Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Now Jerry Coyne doubts the historical existence of Jesus Christ

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Jerry Coyne has written a post in which he states that he is inclined to believe that Jesus never existed, although he hasn’t made up his mind yet. And on what does Coyne base his tentative opinion? An article in the Huffington Post by a biopsychologist named Nigel Barber, a self-published book by a systems engineer, Michael Paulkovich, which Coyne admits he hasn’t read, and finally, another book which he hasn’t read, written by atheist activist Richard Carrier, who has a Ph.D. in ancient history, but who (judging from his Wikipedia biography) has no teaching or research position at any accredited institution. [Update: according to his C.V., Carrier teaches classes at the Center for Inquiry Institute Online (a think tank founded in 1987) using a Moodle interface, and is also an online instructor with Partners for Secular Activism. As far as I can tell, the only accredited program offered by CFI is an Ed.M. program in Science and the Public, in partnership with the Graduate School of Education of the University at Buffalo. However, Carrier does not teach this course.]

I wonder what Coyne would think of a critique of Darwin’s theory of evolution, written by a biopsychologist, a systems engineer and finally, a prominent evolution critic with a Ph.D. in biology, who had never taught the subject at any university. Not much, I think. I find it odd, then, that he is prepared to set aside the opinions of all reputable historians with relevant expertise in the field, on the question of whether Jesus existed.

Writes Coyne:

I have to say that I’m coming down on the “mythicist” side, simply because I don’t see any convincing historical records for a Jesus person. Everything written about him was decades after his death, and, as far as I can see, there is no contemporaneous record of a Jesus-person’s existence (what “records” exist have been debunked as forgeries). Yet there should have been some evidence, especially if Jesus had done what the Bible said. But even if he was simply an apocalyptic preacher, as [scholar Bart] Ehrman insists, there should have been at least a few contemporaneous records. Based on their complete absence, I am for the time being simply a Jesus agnostic. But I don’t pretend to be a scholar in this area, or even to have read a lot of the relevant literature.

Actually, we have excellent documentary evidence for the existence of Jesus from two historians writing in the first century: Josephus and Tacitus.

Josephus (A.D. 37 – c.100) may have been born a few years after the death of Jesus, but he was a personal eyewitness of the execution of Jesus’ brother, James (who may have actually been a half-brother or cousin of Jesus), in 62 A.D. As for Tacitus (c. 56 A.D. – 117 A.D.), he is considered to have been one of the greatest Roman historians, and as a Senator, he was likely to have had access to official Roman documents relating to Jesus’ trial, which took place about 80 years before he wrote his Annals, which states that Jesus was crucified during the reign of the Emperor Tiberius, and at the hands of the procurator, Pontius Pilate (Book 15, chapter 44).

The evidence from Josephus

Atheist Paul Tobin, creator of the skeptical Website The Rejection of Pascal’s Wager, has written an excellent article, The Death of James, in which he argues for the historical trustworthiness of Josephus’ description of the execution of James, whom he refers to as “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ”:

The timing of the incident, the interregnum between Festus and Albinus, allows us to date this quite accurately to the summer of 62 CE. [1] Our confidence in the historicity of this account is bolstered by the fact that it was probably an eye witness account. Josephus mentioned in his Autobiography that he left Jerusalem for Rome when he was twenty-six years old. He date of birth was most likely around 37 CE. So at the time of James’ execution, the twenty five year old Josephus was a priest in Jerusalem.

The atheist amateur historian Tim O’Neill has written several blog posts rebutting the arguments of modern-day skeptics who deny the historicity of Jesus. O’Neill has no theological ax to grind here: indeed, he declares that he “would have no problem at all embracing the idea that no historical Jesus existed if someone could come up with an argument for this that did not depend at every turn on strained readings.” O’Neill exposes the shoddy scholarship of these “Mythers” (as he calls them) in a savagely critical review of “Jesus-Myther” David Fitzgerald’s recent book, Nailed: Ten Christian Myths that Show Jesus Never Existed at All. In the course of his lengthy review (dated May 28, 2011), O’Neill summarizes the evidence for Jesus’ historicity from the works of Josephus (bold highlighting mine – VJT):

As several surveys of the academic literature have shown, the majority of scholars now accept that there was an original mention of Jesus in Antiquities XVIII.3.4 and this includes the majority of Jewish and non-Christian scholars, not merely “wishful apologists”. This is partly because once the more obvious interpolated phrases are removed, the passage reads precisely like what Josephus would be expected to write and also uses characteristic language found elsewhere in his works. But it is also because of the 1970 discovery of what seems to be a pre-interpolation version of Josephus’ passage, uncovered by Jewish scholar Schlomo Pines of Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

Professor Pines found an Arabic paraphrase of the Tenth Century historian Agapius which quotes Josephus’ passage, but not in the form we have it today. This version, which seems to draw on a copy of Josephus’ original, uninterpolated text, says that Jesus was believed by his followers to have been the Messiah and to have risen from the dead, which means in the original Josephus was simply reporting early Christian beliefs about Jesus regarding his supposed status and resurrection. This is backed further by a Syriac version cited by Michael the Syrian which also has the passage saying “he was believed to be the Messiah”. The evidence now stacks up heavily on the side of the partial authenticity of the passage, meaning there is a reference to Jesus as a historical person in precisely the writer we would expect to mention him…

The second mention is made in passing in a passage where Josephus is detailing an event of some significance and one which he, as a young man, would have witnessed himself.

In 62 AD, the 26 year old Josephus was in Jerusalem, having recently returned from an embassy to Rome. He was a young member of the aristocratic priestly elite which ruled Jerusalem and were effectively rulers of Judea, though with close Roman oversight and only with the backing of the Roman procurator in Caesarea. But in this year the procurator Porcius Festus died while in office and his replacement, Lucceius Albinus, was still on his way to Judea from Rome. This left the High Priest, Hanan ben Hanan (usually called Ananus), with a freer rein that usual. Ananus executed some Jews without Roman permission and, when this was brought to the attention of the Romans, Ananus was deposed.

This was a momentous event and one that the young Josephus, as a member of the same elite as the High Priest, would have remembered well. But what is significant is what he says in passing about the executions that that triggered the deposition of the High Priest:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so (the High Priest) assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Messiah, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.

…A major part of the problem with most manifestations of the Myther thesis is that its proponents desperately want it to be true because they want to undermine Christianity. And any historical analysis done with one eye on an emotionally-charged ideological agenda is usually heading for trouble from the start… Their biases against Christianity blind Mythers to the fact that they are not arriving at conclusions because they are the best or most parsimonious explanation of the evidence, but merely because they fit their agenda.

The overwhelming majority of scholars, Christian, non-Christian, atheist, agnostic or Jewish, accept there was a Jewish preacher as the point of origin for the Jesus story simply because that makes the most sense of all the evidence. The contorted and contrived lengths that Fitzgerald and his ilk have to resort to shows exactly how hard it is to sustain the idea that no such historical preacher existed. Personally, as an atheist amateur historian myself, I would have no problem at all embracing the idea that no historical Jesus existed if someone could come up with an argument for this that did not depend at every turn on strained readings, ad hoc explanations, imagined textual interpolations and fanciful suppositions.

It is sometimes alleged by “Jesus-Mythers” such as David Fitzgerald that both passages in Josephus are later interpolations, because the third-century Christian Father Origen supposedly declared that Josephus made no mention of Jesus in his writings. O’Neill handily disposes of this canard:

Not content with ignoring inconvenient key counter-evidence, [Jesus-Myther] Fitzgerald is also happy to simply make things up.  He talks about how the Second Century Christian apologist Origen does not mention the Antiquities XVII.3.4 reference to Jesus (which is true, but not surprising) and then claims “Origen even quotes from Antiquities of the Jews in order to prove the historical existence of John the Baptist, then adds that Josephus didn’t believe in Jesus, and criticises him for failing to mention Jesus in that book!” (p. 53)  Which might sound like a good argument to anyone who does not bother to check self-published authors’ citations.  But those who do will turn to Origen’s Contra Celsum I.4 and find the following:

Now this writer [Josephus], although not believing in Jesus as the Messiah, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless-being, although against his will, not far from the truth-that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was  “the brother of that Jesus who was called Messiah”,–the Jews having put him to death, although he was a man most distinguished for his justice.

So Origen does not say Josephus “didn’t believe in Jesus”, just that he did not believe Jesus was the Messiah (which supports the Arabic and Syriac evidence on the pre-interpolation version of Antiquities XVII.3.4) And far from criticising Josephus “for failing to mention Jesus in that book”, Origen actually quotes Josephus directly doing exactly that – the phrase “αδελφος Ιησου του λεγομενου Χριστου” (the brother of that Jesus who was called Messiah”) is word for word the phrase used by Josephus in his other mention of Jesus, found at Antiquities XX.9.1.  And he does not refer to and quote Josephus mentioning Jesus just in Contra Celsum I.4, but he also does so twice more: in Contra Celsum II:13 and in Commentarium in evangelium Matthaei X.17.  It is hard to say if this nonsense claim of Fitzgerald’s is mere incompetence or simply a lie.  I will be charitable and put it down to another of this amateur’s bungles.

Tim O’Neill’s more recent online article, The Jesus Myth Theory: A Response to David Fitzgerald (December 1, 2013) is also well worth reading. It is a devastating take-down of the second-rate scholarship of Jesus-Mythers.

The evidence from the Roman historian Tacitus

Wikipedia provides a balanced overview of the evidence for Jesus’ historicity in its article, Tacitus on Christ, from which I have quoted the following excerpts:

Scholars generally consider Tacitus’s reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[5][6][7] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now “firmly established” that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[8]

In terms of an overall context, historian Ronald Mellor has stated that the Annals is “Tacitus’s crowning achievement” which represents the “pinnacle of Roman historical writing”.[9] The passage is also of historical value in establishing three separate facts about Rome around AD 60: (i) that there were a sizable number of Christians in Rome at the time, (ii) that it was possible to distinguish between Christians and Jews in Rome, and (iii) that at the time pagans made a connection between Christianity in Rome and its origin in Roman Judea.[10][11]…

…Scholars generally consider Tacitus’s reference to be genuine and of historical value as an independent Roman source about early Christianity that is in unison with other historical records.[5][6][7][41]

Van Voorst states that “of all Roman writers, Tacitus gives us the most precise information about Christ”.[40] John Dominic Crossan considers the passage important in establishing that Jesus existed and was crucified, and states: “That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus… agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact.”[52]

…Scholars have also debated the issue of hearsay in the reference by Tacitus. Charles Guignebert argued that “So long as there is that possibility [that Tacitus is merely echoing what Christians themselves were saying], the passage remains quite worthless”.[56] R. T. France states that the Tacitus passage is at best just Tacitus repeating what he had heard through Christians.[57] However, Paul R. Eddy has stated that as Rome’s preeminent historian, Tacitus was generally known for checking his sources and was not in the habit of reporting gossip.[23] Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote: “Tacitus’s report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius’s reign.”[58]

References

5. Jesus and His Contemporaries: Comparative Studies by Craig A. Evans. 2001. ISBN 0-391-04118-5 page 42.
6. Mercer Dictionary of the Bible by Watson E. Mills and Roger Aubrey Bullard. 2001. ISBN 0-86554-373-9 page 343.
7. Pontius Pilate in History and Interpretation by Helen K. Bond. 2004. ISBN 0-521-61620-4 page xi.
8. The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition by Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd. Baker Academic, 2007. ISBN 0-8010-3114-1 page 127.
9. Tacitus’ Annals by Ronald Mellor. Oxford University Press. 2010. ISBN 0-19-515192-5 page 23.
10. Beginning from Jerusalem by James D. G. Dunn. William. B. Eerdmans, 2008. ISBN 0-8028-3932-0 pages 56-57.
11. Antioch and Rome: New Testament cradles of Catholic Christianity by Raymond Edward Brown, John P. Meier 1983. ISBN 0-8091-2532-3 page 99.
23. The Jesus legend: a case for the historical reliability of the synoptic gospels by Paul R. Eddy, et al. 2007. ISBN 0-8010-3114-1 pages 181-183.
40. Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence by Robert E. Van Voorst. William. B. Eerdmans, 2000. pp. 39- 53.
41. Tradition and Incarnation: Foundations of Christian Theology by William L. Portier 1993 ISBN 0-8091-3467-5 page 263.
52. Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography by John Dominic Crossan. HarperOne, 1995. ISBN 0-06-061662-8 page 145.
53. Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament by F.F. Bruce. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974. p. 23.
56. Jesus by Charles Guignebert. University Books, New York, 1956, p. 13.
57. France, RT (1986). Evidence for Jesus (Jesus Library). Trafalgar Square Publishing. pp. 19-20. ISBN 0-340-38172-8.
58. Ehrman p. 212

Who is Michael Paulkovich, anyway?

Michael Paulkovich, a systems engineer, is the recent author of a book called No Meek Messiah, excerpts from which can be found on this Web page. The following excerpts should put to rest any notion that Paulkovich has any credibility on historical matters (emphases are mine):

In No Meek Messiah I provide a list of 126 writers who should have recorded something of Jesus, with exhaustive references… [I was most amused to see Apollonius of Tyana, Epictetus, Petronius, Plotinus and Tiberius described as “historians” in Paulkovich’s list – VJT.]

Within a year after the decree by [Emperor] Theodosius [in 391 A.D.], crazed Christian monks of Nitria destroy the majestic Alexandrian Library largely because philosophy and science are taught there — not the Bible…

Christianity was made the only legal cult of the empire, and for the next 1500 years, good Christians would murder all non-Christians they could find by the tens of millions.

Early Christians believed all necessary knowledge was in the Bible and thus closed down schools, burned books, forbade teaching philosophy and destroyed libraries. The Jesus person portrayed in the Bible taught that “devils” and “sin” cause illness, and thus for some 1700 years good Christians ignored science and medicine to perform exorcisms on the ill…

Jesus has nothing against stealing, as he instructs his apostles to pinch a horse and a donkey from their rightful owner…

This Jesus character speaks highly of father Yahweh’s genocidal tantrums in Matthew 11:20-24…

Enough said?

Summary

People who are experts in one field are capable of appalling lapses of judgement when assessing the evidence in fields outside their own. By any objective criteria, there is abundant historical evidence that Jesus existed. Professor Coyne should have the grace to acknowledge this fact, and admit his error. But I’m not holding my breath.

NOTE: Kairosfocus has written an excellent post titled, Jeff Shallit: “Surely the right analogy is Santa Claus to Jesus Christ. Both are mythical figures . . . ” — spectacular Fail at History 101 in which he presents two videos summarizing the evidence for the existence of an historical Jesus.

Comments
Heart, not a bad take-down of the Paulkovich list. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2014
October
10
Oct
6
06
2014
09:10 AM
9
09
10
AM
PDT
Everyone should take the hour and watch the following: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5Ylt1pBMm8 There is no good case to say the New Testament was made up. It just doesn't work because they get too many details that can be verified correct.geoffrobinson
October 6, 2014
October
10
Oct
6
06
2014
08:43 AM
8
08
43
AM
PDT
Rod, the issue is warrant, on grounding: as in credible facts and appropriate reasoning tied to assumptions that do not beg big questions in the field of live options. If you wish to sustain Richard Carrier's Christ Myth claims, kindly sustain them on reasonable grounds in the teeth of evidence as adduced already or linked. KF PS: If you look carefully, you will see that I consistently make not a claim in biology but on sampling and search connected to information issues. Biological observed facts, I take as the BASIS for the claim, from competent sources . . . facts which are in fact uncontroversial, the Nobel prizes having long since been won for e.g. showing that DNA is a string data structure used in the cell, which encodes biological information in accord with a family of codes. What I have pointed out is that such FSCO/I has a config space and poses a search challenge that the atomic resources of solar system or cosmos, on blind chance and mechanical necessity, will face a serious needle in haystack problem with. Theories that try to assign to such search strategies the sort of design that we observe, are spectacular failures at the bar of blind sampling, not for incremental changes within an island of function but for getting to such islands in the sea of possible configs.kairosfocus
October 6, 2014
October
10
Oct
6
06
2014
08:39 AM
8
08
39
AM
PDT
Heart, My linked at 37 addresses Paulkovitch, or rather what he failed to address in pushing ill-grounded selectively hyperskeptical claims. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2014
October
10
Oct
6
06
2014
08:29 AM
8
08
29
AM
PDT
...written by atheist activist Richard Carrier, who has a Ph.D. in ancient history, but who (judging from his Wikipedia biography) has no teaching or research position at any accredited institution.
I am rather puzzled by this. Are we saying that for anybody to be taking seriously they must have both a PhD and be teaching at an accredited institution? Based on this is the logical conclusion then that the thoughts of many of the regulars here should be discounted, because I'm fairly certain firstly that many don't have PhDs and fewer are in teaching positions. For example, do Kairosfocus and BA77 have doctorates in biology and are they teaching in accredited institutions? Yet, of course their opinions and thoughts carry considerable weight here, as they should. I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with Carrier, but I would have thought that having a doctorate from Columbia (and in a relevant field) would mean that his opinions should be taken seriously.roding
October 6, 2014
October
10
Oct
6
06
2014
08:19 AM
8
08
19
AM
PDT
Early Christian History is the only science wherein would-be revisionists begin their pursuit by eliminating the earliest, most reliable and most comprehensive documents. Why? Because those documents are called "canonical"? Imagine if every time CERN released findings the scholarly community said, "well, let's see if your data holds up if we begin by discarding all of your data and looking to extra-canonical sources?" It's tautological fallacy. You cannot honestly and consistently ask someone to produce evidence for the existence of Jesus if your exclusion criterion is anything that contains evidence for the existence of Jesus. Likewise, I cannot say that there is no evidence for the Higgs Boson outside of proponents for the Higgs Boson. Just show me one person who doesn't believe in the Higgs Boson who has proven the Higgs Boson. That's the only sufficient proof for the Higgs Boson. Completely ridiculous.jw777
October 6, 2014
October
10
Oct
6
06
2014
07:33 AM
7
07
33
AM
PDT
Darwin didn’t exist. He was created by the X-Club and other young guards of naturalism order to establish methodological naturalism in science and eventually philosophical naturalism in society. This was promoted by T.H. Huxley to the masses, the Apostle Paul of Darwinism. Darwin was modeled after a figurative representation of God with a flowing beard and wise glare. Blasphemy laws still exist in many universities for anyone who speaks against this mythical being and the teachings of Darwinism.Heartlander
October 6, 2014
October
10
Oct
6
06
2014
07:06 AM
7
07
06
AM
PDT
Alexander the Great did not exist either. The first writings about him were by Plutarch some 400 years after his supposed life. Come to think of it, I don't see why we believe that the historian Plutarch really existed, or the historians that wrote about Plutarch. So, all ancient history is a hoax and a lie. If there ain't a video of it on youtube, it didn't happen.StuartHarris
October 6, 2014
October
10
Oct
6
06
2014
06:27 AM
6
06
27
AM
PDT
FYI - So-Called ‘Biblical Scholar’ Says Jesus A Made-Up Myth Heartlander
October 6, 2014
October
10
Oct
6
06
2014
06:17 AM
6
06
17
AM
PDT
F/N: A Video course level response on the historicity of the Gospels (and thus the life of Jesus). KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2014
October
10
Oct
6
06
2014
05:25 AM
5
05
25
AM
PDT
HeKS: In exploring hyperskepticism some years ago (what Simon Greenleaf called "the error of the skeptic") I wondered if selective hyperskepticism mirrored hypercredulity. The answer was, no, in order to DIS-believe what one should not, one will simultaneously find oneself already accepting what one should not. So the focal issue is inserting a double standard of warrant in order to reject what one should not; generally because one wishes the world not to be so. Of course, such hyperskepticism must fend off correction, so it is sustained by a rhetoric of polarisation which then often issues in contempt towards those who differ and in an attack-dog mentality. This stabilises what is inherently unstable on its own, and of course attack dogs run in packs. In this case there simply is no good reason to disbelieve the historical reality of the C1 Carpenter from Nazareth and itinerant preacher known as Jesus (in our English language rendering). Who, having been outspoken in speaking truth to power suffered judicial murder at the hands of key local and colonial elites as part of the all too usual dirty power politics we can read of in honest history, or even see around us today. Nor, that his shocked and despairing followers, after a circle of women found his tomb empty on going to complete hastily begun burial rites, and who became the first witnesses who testified to his resurrection. Remember, Mary Magdalene was a woman formerly of ill repute and her reaction on record to the presumed gardener is: where did they [the hostile authorities . . . ] take the body? I will re-bury it myself if you tell me. Mary! She knew THAT voice, the voice she never expected to hear again this side of the grave. The death-grip grabbing of her master so recently torn from her by hostile powers is understandable. Then, the women reported their experiences. The men of the company of disciples responded in accord with the typical views of the day, and were inclined to be dismissive and incredulous. The most generous minded simply spoke of what "the women" said. The less so were muttering of old wives' tales. All of this deeply embarrassing detail is right there in the record, put there by men willing to say the first witnesses were those least likely to be believed by a C1 audience. (Fabricators would simply circumvent such.) But then -- in a culture that expected an end of days general resurrection and Judgement and would find it acceptable that someone has a vision that comforted the mourners that the murdered prophet rested with God -- the unexpected happens. The presumed gardener (ever noticed how Gardeners always seem to be early at their task?) who might be able to tell where the authorities moved the body to tuns out NOT to be the gardener. Behind closed and locked doors [for fear . . . ], someone comes to supper -- after he has been murdered by order of an unjust court led by a dangerous colonial governor. Doubters demanding more than mere convergent eyewitness testimony and the parallel missing body, the sudden conversion of the hitherto dismissive family members (what, my own brother has gone mad . . . ?) and preposterous stories of raids marking an act of rebellion, find one willing to go the extra mile with evidence. But, stipulates that adequate evidence is all that one may justly demand. Evidence adequate to warrant to relevant reasonable degree. And from such humble beginnings, a tidal wave gathers momentum. Momentum that could not be stopped by dungeon, fire, sword and worse. Momentum that has lasted to today, transforming lives all around. Momentum that STILL issues in miraculous life-changing answer to prayer. So, the witnesses keep on coming. But, we need to ask some sobering questions of ourselves. Why do so many so desperately wish that Jesus be a myth, to the point where they cling to absurd dismissals in the teeth of far more than adequate historical evidence for the world's most famous carpenter? Why do so many refuse to listen to, and even dismiss eyewitness lifetime record of eyewitness testimony bearing the ring of truth as "no evidence"? Why do so many refuse to fairly address the most famous sermon in history as the central ethical teaching of the Judaeo-Christian tradition, taught by its principal teacher? Why are so many so contemptuously dismissive of the experience of millions across twenty centuries and millions more today, about life-transforming encounter with and miracles by the living God in the face of that same Carpenter from a back-water village? Why are so many of such skeptics so angry and even spiteful? Why are so many so willing to indulge in double-standards of warrant, clinging to dismissive accounts that cannot soundly address the evidence, while loudly proclaiming that evidence is "not evidence"? Could there be a little more going on than mere epistemology of warrant? And, if that is the attitude to history reported by eyewitnesses on copious and easily accessible record, how will such skeptics handle the remote past of origins where we deal with traces and inferences to best explanation per inductively validated signs such as FSCO/I? Maybe, then, what we are dealing with is more of a clash of worldviews and cultural visions with implications for institutions of power, rather than a matter of simple evidence and warrant. The case of the C1's most famous personality may therefore have far more relevance to the epistemological issues at stake than we might at first believe. As comes out in the way Prof Coyne handles the evidence . . . or rather, dismisses it. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2014
October
10
Oct
6
06
2014
12:15 AM
12
12
15
AM
PDT
@phoodoo #34 In my opinion, what this has to with Intelligent Design is that it is merely one of the many examples of the sheer credulity exhibited by the staunchest and most vocal opponents of Intelligent Design when it comes to virtually any claim that makes their own materialistic worldview seem more plausible and secure. As long as it suits their purposes, it is perfectly fine to ignore the uniform conclusions of academic specialists in a field with which they have little to no familiarity.HeKS
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
10:34 PM
10
10
34
PM
PDT
What in the world does this have to do with Intelligent Design?phoodoo
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
09:52 PM
9
09
52
PM
PDT
These absurd atheists can't impugn Christ's character, so now they're trying to claim HE never existed - it doesn't get more desperate than that.Blue_Savannah
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
09:38 PM
9
09
38
PM
PDT
A few thoughts,,, Coyne's denial of the existence of Jesus, not just the denial of the resurrection of Jesus but the denial of Jesus's very existence as a historical person, reminds me of Coyne's denial of his own mind.
The Confidence of Jerry Coyne - Ross Douthat - January 6, 2014 Excerpt: But then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant: But more on that below.) Prometheus cannot be at once unbound and unreal; the human will cannot be simultaneously triumphant and imaginary. http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
Exactly how do you reason with a person that denies that the reality of their very own mind?
Sam Harris's Free Will: The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It - Martin Cothran - November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state -- including their position on this issue -- is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn't logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre066221.html
Especially since the fact that we have a mind is the one most thing we can be most sure of existing?
"We have so much confidence in our materialist assumptions (which are assumptions, not facts) that something like free will is denied in principle. Maybe it doesn’t exist, but I don’t really know that. Either way, it doesn’t matter because if free will and consciousness are just an illusion, they are the most seamless illusions ever created. Film maker James Cameron wishes he had special effects that good." Matthew D. Lieberman - neuroscientist - materialist - UCLA professor David Chalmers on Consciousness - (Descartes, Philosophical zombies, and the hard problem of consciousness) - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoo
The failure to admit that you, as a 'person', have a mind to reason with in the first place is to render anything else that you say about the truth or falsity of any subject nonsensical.
Physicalism and Reason - May 2013 Summary: So we find ourselves affirming two contradictory propositions: 1. Everything is governed by cause-and-effect. 2. Our brains can process and be changed by ground-consequent logical relationships. To achieve consistency, we must either deny that everything is governed by cause-and-effect, and open our worldviews to something beyond physicalism, or we must deny that our brains are influenced by ground-consequence reasoning, and abandon the idea that we are rational creatures. Ask yourself: are humans like falling dominoes, entirely subject to natural law, or may we stand up and walk in the direction that reason shows us? http://www.reasonsforgod.org/2012/09/physicalism-and-reason/ Do the New Atheists Own the Market on Reason? - On the terms of the New Atheists, the very concept of rationality becomes nonsensical - By R. Scott Smith, May 03, 2012 Excerpt: If atheistic evolution by NS were true, we'd be in a beginningless series of interpretations, without any knowledge. Yet, we do know many things. So, naturalism & atheistic evolution by NS are false -- non-physical essences exist. But, what's their best explanation? Being non-physical, it can't be evolution by NS. Plus, we use our experiences, form concepts and beliefs, and even modify or reject them. Yet, if we're just physical beings, how could we interact with and use these non-physical things? Perhaps we have non-physical souls too. In all, it seems likely the best explanation for these non-physical things is that there exists a Creator after all. http://www.patheos.com/Evangelical/Atheists-Own-the-Market-on-Reason-Scott-Smith-05-04-2012?offset=1&max=1
Moreover, not only is our reasoning completely undermined within naturalism, but perception itself becomes untrustworthy under naturalism
Scientific Peer Review is in Trouble: From Medical Science to Darwinism - Mike Keas - October 10, 2012 Excerpt: Survival is all that matters on evolutionary naturalism. Our evolving brains are more likely to give us useful fictions that promote survival rather than the truth about reality. Thus evolutionary naturalism undermines all rationality (including confidence in science itself). Renown philosopher Alvin Plantinga has argued against naturalism in this way (summary of that argument is linked on the site:). Or, if your short on time and patience to grasp Plantinga's nuanced argument, see if you can digest this thought from evolutionary cognitive psychologist Steve Pinker, who baldly states: "Our brains are shaped for fitness, not for truth; sometimes the truth is adaptive, sometimes it is not." Steven Pinker, evolutionary cognitive psychologist, How the Mind Works (W.W. Norton, 1997), p. 305. http://blogs.christianpost.com/science-and-faith/scientific-peer-review-is-in-trouble-from-medical-science-to-darwinism-12421/
of related interest to Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism:
Quote: "In evolutionary games we put truth (true perception) on the stage and it dies. And in genetic algorithms it (true perception) never gets on the stage" Donald Hoffman PhD. - Consciousness and The Interface Theory of Perception - 7:19 to 9:20 minute mark - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dqDP34a-epI#t=439
Which brings us back to the main point, since Coyne denies the reality of his own mind, and has thus forfeited his right to reason rationally in the first place, why should anyone care what his 'illusory' opinions on the historicity of Jesus are? Moreover, since Coyne denies the reality of his own mind, how can he possibly believe in life after death?,,,, Even though the evidence for life after death has far more observational evidence going for it than neo-Darwinian evolution does?
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. per Evolution News and Views
Supplemental notes: If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the "3D - photographic negative" image on the Shroud I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before.
Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? - article with video Excerpt: "Very often as they're moving through the tunnel, there's a very bright mystical light ... not like a light we're used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns..." - Jeffery Long M.D. - has studied NDE's extensively http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/beyondbelief/experts-death-experience/story?id=14221154#.T_gydvW8jbI "Suddenly, I was enveloped in this brilliant golden light. The light was more brilliant that the light emanating from the sun, many times more powerful and radiant than the sun itself. Yet, I was not blinded by it nor burned by it. Instead, the light was a source of energy that embraced my being." Ned Dougherty's - Fast Lane To Heaven - Quoted from "To Heaven and Back" pg. 71 - Mary C. Neal MD
Verse and Music:
Acts 26:13-15 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Toby Mac (In The Light) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_MpGRQRrP0
bornagain77
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
05:59 PM
5
05
59
PM
PDT
No problem Axel,,, I borrowed the line from PaV, slightly modified,, i.e. "Another Day, Another Bad Day for Darwinism!bornagain77
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
10 Undisputed Facts about Jesus - reasons to believe - Sept. 2014 - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNaEgARS6Og&index=7&list=UUYn91p__adK3Vcml9_CY26Q 1-3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irc1IBwPHws&index=6&list=UUYn91p__adK3Vcml9_CY26Q 4-6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IODTBZl-pbs&list=UUYn91p__adK3Vcml9_CY26Q&index=5 7-8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_miM7izPbQ&list=UUYn91p__adK3Vcml9_CY26Q&index=4 9-10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckpfaZaXf1w&list=UUYn91p__adK3Vcml9_CY26Q&index=3bornagain77
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
03:18 PM
3
03
18
PM
PDT
PS: Thanks for the videos. I'm just gonna watch'em.Axel
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
03:15 PM
3
03
15
PM
PDT
Your #20 BA77 'Another day, another bad day for local realists (i.e. for materialists).' - BA77 Just your second line and I'm in stitches! I've just posted this below a YouTube video, in which Stephen Meyer explains Intelligent Design. The funny thing is, I only watched the first fifteen to twenty minutes, then jumped to 3/4 of the way through, then much closer to the end of his talk, after I had written my post. But in that last part, Stephen referred to a chap called Herschel (whom I've barely heard), who in the same vein as my post, the same context used that term, 'higgledy-piggledy'. I wonder if it would be easier to study things that have actually been designed than things that only appear to have been, but are really a random jumble? How much more intelligent must atheists with brains like lottery drums must be, to be able to make sense of such a higgledy-piggledy world, without any order or regularity - which are always manifestly the product of intelligence. 'Billy Bean built a machine to see what it would do. He built it up from sticks and stones and nuts and bolts and glue.' Ah, those were the days.. The innocent world of the five-year old.?' - Axel, of this parish. I suppose I shouldn't really be surprised as there wouldn't be too many synonyms for it.Axel
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
03:14 PM
3
03
14
PM
PDT
AW: Present day miracles of guidance, healing, deliverance and life transformation in answer to prayer in Jesus' name in accord with specific scriptural promises are about as relevant to scripture as you get. KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PDT
a few resources defending the integrity of the Gospels: Undesigned Coincidences (evidence for the historicity of the Gospels) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGVLeC5HbSQ How Reliable Is the New Testament? – Dr. Daniel Wallace (16:30 minute mark of video “The New Testament has an ‘embarrassment of riches’ compared to other ancient texts”) – video (Dr. Wallace publicly debated Bart Ehrman 3 times) http://www.watermark.org/media/how-badly-did-the-early-scribes-corrupt-the-new-testament/2305/ The reliability of the New Testament compared to other ancient texts - graph http://visualunit.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/nt_reliability1.jpg J. Warner Wallace Lectures on the Evidence for Christianity - video Description: Cold-case detective J. Warner Wallace, and author of Cold-Case Christianity, presented this lecture via Skype at Reasonable Faith Belfast on Monday, 3rd December 2012. He talks about the nature of evidence, possibility and reason, the chain of custody for the New Testament documents, and much more. The lecture is about an hour (with great visuals), followed by about 30 minutes of Q&A. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiYQzOypD9o Alleged Contradictions in the Gospels by Dr. Timothy McGrew - lecture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJizWvoGCIgbornagain77
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
02:06 PM
2
02
06
PM
PDT
KF at #17:
When it comes to miracles, I have personally witnessed several across my lifetime and had it not been for one of guidance when I was at death’s door from a dangerous chronic disease, I would be dead forty years now. There are thousands or even millions today who have experienced or witnessed genuine miracles in answer to prayer in the name of Jesus. Far, far more than enough to overturn epistemological skepticism. But the chief miracle is the resurrection of Jesus.
I think you confuse the issue by dragging in current day miracles to validate scripture. I'm not saying you didn't witness them, but the chief purpose of Jesus performing signs and wonders was to prove he was sent by God -- just as Moses was given the ability to perform signs and wonders to prove he had the authority to tell Israel that God was going to deliver them from the Egyptians. Apostles like Peter and Paul were also given the power to perform signs and wonders to show their authority to preach the gospel came from God. But once Israel as a nation (with individual exceptions) rejected Jesus as their Messiah even after prophecy of his crucifixion and resurrection was fulfilled, the gospel went to the Gentiles where it was readily accepted. Signs and wonders were no longer needed 35 years after the resurrection when all the New Testament was finally recorded and Israel was spread across the globe. But now, in just this past century them prophetic dry bones started coming together in the land they were promised. Now they have pretty substantial muscle on them dry bones. The fulfillment of the rest of prophecy can't be much further away. So if you're looking for evidence that the Bible is true, look no further than the success of modern day Israel even surrounded by those who want it annihilated. That is the real sign and wonder that will ultimately prove the Bible true that no one will be able to refute.awstar
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
02:01 PM
2
02
01
PM
PDT
Axel @16, Dr. Paul Giem recently did some videos on Quantum Mechanics Quantum Weirdness and God by Paul Giem - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7HHz14tS1c Quantum Weirdness and Reality by Paul Giem - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0ZlXixrDmk Here is another video that Dr. Giem just did that is of interest to UD readers Biological Information: The Book - 10-04-2014 by Paul Giem - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg_xp0dRUdMbornagain77
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
01:18 PM
1
01
18
PM
PDT
Coyne is a perfect picture of someone believing/seeing what you want to. Evidently history is divided into BC and AD because of a fictitious person. How rational is that? He would absolutely love it if Jesus was not a real person, but unfortunately, beliefs and wishes do not dictate reality. Interesting that no one is trying to defend Coyne here. That give you an idea of how far out his ideas are.tjguy
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
12:34 PM
12
12
34
PM
PDT
There is no need to quote Josephus or Tacitus. There are over a half-dozen Biblical writers who were contemporary with Jesus, and who knew him personally. Their testimony should be held by any reasonable scholar with at least as much respect as the testimony of anyone else. As they provide volumes of testimony, this should vastly outweigh the snippets provided by Josephus and Tacitus. The Biblical writers are somehow dismissed, but honest historians would not do so. The only conclusion I can come to is that those who reject the historical Jesus are not honest.Moose Dr
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
12:31 PM
12
12
31
PM
PDT
OOPS, below the Wigner Nobel prize video should not be there, so please ignore,,,bornagain77
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
12:13 PM
12
12
13
PM
PDT
Axel at 16, you might appreciate these recent papers,,, Another day, another bad day for local realists (i.e. for materialists). - Bell-inequality violation with entangled photons, free of the coincidence-time loophole - Sept. 2014 Abstract In a local realist model, physical properties are defined prior to and independent of measurement and no physical influence can propagate faster than the speed of light. Proper experimental violation of a Bell inequality would show that the world cannot be described with such a model. Experiments intended to demonstrate a violation usually require additional assumptions that make them vulnerable to a number of “loopholes.” In both pulsed and continuously pumped photonic experiments, an experimenter needs to identify which detected photons belong to the same pair, giving rise to the coincidence-time loophole. Here, via two different methods, we derive Clauser-Horne- and Eberhard-type inequalities that are not only free of the fair-sampling assumption (thus not being vulnerable to the detection loophole), but also free of the fair-coincidence assumption (thus not being vulnerable to the coincidence-time loophole). Both approaches can be used for pulsed as well as for continuously pumped experiments. Moreover, as they can also be applied to already existing experimental data, we finally show that a recent experiment [Giustina et al., Nature (London) 497, 227 (2013)] violated local realism without requiring the fair-coincidence assumption. http://journals.aps.org/pra/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevA.90.032107 "It will remain remarkable, in whatever way our future concepts may develop, that the very study of the external world led to the scientific conclusion that the content of the consciousness is the ultimate universal reality" - Eugene Wigner - (Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, Eugene Wigner, in Wheeler and Zurek, p.169) 1961 - received Nobel Prize in 1963 for 'Quantum Symmetries' http://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/wigner/ Of related note to the preceding Wigner 'consciousness' quote, it is interesting to note that many of Wigner's insights have now been experimentally verified and are also now fostering a 'second' revolution in quantum mechanics,,, Eugene Wigner – A Gedanken Pioneer of the Second Quantum Revolution - Anton Zeilinger - Sept. 2014 Conclusion It would be fascinating to know Eugene Wigner’s reaction to the fact that the gedanken experiments he discussed (in 1963 and 1970) have not only become reality, but building on his gedanken experiments, new ideas have developed which on the one hand probe the foundations of quantum mechanics even deeper, and which on the other hand also provide the foundations to the new field of quantum information technology. All these experiments pay homage to the great insight Wigner expressed in developing these gedanken experiments and in his analyses of the foundations of quantum mechanics, http://epjwoc.epj.org/articles/epjconf/pdf/2014/15/epjconf_wigner2014_01010.pdf Eugene Wigner receives his Nobel Prize for Quantum Symmetries - video 1963 http://www.nobelprize.org/mediaplayer/index.php?id=1111 Audio: why do butterflies shimmer? on the BBC News. Butterfly "structural color" may lead engineers to design super materials. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29488923 Take Me In - Holy Of Holies - Kutless - Music Video http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=90EM0CNU New Precambrian Fossils Are Not Cambrian Ancestors - October 2, 2014 Excerpt: From the headlines you might think that with the discovery of some new Chinese embryo fossils, the enigma of the Cambrian explosion has been solved. The announcement from Virginia Tech trumpets, "New evidence of ancient multicellular life sets evolutionary timeline back 60 million years." ,,, What's new about these fossils? Nothing. Similar embryos were found in the 1990s by J. Y. Chen and Paul Chien in the same Doushantuo formation, and reported in the peer-reviewed literature (Xiao et al. cite that paper in their references). The story is recounted in both Stephen Meyer's book Darwin's Doubt and in the Illustra film Darwin's Dilemma. The presence of embryos in the Precambrian didn't solve the Cambrian explosion problem then, and it doesn't now. In fact, they make the problem worse, because they show that the Precambrian strata were perfectly capable of preserving transitional forms, had they existed. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/10/new_precambrian090171.htmlbornagain77
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
12:11 PM
12
12
11
PM
PDT
'coincidentally': An Atheist’s Defense of the Historicity of Jesus - September 4, 2014 by Neil Carter I can’t believe I’m feeling the need to do this, but today I’d like to write a brief defense of the historicity of Jesus. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2014/09/04/an-atheists-defense-of-the-historicity-of-jesus/bornagain77
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
12:05 PM
12
12
05
PM
PDT
Sorry, typo: such doubts should not be allowed to beg questions or lead to refusing to acknowledge that the NT documents are not evidence from C1kairosfocus
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
11:26 AM
11
11
26
AM
PDT
Mahuna: Dr JDD is right, and in particular you have four biographies, three credibly by c AD 62, and the fourth by an eyewitness possibly to the 90's AD. Far too much, and to early to simply be brushed aside as "no evidence." The Acts clearly dates to c. 62 AD, and Lk is c 57 - 59. Lk -- a careful and proved habitually accurate reporter -- uses Mk as a trusted source, setting this to c 50, and the passion narrative in it is arguably c 37. For over 100 years now since Ramsay, it is well known that there are abundant authenticating patterns of interconnexion with the times, to archaeological materials, to the matrix of the times, up to even the frequencies of names in use in Palestine among Jews (as opposed to say in Egypt). By 95 - 115 AD, 25 of the 27 NT documents (the other two are among the shortest) were cited or alluded to in the first circle of writing Church Fathers, as authoritative. Add in the Rylands fragment and other early MSS and we have excellent reason to see that the NT accounts are eyewitness lifetime documents that fit their times in only the way that reality-anchored reports will. There is therefore every reason to understand that the former hysperskeptical and dismissive theories have for good reason bitten the dust. Next, as Paul Barnett aptly summarises, the early Non-Christian sources (though of course brief) also fit in well with the NT records:
On the basis of . . . non-Christian sources [i.e. Tacitus (Annals, on the fire in Rome, AD 64; written ~ AD 115), Rabbi Eliezer (~ 90's AD; cited J. Klausner, Jesus of Nazareth (London: Collier-Macmillan, 1929), p. 34), Pliny (Letters to Trajan from Bithynia, ~ AD 112), Josephus (Antiquities, ~ 90's)] it is possible to draw the following conclusions: Jesus Christ was executed (by crucifixion?) in Judaea during the period where Tiberius was Emperor (AD 14 - 37) and Pontius Pilate was Governor (AD 26 - 36). [Tacitus] The movement spread from Judaea to Rome. [Tacitus] Jesus claimed to be God and that he would depart and return. [Eliezer] His followers worshipped him as (a) god. [Pliny] He was called "the Christ." [Josephus] His followers were called "Christians." [Tacitus, Pliny] They were numerous in Bithynia and Rome [Tacitus, Pliny] It was a world-wide movement. [Eliezer] His brother was James. [Josephus] [Is the New Testament History? (London, Hodder, 1987), pp. 30 - 31. Cf. McDowell & Wilson, He Walked Among Us (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 1993) for more details; free for download here.]
When it comes to Josephus, there is no good reason to reject the remarks on the death of James. And while there has been apparent interpolation in the more detailed reference, as VJT pointed out such can be reasonably excised and the result is backed up by what seems to be another stream of transmission. There is no good reason to see the NT documents as anything but historically rooted accounts from within living memory of the events. Here is noted NT scholar Craig Evans in the 2004 Benthal Public Lecture at U Calgary:
The story told in the New Testament Gospels—in contrast to the greatly embellished versions found in the Gospel of Peter and other writings— smacks of verisimilitude. The women went to the tomb to mourn privately and to perform duties fully in step with Jewish burial customs. They expected to find the body of Jesus; ideas of resurrection were the last thing on their minds. The careful attention given the temporary tomb is exactly what we should expect. Pious fiction—like that seen in the Gospel of Peter— would emphasize other things. Archaeology can neither prove nor disprove the resurrection, but it can and has shed important light on the circumstances surrounding Jesus’ death, burial, and missing corpse . . . . Research in the historical Jesus has taken several positive steps in recent years. Archaeology, remarkable literary discoveries, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and progress in reassessing the social, economic, and political setting of first-century Palestine have been major factors. Notwithstanding the eccentricities and skepticism of the Jesus Seminar, the persistent trend in recent years is to see the Gospels as essentially reliable, especially when properly understood, and to view the historical Jesus in terms much closer to Christianity’s traditional understanding, i.e., as proclaimer of God’s rule, as understanding himself as the Lord’s anointed, and, indeed, as God’s own son, destined to rule Israel. But this does not mean that the historical Jesus that has begun to emerge in recent years is simply a throwback to the traditional portrait. The picture of Jesus that has emerged is more finely nuanced, more obviously Jewish, and in some ways more unpredictable than ever. The last word on the subject has not been written and probably never will be. Ongoing discovery and further investigation will likely force us to make further revisions as we read and read again the old Gospel stories and try to come to grips with the life of this remarkable Galilean Jew.
One may have doubts about miracles, in an era of hyperskepticism. But such doubts should not be allowed to beg questions or lead to refusing to acknowledge that the NT documents are not evidence from C1. As touching the miraculous, it is a commonplace to swallow Hume's epistemological dismissiveness whole as though that is final, perhaps at second hand. But in fact as long ago as Babbage's 9th Bridgewater Thesis, this was decisively answered. When we have even a fairly small number of non-colluding witnesses that cohere on the core substance of a report, it is highly unlikely that they will collectively be in error. Hence the scriptural saying tha tin the mouth of two or three witnesses shall a word be established. When it comes to miracles, I have personally witnessed several across my lifetime and had it not been for one of guidance when I was at death's door from a dangerous chronic disease, I would be dead forty years now. There are thousands or even millions today who have experienced or witnessed genuine miracles in answer to prayer in the name of Jesus. Far, far more than enough to overturn epistemological skepticism. But the chief miracle is the resurrection of Jesus. It cuts clean across scientism and evolutionary materialism, as well as fellow traveller views (including those held by theologians from schools of thought unduly influenced by the hyperskeptical spirit of our age). What I will say of it is here on, including a video that I invite you to watch and ponder. (VJT has also linked a recent post in response to Mr Shallit.) Highlighting, there are just two serious ways to account for the dozen or so key-point minimal fact evidence accepted today by an absolute to overwhelming majority of those writing in the technical literature over the past generation. One, an unprecedented, psychologically implausible and utterly convincing hallucination that includes skeptics [Jesus' own brothers] and an arch-persecuter [Saul of Tarsus]. Two, the witnesses are not merely sincere, but report the truth, truth for which many peacefully surrendered their lives to dungeon, fire, sword or worse. And since, millions have reported and manifested transformation of life through encounter with God in the face of Jesus. Of which number, I count myself and a significant number of family, friends and associates. KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
11:14 AM
11
11
14
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5

Leave a Reply