Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Not Just Intelligently Designed, Intelligently Engineered

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Those of us who are ID proponents often hear the following from ID deniers (hey, if it’s good for the goose, it’s good for the gander): “You mindless, science-destroying, knuckle-dragging, religiously fanatical ID clowns keep talking about complexity. What’s the big deal about complexity? Complex stuff happens all the time by chance and necessity. Get a life, and stop trying to impose a theocracy on those of us who have it all figured out. The science is settled.”

So goes the highly persuasive, ever-logical, empirically validated, ideologically neutral argumentation of the ID denier.

The problem is that living systems are not just transparently intelligently designed; they are intelligently engineered. It’s not just ID; it’s IE.

Those of us who design and engineer functionally integrated systems, especially information-processing systems, know what is required. Design is just the first step. We do mathematical and proof-of-concept studies. Often it is concluded, early on, that the concept is fundamentally flawed and cannot be engineered. When it is concluded that a solution is possible, we build and test prototypes. Trial and error do play a role, but the trials are always planned in advance, based on what has been learned so far, so as to minimize wasted effort. Mindless, unplanned trials are never considered, because their number is essentially infinite, and the probability of success as a result of such an approach is obviously zero.

Once a proof-of-concept study has been completed and validated, and initial prototype engineering has shown promise, a team of engineers with specialized expertise (in our case, electrical, mechanical, aeronautical, and software engineers) pursue the final goal with much teamwork, thought, planning, and dogged determination.

A living cell is not just a marvel of intelligent design. It’s a marvel of intelligent engineering that far surpasses anything we have yet to dream about.

Comments
Lock @59,
But forgive me for asking, what has that got to do with science (using the current definition) or judging design?
..we want to really live, and we know this ain’t it!
The underlying thought in your statement above shows that you aren't looking for this world's answers in this world.Toronto
February 16, 2010
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Toronto: "I think the ID side thinks that this world we are in is temporary, imperfect, and is something that exists at the whim of a designer/creator who can change it when he wishes. He can also save those who are loyal to him by taking them away from here to an existence where they will be safe and happy for all eternity." But there are people like myself who want to really live and believe that this IS it. Not to be coy, but I am not suprised. You are free to believe that. And many theists would be happy to engage philosophically, and kindly, about the pros and cons concerning such a view. I have believed it myself. I have certainly wanted to believe it. I just arrived at a different conclusion eventually. Especially considering that I am not loyal. Oh, I get along pretty well. A disgustingly responsible citizen in so many respects. But when I allow God's Word to lead me to introspection, to the level Jesus redefined life, I find myself looking into a totally different mirror. I am not loyal to Him. Rather, He is loyal to me. I would much rather focus on the positive, and deny the other realities. But forgive me for asking, what has that got to do with science (using the current definition) or judging design? So many of these are personal beliefs. And on both sides of the debate. We would all do well to remember that. Particularly the Evo side, who appear frequently to think they are standing on solid empirical ground. I know how important it is to believe in this world. I know that for some, it is almost life and death to really believe in their goals and ambitions. Everyone needs a reason to live. Just remember that those are questions of meaning and purpose. And notice how desperate we are to believe them.Lock
February 16, 2010
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Nakashima:
The negative consequence of a blind spot? A blind spot!
You say that like it is a brilliant observation. However witty, however, it is meaningless, and reveals the poverty of your position. Perhaps I need to personify this: Detail for me how your own blind spot(s) have negatively affected your existence and quest for survival. Let me make it easier: Show me how it has negatively affected any any living creature. I readily accept that total or even substantial blindess is detrimental. But how is a blind spot detrimental? Even more importantly, if something has no negative consequence, how does that qualify as bad design?SCheesman
February 16, 2010
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Seversky: (agreeing to every way in which an eye lacks "perfection"). Your answer astounds me. I expect if I threw in for effect "the eye should take up no physical space" you would have agreed to that too. God cannot be perfect enough for you. Maybe we'll petition God to give you an extra million years to improve on the eye, since you are so confident it is badly designed. So far you can't even give a convincing reason why a blind spot is a detriment. But in fact, none is so blind as he who will not see.SCheesman
February 16, 2010
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Lock @55,
I do not think I am far off to sum up the existential angst of man by saying that we want to really live, and we know this ain’t it!
I think this is the point of the whole ID/Evo debate right here in this one sentence. I think the ID side thinks that this world we are in is temporary, imperfect, and is something that exists at the whim of a designer/creator who can change it when he wishes. He can also save those who are loyal to him by taking them away from here to an existence where they will be safe and happy for all eternity. But there are people like myself who want to really live and believe that this IS it. We have to adapt to what ever life we find ourselves in and love what's good about it and not live in fear of what's bad about it. That is the key point, that evolution says we adapt to a changing world, which is contrary to the ID view of needing to be protected, and eventually, rescued from it.
I do not think I am far off to sum up the existential angst of man by saying that we want to really live, and we know this ain’t it!
This one thought underlies almost every single post.Toronto
February 16, 2010
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Toronto: "If we “detect” design based on our human design experience, why can’t we judge design based on our human design experience?" Good question. I would like to answer it. And the answer may help you too Seversky... Simmilarities aside, there is a difference between detecting design and judging design. To judge design one must know or presume its meaning and purpose. It is only from that vantage point that we can accurately judge individual traits, abilities or the balanced package as a whole. So to judge biological systems we must first know what life is meant to be. I can understand why a thorough-going materialist (if there really is such a thing) would be tempted to conclude that life was blindly evolved when looking at things we would all consider poor design in nature. But only assuming certain things. Forget eyes and the like, how about war and poverty. How about apathy? I am not patronizing in the least. I really can understand that observation and conclusion to a high degree. I still feel it from time to time myself. But what if God did not design life to be autonomous in the purely material sense? What if flesh (though good and beautiful) was not given the completeness of character by which to ever be truely proud? What if our universe displayed empirically, the existence of non-material dimensions? Which it does btw... What if God designed us to be complete only when in proper alignment with that dimension of reality? Seems to me that mankind (all knowing as he is) generally sits around in a kind of anxious anger and desperation with our own impotence. Worse yet... we often decide to do something about it! And what assumptions does history show we brought then? I do not think I am far off to sum up the existential angst of man by saying that we want to really live, and we know this ain't it! Forgive me for saying that it's easy for me to formulate these rather basic questions in hind sight. I am only expressng how I personally have felt. But that is diffent than thinking. I wanted to be powerful and I wasn't. I still am not. In fact you can choose to ignore this entire post. I am powerless to stop you. Took me a long time (a long time) to hear Him telling me through a life of experience that includes philosphy, science, and etc, "You cannot handle the power you have". So, if I abuse the power I have, why on earth would a good God give me more? I hope everyone is grasping what I am trying to convey. I look at mankind and thank Him for making us weak. I can imagine what history would look like if free (semi-autonomous) beings were made truely powerful physically. I think we all can. But the common design judge infers just such a world as the purpose and meaning of life. Yet, here steps into history this man who (if what is said of Him and by Him is true) has all the power of heaven at his disposal. And He uses it in a way almost completely opposite of the stereotypical human leader. Its as though He were from a completly other world. He challenges almost every human desire, not by denying them as some would, but redefining them outright. I am rambling a bit now (and steering off topic within an already off topic thread), but one thing He is not in my opinion, is an anthropomorphic invention. He is almost anti-human. None of that is a proof for the truth of traditional Christianity. We have all left proofs (especially in the methodological naturalist tradition) behind long ago here. I am only trying to point out the consistency within the claim itself. You want real life and design? First define what that is. And when you work it all out, you may be as suprised as I was to find yourself holding a portrait of Christ. The one thing we do not want. I can understand the objections and questions. What I can't understand is how blind we can be to the assumptions we smuggle in with them. As though we have the right to predetermine what they are. If you want to judge design, you had better lay your definitions of the meaning of life [and its purpose] square on the table. We already see them anyway. It is you who need to see them. So design is poor... Fine! Assuming what?Lock
February 15, 2010
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Seversky,
The alternative is to say that whoever designed the human eye, if it was indeed designed, it was not the God of Christianity.
Do you want to talk theology? Because that is what you're talking, a discussion that you cannot get to by mere design detection. You're importing loads of assumptions that you'll have to parse out, because I don't care to ferret them out of you. But if you insist, again, on talking theology, as I've already responded to you once, if you consider the Fall of man and nature, we would expect to see a damaged, albeit still designed, product. This is perfectly in alignment with Christianity.Clive Hayden
February 15, 2010
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Intelligent Design is not Optimal Design Correcting the tard with one click shopping...Joseph
February 15, 2010
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Seversky, Unfortunately, it is quirte clear that most evolutionists have much grander ambitions for the theory of evolution, ambitions that it cannot sustain.
Can a God, who is supposed to be omniscient, omnipotent and perfect in every way, create something that is less than perfect and remain perfect?
What kind of school-yard sophistry is that? Too bad "God" doesn't have to fit into your narrow-minded PoV. No one said that the Creation had to be perfect and no one said that even if it started out that way that it had to remain that way. Just how can anyone learn anything in a "perfect" world? What experiences can be had in a "perfect" world?" Do you have any arguments of substance?Joseph
February 15, 2010
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Clive Hayden @ 32
If you insist on discussing God in this context, then you have to take into account the Fall of man and nature, and that the design we see now is a damaged version of the original. This discussion is, of course, quite unnecessary in detecting design outright.
I quite agree. If Intelligent Design confines itself to the narrower project of finding a means of reliably identifying design regardless of the nature of the designer it can be an unobjectionable scientific program. Unfortunately, it is quite clear that some of its proponents have much grander ambitions for it, ambitions which it might not be capable of sustaining.Seversky
February 15, 2010
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SCheesman @ 33
So you, an admittedly limited and fallible human, is somehow in a position to pass judgement on the level of design achievable by an omniscient and omnipotent being, and indeed seems to think that perfection should be possible in every aspect of the construction of the eye.
Of course. Are we to suspend our intelligence, our judgement, every critical faculty we possess just because this might be the work of God? Can a God, who is supposed to be omniscient, omnipotent and perfect in every way, create something that is less than perfect and remain perfect?
Do you also feel an eye should: - Have full 360 degrees of vision? Isn’t a restriction to a lesser angle imperfect?
Yes, why not?
- Be able to image using both single photons, yet operate with light levels equal to the surface of the sun?
Yes, why not?
- 100% efficient usage of energy in operation
Yes, why not?
- Perfect potential for self-repair
Yes, why not?
- Instantaneous refresh (e.g. zero latency)
Yes, why not?
- Be able to see every wavelength, at least from it’s own size to the ultra-far ultraviolet?
Yes, why not?
- Have perfect resolution, governed by cell-size over its entire surface/angular range?
Yes, why not?
- Focus from its surface to infinity – all at the same time.
Yes, why not?
- Optimum depth perception (expressed in terms of the separation of the two eyes and visual wavelength)
Yes, why not?
These other parameters seem to this fallible, limited human to be more important than “lack any blind spot”, and none of them appears to be achieved either.
Quite right. Thank you for making my argument for me by itemizing all the other ways in which the eye could be improved. It may be an impressive example of design from a fallible human perspective but not what we would expect from a god.
If it were, in fact, impossible to achieve the myriad actual characteristics of the existing human eye apart from including a blind spot, is God to be judged unqualified?
On the evidence of the human eye, we would have to say yes. The alternative is to say that whoever designed the human eye, if it was indeed designed, it was not the God of Christianity.Seversky
February 15, 2010
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gleaner63 @ 16
I see poor, or bad design on a regular basis. I curse desingers and engineers reguarly.
As do I, but we also see examples if highly-efficient, economical, well-ordered and reliable designs. We are able to do both. It is reasonable to assume that a designer who is much more advanced than we are will get it right more often than we do. 16 gleaner63 02/13/2010 8:03 pm Seversky at #6: “Yes, we all know the human eye works and works very well but no human designer would do such a thing.” This simply is not true, at least in my experience. I see poor, or bad design on a regular basis. I curse desingers and engineers reguarly. For example, what sense does it make to put a 100 pound capacitor in a transmitter that is nearly impossible to remove and replace? What use is a disposable oil filter in a vehicle that can not be removed without busted knuckles and virtually impossible to get a wrench on? And yet, in both of these examples, there are intelligent designers at work.Seversky
February 15, 2010
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tgpeeler @ 14
What about 3.3 BILLION (give or take) base pairs of nucleic acids that manufacture human beings. What about the INFORMATION required to execute those instructions, which are encoded in those base pairs? Is it possible that might be evidence for a “non-human” designer?
It might be or it might be the outcome of a process of accumulating incremental changes over geological time. We have some evidence that such changes occur and we have evidence for the mechanism by which they might happen. We have no reason to think an extraterrestrial designer was responsible other than certain religious beliefs and some controversial calculations of the improbability of it happening through the known mechanisms. As for the question of information, there is still no agreement on what the word means and at least an arguable case that it is misleading to think of information as a property of the genome rather than a property of our methods of modeling what happens there.Seversky
February 15, 2010
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Lock @39,
Funny how our ideas of perfection, efficiency, and the like play right into deeply personal philosphical assumptions concerning meaning and purpose. Those are theological questions unfortunately. Unfortunate, that is, for those who choose to use them as arguments against design.
Or for.Toronto
February 15, 2010
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GilDodgen, Not all of the DNA in a cell seems to perform a function. Would it be good engineering design for the linker of a compiler's toolchain to statically link modules and functions that never get called?Toronto
February 15, 2010
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GilDodgen, at the end of this OP,
A living cell is not just a marvel of intelligent design. It’s a marvel of intelligent engineering that far surpasses anything we have yet to dream about.
Why is it okay for GilDodgen to praise a particular design but not okay for Seversky to criticize one? If we "detect" design based on our human design experience, why can't we judge design based on our human design experience?Toronto
February 15, 2010
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Mr SCheesman, The negative consequence of a blind spot? A blind spot! You are correct that animals with binocular vision can compensate, but compensation is worse than not needing to compensate. However, think of all the animals that do not have binocular vision. According to evolution, the inverted arrangement of the vertebrate eye arose in the ocean. Fish have one eye on each side of the head, so a blind spot is a real blind spot. Compensation would have to arise from moving the whole visual system. The squid swimming next to them does not have this problem.Nakashima
February 15, 2010
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The “obvious” solution was the wrong solution when it came to performance in the real world.
And you established the relative performance of the guided drop systems by trying them out. Sounds almost like natural selection! :)Zach Bailey
February 15, 2010
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I'd still like to see a good (no wait, ANY) explanation of why a blind spot indicates bad design. Precisely what is the negative consequence?SCheesman
February 15, 2010
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Toronto
There are no limits we can put on the designer including any of his tools such as the forces of physics.
No argument from me. I'm just look at the curent state of our knowledge. Right now, the notion of abiogenesis and Darwinian evolution seem inconsistent with our universe and its physical laws. Many (obviously) disagree, but their faith seems stronger, and with less evidentiary support, than my own.SCheesman
February 15, 2010
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Though I appreciate the advance engineering has made in molecular biology I wonder if chemically possible ways of synthesizing DNA, RNA or peptides would stand the same statistical tests that you applies to judge the liklyhood of something having evolved. Are you aware that the coupling efficiencies of the different methods to synthesize DNA are much lower than 100% anf that the yield drops exponentialy with the length of the DNA strand to be synthesized. With a cycle yield of about 98% it is practically impossible to generate full length DNA strands of more than 50nt. With 99.5% accuracy only about 40% of 200nt oligonucleotides will be full length. I would appreciate if somebody here could calculate the number of attempts that are needed to just synthesize a single copy of the human genome.osteonectin
February 14, 2010
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Funny how our ideas of perfection, efficiency, and the like play right into deeply personal philosphical assumptions concerning meaning and purpose. Yes, Human beings are weak and feeble to a very high degree, eyes included. I suppose we would have designed ourselves better. I mean here we are, trapped on this little planet in the vastness of space. Rather helpless we are. It's almost pathetic to consider our insignificance if one judges our worth by the materialistic measures that are appearently employed by so many. We would be capable and noble creatures if only we could design ourselves right? Certainly an all knowing and powerful God ould not have done it this way would he? Those are theological questions unfortunately. Unfortunate, that is, for those who choose to use them as arguments against design.Lock
February 14, 2010
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A living cell is not just a marvel of intelligent design. It’s a marvel of intelligent engineering that far surpasses anything we have yet to dream about.
Who says ID never makes any progress? Up until now, IDists such as Behe and Dembski have been stuck back at the point of detecting design, which, as Mr. Dodgen explains it, would have been just the first part in the development of the living cell. Dodgen has detected that it wasn't just designed, it was engineered! Helpfully, he has described to us what an engineering process entails, including mathematical and proof-of-concept studies, prototyping, teamwork, and dogged determination. Thanks to Mr. Dodgen, IDists now know so much more about what the designer did. [BTW, my thanks go to whoever dug up my comment from yesterday and let it appear above.]Freelurker
February 14, 2010
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Seversky:
I have cited the human eye as one example – there are others – of a design which, while functional, is less than the perfection we are entitled to expect from the Designer that neo-Paleyists aspire to worship.
How do you know it’s less than perfection, given myriad competing design constraints, only a handful of which we are aware, given the highly functionally integrated environment in which the eye operates? Perhaps the wiring comes out the front because the alternative would interfere with blood supply to the energy-hungry retinal cells. The only way to know if your hypothesis is correct would be to construct an eye with your design specifications and see if it is actually superior in practice in the real world. Perhaps you overlooked my comment about our guided airdrop system. Initially, we were told by our competition that what we eventually accomplished could not be done. The “obvious” solution to high-altitude precision airdrop had to involve high-performance parafoils -- after all, they can glide 3,000 feet for every 1,000 feet of altitude lost, while a round parachute can only glide 600 feet for every 1,000 feet of altitude lost. In addition, parafoils have a much higher horizontal velocity component, which means they can penetrate higher winds. We knew that to succeed we needed highly accurate, up-to-the-moment wind information, which we get from our windsonde, which is deployed from the aircraft minutes before the payload deployment, and which transmits the data to the laptop mission planner onboard the aircraft through a wireless data link. These data are then transmitted to the flight-control computers onboard the payloads in the aircraft by another wireless data link, so the flight-control computers know where the payloads must be in the sky at any altitude, in order to drift toward the target on the ground. An electromechanical device then receives instructions from the computer as to how to make trajectory corrections through activation of the parachute risers. As it turns out, the “obvious” way to do it (the scientific consensus) was wrong. At PATCAD (Precision Airdrop Technology Conference And Demonstration at Yuma Proving Ground) , we blew the competition away. The parafoils had a high malfunction rate, and they were scattered all over the landscape. When our payloads landed within an average of 26 meters of the target, after having been dropped from two miles high, our team received a standing ovation from the military personnel in the grandstands. Ours was the only non-parafoil-based system. The “obvious” solution was the wrong solution when it came to performance in the real world.GilDodgen
February 14, 2010
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SCheesman @35, Yonge and Major Mackenzie. It's a small world after all. O'Leary is in Toronto too. I feel outnumbered! :) There are no limits we can put on the designer including any of his tools such as the forces of physics. What we have to try to do is not project any of our limitations on the designer.
We have demonstrated the powers of physics in a lab.
I don't think we have even scratched the surface when it comes to demonstrating the limits of physics. Until Einstein came along, the thinking was that light traveled in a straight line. Gravitational lensing showed that that wasn't true, but proving that light bends would be nearly impossible to do in a lab.Toronto
February 14, 2010
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Toronto
By limiting the designs of the designer, such as the forces of physics, you are limiting the designer. If he cannot create a universe that can create life, he is not the designer you claim he is.
This is a remarkable theological statement. Is God now forbidden from creating a universe with limits on design? Whoever said God couldn't create a universe where the physical laws would not result in the production of life? Not Gil, and not myself. But, apparently, this just happens to be a universe where it doesn't, unless you can demonstrate differently. BTW, where in Toronto? I'm from Burlington.SCheesman
February 14, 2010
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Toronto
Not being able to demonstrate the powers of an intelligent designer in a lab does not show the limits of the designer, anymore that not being able to duplicate biological processes would somehow show the limits of the forces of physics.
We have demonstrated the powers of physics in a lab. It's called chemistry. So far there's no indication that anything remotely similar to life can be produced without the wholesale importation of intelligence. So, I'd say, as of now, the best explanation for us being here is intelligence. And nothing seems to be in second place.SCheesman
February 14, 2010
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Seversky
Human designers produce inept designs because they are fallible beings who have no choice to work within the constraints of limited knowledge, limited energy and limited materials. No such limits are assumed to apply to the Ultimate Designer.
This is truly rich. So you, an admittedly limited and fallible human, is somehow in a position to pass judgement on the level of design achievable by an omniscient and omnipotent being, and indeed seems to think that perfection should be possible in every aspect of the construction of the eye. Do you also feel an eye should: - Have full 360 degrees of vision? Isn't a restriction to a lesser angle imperfect? - Be able to image using both single photons, yet operate with light levels equal to the surface of the sun? - 100% efficient usage of energy in operation - Perfect potential for self-repair - Instantaneous refresh (e.g. zero latency) - Be able to see every wavelength, at least from it's own size to the ultra-far ultraviolet? - Have perfect resolution, governed by cell-size over its entire surface/angular range? - Focus from its surface to infinity - all at the same time. - Optimum depth perception (expressed in terms of the separation of the two eyes and visual wavelength) These other parameters seem to this fallible, limited human to be more important than "lack any blind spot", and none of them appears to be achieved either. Maybe God just didn't think a blind spot was such a big deal when He had other things to consider. If it were, in fact, impossible to achieve the myriad actual characteristics of the existing human eye apart from including a blind spot, is God to be judged unqualified? Perhaps, in a modern version of Dante's inferno, Darwinists shall be provided with the laboratory of their dreams, and given the task of designing a better human eye. After a few million years, I can imagine them coming to the conclusion "Gee, I guess a blind spot is not such a bad compromise after all". Then they can start working on the giraffe's neck and its nerve structure.SCheesman
February 14, 2010
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Seversky,
No such limits are assumed to apply to the Ultimate Designer
If you insist on discussing God in this context, then you have to take into account the Fall of man and nature, and that the design we see now is a damaged version of the original. This discussion is, of course, quite unnecessary in detecting design outright. But if you'd like to get into the "what-ifs" and "expectations" of what you would want to see from the Christian God as the designer, we can discuss that too. But that theological discussion makes no difference to design detection in and of itself, whether good or bad, perfect or imperfect.Clive Hayden
February 14, 2010
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Toronto @30 should read, "he is not the designer they claim he is."Toronto
February 14, 2010
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