Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

New science organization offers to set science free from materialism

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After TED Talks removed Rupert Sheldrake’s talk on—you guessed it—the problems with materialism in science.

Set Science Free:

A global community of scientists, academics, and concerned citizens united in the effort to free science and education from the outdated dogma of philosophical materialism

After its successful 2014 TED.com Campaign, Set Science Free (SSF) is now spearheading a related campaign to support post-materialist consciousness studies in university programs. The purpose of the TED Campaign was to demonstrate to TED that there is support among the scientific and academic community to challenge dogmatic materialistic belief systems. Our goal was also to challenge TED to live up to its own mission statement.

We discovered in our conversation with Chris Anderson, curator of TED, that he alone made the decision to pull Rupert Sheldrake’s controversial TED talk (about the limits of materialistic science) based on an “informal discussion” with a few unnamed scientists and journalists. In short, belief-laden interests as well as willful ignorance of valid post-materialistic science guided TED’s actions. To be fair, Mr. Anderson’s decision reflects a common and well known academic and institutional bias in support of philosophical materialism. With that said, willful ignorance and institutional bias do not constitute any semblance of a plan of action for the next generation of scientists. The very spirit of science itself is at stake when solid research (from Sheldrake and a multitude of others) is dismissed sight unseen, solely based on the subject matter and not on the content or merits of the actual research. The education system continues to regurgitate tired and outdated dogmas against post-materialist consciousness studies. The educational system must change to combat this hindrance to scientific progress.

First, materialist studies of consciousness have gone nowhere—except nice venues for conferences—for decades. A failure that is all the odder because great physicists have so often failed to endorse the nonsense anyway.

More, origin of life studies are a Potemkin village in science because life differs from non-life principally in the vast amount of information it embodies, not in a lucky lightning strike somewhere. A lightning strike will not do that.

In any event, once science became committed to materialism (some of us would have said naturalism), any materialist/naturalist explanation became more “scientific” by virtue of its origin than any explanation that took account of facts that didn’t fit that view.

That is how evolutionary psychology, for example, came to be a science, despite the clown shoes, hat, and makeup.

And why compassion, philanthropy, and self-sacrifice are supposed to be some kind of a problem, along with free will. Who said we had to study these phenomena as problems, instead of just facts?

The materialists did. That’s who. And if they can’t come up with a coherent explanation, no one else is allowed to.

Increasing numbers of thinkers from a variety of perspectives are just checking out, one guesses.

Goals of Science Set Free?:

While many scientists and academics worldwide understand and regularly experience the challenges of materialist politics firsthand, they are justifiably engaged with research and professorial duties, and thus do not have the time to act as educational activists. This is where Set Science Free aims to insert itself—in the role of aid and advocate. Our new campaign can be defined as tersely thus:

Set Science Free is currently working with any professor or student organization that has an interest in starting a Consciousness Studies program at their respective university.

Won’t be easy keeping out the legacy science fascists and the new age crackpots at the same time.

But heck, why shouldn’t they try? Has anything else worked?

Will try to keep you posted.

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Comments
VS, I suggest to you that the supernatural and the Deity are not necessarily equal. Second, seeking to know God is a project in knowledge and is not subject to any special concerns above and beyond ordinary warrant of knowledge, especially as regards knowledge of persons. Do you trouble yourself, staying up nights worrying about false positives in your general knowledge base or knowledge of science? I doubt it. We simply accept that knowledge in general is what is well warranted and credibly true, having regard to what degree of warrant is feasible. (Then, where we find an error, we fix it. No big deal.) And, I rather doubt that, say, you trouble yourself greatly over whether your knowledge of your mom is a false positive. Nor, are you overly worried about operational testable definitions. In truth, whether or not you are inclined to acknowledge it, millions have come to meet and be transformed for the good by God, across the world and down the long reach of time. That we are all labouring under grand delusion is a highly dubious suggestion. Finally, you seem to be caught up in scientism, seeking SCIENTIFIC proof of God's existence and actions. Science does not delimit knowledge. Supernatural actions and events can be recognised by their character, e,g, the flying priest seen by thousands across decades, including fairly hostile scrutiny and with abundant lifetime record would count. Save, if there is an agenda of selective hyperskepticism. In which case the problem is not really the types and quality of evidence and argument, but an undue resistance to what would lead where one does not wish to go. Which, we all must be careful to examine ourselves for. And, I suspect here will be a good point of departure for pivotal case no 1, Jesus of Nazareth. KFkairosfocus
February 22, 2015
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AS @ 53: If one is going to define the "supernatural" as "that which is not real", then one has created a useless definitional tautology. Saying then that the supernatural is immune to scientific investigation is like saying that to be a bachelor, one cannot be married. Well, how profound. Perhaps what is "supernatural" (non-material) is real but in a different way than phenomena we consider to be "material", and is open to a different kind of scientific investigation than that which we normally apply to "matter". In any event, defining the non-material, or the supernatural, as "imaginary" or "unreal" is nothing more than a means for a self-serving narrative to protect itself.William J Murray
February 22, 2015
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velikovskys responds to my statement that his definition of "supernatural" is idiosyncratic with:
It seems mainstream.whole cosmological argument is based on the need for a non contingent cause,therefore God.
Are you unaware that "supernatural" and "god" are not synonymous? Do you think that the cosmological argument is a "mainstream" conceptualization of what "supernatural" means? Are ghosts, mediumship and psychic phenomena intractably linked to the cosmological argument? If it is a mainstreawm definition, where did you find it?
Now who is using idiosyncratic definitions? Scientific results are conditional on evidence, what we can be sure of is that our knowledge is finite, new evidence and theories take the place of old.
This isn't an answer to my question. It's a diversion from it by quibbling over what the term "prove" means. Are you going to claim that scientists do not use the term "prove" in their papers or discussions? If not, then I suggest you assume I mean "prove" in the same sense that they mean it. I asked:
why do you think you cannot show a theory involving something “supernatural” as part of the explanation to be false?
velikovskys responded:
Because you can’t show it is true,either.
Apparently meaning that you cannot scientifically show a "supernatural" cause to be true (I'll set aside for now whether or not science deals with "truths") or false, thus indicating that the "supernatural" is immune from scientific investigation. Now, however, velikovskys appears to have changed his mind. When I asked:
why does the state of being “supernatural” render something immune from scientific investigation?
He backtracks and says:
It is not,
One wonders how, if something cannot be shown to be true or false, it not immune to scientific investigation? However, he seems to have changed his mind. Great! Then we both agree there is no logical reason why the "supernatural" cannot be investigated by science, nor any logical reason why scientific conclusions cannot be reached about supernatural phenomena.
The problem is the ability to discern the difference between an unknown natural cause and an unknown supernatural cause. Any suggestions how to detect the difference?
Since I don't agree with your definition of the term "supernatural", there is no need for me to offer any such suggestion. For over 100 years what has been considered by the mainstream to be the "supernatural" has been under scientific investigation, beginning with William Crookes and Nobel Prize winner Charles Richet. It goes on today in the work of scientists from many disciplines. I suggest the way forward in science is to treat unknown causes as just that - unknown causes, without imprisoning them into ideological constraints that may or many not be true via the baggage-laden terms "natural", "supernatural", "materialist" or "non-materialist".William J Murray
February 22, 2015
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Wjm: Please note this appears to be an entirely idiosyncratic definition of the term. I can’t find anywhere where “supernatural” is so defined. That’s fine, but I’m just pointing it out to onlookers for future reference. It seems mainstream.whole cosmological argument is based on the need for a non contingent cause,therefore God. Why would a non-contingent cause be immune to being proved as the cause of something and immune to falsifiability? Science can only show likelihood not proof. Surely velikovskys understands how the term “proved” is used in science – as an indication that evidence gathered has well supported a scientific proposition. I can only conclude he is avoiding my question. Now who is using idiosyncratic definitions? Scientific results are conditional on evidence, what we can be sure of is that our knowledge is finite, new evidence and theories take the place of old. The question for both of them is: why does the state of being “supernatural” render something immune from scientific investigation? It is not,as long as it has entailments that we can test or measure or observe. The problem is the ability to discern the difference between an unknown natural cause and an unknown supernatural cause. Any suggestions how to detect the difference? This would require a definition (unless both agree to velikovskys’ idiosyncratic definition “a non-contingent cause”) and an explanation. Actually it is exactly the issue, we have no idea what a non contingent , a non entailed, cause is doing or not doing. Actually the answer is simple, the non contingent cause just needs to provide the scientific method to detect its presence. Or William you can provide the means to detect the presence or non presence of the supernatural, also how to determine false positives and lastly an operational testable definition. Or simpler still, how did you personally prove scientifically the existence of God and detect supernatural actions?velikovskys
February 22, 2015
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Much of the focus in the mind-brain discussion pertains to the obvious absurdity of rational belief associated with materialism. I wanted to offer another way of looking at the absurdity of materialism related to the mind-brain problem that is quantitative. One way of looking at the mind-body problem is to construct an analogy between brain-mind on the one hand and genes-proteins on the other and then to examine these in light of William Dembski's searching through large spaces, Stephen Meyer's observation about the DNA molecular code and Michael Behe's concept of irreducible complexity. The brain components--according to materialism--must somehow give rise to mental states in much the same way genes give rise to proteins, tissues, cells, organs and so on. Mental states could be abstract thoughts, artistic imaginings, imagery in dream sequences, etc. Just as Meyer notes that there is no necessary casual relationship between the concatenated amino acids in the DNA molecule that give rise to proteins, so it is with the putative brain components that according to materialism are supposed to give rise to a stream of thoughts because the causation in reductionism is bottom up. There is no necessary causal relationship between the states of the multitude of brain components that would be involved in giving rise to the corresponding sequence mental states. The underlying brain states producing the mental states at each instant in time and throughout a continuous thought stream are irreducibly complex in the sense that the brain components would have to be highly specific because they are highly constrained by the content of the mental events both spatially and temporally. In other words, if materialism were true, then at each instant in time and throughout a period of time, the collection of brain components supposedly giving rise to a perception or imagery, would have to be precisely what they are in order for a coherent, correlated thought or image to be rendered in one's mind. A rough calculation could be carried out by assessing the entire space of possible brain states for the components involved and contrasted that with the diminishingly small set of arrangements of these components that would satisfy the mental phenomenon. If the brain components were the firing of neuron synapses (binary on/off) and there were, say 10 million synapses involved over a 10 second period of thought, then the calculation could be given as: 2^10 million * (the number of distinct brain states within that 10 second period). Obviously searching through a space this large using bottom up causation dictated by materialistic reductionism would be futile and clearly disproves materialism given what we now know. Rather a top-down, creative causation must be involved especially in light of the fact that so many of our thoughts seem to be the result of final causation rather than contingent causation in that they are capable of reflecting the truth about reality, e.g. Einstein's series of thought streams that eventuated in the theory of Relativity.nkendall
February 22, 2015
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kf, I don't mind that they use an idiosyncratic definition of the term "supernatural", as long as they state it and explain why "the supernatural" is incapable of being scientifically investigated. Without a definition and an explanation, one can only conclude they are are simply reacting in defense of their materialist ideology with diversionary semantics and denialism. In any normal sense of the term, the "supernatural" is as open to scientific investigation as anything else. Scientists have been investigating the "supernatural" for over a century, at least since the time physicist William Crookes formally investigated psychic/mediumship phenomena and, along with Nobel Prize winner Charles Richet at the time, concluded that certain such "supernatural" phenomena were definitely real.William J Murray
February 22, 2015
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WJM: AmHD may help jog a few minds:
su·per·nat·u·ral (so?o?p?r-n?ch??r-?l) adj. 1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world. 2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces. 3. Of or relating to a deity. 4. Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous. 5. Of or relating to the miraculous. n. That which is supernatural. su?per·nat?u·ral·ly adv. su?per·nat?u·ral·ness n. ++++++++++ nat·u·ral (n?ch??r-?l, n?ch?r?l) adj. 1. Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl. 2. Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment. 3. Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: a natural death. 4. a. Not acquired; inherent: Love of power is natural to some people. b. Having a particular character by nature: a natural leader. c. Biology Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex. 5. Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions. See Synonyms at naive. 6. Not altered, treated, or disguised: natural coloring; natural produce. 7. Faithfully representing nature or life. 8. Expected and accepted: "In Willie's mind marriage remained the natural and logical sequence to love" (Duff Cooper). 9. Established by moral certainty or conviction: natural rights. 10. Being in a state regarded as primitive, uncivilized, or unregenerate. 11. a. Related genetically: the natural parents of the child. b. Born to parents who have never been married to each other: the natural son of the king. 12. Mathematics Of or relating to positive integers, sometimes including zero. 13. Music a. Not sharped or flatted. b. Having no sharps or flats. n. 1. a. One having all the qualifications necessary for success: You are a natural for this job. b. One suited by nature for a certain purpose or function: She is a natural at mathematics. 2. Music a. The sign (?) placed before a note to cancel a preceding sharp or flat. b. A note so affected. 3. A yellowish gray to pale orange yellow. 4. Games A combination in certain card and dice games that wins immediately. 5. An Afro hairstyle.
This has but little to do with the point that intelligently directed configuration will often leave empirically observable, reliable traces such as FSCO/I or fine tuned components in an integrated whole. Whether the designer behind the design is within or beyond the observed cosmos is a secondary matter to the question that is properly at main stake, can such design be detected on signs. Which, on very good warrant, can be answered yes. KF PS: And the significance of FSCO/I can be tested empirically and potentially falsified should there be a case where, credibly per observation, it is produced by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. This has been on the table for literally years, but studiously ignored by those with ideological talking points to make over imagined contrasts between natural and supernatural vs what ID actually studies natural (blind chance and mechanical necessity) vs ART-ificial (design)kairosfocus
February 22, 2015
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It seems that CHartsil and velikovskys are avoiding my question. CHartsil originally asserted:
You can’t show that a supernatural explanation is specifically false. You can only evidence non-supernatural explanations.
I asked CHartsil:
What do you mean by the term “supernatural”, and why do you think you cannot show a theory involving something “supernatural” as part of the explanation to be false?"
CHartsil's response:
William, because falsifiability is necessary. Otherwise you could say any magical account of the origin of existence is just as valid as any other.
Not only did he fail to explain his term "supernatural" as asked, but please note that the response is a non-sequitur. Also note that the original issue was non-materialism; CHartsil replaced that term with "supernatural" and now "magic". Please answer my questions, CHartsil. velikovskys attempted to define "supernatural":
A non contingent cause.
Please note this appears to be an entirely idiosyncratic definition of the term. I can't find anywhere where "supernatural" is so defined. That's fine, but I'm just pointing it out to onlookers for future reference. My next question was:
why do you think you cannot show a theory involving something “supernatural” as part of the explanation to be false?
velikovskys responded:
Because you can’t show it is true,either.
I followed up with this question:
Why would a non-contingent cause be immune to being proved as the cause of something and immune to falsifiability?
To which he offers the non-response:
Science can only show likelihood not proof.
Surely velikovskys understands how the term "proved" is used in science - as an indication that evidence gathered has well supported a scientific proposition. I can only conclude he is avoiding my question. The question for both of them is: why does the state of being "supernatural" render something immune from scientific investigation? This would require a definition (unless both agree to velikovskys' idiosyncratic definition "a non-contingent cause") and an explanation.William J Murray
February 22, 2015
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CH & VS: The relevant falsifiability point for design theory lies in what you have been led not to see, as you have obviously swallowed the NCSE talking point about natural vs supernatural cause, compounded by some mis-perceptions about what God could or would do. The design context of thought from Plato's day to now has contrasted the natural (blind chance and/or mechanical necessity) with the ART-ificial, i.e. intelligently directed configuration, AKA design. Without regard to debates on agents being within or beyond the observed cosmos, it has looked at a key empirical issue: can we find empirical traces that help us detect if design was involved? To this, one answer has been functionally specific complex wiring diagram nodes-arcs organisation and associated information. In a simple case observe text S-T-R-I-N-G-S, beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of info capacity. It is inductively generalised and backed up on a solar system or cosmos scale blind needle in haystack search analysis, that such should reliably come from design. This can in principle be readily tested and even falsified empirically. Just provide reliable observation of such FSCO/I coming about by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. As a simple case try random text generation . . . so far up to 20 - 24 ASCII characters worth of coherent English, or a factor of about 1 in 10^100 short of the low end threshold scale of config space. This has of course been pointed out over and over and over again, but the indoctrination not to see this seems to close minds from recognising it. Let's just say, over the years in and around UD some dozens of attempts were made all failed. Evo algors turn out to feed off active info and depend on intelligently fine tuned parameters acting within islands of function. And the like. That seems to be why we now tend to see really strange rhetorical gambits. So, nope the notion that the design inference is not open to empirical test and potential falsification, is a misrepresentation. Just, it keeps passing such tests with flying colours. Indeed every post in this thread is another case in point on the source of FSCO/I, design. KFkairosfocus
February 21, 2015
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CH, Nope -- we are exposing the fatal flaw that falsifies evolutionary materialism. Precisely because mindedness and responsible freedom do not play out as evolutionary materialist models would imply, the models are falsified. This is the key point underscored by J B S Haldane:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
But thanks for at least facing the major problem with evolutionary materialism (even though you seemed to think it is a problem we faced . . . ). That's a first step to a better understanding. If you want an idea of the road I (I don't speak for Box on this) go down, start with the Smith two-tier controller model, with the brain-cns as front-end I/O controller and data store. KFkairosfocus
February 21, 2015
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Chartsil: William, because falsifiability is necessary. Otherwise you could say any magical account of the origin of existence is just as valid as any other. Falsifiability is important because it means the explanation has entailments, gravity bending spacetime for instance.velikovskys
February 21, 2015
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Wjm: Why would a non-contingent cause be immune to being proved as the cause of something and immune to falsifiability? Science can only show likelihood not proof.velikovskys
February 21, 2015
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Box, Kairos, you're using your brain to say that your brain is unreliable if god doesn't exist. You're then using you brain to say god exists. It's self defeating. William, because falsifiability is necessary. Otherwise you could say any magical account of the origin of existence is just as valid as any other.CHartsil
February 21, 2015
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Velikovskys said:
A non contingent cause.
Why would a non-contingent cause be immune to being proved as the cause of something and immune to falsifiability?William J Murray
February 21, 2015
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Wjm: What do you mean by the term “supernatural”, A non contingent cause. why do you think you cannot show a theory involving something “supernatural” as part of the explanation to be false? Because you can't show it is true,either.velikovskys
February 21, 2015
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Kairosfocus #40,
KF: The key point, though is as already noted: physical causal closure — the phenomena that play out across time, without residue, are in principle deducible or at least explainable up to various random statistical distributions and/or mechanical laws, from prior physical states. Such physical causal closure, clearly, implicitly discounts or even dismisses the causal effect of concept formation and reasoning then responsibly deciding, in favour of specifically physical interactions in the brain-body control loop; indeed, some mock the idea of — in their view — an “obviously” imaginary “ghost” in the meat-machine.
Physical causal closure is indeed the key point wrt naturalism/materialism/physicalism. No matter what comes next (emergentism, evolution or whatever): blind physical interactions are in the driving seat.
KF: Reppert: . . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . But if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and so we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
Reppert shows us that there is no bridge between mental 'laws' (overview, meaning, logic) and physical laws. They are not in the same realm.
KF: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the “thoughts” we have, (iii) the conceptualised beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt based on such and (v) the “conclusions” and “choices” (a.k.a. “decisions”) we reach — without residue — must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to “mere” ill-defined abstractions such as: purpose or truth, or even logical validity.
Exactly!Box
February 21, 2015
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CH (attn Box): Here is, in a 101 outline, the inherent self-referential incoherence in a priori evolutionary materialism: >> 13 --> Some materialists . . . suggest that mind is more or less a delusion. For instance, Sir Francis Crick is on record, in his 1994 The Astonishing Hypothesis: . . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. 14 --> Philip Johnson has replied that Sir Francis should have therefore been willing to preface his works thusly: "I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules." Johnson then acidly commented: “[[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” [[Reason in the Balance, 1995.] 15 --> In short, it is at least arguable that self-referential absurdity is the dagger pointing to the heart of evolutionary materialistic models of mind and its origin . . . . This issue can be addressed at a more sophisticated level [[cf. Hasker in The Emergent Self (Cornell University Press, 2001), from p 64 on, e.g. here as well as Reppert here and Plantinga here (briefer) & here (noting updates in the 2011 book, The Nature of Nature)], but without losing its general force, it can also be drawn out a bit in a fairly simple way: a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances. (This is physicalism. This view covers both the forms where (a) the mind and the brain are seen as one and the same thing, and those where (b) somehow mind emerges from and/or "supervenes" on brain, perhaps as a result of sophisticated and complex software looping. The key point, though is as already noted: physical causal closure -- the phenomena that play out across time, without residue, are in principle deducible or at least explainable up to various random statistical distributions and/or mechanical laws, from prior physical states. Such physical causal closure, clearly, implicitly discounts or even dismisses the causal effect of concept formation and reasoning then responsibly deciding, in favour of specifically physical interactions in the brain-body control loop; indeed, some mock the idea of -- in their view -- an "obviously" imaginary "ghost" in the meat-machine. [[There is also some evidence from simulation exercises, that accuracy of even sensory perceptions may lose out to utilitarian but inaccurate ones in an evolutionary competition. "It works" does not warrant the inference to "it is true."] ) c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this meat-machine picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick's claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as "thoughts," "reasoning" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains that (as the Smith Model illustrates) serve as cybernetic controllers for our bodies. d: These underlying driving forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. And, remember, the focal issue to such minds -- notice, this is a conceptual analysis made and believed by the materialists! -- is the physical causal chains in a control loop, not the internalised "mouth-noises" that may somehow sit on them and come along for the ride. (Save, insofar as such "mouth noises" somehow associate with or become embedded as physically instantiated signals or maybe codes in such a loop. [[How signals, languages and codes originate and function in systems in our observation of such origin -- i.e by design -- tends to be pushed to the back-burner and conveniently forgotten. So does the point that a signal or code takes its significance precisely from being an intelligently focused on, observed or chosen and significant alternative from a range of possibilities that then can guide decisive action.]) e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And -- as we saw above -- would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain? f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely cognitive, conceptual error, but delusion. Borderline lunacy, in short. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be a major illustration of the unreliability of our conceptual reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. Reppert brings the underlying point sharply home, in commenting on the "internalised mouth-noise signals riding on the physical cause-effect chain in a cybernetic loop" view: . . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions. [[Emphases added. Also cf. Reppert's summary of Barefoot's argument here.] i: The famous geneticist and evolutionary biologist (as well as Socialist) J. B. S. Haldane made much the same point in a famous 1932 remark: "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)] j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the "thoughts" we have, (iii) the conceptualised beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt based on such and (v) the "conclusions" and "choices" (a.k.a. "decisions") we reach -- without residue -- must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to "mere" ill-defined abstractions such as: purpose or truth, or even logical validity. (NB: The conclusions of such "arguments" may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or "warranted" them. It seems that rationality itself has thus been undermined fatally on evolutionary materialistic premises. Including that of Crick et al. Through, self-reference leading to incoherence and utter inability to provide a cogent explanation of our commonplace, first-person experience of reasoning and rational warrant for beliefs, conclusions and chosen paths of action. Reduction to absurdity and explanatory failure in short.) k: And, if materialists then object: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must immediately note that -- as the fate of Newtonian Dynamics between 1880 and 1930 shows -- empirical support is not equivalent to establishing the truth of a scientific theory. For, at any time, one newly discovered countering fact can in principle overturn the hitherto most reliable of theories. (And as well, we must not lose sight of this: in science, one is relying on the legitimacy of the reasoning process to make the case that scientific evidence provides reasonable albeit provisional warrant for one's beliefs etc. Scientific reasoning is not independent of reasoning.) l: Worse, in the case of origins science theories, we simply were not there to directly observe the facts of the remote past, so origins sciences are even more strongly controlled by assumptions and inferences than are operational scientific theories. So, we contrast the way that direct observations of falling apples and orbiting planets allow us to test our theories of gravity. m: Moreover, as Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin reminds us all in his infamous January 29, 1997 New York Review of Books article, "Billions and billions of demons," it is now notorious that: . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel [[materialistic scientists] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [[And if you have been led to imagine that the immediately following words justify the above, kindly cf. the more complete clip and notes here.] n: Such a priori assumptions of materialism are patently question-begging, mind-closing and fallacious. o: More important, to demonstrate that empirical tests provide empirical support to the materialists' theories would require the use of the very process of reasoning and inference which they have discredited. p: Thus, evolutionary materialism arguably reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, as we have seen: immediately, that must include “Materialism.” q: In the end, it is thus quite hard to escape the conclusion that materialism is based on self-defeating, question-begging logic. r: So, while materialists -- just like the rest of us -- in practice routinely rely on the credibility of reasoning and despite all the confidence they may project, they at best struggle to warrant such a tacitly accepted credibility of mind and of concepts and reasoned out conclusions relative to the core claims of their worldview. (And, sadly: too often, they tend to pointedly ignore or rhetorically brush aside the issue.) . . . >> Stumbled fatally in the starting gates. KFkairosfocus
February 21, 2015
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WJM (attn CH), what we are seeing is the impact of this bit of mind-twisting question-begging by the US National Science Teachers' Association, per Board declaration of July 2000:
The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . [[S]cience, along with its methods, explanations and generalizations, must be the sole focus of instruction in science classes to the exclusion of all non-scientific or pseudoscientific methods, explanations, generalizations and products . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements in the production of scientific knowledge.
We can immediately point out the loaded strawman caricature natural vs supernatural, when since plato the discussion has been on natural vs ART-ificial or designed . . . tracing to intelligently directed configuration. Which can indeed leave detectable empirical traces and is easily subjected to potential empirical falsification. Just, show a credible case where blind chance and mechanical necessity, per observation, produce FSCO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 bits. As you know we have had dozens of attempts in and around UD, all failed. With the typical problem being failure to recognise how active information was intelligently injected or failing to realise that a lot of intelligent design was injected. In addition, there is the hint of problems with scientism by imagining such "science" delimits serious or legitimate knowledge. Of course the self-refutation in that is this is a philosophical or at least an ideological, non-scientific claim. A sounder approach in my view would be to identify an ideal for scientific work:
let us give a "rough working definition" of science as it should be (recognising that we will often fall short): science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive, observational evidence-led pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on: a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical -- real-world, on the ground -- observations and measurements, b: inference to best current -- thus, always provisional -- abductive explanation of the observed facts, c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [[including Einstein's favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments], d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and, e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, "the informed" is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.) As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world. In addition, origins questions are freighted with major consequences for our worldviews, and are focused on matters that are inherently beyond our direct observation. So, since we simply were not here to see the deep past of origins, we are compelled to reconstruct it on more or less plausible models driven by inference to best explanation. This means that in origins investigations, our results and findings are inevitably even more provisional than are those of operational science, where we can directly cross check models against observation. That further means that origins science findings are inherently more prone to controversy and debate than more conventional theories in science.
A glance will suffice to show how this avoids a priori lab coat clad materialist question-begging presented as high-prestige "knowledge." And of course, this is an old debate in and around UD resurfacing as someone has come by who probably does not realise the lurking issues and begged questions. KFkairosfocus
February 21, 2015
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CHartsil said:
Science is necessarily restricted to materialism/methodological naturalism because scientific models have to be falsifiable and subject to constant certain variables. ..... You can’t show that a supernatural explanation is specifically false. You can only evidence non-supernatural explanations.
What do you mean by the term "supernatural", and why do you think you cannot show a theory involving something "supernatural" as part of the explanation to be false?William J Murray
February 21, 2015
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CHartsil,
CHartsil: No, the fact that it’s a strawman is what makes it a strawman.
It's pointless to discuss with the chemicals, called CHartsil, but at times it can be amusing.
CHartsil: Again, it’s not just my case.
What is this chemical process blubbering about?
CHartsil: It’s your case, (...)
Materialism is my case? What?
CHartsil: (...) just believing you were created by god doesn’t make it so.
Where did I state that things work that way?
CHartsil: Really, you’re using what you think is an unreliable brain and sense of reasoning in order to believe in the god you think gives you the ability to reason.
Wait a minute. The chemical process called CHartsil (CPCH) distinguishes between "you" and "brain" - impossible under materialism. This "you" is using "brain" to believe in a God. Also this "you" reflects on this "brain" and holds it to be unreliable. Again, completely incoherent blubberings - blind unreasonable forces behind the steering wheel of reason.
CHartsil: It’s completely self defeating.
"Self-defeating"? "You" using that term is truly beyond pathetic. Are you for real? Oh I forgot, "you" don't exist and are incapable of reasoning - "you" are nothing but disjoint blind unreasonable particles in motion.Box
February 21, 2015
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No, the fact that it's a strawman is what makes it a strawman. Again, it's not just my case. It's your case, just believing you were created by god doesn't make it so. Really, you're using what you think is an unreliable brain and sense of reasoning in order to believe in the god you think gives you the ability to reason. It's completely self defeating.CHartsil
February 21, 2015
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CHartsil: Ignoring the same strawman, it’s the case whether you understand it or not.
More incoherent blubberings. My compliments for avoiding to speak in the first person, which doesn't make sense under materialism. However simply stating that something is a strawman doesn't make it so and adding "whether you understand it or not" doesn't change that fact. Again, no surprise here. In a way "you" are making the case for materialism: blind forces are behind the steering wheel - at least in "your" case.Box
February 21, 2015
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Ignoring the same strawman, it's the case whether you understand it or not. Just believing in god because it feels good and because it gives you the idea that you have the epistemological high ground doesn't make it so.CHartsil
February 21, 2015
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CHartsil: Strawman, nonsequitur
Incoherent blubbering. No surprise here, considering that, in "your" case, blind unreasonable forces are behind the steering wheel, so to speak. "You" obviously don't have the tools to grasp the meaning, truth and logic of what is stated in #27. Moreover there is no one home to grasp meaning, truth and logic - "you" are nothing but particles in motion.Box
February 21, 2015
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"Don’t take it personal, because – according to “you” – personality does not exist." Strawman, nonsequitur "as to: “Lenski’s E. coli was definitively an IC product of evolution.” That claim is false:" In some 20,000+ generations, his E. coli made a shift from being able to metabolize citrate anaerobically to being able to metabolize it aerobically due to multiple, potentiating mutations. It's know that it's the result of multiple, complementary mutations because it can only be repeated after a certain generation. So that's new information and multiple changes in multiple systems, all conferring one function. Of course if you disagree with that, you could always make a youtube video about it. bFast, that's because IC isn't taken seriously in the scientific community. Just like someone doing a paper on germ theory isn't going to say "Well our work debunks the idea that demons cause disease". Andre, they produced a novel function requiring multiple changes in different systems all that confer one trait. Define IC for us.CHartsil
February 21, 2015
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Honestly Lenski is cited for IC? Materialists say the darnest things.Andre
February 20, 2015
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We already know that natural processes can produce irreducible complexity. Not in the sense of the observation of the evolution of intelligence but Lenski’s E. coli was definitively an IC product of evolution.
Praise Jesus!Mung
February 20, 2015
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CHartsil, "but Lenski’s E. coli was definitively an IC product of evolution." Ok, I'm curious. I just spent 15 minutes googling Lenski’s E. coli. 'Came up with lots of reports about it, none of which declare "IC HERE". It appears that the biggest success of the experiment is the ability to digest citrate in an aerobic environment. It appears that a relatively neutral mutation happened which allowed another mutation to be beneficial -- allowing for the the e-coli to to continue to digest citrate when oxygen was present. Is that about it? Have I missed something in my 15 minutes of research?bFast
February 20, 2015
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as to: "Lenski’s E. coli was definitively an IC product of evolution." That claim is false:
Richard Lenski’s Long-Term Evolution Experiments with E. coli and the Origin of New Biological Information – September 2011 Excerpt: The results of future work aside, so far, during the course of the longest, most open-ended, and most extensive laboratory investigation of bacterial evolution, a number of adaptive mutations have been identified that endow the bacterial strain with greater fitness compared to that of the ancestral strain in the particular growth medium. The goal of Lenski’s research was not to analyze adaptive mutations in terms of gain or loss of function, as is the focus here, but rather to address other longstanding evolutionary questions. Nonetheless, all of the mutations identified to date can readily be classified as either modification-of-function or loss-of-FCT. (Michael J. Behe, “Experimental Evolution, Loss-of-Function Mutations and ‘The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution’,” Quarterly Review of Biology, Vol. 85(4) (December, 2010).) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/09/richard_lenskis_long_term_evol051051.html Lenski's Long-Term Evolution Experiment: 25 Years and Counting - Michael Behe - November 21, 2013 Excerpt: Twenty-five years later the culture -- a cumulative total of trillions of cells -- has been going for an astounding 58,000 generations and counting. As the article points out, that's equivalent to a million years in the lineage of a large animal such as humans. Combined with an ability to track down the exact identities of bacterial mutations at the DNA level, that makes Lenski's project the best, most detailed source of information on evolutionary processes available anywhere,,, ,,,for proponents of intelligent design the bottom line is that the great majority of even beneficial mutations have turned out to be due to the breaking, degrading, or minor tweaking of pre-existing genes or regulatory regions (Behe 2010). There have been no mutations or series of mutations identified that appear to be on their way to constructing elegant new molecular machinery of the kind that fills every cell. For example, the genes making the bacterial flagellum are consistently turned off by a beneficial mutation (apparently it saves cells energy used in constructing flagella). The suite of genes used to make the sugar ribose is the uniform target of a destructive mutation, which somehow helps the bacterium grow more quickly in the laboratory. Degrading a host of other genes leads to beneficial effects, too.,,, - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/11/richard_lenskis079401.html Bacterial 'Evolution' Is Actually Design in Action by Brian Thomas, M.S. - Dec. 2012 Excerpt: At that time, the mechanism underlying the citrate-eating phenotype was unknown. Behe wrote, "If the [Cit+] phenotype is due to one or more mutations that result in, for example, the addition of a novel genetic regulatory element, gene-duplication with sequence divergence, or the gain of a new binding site, then it will be a noteworthy gain-of-FCT [Functional Coded elemenT] mutation."2 So, the big question is: Did E. coli evolve into a Cit+ strain by natural selection? Or did mutations construct new and functional coded elements to its DNA? If so, it would be the first in recorded biological history. If not, then it would be just another loss or modification of a pre-existing piece. In Lenski's experiment, the bacteria (both Cit+ and wild-type) already possessed a gene named citT. It encodes a protein that transports a range of citrate-like chemicals. The recent results showed that the bacteria made extra copies of citT and a neighboring sequence—a process called gene amplification. More copies of the gene should translate to higher amounts of the transporter protein that it encodes. With enough transporters, the bacteria could access enough citrate. But oxygen deactivates citT, and having many copies of a gene that is turned off is not very useful! But the bacteria solved this problem when the amplification event also moved the gene sequence to a different place in the bacterial chromosome, where a different but pre-existing promoter could regulate it. Unlike the original one, it appears that the new promoter does not have an "oxygen off" switching mode. Instead, it allowed expression of citT in the presence of oxygen so that the bacteria successfully imported enough citrate to grow. The study authors wrote, "The structure of the cit amplification led us to propose that the Cit+ trait arose from an amplification-mediated promoter capture."1 Further investigation confirmed the proposal. So, the bacteria solved the problem of accessing an alternative food source by generating extra copies of the critical gene and by placing those copies under the control of an appropriate promoter. Does any of this resemble natural, undirected Darwinian evolution? Not at all. This amazing mechanism invented no new functional coded elements. It merely modified pre-existing elements. Therefore, not only did the Cit+ bacteria not evolve in the molecules-to-man direction, but they showed what could only be ingenious DNA rearrangement mechanisms. What mainstream headlines portrayed as evidence for evolution is actually the opposite.3 http://www.icr.org/article/bacterial-evolution-actually-design/
bornagain77
February 20, 2015
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CHartsil, “how do you categorize “consciousness” and/or “intelligence”? Are they perhaps in the supernatural category?”
CHartsil: They’re products of the brain.
So according to "ÿou", "you" are nothing but chemistry. Everything "you" say is produced by blind processes that don't give a hood about meaning, truth, logic or anything; all they care about is natural law. Obviously a rational discussion with "you" - nothing but blind particles in motion - is not possible. - - Don't take it personal, because - according to "you" - personality does not exist.Box
February 20, 2015
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