finish the job you've started, and produce Eiffel tower model made of clay? The answer is obvious: no! Why? Because natural processes heads toward a state of minimum total potential energy(equilibrium) and not toward a state necessary to close "semiotic gaps" between material entities (AA_1, AA_2 and AA_3). Natural processes are determined by four fundamental interactions - gravitational, electromagnetic, strong nuclear, and weak nuclear, and not by semiotic relationship between various physical objects. In short, there is no semiotic causality in nature. That is why nature can't complete modelling proces of half-created Eiffel tower, although nature can, in a random fashion, change the shape of clay made objects, or any other material objects. Question B: is inteligent agent able to close semiotic gap between AA_1/AA_2 and AA_3? Yes. Why? Because he is able to create mental representation of one arrangement of atoms(half-created Eiffel tower or plan made to scale showing the clay model of the Eiffel Tower) and then, by using its cognitive faculties, arrange atoms(clay)according to this mental representation. Now, if people believe in evolution or in abiogenesis they believe that natural processes are able to close "semiotic gaps" and create "semiotic relationships". Or in other words, they believe that natural processes are able to arrange atoms according to information written in another arrangement of atoms(DNA). Not only that, but they also believe that natural processes are able to build complex molecular tools and machines that are necessary to close "semiotic gaps". Believing this is like believing that nature will build you an Eiffel tower model made of clay because you created arrangement of atoms called - plan or idea. Believing this is like believing, given enough time, nature will build you a house because you wish for a new one and you made a blueprint. In a nutshell, evolutionists believe that nature is an intelligent agent.forexhr
October 10, 2015
October
10
Oct
10
10
2015
03:09 AM
3
03
09
AM
PDT
You missed the part where you were supposed to say what that term “intelligent action” was supposed to mean in the context of ID. But you already knew that; you just can’t do it, and you refuse to admit it.
You’ve asked me that question several times before and I’ve answered it without hesitation. Allow me cut and paste where you’ve asked me that question, then my answer, and then your response. In doing so we can be certain that you know the answer. Then I’d like to return to the question you left unanswered from my last post. Again, here is the answer to your question:
RD: I have asked you to explain one, single, specific, objectively empirical thing that ID means by the term “intelligence”, and you can’t do it. UB:Like SETI, the term intelligence is defined by an operational definition that relies on observable criteria. I gave you that operational definition in previous conversations. I gave it to you again upthread on September 30th, and again in the very post you are responding to now. In each instance, you have chosen not to engage that definition. Here it is again from #148: Whereas the operational definition for identifying intelligent action from an extra-terrestrial source is “the capacity to send a narrow-band radio signal detectable from earth”, the operational definition for identifying intelligent action at the origin of life is “the capacity to encode memory using spatially-oriented representations” (i.e. representations whose arrangements are independent of the minimum total potential energy state of their medium). You have now returned to this thread twice without responding to my post. Do you need additional time to formulate a response? RD: So fine, whatever caused the origin of life was able to encode memory using “spatially-oriented representations”. I agree arguendo
With that, I’d like to ask you to respond to the unanswered question from my last post: ” We use observable evidence to test for the presence of intelligent action at the origin of life on earth. The test is spectacularly positive on multiple fronts. In what specific ways do your beliefs invalidate that test?” I don’t know if you’re reluctant to answer this question or if you just don’t understand it. In any event, I think you should answer it because it’s critical to your argument. You’ve made it clear, from your perspective, that using this operational definition is invalid and meaningless if it does not also clarify a list of properties (problem solving, the capacity to learn, adaptability to an environment, etc) regarding the intelligence being inferred by the evidence. That evidence is substantial and unambiguous, which you’ve already accepted arguendo. My question is what is it you believe empirically invalidates that evidence? Living cells are heterogeneous entities that require discrete parts in order to function. To whatever extent information is required to organize those things, the system must necessarily be able to organize the capacity to translate the information. For instance, spatially-oriented representations play a critical role in enabling the system to record the type and quantity of information that it needs to describe itself in memory. Do you have something that makes this unnecessary? Those representations are also required to be read in the proper orientation in order to function. Do you have anything that alters this fact? If not, then in exactly what way does not knowing these other properties of the intelligence invalidate the evidence of that intelligence? It doesn’t. And if it doesn’t invalidate that evidence, then one wonders why you’re trampling on the methodology by asking an operational definition – which is specifically put in place to limit the test to observable criteria – to describe for you unobservable criteria? But you’ve already told us why you do it. You don’t want the wrong folks to “co-opt the imprimatur of science” to support their beliefs, right. Do you see the disconnect? You hold down the fort by ignoring methodology and asking for unobservable evidence, while you pretend to defend science. The point is that your argument is flawed. And you are going to have to care about that if you’re ever going to stop making it.Upright BiPed
October 9, 2015
October
10
Oct
9
09
2015
10:01 PM
10
10
01
PM
PDT
RDFish provides 5 arguments for the mind's dependency on the brain: 1) Neural events predict behavior Refuted by V.J.Torley and A.Mele. 2) Altering neural events alters behavior and experience We experience the physical realm through the brain/body. A kick in the butt alters behavior and experience. Yes, we are sensitive beings. So what? 3) Altering experience alters neural events What is the argument? 4) Reasoning requires information processing, which require complex physical states. Without a complex physical state machine (like a brain – the most complex physical mechanism known) reasoning could not proceed Sorry, but this is incoherrent, I simply cannot envision a constructive role for non-rational physical processes wrt to reasoning; see the Argument From Reason. 5) Even dualist neurosurgeons believe that it is undeniable that imagination requires brain function, along with memory. What kind of imagination? What kind of memory? And how does it work?Box
October 9, 2015
October
10
Oct
9
09
2015
06:33 PM
6
06
33
PM
PDT
RDFish: Egnor is completely confused, of course, but if you read him carefully what he is saying is that some representations can be stored in the brain, and other representations (for some wacky reason) cannot.
What Egnor is saying is that a representation of a face of a family member might be digitally storable in the brain. However one needs something that can make a whole of it — to put it back together and make sense of it. However, Egnor argues, you cannot — in principle — digitize concepts like mercy, justice, humility, imaginary numbers or logical and mathematical concepts — Egnor’s examples. If I understand Egnor correctly, his argument is that many mental things are irreducible wholes that cannot be reduced to parts and stored up, because as soon as you chop them up they no longer make sense.
RDFish: You can try and parse Egnor, and other websites, and everything else in the world as artfully as you wish, but you are not going to overcome the gigantic mountain of evidence that shows brain function is necessary to mental function. This mountain of evidence is so huge that Egnor – a dualist neurosurgeon – is forced to admit that truth of the matter: It is undeniable that brain function is necessary to mental function, including memory, perception, and imagination.
Some mental functions, in the context of this temporary earthly existence , I have no problem with that view. Without a functional body I can no longer interact with the world — coma. As far as any outsider can tell I will come across as lacking any mental function. However, they cannot be certain.
RDFish: So when your brain is starved for oxygen, or drugged, and you are becoming more and more delirious, tired, confused, half-awake, and you finally succumb and fall into a state of dreamless unconsciousness, at that point you…. suddenly become conscious again, floating around the world perhaps, clear-headed? Is that what you think? And you think that is a scientifically supported position?
Yes. And yes. I’m absolutely sure of it.
RDFish: And when you regain consciousness (that is what doctors call it), you really aren’t regaining consciousness at all, because you were never unconscious in the first place? Do you actually believe this?
When I reenter my body I may have no memories about the previous time interval. That can mean two things: 1) I was unconscious during that period. 2) I was conscious, but I don’t remember it. Why is that so hard to accept?Box
October 9, 2015
October
10
Oct
9
09
2015
04:51 PM
4
04
51
PM
PDT
RDFish>
That’s just another lie – I’ve answered this each time. A murder is an act by a human being, so by definition is not a natural cause. Getting hit by a meteor is not an act of a human being, so it is a natural cause.
I am sorry, but you are the one who is lying. I asked you if a murderer is a different kind of cause than an accidental death. For some reason, you are afraid to answer the question.
I understand that is your religious dogma, but we’re talking about empirical science here right?
No, you don't understand. The Creator cannot be a life form at all. It isn't logically possible. The Creator must be immaterial in order to create matter. If the Creator was already a life form made of matter, then it obviously didn't create matter. Thus, the Creator of life cannot possibly be a material life form.
The only known source of CSI as we see in living organisms is intelligent agency.
Check.
The only known intelligent agents are living organisms with high levels of CSI.
Check
Now, I accept both of these statements as valid scientific observations. Taken together, they allow us to conclude that whatever the cause of life was, it is not something we currently know of.
Who said anything different? That is precisely what I just explained to you. The cause of life is not something we currently know of. It must be an intelligent agent that is not a complex life form. You are refuted again.
You rely on the first observation because it matches your prior religious convictions, but you ignore or deny the second observation because it violates your prior religious convictions.
I haven't said a thing about religion. All my arguments are based on science and reason. Oh yes, I almost forgot. Do you understand your error concerning the sun, water, and Northern Lights as observable patterns of arranged matter. You have been dodging that issue for days. The unanswered challenges are piling up.StephenB
October 9, 2015
October
10
Oct
9
09
2015
04:50 PM
4
04
50
PM
PDT
Hi Box,
After all what exactly? I’m still waiting for evidence for your position. So far nothing of importance has been forthcoming.
1) Neural events predict behavior 2) Altering neural events alters behavior and experience 3) Altering experience alters neural events 4) Reasoning requires information processing, which require complex physical states. Without a complex physical state machine (like a brain - the most complex physical mechanism known) reasoning could not proceed 5) Even dualist neurosurgeons believe that it is undeniable that imagination requires brain function, along with memory. If this evidence is unimportant, it just shows what I've said all along: Religious beliefs are completely impervious to evidence. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
October 9, 2015
October
10
Oct
9
09
2015
04:17 PM
4
04
17
PM
PDT
Hi Upright BiPed,
We use observable evidence to test for the presence of intelligent action at the origin of life on earth.
I missed nothing. You missed the part where you were supposed to say what that term "intelligent action" was supposed to mean in the context of ID. But you already knew that; you just can't do it, and you refuse to admit it. I'm done asking you what you mean because you refuse to say. You have a theory - a scientific explanation for the origin of life!! But you won't say what it is :-) Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
October 9, 2015
October
10
Oct
9
09
2015
04:01 PM
4
04
01
PM
PDT
Hi Box,
It is not required for Egnor to expressly deny the possibility of the concept that representations of memories can be stored in the brain. The point is that Egnor argues against the concept, while you falsely claimed that he endorsed it. This is what you said: RDFish: He [Egnor] says the representation is stored in the brain (…) And this is simply not true. Egnor argues against that concept. He finds it “unintelligible”, a “conceptual morass” and calls for “conceptual hygiene”
You are just chasing your tail here. Egnor is completely confused, of course, but if you read him carefully what he is saying is that some representations can be stored in the brain, and other representations (for some wacky reason) cannot. You can try and parse Egnor, and other websites, and everything else in the world as artfully as you wish, but you are not going to overcome the gigantic mountain of evidence that shows brain function is necessary to mental function. This mountain of evidence is so huge that Egnor - a dualist neurosurgeon - is forced to admit that truth of the matter: It is undeniable that brain function is necessary to mental function, including memory, perception, and imagination.
Here you go again with the misrepresentation. Egnor said: “It is undeniable that brain processes are necessary for some mental functions — perception, memory, imagination and the like.” For no reason whatsoever you assume that by “the like” Egnor means “personality” and “individual consciousness”.
Grasping at straws, so sad. Obviously brain changes affect personality, and obviously individual concsiousness depends on brain function. But let's not quibble - if only for memory, perception, and imagination, what Egnor explicitly said - brain function is necessary for mental function.
And by the way, I’m in no way committed to Egnor’s opinion. He is not my hero.
Right. Even the dualist neurosurgeon that you have been touting as providing knock-down arguments against my position... well now that you actually read him even he disagrees with you, so you choose to dump him now. Got it. Now: Did you read what I wrote below? Did Ignore it? Turn your head away because you just don't want to think about it? Well, here it is again:
RDF: If you get knocked unconscious, a medical doctor will say you are “unconscious”. That is the word they will use. You are arguing that even when someone has been declared unconscious they are always conscious anyway. So when your brain is starved for oxygen, or drugged, and you are becoming more and more delirious, tired, confused, half-awake, and you finally succumb and fall into a state of dreamless unconsciousness, at that point you…. suddenly become conscious again, floating around the world perhaps, clear-headed? Is that what you think? And you think that is a scientifically supported position? And when you regain consciousness (that is what doctors call it), you really aren’t regaining consciousness at all, because you were never unconscious in the first place? Do you actually believe this?
Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
October 9, 2015
October
10
Oct
9
09
2015
03:59 PM
3
03
59
PM
PDT
RDFish: Seriously? After all this, you still won’t agree that brain function is necesary for mental function? What is it like to cling to these beliefs in the face of so much contradictory evidence, where even your own experts disagree with you?
After all what exactly? I’m still waiting for evidence for your position. So far nothing of importance has been forthcoming. Egnor and I agree on the brain being necessary for external perception. According to Egnor there is also some obscure role for the brain wrt memory and imagination maybe. Obviously this is correlated with the temporal physical realm. Egnor and I don’t disagree on much, so it seems.
RDFish: If you’d like to talk about free will we can do that, but not until you admit that the science is very strong that says mental function depends upon brain function. If you won’t agree with that, there really is just nothing to discuss.
How can I admit to something that is conceptually incoherent and for which there is no evidence? I can give you external perception, but not much beyond that.
RDFish:
Box: if the brain is ”the initiator” of each of my finger movements at the keyboard, does that mean that the brain is fully responsible for the entire post?
STOP IT. I went through this entire thread and collected all the times I have said that brains are not necessarily sufficient for mental function. Over and over and over again I’ve said it.
You also said: “All of that is perfectly true of course – I agree with all of it” and you were talking about this: “The brain is the most complex part of the human body. This three-pound organ is the seat of intelligence, interpreter of the senses, initiator of body movement, and controller of behavior.”
RDFish:
Box: Will you now answer my questions, or admit that you made a mistake underwriting the content of that website?
Oh good grief! Instead of reading what I’ve written, over and over and over and over again, you try and twist around somebody else’s website and pretend that it says something that it doesn’t and that I agree with it.
Well, you are the one who said “all of that is perfectly true of course – I agree with all of it”. That’s an unequivocal endorsement. And I’m not pretending it says something that it doesn’t; I’m just asking you what it means.
RDFish: Nothing that website said, as far as I can see, stated that we have scientific knowledge that currently understood brain function is sufficient for all mental phenomena.
Okay, then I have some questions for you: When one states that the brain is ”the initiator” of body movement does that mean that the brain initiates every movement of my fingers and therefore is (in effect) typing this post? And if the brain is ”the initiator” of each of my finger movements at the keyboard, does that mean that the brain is fully responsible for the entire post? Also, when one states that the brain is “the controller” of behavior does that mean that the brain fully controls my behavior — including my “thinking behavior”? - -
RDFish: Ok, so you are denying that anyone ever loses concsiousness. Check.
No, I’m saying that we have no way of knowing. It’s a well-known fact of life.
RDFish: Honestly, you have never experience a loss of consciousness? Amazing.
Not remembering that I was conscious during a certain time interval is all I have to offer. And even that, as I have pointed out, is inconclusive. Maybe I don’t remember my experiences. Got it now? A person can be certain that she/he is conscious, but not that she/he is unconscious.
RDFish: If you get knocked unconscious, a medical doctor will say you are “unconscious”.
Yes, but there is simply no way for him to be certain. Awareness is a first-person experience and that’s a fact.Box
October 9, 2015
October
10
Oct
9
09
2015
03:38 PM
3
03
38
PM
PDT
Hi StephenB,
A natural cause is not nature acting as a cause? That’s crazy.
:-) A physical cause that is natural is not the same thing as nature acting as a cause. I know you understand this, you're just so out of arguments that you're grasping at straws and being ridiculous. "Natural" is a category, not a physical thing. Can categories make canyons? (Hint: no, they can't)
Are water erosion and volcanic eruptions acts of nature?
Phrases like “acts of nature” and “mother nature” are metaphorical idioms, because “nature” is not a person. Nature is not a mother, nor does nature act. Water causes erosion, and volcanos cause lava flows. Nature is just an abstract concept, and it doesn’t make sense to say “nature” causes anything. Is "mother nature" a female animal who has given birth? No, it's not - it's just a metaphorical idiom. Stop humiliating yourself.
You forgot to explain that to the medical community and the criminal justice system, both of which speak of death by natural causes.
I've explained this too many times. "Natural causes" is nothing but a category of all causes that are not associated with human action. You are now humiliating yourself, and I'm done correcting you.
Just answer my simple question: Is a murderer a different kind of cause than an accidental death? You have been dodging it for days.
That's just another lie - I've answered this each time. A murder is an act by a human being, so by definition is not a natural cause. Getting hit by a meteor is not an act of a human being, so it is a natural cause. Even a child can understand this. Why can't you? Humans are physical entities that cause events. Meteors are physical entities that cause events. "Nature" is an abstract category - not a physical entity - and so it makes no sense to say "nature" causes something.
That’s easy to refute. The Creator is not a life form. The Creator created life forms.
I understand that is your religious dogma, but we're talking about empirical science here right? In science, we make inferences based on our experience. Let me give you an example (where "intelligence" means "able to learn, solve novel problems, and experience conscious awareness"): The only known source of CSI as we see in living organisms is intelligent agency. This is cited as a key observation in "ID Theory". See how it refers to our experience-based knowledge? That is science (at least when used with a specific definition of "intelligence", such as the one I've provided)! Here's another example: The only known intelligent agents are living organisms with high levels of CSI. Equally valid, equally true, equally scientific. Now, I accept both of these statements as valid scientific observations. Taken together, they allow us to conclude that whatever the cause of life was, it is not something we currently know of. You rely on the first observation because it matches your prior religious convictions, but you ignore or deny the second observation because it violates your prior religious convictions. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
October 9, 2015
October
10
Oct
9
09
2015
03:34 PM
3
03
34
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6 16

Leave a Reply