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Not Unbroken

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I am broken.

I am not alone though.  You are broken too.  In fact, the whole world and everyone in it is broken.  We recognize that there is the way things are and there is the way things should be and the two are not the same.

What shall we make of this universal awareness of our own brokenness in particular and the world’s brokenness in general?  Denying the awareness exists does no good.  It is there.  It is glaring.  It stares each of us in the face every day.  Denying it is foolish because such a denial is not only false; it is obviously false and convinces no one.

So there it is; our awareness of our and the world’s brokenness.  It exists and any thinking person must try to account for its existence.  It cannot be ignored.  How did that awareness come to be?  Is the awareness based on something real or is it an illusion?

For Jews and Christians, of course, these are easy questions.  We believe in a transcendent moral standard rooted in God’s character.  God has not established the Good.  He is the Good, and all goodness flows from him.  Each of us (whether we say we believe in God or not) innately understands that Goodness exists and that we all fall short of measuring up to it.  I don’t understand why the doctrine of original sin is so controversial.  Of all the doctrines of Christianity, it is the one that is supported by what I would think to be undeniable empirical evidence based on our own personal day-to-day experience and thousands of years of recorded history.

For the materialist, however, it seems to me that the question is all but unanswerable.  At least since Hume we have known that “ought” cannot be grounded in “is.”  The materialist believes that “is” is all there is.  It follows there is nothing on which to ground “ought.”  This is what Dawkins means when he says there is no good and no bad.  On materialist premises – if there really is no good and no bad — there is no reason to believe I and the world are broken.  As Lewis famously said, a man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.  And the materialist denies the existence of straight lines.

Yet that awareness of our own and the world’s brokenness persists nevertheless even for materialists.  The standard Darwinist line, of course, is that the moral impulse is an evolutionary adaptation, and they delight in making up just so stories about why this or that altruistic behavior is adaptive, when they are not making up stories for why the opposite of that behavior is also adaptive.  Altruism is adaptive.  Sure.  But so is rape and murder.  Hmmm.

But when it comes to our awareness of our and the world’s brokenness, none of those stories matters.  We are not talking about individual behaviors that may or may not have been adaptive in the remote evolutionary past.  We are talking about the fact that we all know that a straight line exists and therefore we can call crooked lines crooked, even when we deny knowing any such thing.  I suppose some Darwinist will be able to make up a just so story to explain why this is the case; after all the Darwinist capacity for story telling seems to be limitless.  But I doubt any such story will convince anyone who is not already convinced.  For those of us who are unable to muster the tremendous leaps of faith necessary to become and remain a materialist, the story is likely to be implausible to say the least.

Comments
'Be practical,once we are dead and buried, we are food for microbes.Period. That’s all there is to life.' How can you possibly think that, MT? Even in my most dementedly-rabid agnosticism, I'd only have had to watch one of the better NDEs on YouTube to be totally convinced by the body-language alone of the narrators. To see their emotions expressed so totally in their body-language, is an uplifting experience in itself. Just say to God, tonight. 'Tell me if you exist, please!'Axel
January 13, 2015
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HR, I provided context to show that the snip and snipe there's no serious argument there rhetorical approach failed. Only, to find further mischaracterisation. The assertion X can ONLY be due to Y imposes a condition that is not appropriate. I have pointed out that as a matter of well known history in recent decades we have had a history of Y, which has set up a context in which X is common as a consequence. In particular, there is a scapegoating of Christians and the Christian faith in our time and civilisation because of generations of radical secularisation and consistently unbalanced hostile protrayals [--> such as we would not see today about Muslims, and many others . . . ], with sharp acceleration in the past 20 years or so. Do you deny the radical secularisation and hostility? Do you need for me to document further on it beyond sneers such as "ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked" "superstitious", "Bible thumping fundy," "Hitler was a Christian" [--> very relevant to the abuse of "denialism" that appears above . . . something more appropriate to the issue of Holocaust denial than debates on a scientific issue that believe it or not has two sides . . . ] and the like? Do you need for me to point out how mind-closing, heart-hardening prejudices are often established as conventional wisdom, creating stereotypical scapegoats? Do you need more than has already been linked to substantiate that contrary to the myth of "Right Wing Fundy would be tyrants and oppressors . . . ," Christians were in fact highly involved in the origins of modern liberty and democracy, acting based on the influence of their Biblical, Judaeo-Christian worldview and its tradition of social reformation?kairosfocus
January 13, 2015
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Not me. What I’m saying is that without an afterlife there can be no justice, there can be no meaning and if we are broken we are broken beyond repair.
I think one still could quibble with the fact that without an afterlife justice, meaning, and repair are logically impossible, but I think this is already pretty solid agreement.hrun0815
January 13, 2015
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Box @ 58 Be practical,once we are dead and buried, we are food for microbes.Period. That's all there is to life.Me_Think
January 13, 2015
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hrun0815: Who says that there has to be justice (beyond the justice we make for ourselves)? And who says that there has to be meaning (beyond the meaning we make for ourselves)? And who says that we are actually broken (..) ?
Not me. What I'm saying is that without an afterlife there can be no justice, there can be no meaning and if we are broken we are broken beyond repair.Box
January 13, 2015
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StephenB, I appreciate that you're thinking critically about how to determine the contours of natural law, but your suggestions don't seem actually objective (or at all practical). The easiest way to know that natural laws are objective is to break them and watch what happens. As Mark Frank pointed out, how do you know whether you're breaking them? Perhaps you mean that we should watch to see what behavior generates negative outcomes—but how do you determine whether an outcome is negative or positive, without resorting once again to subjective judgment? Moral truth is not hard to find… And yet it is virtually impossible to find two people who agree on what it is, in every case. Of course natural law could exist even without total agreement on every moral question, but it appears in practice that moral truth is actually quite hard to define for all people at all times. It seems, for example, quite easy to agree that killing and rape are wrong. But the warriors of the camp of Shiloh would seem to disagree; they supposedly killed all the men of the camp of Gilead and took the surviving young girls "as wives." Assuming arguendo that this event occurred as related in the book of Judges, the perpetrators probably believed quite sincerely that their conduct was justified. Any discussion about whether they were correct in that belief is going to quickly belie the notion that "moral truth is not hard to find." Humans tend to agree on basic moral principles, that is certainly true. But that observation is also completely compatible with a "materialistic worldview." After all, we live in a world populated by neighbors; we live more easily, and more securely, when we socialize ourselves and our children successfully. The problem is not that the objective moral code fails to contribute to human happiness, because, clearly, it does do that; the problem is that its application requires moral exertion and many there are who would prefer not to make the effort. I think you would agree that people can sincerely disagree about moral principles, since whether or not a core natural law exists it obviously doesn't resolve every moral question unambiguously. Assuming someone commits an immoral act, how would you determine whether they are someone who "would prefer not to make the effort" and someone who just sincerely disagrees with you about the moral principle in question? It is the unwillingness to undergo the pain of moral transformation from what one is to what one ought to be that leads the subjectivist to deny objective morality and institute his own subjective morality, which is always convenient and always congenial with his inclinations. Preferring not to aim for the real moral target, he claims that no such moral target exists. This is, as Barry would say if his standards were truly objective, a "just so story." It's nothing more than a convenient assertion that people who disagree with you are weak and cowardly rather than sincere in their beliefs. That position may comfort you, but it leaves the dialog in an awkward place. I disagree (presumably) with many of your moral principles. It's not because I'm a coward, or a moral weakling, or a demonic agent of evil. I just disagree with you. People can, and do, disagree in good faith all the time. Ignoring that is a path to living comfortably in blindness, without ever really seeing, understanding or caring about your neighbors. One way to avoid the task of replacing bad habits with good habits is to deny the fact that bad habits even exist. This is the philosophy of moral subjectivists. This is your philosophy. This is obviously not a true statement. I am not aware of anyone who would say that there is nothing good or bad. Many people acknowledge that their standards for good and bad are subjective, but that is not the same thing as saying that there is no such standard. For the moral subjectivist, there is no such thing as “sweating blood” in an attempt to regulate one’s lower nature in order to do his the right thing—no real moral dilemmas to cause one anguish. For the subjectivist, there is no instinct that “ought” to be regulated or controlled. His whole enterprise is to construct an arbitrary moral code that will justify whatever he feels like doing. This, again, is a remarkably dehumanizing set of beliefs. You do not live in a jungle of wicked, amoral materialists who cannot distinguish between good and bad; perhaps you should try to have more conversations with people who disagree with you? You might find it instructive to do more listening and less denouncing. For example, I am a subjectivist. I believe that it is right and proper and moral to contribute to the arts. I have a moral dilemma, in that while reviewing my finances I realized that I did not give as much last year as I believe I should. I believe I should make a contribution this month in order to live in accordance with my beliefs; at the same time, my family is preparing for a move and trying to save money. I have a moral dilemma! It will take an effort on my part to look past my anticipation of the moving expenses and make an adequate contribution. You might object that giving to the arts is an objective moral imperative. What about giving to Planned Parenthood? I feel the same impetus to support their mission, and do so with a monthly contribution. I get nothing for it, neither swag nor recognition. I think this is the first time I've ever mentioned it to anyone. When money is tight, as it has been these last couple years as my partner finishes her post-doc, it's tempting to cancel that auto-payment. I don't, for moral reasons that I doubt you or Barry would support. And yet, as a subjectivist, I have to weigh my desire for more money against my desire to behave morally. Even subjectivists weigh their selfish desires against their moral beliefs. Assuming that we don't—that we don't recognize any "ought" at all—suggests that you have a conveniently cheap mental model of what it's like to be someone other than StephenB. Other people exist. Even when we don't agree with you, we have full, rounded lives that come complete with moral beliefs and struggles.Learned Hand
January 13, 2015
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Box @ 55,
On the one hand these guys believe in the multiverse, but on the other hand they worry that the present universe is too small to accomodate the afterlife.
If you agree every space is habitable for carbon based forms, we need not worry.Me_Think
January 13, 2015
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Me_think: There can be no afterlife because we will quickly run out of space, food, water, clothing and shelter if God accommodates everyone who dies.
On the one hand these guys believe in the multiverse, but on the other hand they worry that the present universe is too small to accomodate the afterlife.Box
January 13, 2015
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Without afterlife there can be no justice. Without afterlife there can be no meaning for our earthly existence.
Who says that there has to be justice (beyond the justice we make for ourselves)? And who says that there has to be meaning (beyond the meaning we make for ourselves)? And who says that we are actually broken (assuming you are using the term broken to mean 'not functioning properly; out of working order). Or do you share BA's opinion that:
Denying the awareness exists does no good. It is there. It is glaring. It stares each of us in the face every day. Denying it is foolish because such a denial is not only false; it is obviously false and convinces no one.
hrun0815
January 13, 2015
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Box @ 51
Without afterlife there can be no justice. Without afterlife there can be no meaning for our earthly existence.
You don't need after-life to justify your existence. Just help people around you in whatever way you can, that's a good reason for [y]our existence.Me_Think
January 13, 2015
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Me_Think, in your description I would agree. What you describe sounds more like condemned souls forever sentences to haunt the living. And yes, some people say that we'd be formless and shapeless and simply in a state of love and happiness. That sounds to me like what you describe plus the administration of powerful opiates at a regular schedule. That does not make it more appealing to me. In fact, I think the only way the afterlife could be made appealing to me is if it would mimic much of regular life. But I don't think that's how people generally think of the afterlife. But I am hoping that somebody could inform me what they actually think. Anyway, the inability to imagine an appealing after-life is what would drive me to chose not afterlife over afterlife if given the choice.hrun0815
January 13, 2015
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I know a few things about the afterlife: Without afterlife there can be no justice. Without afterlife there can be no meaning for our earthly existence. In short: without afterlife there is no outlook of becoming 'unbroken'.Box
January 13, 2015
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hrun0815,
my guess is that most imagine an afterlife that does not require food, water, clothing, or shelter. Probably not even space.
I want someone to flesh out 'afterlife'. No one has an idea of the form in which people will live in 'after-life'. If we would have no structure in after-life, how would a person move around etc. The imagination of spirit's 'form' is a Hollywood derivative, we can't float around and go through walls and 'live' in formless state. I don't think there is after life. One life is enough for me.Me_Think
January 13, 2015
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Me_Think, my guess is that most imagine an afterlife that does not require food, water, clothing, or shelter. Probably not even space. But that leaves me with my original question: What DO you/they think the afterlife is actually like? What do we do?hrun0815
January 13, 2015
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There can be no afterlife because we will quickly run out of space, food, water, clothing and shelter if God accommodates everyone who dies.Me_Think
January 13, 2015
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Ok hrun0815, so you can be chalked down as being fine with the destruction arrangement, because you don’t know what is in store.
I thought I was being extremely clear and forthright. You asked a hypothetical questions and I wanted to get clarity of what you mean before giving an answer. Just like you wanted to learn something about the people you are wanting to hear an answer from, I wanted to learn something about you. In any case, if you don't want to speculate, then I'll give you an answer with the caveat that I can only base it on my imagination of an afterlife: You are correct. You can put me down in the 'being fine with that'-camp. There is no afterlife I can imagine that would not ultimately make me desperate to escape it. Without the certainty of that option I'd probably chose not to have an afterlife.hrun0815
January 13, 2015
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I am broken. I am not alone though. You are broken too.
We are all broke. Good for Barry Arrington's mortgage business :-)Me_Think
January 13, 2015
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Ok hrun0815, so you can be chalked down as being fine with the destruction arrangement, because you don't know what is in store.Box
January 13, 2015
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Great, I will be using that to combat the pushing evolutionism in public schools’ science classrooms.
Go for it, Joe. Let us know how this works out for you.hrun0815
January 13, 2015
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I have to be on to the next thing but I think a little context will help
Thank you for providing much more context. I don't really think it is necessary though. I perfectly understood when you wrote that
[you are] amazed that the mere presentation of an argument is being viewed as “imposition.”
and this could only be because
of generations of indoctrination that has cast the Judaeo-Christian view and its adherents as to blame for the ills of our civilisation, typifying Christianity by the worst that can be dredged up.
However, it is amazing how even better argued your insertions are in comparison to Barry (sorry BA). You manage to insert even more declarative statements and number them, too. In addition you manage to insert little arrows that indicate to the reader that your declarative statements actually follow from the preceding text. Now nobody in their right mind has an excuse anymore to refuse acceptance of the tenor of the OP.hrun0815
January 13, 2015
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hrun:
The only thing to combat indoctrination and polarization by one-sided litany are well-reasoned arguments like:
Great, I will be using that to combat the pushing evolutionism in public schools' science classrooms.Joe
January 13, 2015
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Of course I do not know.
No, of course not. But you are asking a hypothetical question by basing it on something we also do not know:
Let’s suppose for the sake of argument that afterlife is reality.
So go ahead and speculate. What do you think we'd be doing (for eternity?) in our afterlife? Obviously, for me this would determine if I'd chose it or not, right?hrun0815
January 13, 2015
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HR I have to be on to the next thing but I think a little context will help: >> I am broken. I am not alone though. You are broken too. In fact, the whole world and everyone in it is broken. We recognize that there is the way things are and there is the way things should be and the two are not the same.>> 1 --> IS-OUGHT gap, personally experienced form, starting with BA's own life experience. >>What shall we make of this universal awareness of our own brokenness in particular and the world’s brokenness in general? >> 2 --> focal challenge > >Denying the awareness exists does no good. It is there. It is glaring. It stares each of us in the face every day. Denying it is foolish because such a denial is not only false; it is obviously false and convinces no one.>> 3 --> It is futile to deny a commonplace fact of experience >>So there it is; our awareness of our and the world’s brokenness. It exists and any thinking person must try to account for its existence. It cannot be ignored.>> 4 --> First conclusion, we have to face it >> How did that awareness come to be? Is the awareness based on something real or is it an illusion?>> 5 --> If conscience is illusion, if the moral sense is not real, a major facet of conscious mindedness is a Plato's Cave world, opening up all the absurdities of that, cf my discussion here 6 --> If conscience speaks truly, as outlined above, we live in a world where the foundations have an IS that grounds OUGHT. >>For Jews and Christians, of course, these are easy questions. We believe in a transcendent moral standard rooted in God’s character. God has not established the Good. He is the Good, and all goodness flows from him.>> 7 --> The only serious candidate, across centuries, is the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being. Classic declaration, US DOI 1776. 8 --> I disagree with BA that the answer is in reality "easy," but it is not absurd regardless of thorny difficulties inevitable with worldviews and movements with a real world history >> Each of us (whether we say we believe in God or not) innately understands that Goodness exists and that we all fall short of measuring up to it. >> 9 --> Conscience, unless warped or silenced, speaks. >> I don’t understand why the doctrine of original sin is so controversial. Of all the doctrines of Christianity, it is the one that is supported by what I would think to be undeniable empirical evidence based on our own personal day-to-day experience and thousands of years of recorded history.>> 10 --> I would focus on "for all have sinned and fall short . . . " rather than a specific and debatable terminology. 11 --> For this, just read a week's newspapers. >>For the materialist, however, it seems to me that the question is all but unanswerable.>> 12 --> An issue since Plato in The Laws Bk X, evolutionary materialism reduces to might and manipulation make 'right' 'rights' truth' 'knowledge' etc >> At least since Hume we have known that “ought” cannot be grounded in “is.” The materialist believes that “is” is all there is. It follows there is nothing on which to ground “ought.”>> 13 --> I would rephrase on terms that I outlined above. Ought has to be there in the roots of being inextricable from a world foundational IS. 14 --> Evolutionary materialism, does not have such an IS. Dirt, stellar fusion furnaces, or energetic quantum vacuums with fluctuations do not answer to ought. >> This is what Dawkins means when he says there is no good and no bad.>> 15 --> Alludes to a famous statement in one of his books, also published in Sci Am. >> On materialist premises – if there really is no good and no bad — there is no reason to believe I and the world are broken.>> 16 --> A startling contradiction to the world we experience, with nihilism staring us in the face. >> As Lewis famously said, a man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. And the materialist denies the existence of straight lines.>> 17 --> An analogy based on literary allusion and the experience of testing a wall for being plumb and true using a plumbline. Ultimately, Biblical, Amos. >> Yet that awareness of our own and the world’s brokenness persists nevertheless even for materialists. >> 18 --> The contradiction between the experienced reality and the import of a major scheme of thought. _______________ So, while compressed and while we may quibble on a point or two, much more than the out of context strawmannised snippet. Later, if/when writer's block strikes in drafting a short-order speech. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2015
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hrun0815: What do you do in the afterlife?
Of course I do not know.Box
January 13, 2015
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#35 Box As an atheist I would object. I may not believe in an afterlife but if I am wrong then on balance I would prefer to take advantage of it (depending a bit what actually happens - not so keen on being reincarnated as a caterpillar).Mark Frank
January 13, 2015
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Box asks:
My question for atheists is: do you object? Or are you fine with this arrangement, because “death” is in full accord with your preferred world view?
What do you mean with 'would you be fine with this arrangement'? You mean the general idea that there is an afterlife and atheists do not get to take part? If that is indeed what you mean then you are in a perfect position to answer one of my most pressing questions that I have for people who do believe in an afterlife. (And I need an answer to this before I can answer the question for obvious reasons.) What do you do in the afterlife? Do you hang out with your friends and family? Do you read books? Cook? Go out for dinner? Are there playgrounds? Amusement parks? Do you eat and drink? Do you get to do heroin? Watch TV? Do you get to sit on a cloud? Learn to play the harp? How exactly do you keep yourself busy in the afterlife? I realize that this sounds like a very glib question about something as profound as the afterlife. But rest assured that this is actually a serious inquiry. What do you actually do in the afterlife? And for how long?hrun0815
January 13, 2015
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Second, to pretend that the indoctrination and polarisation by one sided litany I protested above are not a real and material issue, is to enable scapegoating.
Yes, yes. I agree. The only thing to combat indoctrination and polarization by one-sided litany are well-reasoned arguments like:
Denying the awareness exists does no good. It is there. It is glaring. It stares each of us in the face every day. Denying it is foolish because such a denial is not only false; it is obviously false and convinces no one.
I couldn't agree more that this "should give you — and all of us — sobering pause".hrun0815
January 13, 2015
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Atheists, Let's suppose for the sake of argument that afterlife is reality. However not so for atheists: they are being destroyed at the moment of death.
2 Peter 2:12 – International Standard Version 12 “These people, like irrational animals, are mere creatures of instinct that are born to be caught and killed. They insult what they don’t understand, and like animals they, too, will be destroyed, . . ”
My question for atheists is: do you object? Or are you fine with this arrangement, because "death" is in full accord with your preferred world view?Box
January 13, 2015
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HR, pardon but snipping two distinct things out of their contexts to set up and knock over a strawman, fails. I would think that the hard realities of common moral struggle and failure confront us day by day. Ought is not is, and we know it the hard way; indeed in trying to show both BA and the undersigned in the wrong, you imply just that. To try to deny or dismiss or caricature that is absurd. Second, to pretend that the indoctrination and polarisation by one sided litany I protested above are not a real and material issue, is to enable scapegoating. Which, should give you -- and all of us -- sobering pause. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2015
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F/N: Locke, in the introduction, section 5 of his essay on human understanding:
Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 - 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 - 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 - 2 & 13, Ac 17, Jn 3:19 - 21, Eph 4:17 - 24, Isaiah 5:18 & 20 - 21, Jer. 2:13, Titus 2:11 - 14 etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 - 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly. [Text references added to document the sources of Locke's allusions and citations.]
KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2015
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