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Not Unbroken

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I am broken.

I am not alone though.  You are broken too.  In fact, the whole world and everyone in it is broken.  We recognize that there is the way things are and there is the way things should be and the two are not the same.

What shall we make of this universal awareness of our own brokenness in particular and the world’s brokenness in general?  Denying the awareness exists does no good.  It is there.  It is glaring.  It stares each of us in the face every day.  Denying it is foolish because such a denial is not only false; it is obviously false and convinces no one.

So there it is; our awareness of our and the world’s brokenness.  It exists and any thinking person must try to account for its existence.  It cannot be ignored.  How did that awareness come to be?  Is the awareness based on something real or is it an illusion?

For Jews and Christians, of course, these are easy questions.  We believe in a transcendent moral standard rooted in God’s character.  God has not established the Good.  He is the Good, and all goodness flows from him.  Each of us (whether we say we believe in God or not) innately understands that Goodness exists and that we all fall short of measuring up to it.  I don’t understand why the doctrine of original sin is so controversial.  Of all the doctrines of Christianity, it is the one that is supported by what I would think to be undeniable empirical evidence based on our own personal day-to-day experience and thousands of years of recorded history.

For the materialist, however, it seems to me that the question is all but unanswerable.  At least since Hume we have known that “ought” cannot be grounded in “is.”  The materialist believes that “is” is all there is.  It follows there is nothing on which to ground “ought.”  This is what Dawkins means when he says there is no good and no bad.  On materialist premises – if there really is no good and no bad — there is no reason to believe I and the world are broken.  As Lewis famously said, a man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.  And the materialist denies the existence of straight lines.

Yet that awareness of our own and the world’s brokenness persists nevertheless even for materialists.  The standard Darwinist line, of course, is that the moral impulse is an evolutionary adaptation, and they delight in making up just so stories about why this or that altruistic behavior is adaptive, when they are not making up stories for why the opposite of that behavior is also adaptive.  Altruism is adaptive.  Sure.  But so is rape and murder.  Hmmm.

But when it comes to our awareness of our and the world’s brokenness, none of those stories matters.  We are not talking about individual behaviors that may or may not have been adaptive in the remote evolutionary past.  We are talking about the fact that we all know that a straight line exists and therefore we can call crooked lines crooked, even when we deny knowing any such thing.  I suppose some Darwinist will be able to make up a just so story to explain why this is the case; after all the Darwinist capacity for story telling seems to be limitless.  But I doubt any such story will convince anyone who is not already convinced.  For those of us who are unable to muster the tremendous leaps of faith necessary to become and remain a materialist, the story is likely to be implausible to say the least.

Comments
F/N: Overnight, I am amazed that the mere presentation of an argument is being viewed as “imposition.”
Yes KF. I'm also baffled that nobody takes BAs "presentation of an argument" as a starting point for serious discussion. Do arguments ever get more clear and well-reasoned than this:
Denying the awareness exists does no good. It is there. It is glaring. It stares each of us in the face every day. Denying it is foolish because such a denial is not only false; it is obviously false and convinces no one.
And of course you are right that this has to be because
of generations of indoctrination that has cast the Judaeo-Christian view and its adherents as to blame for the ills of our civilisation, typifying Christianity by the worst that can be dredged up.
It could not possibly be because BA strung together a few declarative statements, asserted that everybody who disagrees with them is willfully ignorant, or stupid, or both, and then everybody pretended that he actually made an argument.hrun0815
January 13, 2015
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StephenB
The easiest way to know that natural laws are objective is to break them and watch what happens
But if you don't know what they are, how do you know you are breaking them?Mark Frank
January 13, 2015
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dionisio What do you mean by “evil“? A god who uses evil to accomplish his goals, for instance the God of the gunmen of Paris. But probably any God would provide undeniable empirical evidence of His existence based on human experience and historyvelikovskys
January 13, 2015
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SB, sadly, all too close to home. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2015
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F/N: It should be patent to all that the evolutionary materialist IS is what lies under the sun and is evident to our senses and instruments: matter, energy, space, time, and extensions (these days under the name, multiverse) which they equal to reality. Indeed, that contention is written into the heart of such views. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2015
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F/N: Overnight, I am amazed that the mere presentation of an argument is being viewed as "imposition." This clearly speaks to the effect of generations of indoctrination that has cast the Judaeo-Christian view and its adherents as to blame for the ills of our civilisation, typifying Christianity by the worst that can be dredged up. And, to a widespread policy of refusing to acknowledge the good that the faith and its adherents have done across time and down to today. Indeed, under doctrine of separation of church and effectively everything, a reasonably balanced and well informed view of the contribution of the Judaeo-Christian tradition to our civilisaiton has been effectively written out of history, civics and much more. (Cf here, again, for a 101 level sampler.) The resulting one-sided litany of accusation is deeply wrong, a manifestation of hostility and in too many cases, outright bigotry. I think a fairer view of history and the rise of modern democracy would bring out a few points in balance to the usual current conventional wisdom, inter alia:
1: power is inherently dangerous, and power without effective accountability strongly tends to be corrupt and destructive so power requires reasonable and effective safeguards . . . which, historically, have taken centuries to work out 2: self reflection and observation today and across time and culture will show that we all face being finite, fallible, morally struggling, and too often ill-willed (This is a big slice of what BA spoke to when he spoke of the doctrine of human fallenness.) 3: When the Bible was put in the hands of the ordinary man (and he received a basic education to read it and other books and eventually newspapers etc), and hitherto unaccountable leaders were forced to respond as a result, the resulting struggles for liberty of conscience, over centuries, made a major contribution to the rise of modern liberty and democracy 4: Such patterns may especially be traced in key writings and state papers across the 1500's - 1800's, including the Dutch Declaration of Independence of 1581 (including the Vindiciae which directly influenced it), the spate of documents surrounding the Glorious Revolution of 1688 (especially Rutherford and Locke), and key papers of the US Revolution from 1776 - 87; also, in the struggle to end slavery starting with its iniquitous trade. (In this, it is noteworthy but often overlooked that the motto of antislavery societies came straight out of the text of Philemon in the NT, a prison letter of Paul appealing for manumission of Onesimus, and escaped slave: Am I not a man and a brother? [Think of the diplomatic balance Paul had to strike in a context where his correspondence would indubitably have been a target for hostile scrutiny and an excuse to put him to death as a subversive.]) 5: The success of the American experiment over the next 100 years then led to the spreading of modern democratic ideals and systems far and wide 6: In this process, the moral influence of the Christian faith and especially the teachings of Jesus played a major though obviously not exclusive role; despite many grave wrongs and stubborn controversies in which the problem of the fallacy of the closed, hostile and suspicious mind and linked hard heart was a major issue:
Eph 4:17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self,[f] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. [ESV]
7: Historically, reformation is usually much slower than revolution, but on the whole revolutions tend to be bloodily high risk and too often end in tyranny 8: On the whole, history's lessons were paid for in blood and tears, and so if we are to avoid paying much the same price again, it would be wise for us to soundly study and learn them
Further, adherents of or fellow travellers with evolutionary materialism need to realise that their sense that "Science" so-called has cornered the market on knowledge and truth is not science proper but Scientism, which is inherently self-refuting -- the claim that "science" delimits significant knowledge is itself an epistemological (thus, philosophical) claim not a scientific one. Nor, has science succeeded in dismissing God as a mere myth; instead, as Lewontin notoriously acknowledged, it is an ideological a priori, a demand of evolutionary materialism. Finally, such materialists and fellow travellers need to take seriously the true force of the IS-OUGHT gap issue. For either morality and our being under moral government of the principle of OUGHT are a delusion (which, as this is a major facet of our world of thought, would point to the utter untrustworthiness of our conscious mindedness) or else our being under the government of OUGHT starting with the testimony of conscience and our sense of the repulsiveness of evil when we suffer its effects, is real. Which points to a world in which reality will have a foundation in an IS who properly grounds OUGHT. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2015
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Mark Frank - "It might be a good idea to define what Hume meant by “is”, and what Barry thinks materialists mean by “is”? Otherwise the argument is invalid (although Barry might then accuse me of using a Darwinist Debating Device). Maybe Barry will come back and define what he meant by "is". I was assuming he meant the in his religious belief that he looks to the future apart from this present life on Earth and materialists belief is that this life now is all there "is". This is why I don't normally participate in these rough and round definition debates with both sides. I just don't generally have the time and interest and they never seem to go anywhere.DavidD
January 13, 2015
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Learned Hand,
The problem with your proclamations is that they suffer from the same structural flaw that has always kept natural law arguments from supporting their own weight. Ultimately they’re nothing more than an elaborate way to say, “I strongly feel this to be true!” But since those feelings have every appearance of being subjective—they vary from person to person, people change their minds about them, and there is no way to determine which perspective is right without falling back on the standard tools of subjective discourse—it becomes an arbitrarily difficult task to suss out what natural law really is. There is a reason that successful civil societies are governed by temporal laws rather than revelatory proclamations.
The easiest way to know that natural laws are objective is to break them and watch what happens. The consequences of breaking moral laws are just as certain as the consequences of breaking physical laws. Moral truth is not hard to find, it is hard to face—harder yet to follow. The problem is not that the objective moral code fails to contribute to human happiness, because, clearly, it does do that; the problem is that its application requires moral exertion and many there are who would prefer not to make the effort. It is the unwillingness to undergo the pain of moral transformation from what one is to what one ought to be that leads the subjectivist to deny objective morality and institute his own subjective morality, which is always convenient and always congenial with his inclinations. Preferring not to aim for the real moral target, he claims that no such moral target exists. Thus, he demands the freedom to create his own moral standard. A man who doesn’t conform his behavior to the external moral code will always find an internal moral code that conforms to his behavior. One way to avoid the task of replacing bad habits with good habits is to deny the fact that bad habits even exist. This is the philosophy of moral subjectivists. This is your philosophy. For the moral subjectivist, there is no such thing as “sweating blood” in an attempt to regulate one’s lower nature in order to do his the right thing—no real moral dilemmas to cause one anguish. For the subjectivist, there is no instinct that “ought” to be regulated or controlled. His whole enterprise is to construct an arbitrary moral code that will justify whatever he feels like doing. Naturally, his morality will be built around his vices even as it denies that such vices exist. When called to account, the subjectivist pretends not to know what he does, in fact, know--that an objective standard for morality really does exist. It's all part of being "broken." As Barry says, we are all in that same condition. Fortunately, we do not have to remain that way.StephenB
January 13, 2015
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#23 DavidD
Is this one of those it depends on what your definition of “Is” is ?
So when Barry argues:
At least since Hume we have known that “ought” cannot be grounded in “is.” The materialist believes that “is” is all there is. It follows there is nothing on which to ground “ought.”
It might be a good idea to define what Hume meant by "is", and what Barry thinks materialists mean by "is"? Otherwise the argument is invalid (although Barry might then accuse me of using a Darwinist Debating Device).Mark Frank
January 13, 2015
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Mark Frank - "So the theist believes that all there is not all there is????" Is this one of those it depends on what your definition of "Is" is ? For example, is this life all there is ?DavidD
January 13, 2015
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DavidD
The materialist believes that “is” is all there is.
So the theist believes that all there is not all there is????Mark Frank
January 13, 2015
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Barry Arrington "For the materialist, however, it seems to me that the question is all but unanswerable. At least since Hume we have known that “ought” cannot be grounded in “is.” The materialist believes that “is” is all there is. It follows there is nothing on which to ground “ought.” This is what Dawkins means when he says there is no good and no bad. On materialist premises – if there really is no good and no bad — there is no reason to believe I and the world are broken. As Lewis famously said, a man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. And the materialist denies the existence of straight lines." *************** I always found this scriptural text summed up the materialist quite well in explaining and defining their attitude. The truly sad thing is, most probably would wear this description below as a badge of honor since they view themselves and fellow human beings as nothing more than animals anyway. 2 Peter 2:12 - International Standard Version 12 "These people, like irrational animals, are mere creatures of instinct that are born to be caught and killed. They insult what they don’t understand, and like animals they, too, will be destroyed, . . " -------------- Velikovskys - "An evil God would explain human history just as well" ********* Correct. And here is a verse that backs up your claim of an evil god explaining his version of history. 2 Corinthians 4:4 - Amplified Bible 4 "For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers’ minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image and Likeness of God" Interestingly, in " Corinthians chapter 3, the unfaithful Israelites whom Moses dealt with were compared to fleshly materialists who lacked any spirituality. In complaining about the glowing rays which emitted from Moses face and their request that he place a veil over it and read what God said to them later, the account goes on to describe where the veil truly lay, not across Moses face, but their hearts. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 - Amplified Bible 13 "Nor [do we act] like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze upon the finish of the vanishing [splendor which had been upon it]." 14 "In fact, their minds were grown hard and calloused [they had become dull and had lost the power of understanding]; for until this present day, when the Old Testament (the old covenant) is being read, that same veil still lies [on their hearts], not being lifted to reveal that in Christ it is made void and done away." 15 "Yes, down to this [very] day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their minds and hearts." With the proper use of free will, they all have the power to remove the veil. But then that's where " Corinthians 4:4 comes into play. Obedience to the god of this world and rather believing his version of history. --------- Graham2 - "Barry: You really are in your element, aren’t you … imposing your views on others." Then why did you use your free will to come here into Barry's house as an invited guest, but then proceed to offer nothing but derogatory insults and belligerence ? You also have the freewill to leave and never come back if you don't like it. -DavidD
January 13, 2015
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BA
You didn’t actually attempt to refute (far less refute) a single thing I said
Barry – when your case begins:
Denying it is foolish because such a denial is not only false; it is obviously false and convinces no one.
And someone disagrees  …. then it is pointless to try and refute you and more relevant to point out what you are up to (declaring you are obviously right and anyone who disagrees is obviously a fool).Mark Frank
January 13, 2015
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BA, A mishmash of ad hominem and tu quoque does not an argument make. What ad hominem comment are you referring to? If you mean my observation that you don't seem to put much effort into understanding the perspectives of others, that is not a fallacious response to your post; you aren't wrong because you don't understand how other people think, your pontificating simply reflects an extremely casual approach towards modeling other worldviews. The problem with your proclamations is that they suffer from the same structural flaw that has always kept natural law arguments from supporting their own weight. Ultimately they're nothing more than an elaborate way to say, "I strongly feel this to be true!" But since those feelings have every appearance of being subjective—they vary from person to person, people change their minds about them, and there is no way to determine which perspective is right without falling back on the standard tools of subjective discourse—it becomes an arbitrarily difficult task to suss out what natural law really is. There is a reason that successful civil societies are governed by temporal laws rather than revelatory proclamations. And so, despite your attempt to dismiss the point, it remains: your straight line is as much an attempt to "make up a just so story" as your imaginary (and conveniently ineloquent) "Darwinian" opponent's position. Without an actual, objective standard that can be actually, objectively determined, you're just as much a subjectivist as the rest of us. After all, there's no way to tell if your line is straighter than any other, if there's no way to objectively determine reference points.Learned Hand
January 12, 2015
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I'm not sure, does this mean if all the world thought, as Christians and Jews thought, the 'straight line' would appear. Wouldn't it simply lead to the two remaining groups vying for ultimate control? Via evolutionary prediction? Wouldn't the winner then split into further smaller groups within their belief system, some more toward the Book, some more toward humanism, thus leading to further conflict? Isn't that where we are now? Or, is the point more simple; my thought is the right thought, accept it!rvb8
January 12, 2015
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Barry writes:
It stares each of us in the face every day. Denying it is foolish because such a denial is not only false; it is obviously false and convinces no one.
It exists and any thinking person must try to account for its existence. It cannot be ignored.
Of all the doctrines of Christianity, it is the one that is supported by what I would think to be undeniable empirical evidence based on our own personal day-to-day experience and thousands of years of recorded histor
Of course there are no post that disagree with you here. Everybody who disagrees is foolish, in denial, an unthinking person, and ignores undeniable empirical evidence. PS: There is no need to point out that I did not attempt any counter argument against your well-reasoned out and argued post. You can assume that this means that I am in full agreement with you... and I am certain that most everybody will too if they'd only read your post often enough.hrun0815
January 12, 2015
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#4 velikovskys
An evil God would explain human history just as well
What do you mean by "evil"?Dionisio
January 12, 2015
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Barry: You really are in your element, aren't you ... imposing your views on others.Graham2
January 12, 2015
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AS, you may find a key root of your secular democracy in Locke, in his 2nd essay on civil govt ch 2 sec. 5, where he quotes "the judicious [Anglican canon Richard] Hooker," thusly:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
Hooker's underlying reference of course was the Golden Rule of neighbour-love, which I find Paul has aptly put in the context of citizenship:
Rom 13:8 Keep out of debt and owe no man anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor [who practices loving others] has fulfilled the Law [relating to one’s fellowmen, meeting all its requirements]. 9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet (have an evil desire), and any other commandment, are summed up in the single command, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. 10 Love does no wrong to one’s neighbor [it never hurts anybody]. Therefore love meets all the requirements and is the fulfilling of the Law. [AMP]
KF PS, Those interested in the deep but often overlooked -- or even suppressed or angrily dismissed -- Judaeo-Christian roots of modern liberty and democracy may wish to look here for a 101.kairosfocus
January 12, 2015
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BA, I notice you make a point about the inability to ground OUGHT in IS. I think Hume's objection has a point, but with a subtle twist. It points to the only place where a foundation for OUGHT may be found, the root of reality. Nothing, non-being cannot ground anything, nor can an infinite regress, nor can going in circles, nor can blind combinations of matter, energy, space and time etc, so we must look to something, an IS that at the same time can ground ought, due to an intrinsic aspect of the core nature of that IS. A world-root IS that is at the same time inherently, inextricably the basis of OUGHT. There is, after centuries of debate, precisely one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator-God, who is a necessary and maximally great being. Precisely, where many today utterly -- and often angrily or snidely -- refuse to look. But that brings out the force of Proverbs 1:
1 The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel: 2 To know wisdom and instruction, to understand words of insight, 3 to receive instruction in wise dealing, in righteousness, justice, and equity; 4 to give prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the youth— 5 Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance, 6 to understand a proverb and a saying, the words of the wise and their riddles. 7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction . . .
KF PS: The interested onlooker may wish to read here in context, where I develop this in a bit more details. Including, why I believe the tendency to dismiss OUGHT as delusion or illusion or merely subjective preference, fails.kairosfocus
January 12, 2015
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F/N: Pardon a bit of an aside. I find that those of hyper-skeptical bent often talk a lot (usually in a very dismissive way pointed at others . . . ) about the so-called Dunning-Kruger effect . . . cf 5 above, and yes AS this answers to that loaded remark you made. I think a lesson or two from Solomon of old on those who are ill-advisedly wise in their own eyes (and thus quite resistant to correction) should be a corrective:
Prov 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction . . . . 29 [Wisdom personified speaks:] Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord, 30 would have none of my counsel and despised all my reproof, 31 therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way, and have their fill of their own devices. 32 For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacency of fools destroys them; 33 but whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease, without dread of disaster.” Prov 12:15 The way of a fool is right [or, wise] in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice. Prov 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes . . . . 12 Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.
Ours is now a civilisation that too often is wise in its own eyes and deaf to well-merited correction, even as it leads over the cliffs of folly. Hence, my fundamental pessimism about our time. KF PS: Prov 26 has a famous couplet on when it is right to answer or not to answer a fool according to his folly. I judge, to correct self-delusion, it is time to answer to the projection of ignorance, stupidity, insanity and evil en bloc to those who beg to differ with a priori evolutionary materialism. Which, ironically, inescapably undermines even reason and knowledge itself, as may be seen in classically short form from J B S Haldane:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
kairosfocus
January 12, 2015
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AS:
The best to hope for is a forum to discuss and argue points of view without rancor.
Also AS:
[Barry is a] climate change denialist, gung-ho right wing conservative fundamentalist Christian supremacist, . . .
See “Whitman” @ 9. I suspect you are not even aware of your hypocrisy.Barry Arrington
January 12, 2015
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BA:
We recognize that there is the way things are and there is the way things should be and the two are not the same.
AS:
I don’t think that is true at all.
AS:
I agree with how things are is unsatisfactory.
I suspect you are a fan of Whitman (“Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes.”) On the other hand, it is clear that dialogue with you will be fruitless. Bu byeBarry Arrington
January 12, 2015
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AS @ 7 Hi As, I would not describe myself as a "climate change denialist, gung-ho right wing conservative fundamentalist Christian supremacist" but I am a Christian. Not only don't I think I am superior it's quit the opposite, I'm faulty but forgiven. Seems to me that calling someone a "climate change denialist, gung-ho right wing conservative fundamentalist Christian supremacist" is not a good way to start a forum to discuss and argue points of view without rancour.Cross
January 12, 2015
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AS @ 5: "I don’t think that is true at all." "The only sensible way for people of disparate political and religious views to live and work together . . ." Work together for what end AS? If things are the way they should be, it would seem the only appropriate end would be to maintain the status quo. I don't think you thought this one through. Go back and give 'er another go.Barry Arrington
January 12, 2015
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BA: Of all the doctrines of Christianity, it is the one that is supported by what I would think to be undeniable empirical evidence based on our own personal day-to-day experience and thousands of years of recorded history. An evil God would explain human history just as wellvelikovskys
January 12, 2015
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LH @ 1: Here’s the thing about your comment: You didn’t actually attempt to refute (far less refute) a single thing I said. Note to LH: A mishmash of ad hominem and tu quoque does not an argument make.Barry Arrington
January 12, 2015
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Barry We are talking about the fact that we all know that a straight line exists and therefore we can call crooked lines crooked, even when we deny knowing any such thing.
Taking it a bit farther, the fact that we have the very idea of a "straight line", whether we believe it exists or not, indicates that there really is a "straight line." Mirages and illusions cannot exist without the Real Thing existing as the source for the concept that the mirage is "pretending" to be. As Lewis said, in a universe where there are no beings with eyes, "sight" and "blindness" would be meaningless terms. Consciousness an illusion? An illusion of what? Morality an illusion? An illusion of what? Cultures have differed on the details of morality, such as slavery, women's rights, etc., and use various rationalizations for various behaviors, but they don't deny that it exists. The fact that people resort to rationalizations for certain behaviors indicates that the moral sense is more fundamental than reason. Sociopaths are apparently "blind" to morality. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The existence of visually blind people doesn't mean the rest of us cannot see the sun.mike1962
January 12, 2015
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I don’t understand why the doctrine of original sin is so controversial. Would you say that you put much effort into understanding the perspectives of others? We are talking about the fact that we all know that a straight line exists and therefore we can call crooked lines crooked, even when we deny knowing any such thing. The perpetual problem with natural law is that it's so hard to define that "straight line." Some people say the Bible exemplified perfect morality; others try to excuse or exempt Biblical examples of conduct that is immoral by modern lights. Some say capital punishment is moral, others disagree. Some people would say it would be moral to outlaw homosexuality, others disagree. I suppose some Darwinist will be able to make up a just so story to explain why this is the case; after all the Darwinist capacity for story telling seems to be limitless. But I doubt any such story will convince anyone who is not already convinced. I think it probably escapes you that you are describing yourself, as well. Your explanations that the controversial things you believe are self-evident and obvious to all people are just another kind of story, and of little value to anyone who doesn't already agree with you.Learned Hand
January 12, 2015
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