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New Scientist editors admit: Recent research has shot no-big bang cosmology “full of holes”

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In “The Genesis problem” (13 January 2012), New Scientist’s editors acknowledge the key problem with modern cosmology:

The big bang is now part of the furniture of modern cosmology, but Hoyle’s unease has not gone away. Many physicists have been fighting a rearguard action against it for decades, largely because of its theological overtones. If you have an instant of creation, don’t you need a creator?

Cosmologists thought they had a workaround. Over the years, they have tried on several different models of the universe that dodge the need for a beginning while still requiring a big bang. But recent research has shot them full of holes (see “Why physicists can’t avoid a creation event”). It now seems certain that the universe did have a beginning.

Now, if logic prevailed, the idea that the universe might also have a creator would be on the table for discussion.

But don’t expect logic to prevail. Brace yourself for many more weird and wonderful tales, once this bout of cold logic wears off.

That’s the funny part: We used to get “amazing miracle” stuff from religion. Now not so much. Who can compete with recent cosmologies for parades of unbelievables?

See also: Vilenkin’s verdict: “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.”

Also: Vilenkin used to be a multiverse proponent, first class.

21 Replies to “New Scientist editors admit: Recent research has shot no-big bang cosmology “full of holes”

  1. 1
    bornagain77 says:

    The funny thing about atheists demanding ‘randomness’ to be their creator god, instead of God to be their creator God, is that randomness equates with chaos. So, when the final tally of all things is run, atheists are actually desiring that chaos be in full control of their lives. The deeper ‘spiritual’ implications of this are interesting. For instance, this article from a while back gives a hint of some of the deeper ‘spiritual’ implications:


    Blackholes – The neo-Darwinian ‘god of entropic randomness’ which can create all things (at least according to them)

    Being the helpful guy I am, always trying to help atheists out when I get a chance, I’ve been trying to piece together a experiment that would prove once and for all, for everyone to see, that RANDOM variation plus undirected natural selection can produce functional proteins just as atheists adamantly claim (even though no one has ever seen RANDOM processes do this). Now I just about got the RANDOM part of the experiment down for the atheists! I’ve searched for the maximum source of randomness that I could find in the universe, (since the ‘god of randomness’ is who atheists adamantly claim for their creator), and I think I’ve found their god for them;


    Thermodynamics – 3.1 Entropy
    Entropy – A measure of the amount of randomness
    or disorder in a system.

    Thus, the more entropy a system has the more randomness it will generate for our experiment to find a RANDOM functional protein. And if we ask, ‘what is the maximum source of entropy, i.e. RANDOMNESS, in the universe?’, we find this:

    Entropy of the Universe – Hugh Ross – May 2010
    Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated.

    “But why was the big bang so precisely organized, whereas the big crunch (or the singularities in black holes) would be expected to be totally chaotic? It would appear that this question can be phrased in terms of the behaviour of the WEYL part of the space-time curvature at space-time singularities. What we appear to find is that there is a constraint WEYL = 0 (or something very like this) at initial space-time singularities-but not at final singularities-and this seems to be what confines the Creator’s choice to this very tiny region of phase space.”
    Roger Penrose – How Special Was The Big Bang?

    Plus for a added bonus for atheists, being the helpful guy that I am, I found that if we find a massive magnetized blackhole we might just start to overcome the homochirality problem, which is a huge problem against finding functional proteins, as well:

    Homochirality and Darwin: part 2 – Robert Sheldon – May 2010
    Excerpt: With regard to the deniers who think homochirality is not much of a problem, I only ask whether a solution requiring multiple massive magnetized black-hole supernovae doesn’t imply there is at least a small difficulty to overcome? A difficulty, perhaps, that points to the non-random nature of life in the cosmos?

    But of course there is the extreme logistics problem with actually transporting the atheists to the massive magnetized blackholes to actually do the experiments, so that they may try to actually RANDOMLY generate a functional protein just as they claim can be done. Not to mention the minor problem of someone trying to survive being stretched into as a piece of spaghetti, by the extreme warping of space-time, near the blackhole.

    What Would Happen If You Fell into a Black Hole? – video

    ,,Not to mention trying to survive the extremely high temperatures surrounding the event horizon of the black hole:,,

    Scientists gear up to take a picture of a black hole – January 2012
    Excerpt: “Swirling around the black hole like water circling the drain in a bathtub, the matter compresses and the resulting friction turns it into plasma heated to a billion degrees or more, causing it to ‘glow’ – and radiate energy that we can detect here on Earth.”

    But what the hey, it is just a little sacrifice for ‘science’ right!?! At least atheists will have the maximum source of randomness in the universe to work with in their experiments!!! But there is another problem I probably need to tell atheists about before they pack up and go off to the massive magnetized blackholes in order to prove to the world that their ‘god of randomness’ can create all things,

    “Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more.”
    Gilbert Newton Lewis – Eminent Chemist

    “Is there a real connection between entropy in physics and the entropy of information? ….The equations of information theory and the second law are the same, suggesting that the idea of entropy is something fundamental…”
    Tom Siegfried, Dallas Morning News, 5/14/90 – Quotes attributed to Robert W. Lucky, Ex. Director of Research, AT&T, Bell Laboratories & John A. Wheeler, of Princeton & Univ. of TX, Austin in the article

    But what the hey, atheists haven’t needed any stinking equations to prove their theory so far have they!?!

    Oxford University Admits Darwinism’s Shaky Math Foundation – May 2011
    Excerpt: However, mathematical population geneticists mainly deny that natural selection leads to optimization of any useful kind. This fifty-year old schism is intellectually damaging in itself, and has prevented improvements in our concept of what fitness is. – On a 2011 Job Description for a Mathematician, at Oxford, to ‘fix’ the persistent mathematical problems with neo-Darwinism within two years.

    I even have a inspirational quote for the future experiment of our space traveling atheists;

    “I have attempted to give you a glimpse…of what there may be of soul in chemistry. But it may have been in vain. Perchance the chemist is already damned and the guardian the blackest. But if the chemist has lost his soul, he will not have lost his courage and as he descends into the inferno, sees the rows of glowing furnaces and sniffs the homey fumes of brimstone, he will call out-: ‘Asmodeus, hand me a test-tube.’”(1) Gilbert Newton Lewis

    And I even have a inspirational song for their experiment;

    Creed – Six Feet

    further note:

    Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff – video (notes in description)

  2. 2
    sinclairjd says:

    I think Anthony Aguirre throws considerable light on the situation in this quote:

    “For an observer along that worldline to perceive an arrow of time (AOT) it must see local net entropy generation. To the past, it sees entropy destruction. In a finite neighborhood, there is finite entropy, so going far enough ‘to the past’ the entropy must (a) asymptote to a constant, (b) start to increase again, or (c) become ill-defined as a singularity is encountered.” (Aguirre 2007, p. 30)

    For convenience, start with Aguirre who is talking within a General Relativity context. The ‘singularity’ applies to the familiar inflationary models and others that feature (on average) expansion over their histories. The asymptote applies to the type of models that Vilenkin is now tackling; ones where the average past expansion is zero. The other option (a reversed arrow of time) applies to Aguirre’s own inflationary model.

    Imagine also a cyclic model which is said to have Big Bang like (low entropy) singularities at both ends of the cycle. It is possible to interpret this in terms similar to Aguirre’s. There is no entropy reducing phase. There is only expansion with a reversed arrow of time.

    If Vilenkin is right, (a) and (c) of Aguirre’s suggestions result in a universe with a beginning. I suggest the same is true of situations with a reversed arrow of time. Neither half of the biverse represents the past of the other. There is no past eternality.

    The above case is oversimplified, of course, but I think one ends up with a conclusion there is a beginning under General Relativity. What happens when you begin to consider Quantum Gravity? I think Victor Stenger’s interpretation of Stephen Hawking’s model in his book “Fallacy of Fine-Tuning” falls in the same category as Aguirre’s model. Neither half of his biverse represents the past of the other. So there is still an origin to contend with.

    When you get to a fuller application of QG one has to deal with the problem of time. Some think that there is no time in the purest application. Others will argue that time is recoverable in QG. There is also the critical input of philosophers. Many philosophers will argue that time has a metaphysical basis, and hence it is more fundamental then the physical interpretation of time.

    My own view is that this is where you have to go deeper into what models mean and what they are. I’m a physicist and modeler by profession. The internal entities of models are often not be taken as an attempt to correspond with reality. That doesn’t mean such models (‘instrumental’ as opposed to ‘realist’) are bad. For example, Stephen Hawking’s original view (modified somewhat in his book “The Grand Design”) of his cosmogony was that of a logical positivist: the internals of the model are not thought to represent the true fact of the matter regarding reality. But it does do useful things such as predict what we should see when we look at the cosmos.

    I think the idea that time has metaphysical basis is plausibly defensible, and hence I believe that physical models that don’t contain it are either untenable or instrumental. If this is so, then QG models that predict ‘quasi-classical’ histories are actually multiverses that describe origin events at the ‘point’ where time (and maybe space) appears to fracture. The underlying, more ‘fundamental’ description should be taken as instrumental.

    I think if you try to adopt an atemporal reality as a realist view, you end with bizarre consequences such as a denial of cause and effect. On such a view, for example, Darwinian evolution would merely be an illusion!

    Aguirre, Anthony (2007): “Eternal Inflation Past and Future”, in Beyond the Big Bang Ed. R. Vaas, Heidelberg: Springer Verlag, preprint:

  3. 3
    kuartus says:

    Hello sinclairjd.

    Have you read lawrence krauss’ new book, “A universe from nothing”?
    If so, what is your impression of it?

    Also, not to be too forward but, are you by any chance the physicist James Sinclair who authored a chapter in the blackwell companion to natural theology along side Dr. Craig?
    Just wondering.

  4. 4
    champignon says:

    Hi sinclairjd,

    I think if you try to adopt an atemporal reality as a realist view, you end with bizarre consequences such as a denial of cause and effect. On such a view, for example, Darwinian evolution would merely be an illusion!

    I think the situation is not quite so dire. Even in an atemporal reality, there are allowed configurations and disallowed configurations. Configurations in one region are limited (or even determined) by configurations in other regions. This is a kind of causality, dictated by physical law, even if it doesn’t unfold over time.

  5. 5
    champignon says:


    The funny thing about atheists demanding ‘randomness’ to be their creator god, instead of God to be their creator God, is that randomness equates with chaos.

    The funny thing about atheists demanding randomness to be their creator god is that they don’t. You’d benefit from more time spent listening to atheists and less time telling us what we believe.

    Being the helpful guy I am, always trying to help atheists out when I get a chance, I’ve been trying to piece together a experiment…

    If you really want to help us out, how about responding to our arguments instead of burying everybody under reams of mostly irrelevant and repetitive spam?

    And why did you bail out of this exchange, instead of answering my challenges? If you have answers, the helpful thing would be to present them. If you don’t, then be helpful and admit it.

  6. 6
    bornagain77 says:

    I think a proper appreciation for just what science itself has revealed to us about the nature of space-time bears worth repeating since so many loose tangents seem to be in play. First to rehash what our science says.

    Quantum Teleportation – IBM Research Page
    Excerpt: “it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,,”

    Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia
    Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,,

    Single photons to soak up data:
    Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information.

    It is important to note that the following experiment actually encoded information into a photon while it was in its quantum wave state, thus destroying the notion, held by many, that the wave function was not ‘physically real’ but was merely ‘abstract’. i.e. How can information possibly be encoded into something that is not physically real but merely abstract?

    Ultra-Dense Optical Storage – on One Photon
    Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image’s worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact.

    The following paper mathematically corroborated the preceding experiment and cleaned up some pretty nasty probabilistic incongruities that arose from a purely statistical interpretation of the wave function, i.e. it seems that stacking a ‘random infinity’, (parallel universes to explain quantum wave collapse), on top of another ‘random infinity’, to explain quantum entanglement, leads to irreconcilable mathematical absurdities within quantum mechanics:

    Quantum Theory’s ‘Wavefunction’ Found to Be Real Physical Entity: Scientific American – November 2011
    Excerpt: David Wallace, a philosopher of physics at the University of Oxford, UK, says that the theorem is the most important result in the foundations of quantum mechanics that he has seen in his 15-year professional career. “This strips away obscurity and shows you can’t have an interpretation of a quantum state as probabilistic,” he says.

    The quantum (wave) state cannot be interpreted statistically – November 2011


    Physicists describe method to observe timelike entanglement – January 2011
    Excerpt: In “ordinary” quantum entanglement, two particles possess properties that are inherently linked with each other, even though the particles may be spatially separated by a large distance. Now, physicists S. Jay Olson and Timothy C. Ralph from the University of Queensland have shown that it’s possible to create entanglement between regions of spacetime that are separated in time but not in space, and then to convert the timelike entanglement into normal spacelike entanglement. They also discuss the possibility of using this timelike entanglement from the quantum vacuum for a process they call “teleportation in time.” “To me, the exciting aspect of this result (that entanglement exists between the future and past) is that it is quite a general property of nature and opens the door to new creativity, since we know that entanglement can be viewed as a resource for quantum technology,” Olson told

    It should be carefully noted that the preceding experiments pretty much dots all the i’s and cross all the t’s as far as concretely establishing ‘transcendent information’ as its own unique, independent, entity. Its own unique entity that is completely separate from, and dominate of, space-time, matter-energy.

    Reflections on the ‘infinite transcendent information’ framework, as well as on the ‘eternal’ and ‘temporal’ frameworks:

    The weight of mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, thus mass will never go the speed of light. Yet, mass would disappear from our sight if it could go the speed of light, because, from our non-speed of light perspective, distance in direction of travel will shrink to zero for the mass going the speed of light. Whereas conversely, if mass could travel at the speed of light, its size will stay the same while all other frames of reference not traveling the speed of light will disappear from its sight.

    Special Relativity – Time Dilation and Length Contraction – video

    Moreover time, as we understand it, would come to a complete stop at the speed of light. To grasp the whole ‘time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.

    Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – ‘thought experiment’ video

  7. 7
    bornagain77 says:

    ,,,Yet, even though light has this ‘eternal’ attribute in regards to our temporal framework of time, for us to hypothetically travel at the speed of light, in this universe, will still only get us to first base as far as quantum entanglement, or teleportation, is concerned.

    Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God – video

    That is to say, traveling at the speed of light will only get us to the place where time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. gets us to the eternal, ‘past and future folding into now’, framework of time. This higher dimension, ‘eternal’, inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not ‘frozen within time’ yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light.

    “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.”
    Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest

    “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”
    Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12

    Experimental confirmation of Time Dilation

    It is also very interesting to note that we have two very different qualities of ‘eternality of time’ revealed by our time dilation experiments;

    Time Dilation – General and Special Relativity – Chuck Missler – video

    Time dilation
    Excerpt: Time dilation: special vs. general theories of relativity:
    In Albert Einstein’s theories of relativity, time dilation in these two circumstances can be summarized:
    1. –In special relativity (or, hypothetically far from all gravitational mass), clocks that are moving with respect to an inertial system of observation are measured to be running slower. (i.e. For any observer accelerating, hypothetically, to the speed of light, time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop).
    2.–In general relativity, clocks at lower potentials in a gravitational field—such as in closer proximity to a planet—are found to be running slower.

    i.e. As with any observer accelerating to the speed of light, it is found that for any observer falling into the event horizon of a black hole, that time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop for them. — But of particular interest to the ‘eternal framework’ found for General Relativity at black holes;… It is interesting to note that entropic decay (Randomness), which is the primary reason why things grow old and eventually die in this universe, is found to be greatest at black holes. Thus the ‘eternality of time’ at black holes can rightly be called ‘eternalities of decay and/or eternalities of destruction’.

    Entropy of the Universe – Hugh Ross – May 2010
    Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated.

    Roger Penrose – How Special Was The Big Bang?
    “But why was the big bang so precisely organized, whereas the big crunch (or the singularities in black holes) would be expected to be totally chaotic? It would appear that this question can be phrased in terms of the behaviour of the WEYL part of the space-time curvature at space-time singularities. What we appear to find is that there is a constraint WEYL = 0 (or something very like this) at initial space-time singularities-but not at final singularities-and this seems to be what confines the Creator’s choice to this very tiny region of phase space.”

    i.e. The event horizons of Black Holes are found to be ‘timeless’ singularities of randomness, chaos, and disorder rather than singularities of creation and order such as the extreme (1 in 10^10^123) low entropic order we see at the creation event of the Big Bang. Needless to say, the implications of this ‘eternality of chaos’ should be fairly disturbing for those of us who are of a ‘spiritually minded’ persuasion!

    Matthew 10:28
    “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    On the Mystery, and Plasticity, Of Space-Time

    It is also very interesting to note that this strange higher dimensional, eternal, framework for time, found in special relativity, and general relativity, finds multiple ‘eye witness’ corroboration in Near Death Experience testimonies:

    ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’
    Mickey Robinson – Near Death Experience testimony

    ‘When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.’
    Dr. Ken Ring – has extensively studied Near Death Experiences

    ‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’ – Kimberly Clark Sharp – NDE Experiencer

    ‘There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.’ – John Star – NDE Experiencer

    It is also very interesting to point out that the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’, reported in many Near Death Experiences(NDEs), is also corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please compare the similarity of the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, with the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ reported in very many Near Death Experiences: (Of note: This following video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.)

    Approaching The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video

    Here is the interactive website, with link to the relativistic math at the bottom of the page, related to the preceding video;

    Seeing Relativity

    Here is corroboration of the tunnel from Near Death testimonies,,,

    The NDE and the Tunnel – Kevin Williams’ research conclusions
    Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.(Barbara Springer)

    Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video

  8. 8
    bornagain77 says:

    As well, as with the tunnel being present in heavenly Judeo-Christian NDE’s, we also have mention of tunnels in hellish NDE testimonies;

    A man, near the beginning of this video, gives testimony of falling down a ‘tunnel’ in the transition stage from this world to hell:

    Hell – A Warning! – video

    The man, in this following video, also speaks of ‘tumbling down’ a tunnel in his transition stage to hell:

    Bill Wiese on Sid Roth – video

    As well, as with the ‘scientifically/mathematically’ verified tunnel for special relativity, we also have scientific/mathematical confirmation of extreme ‘tunnel curvature’, within space-time, to a ‘eternal event horizon’ at black holes;

    Space-Time of a Black hole

    Once again, these consistent findings from science/math, that just so happen to corroborate a consistent characteristic of NDE testimonies, ‘should’ be fairly disturbing for those of us of a spiritual leaning,,,,

    Moreover, severely contrary to what atheists would prefer for us to believe, there actually is solid empirical evidence for a ‘soul’ to man that provides a coherent mechanism for traversing to these higher space time dimensions revealed by our science:

    Cellular Communication through Light
    Excerpt: Information transfer is a life principle. On a cellular level we generally assume that molecules are carriers of information, yet there is evidence for non-molecular information transfer due to endogenous coherent light. This light is ultra-weak, is emitted by many organisms, including humans and is conventionally described as biophoton emission.

    Biophotons – The Light In Our Cells – Marco Bischof – March 2005
    Excerpt page 2: The Coherence of Biophotons: ,,, Biophotons consist of light with a high degree of order, in other words, biological laser light. Such light is very quiet and shows an extremely stable intensity, without the fluctuations normally observed in light. Because of their stable field strength, its waves can superimpose, and by virtue of this, interference effects become possible that do not occur in ordinary light. Because of the high degree of order, the biological laser light is able to generate and keep order and to transmit information in the organism.

    Are humans really beings of light?
    Excerpt: “We now know, today, that man is essentially a being of light.”,,, “There are about 100,000 chemical reactions happening in every cell each second. The chemical reaction can only happen if the molecule which is reacting is excited by a photon… Once the photon has excited a reaction it returns to the field and is available for more reactions… We are swimming in an ocean of light.”

    Coast to Coast – Vicki’s Near Death Experience (Blind From Birth) part 1 of 3

    Quote from preceding video: ‘I was in a body and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head. It had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And ‘it’ was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.’ –
    Vicky Noratuk

    “Miracles do not happen in contradiction to nature, but only in contradiction to that which is known to us of nature.”
    St. Augustine

    Falsification Of Neo-Darwinism by Quantum Entanglement/Information

    Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff – video (notes in description)

  9. 9
    bornagain77 says:

    Moreover, the quantum entanglement/information that is, in fact, ‘holding us together’ at the base molecular scale is, in fact, of a ‘higher quality’ of higher dimensionality than 4-D space-time itself is:

    3D to 4D shift – Carl Sagan – video with notes
    Excerpt from Notes: The state-space of quantum mechanics is an infinite-dimensional function space. Some physical theories are also by nature high-dimensional, such as the 4-dimensional general relativity.

    ,,,but to continue on with the main topic,,, hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be instantaneous travel for the observer going at the speed of light. This is because time, as we understand it, does not pass for them, yet, and this is a very big ‘yet’ to take note of; this ‘timeless’ travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework of time, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our perspective. Yet, in quantum teleportation of information, the ‘time not passing’, i.e. ‘eternal’, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but is also ‘instantaneously’ achieved in our temporal framework. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks, not just the speed of light framework. Information teleportation/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us. Thus ‘pure transcendent information’ is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we have now examined; transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which ‘It’ resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned).

    “An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality”
    Akiane Kramarik – Child Prodigy –
    Music video –

    Logic also dictates ‘a decision’ must have been made, by the ‘transcendent, eternal, infinite information’ from the primary timeless (eternal) reality ‘It’ inhabits, in order to purposely create a temporal reality with highly specified, irreducible complex, parameters from a infinite set of possibilities in the proper sequential order. Thus this infinite transcendent information, which is the primary reality of our reality, is shown to be alive by yet another line of evidence besides the necessity for a ‘first mover’ to explain quantum wave collapse.

    The First Cause Must Be A Personal Being – William Lane Craig – video

    As a side light to this, leading quantum physicist Anton Zeilinger has followed in John Archibald Wheeler’s footsteps (1911-2008) by insisting reality, at its most foundational level, is ‘information’.

    “It from bit symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom – at a very deep bottom, in most instances – an immaterial source and explanation; that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that things physical are information-theoretic in origin.”
    John Archibald Wheeler

    Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe?
    Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: “In the beginning was the Word.” Anton Zeilinger – a leading expert in quantum teleportation:

    Prof Anton Zeilinger speaks on quantum physics. at UCT – video

    further note:

    Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics

  10. 10
    bornagain77 says:

    related footnote:

    Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time
    Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. (This experiment provides experimental proof that the teleportation of quantum information in this universe must be complete and instantaneous.)

  11. 11
    woodford says:

    If you really want to help us out, how about responding to our arguments instead of burying everybody under reams of mostly irrelevant and repetitive spam?

    That’s why the Intelligent Designer made the page-down key on the keyboard, and the click-wheel on the mouse so you can quickly skip over all of Bornagain77’s posts. Until BA77 learns to communicate with his own words, I refuse on principle to bother to read his spams. But I suspect he won’t learn and I also suspect too I”m not the only one who ignores him.

  12. 12
    bornagain77 says:

    “Physics is the only real science. The rest are just stamp collecting.”
    — Ernest Rutherford

  13. 13
    sinclairjd says:

    Yes, that’s me.

  14. 14
    sinclairjd says:


    You make a sound point that we shouldn’t forget. Thanks for that. Causality requires priority, but not temporality.

    My own view is that the best defense of Darwin’s theory is to accept the A-theory of time, as that is best stated as “thing endure and change over time as described by the laws of physics.” On such a view, biological evolution fits naturally into the metaphysics.

    I tend to think that at the very least, to recover something that looks like Darwin from an atemporal model(such as Julian Barbour’s ‘time capsules’ or David Deutsch’s ‘collection of snapshots’) one is going to have to take them as real. Otherwise what is really going on is so alien it seems to me it has no connection to what the biologists wish to say really happened. I have some problems with trying to do this on a B-theory of time as well. If it could be done, it strikes me as an embarrassment to be explained away, as opposed to A-theory where there is no such embarrassment.

    I think it’s a problem that needs to be worked on, and I thank you for your input and any further thoughts you have on it.

  15. 15
    sinclairjd says:


    Thanks especially for your references on quantum mechanics.

  16. 16
    bornagain77 says:

    No problem sinclairjd, this may interest you as well;

    The following articles show that even atoms (Ions) are subject to teleportation (reduction to quantum information):

    Of note: An ion is an atom or molecule in which the total number of electrons is not equal to the total number of protons, giving it a net positive or negative electrical charge.

    Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups
    Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable – it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ‘clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ‘copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,,

    Atom takes a quantum leap – 2009
    Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been ‘teleported’ over a distance of a metre.,,,
    “What you’re moving is information, not the actual atoms,” says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second.

    a few more footnotes:

    Unconditional Quantum Teleportation – abstract
    Excerpt: This is the first realization of unconditional quantum teleportation where every state entering the device is actually teleported,,

    Researchers Succeed in Quantum Teleportation of Light Waves – April 2011
    Excerpt: In this experiment, researchers in Australia and Japan were able to transfer quantum information from one place to another without having to physically move it. It was destroyed in one place and instantly resurrected in another, “alive” again and unchanged. This is a major advance, as previous teleportation experiments were either very slow or caused some information to be lost.

    Converting Quantum Bits: Physicists Transfer Information Between Matter and Light
    Excerpt: A team of physicists at the Georgia Institute of Technology has taken a significant step toward the development of quantum communications systems by successfully transferring quantum information from two different groups of atoms onto a single photon.

  17. 17
    bornagain77 says:

    sinclairjd, if you are interested I corrected the old links that didn’t work, in my previous comments, here at this site:

    Space-Time and Our Place In It

  18. 18
    champignon says:


    Evolutionary theory is a causal theory. As long as causality is preserved in an atemporal reality (and we seem to agree that it is), I don’t see how evolution is in any jeopardy.

    And if it were in jeopardy, it wouldn’t be alone. Any theory or narrative that involved causality or the passage of time would be in similar jeopardy, including many religious concepts and narratives. I don’t think you can use atemporality to selectively attack evolutionary theory. If the attack is successful, there will be a lot of collateral damage.

    Think of it this way: temporal and atemporal views of reality, if they’re correct, are mathematically equivalent. Realists acknowledge that models and theories are just approximations to the underlying reality, so if there are two mathematically equivalent models to choose from, we pick the one that is easier to work with. Think of the time domain/frequency domain duality in circuit analysis, or the Maldacena Duality in string theory.

    If we choose to continue expressing evolutionary theory in temporal terms, it is for reasons of convenience. It doesn’t imply a do-or-die commitment to the metaphysical reality of time.

  19. 19
    sinclairjd says:

    Thanks again for the vigorous reply! I appreciate you helping me think this through.

    First off, I should say I’m not attacking evolutionary theory. I really do think it is best defended from a realist A-theory framework. I have been convinced through the evidence that common descent holds. I think it would be highly entertaining if in some subsequent generation, it is the theists who defend the mantle of evolution!

    I think you’re right that many religious concepts and narratives appeal to causation and temporality. I think it would be a very interesting question whether such concepts can be recovered in a genuinely atemporal realm.

    That said, although we agree that causality is a concept that need not be temporal, I don’t think that the models that are being put forward are going to be compatible with an account of causality where evolution is something other than illusory. I think the situation is similar to the way temporal beooming is illusory (to the mind) on a B-theory o f time.

    I appreciate your appeal to Duality and multiple models of reality that are ‘good’. In my business (and in, I suspect, yours) we rapidly have to build and or change to models of convenience that precisely fill a certain requirement and don’t harm us in places where extrapolating their meaning would be in error. As I’m sure you agree, we have to be careful what conclusions can be drawn from them!

    But I think that if we want to avoid ontological pluralism and maintain a correspondence theory of truth, then there is going to be a true fact-of-the-matter regarding the cosmos (which I think you agree with given your above comments regarding realism). Thus we’d like to know which model has internal entities that correspond to that fact-of-the-matter.

    So, from the vantage point of the underlying ontology, which of the two models do we think is closer to the underlying truth? One possibility that I can extrapolate from your comment is that maybe both of them are far from the underlying reality! That’s where the issue of Darwin (and, I think your comments regarding collateral damage) gets interesting. Here are positive claims upon which the answer to this question has a lot of impact.

    Could I at least get your agreement that this is an interesting question worth exploring, and maybe it is not being looked at enough by philosophers, and cosmologists who openly traffic in philosophy?

  20. 20
    champignon says:

    Oh, I think it’s a fascinating question. Just keep in mind that the answer affects virtually everything we know (or think we know) about the world — not just evolutionary theory.

    For example, what does it really mean to “think things through” in an atemporal reality?

  21. 21
    Axel says:

    If information can be stored in a photon, it tends to confirm my belief that physical light and spiritual light form a continuum, corresponding with continua of knowledge-faith and space-time; photons being at the interface of matter and spirit.

    Little wonder that the great paradigm changers of the last century have all been, at the very least, deists/panentheists(sic), and of course, in earlier centuries, passionate Christians (in modern parlance ‘nuts’).

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