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On Invoking Non-Physical Mental States to “Solve the Problem” of Consciousness

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A. Reciprocating Bill asks a question

In a comment to a recent post Reciprocating Bill asked why I believe invoking non-physical mental states “solves the problems of consciousness.” It is an interesting question, but not for the reason Bill intended. It is interesting because it betrays Bill’s fundamental misunderstanding of the argument he purports to be critiquing (I am not picking on Bill in particular; I am merely using his error as a platform to discuss the same error that materialists always make when discussing this issue). In this post I will show how Bill’s misunderstanding stems from his inability to view the world outside of the box of materialist metaphysics in which he has allowed himself to become trapped. I will also show that if Bill were ever able to climb out of that box and open his mind to a different, wider (and for that reason superior) ontological perspective, he would realize that consciousness is not a “problem” to be solved but a datum that must be accounted for in any robust ontology.

Here is Bill’s question in its entirety:

In Reference and Reality Hilary Putnam parenthetically remarked, “As Wittgenstein often pointed out, a philosophical problem is typically generated in this way: certain assumptions are made which are taken for granted by all sides in the subsequent discussion.”

I’ve often genuinely wondered why anyone believes that invoking dualism, and in particular an ontology that includes something like nonphysical mental states, solves the problems of consciousness, intentionality and so forth. It’s a fair question to ask how physical systems (like brains and their states) can be “about” other states, can be conscious, etc. But to respond to this difficulty by invoking a dualist ontology, and then assigning intentionality (and or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency) to the nonphysical side of one’s dualistic coin is to my ear an absolutely empty response.

That is because no one has the slightest notion of how a nonphysical mentality might instantiate intentional states (or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency), or how one might go about investigating those questions. How is a nonphysical mentality “about” something else? At least brain states offer many intriguing hooks vis the complex nature of sensory consciousness and representation that may or may not yield insights into this question as cognitive neuroscience progresses.

There is no science of non-physical mentality, nor do i see how there could be one. Ultimately, I suspect that the sequestering of phenomena such as intentionality, consciousness and agency within nonphysical mentality works for many simply because such qualities are smuggled in as the immaterial mind (or soul, or intelligence, or agency, or consciousness, or whatever) is defined as that which nonphysically bears intentionality, consciousness, agency, etc. independent of material states, To then “explain” those phenomena in nonphysical terms becomes essentially a exercise in tautology. But how or why that might be the case, or how to make that notion do any work, no one has clue.

B. The mind is immaterial

While a human is alive his mind and his brain are connected. No one doubts that. Just as assuredly, no one doubts that their own immaterial mind exists. And when I say no one doubts that, I include people like Sam Harris who say they do. Harris does not really doubt that his own mind exists. How do I know? Well, I am fairly sure Harris is not insane, and only an insane person asserts as false that which he must know to be true. It is an odd thing though. If Harris were to say “I’m a poached egg” they would put him in a padded room. But if he says the ontologically equivalent “I’m a meat robot,” they give him a book contract.

Denying that one’s own immaterial mind exists is nuts on the order of “I deny that the pronoun ‘I’ in this sentence has any antecedent.” And Sam Harris, like everyone else, knows for a certain fact that there is indeed an antecedent to that pronoun. Because the existence of one’s immaterial mind is self-evident, its existence can be denied only on pain of descending into patent absurdity. But that is not the only reason we can know with absolute certainty that our own immaterial mind exists. (Yes, I said “absolute” for that knowledge is not corrigible). Here are five more:

1. Thoughts are immaterial.

Think about a horse. Is the thought in your head about a horse an actual horse? Of course not. Is the thought in your head a material thing at all? Obviously not. Think about the number four. I don’t mean count four things. I mean think of the concept of “four.” Is the abstract concept of “four” a material thing? No. Is your thought about the abstract concept of “four” a material thing? No. It follows that thoughts are immaterial, and this is especially obvious when we are thinking about immaterial things such as abstract concepts.

Any attempt to deny this founders immediately on the shoals of the interface problem – how can an immaterial concept interface with a material object? On materialism, consciousness must be reducible to a configuration of physical things (whether we call those physical things “atoms” or “molecules” or “neurons” does not matter; the point is they are physical things). Consider any abstract concept; 2+2=4 will do. Merely saying 2+2=4 is represented somehow in the brain by a configuration of firing synapses does not get you there. 2+2=4 is represented in the pixels of the computer screen in front of you right now. Is your computer screen conscious? Obviously, an immaterial mind has no problem interfacing with an abstract immaterial concept. The burden is on the materialist who asserts that material things can interface with immaterial things to show how that can possibly be true.

2. Material objects cannot exhibit intentionality.

As the Wiki article states, “intentionality” is “the power of minds to be about, to represent, or to stand for things, properties and states of affairs.” Rocks do not exhibit intentionality. A rock does not, for example, have the capacity to assert a belief such as “Washington was the first president.” Similarly, the sentence “The group of oxygen atoms believed that Washington was the first president” is absurd. What is true for oxygen is also true for the atoms of the other elements of the body, i.e., carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, phosphorus, etc.

Suppose one gathers together all of the various elements that compose a human body (i.e., oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.) and mixes those chemicals up in exactly the same quantities and proportions that are found in a human body and puts it all in a bag. That bag of chemicals does not have any more capacity to assert a belief than a rock. Intentionality obviously exists; any attempt to deny its existence would be incoherent. It would be like saying “I believe there are no beliefs.” It follows, therefore, that intentionality exists and that it is not a property of a physical thing. Hence, it is a property of an immaterial mind.

In order to rebut this assertion the materialist would have to explain what is special about a bag of chemicals configured as the human body that it should all of a sudden acquire the capacity for intentionality when the same a different bag of the exact same chemicals does not. The usual response of “it’s all emergent and stuff” is a non-starter. Unless you show how the physical gives rise to the mental, “it’s emergent” is the equivalent of saying “it’s magic!”

3. Qualia are immaterial.

Suppose a person, let’s call her Mary, has a brain disease that makes her see everything in black and white. Mary watches the sun set every night and reads books on sunsets and has spectrometers that tell her all of the pertinent information about the colors of every sunset she watches such that she has complete information about the physical properties of sunsets. Suppose further that one day Mary is cured of the disease and that evening for the first time she sees the colors of the sunset in all the fullness of their glory.

Does Mary now know something about sunsets that she did not know before she was cured? Of course she does. She now has knowledge about her subjective experience of the various colors of the sunset that she did not have before. But Mary did not have any more information whatsoever about the physical properties of sunsets. It follows that her subjective experience of the sunset (e.g., how she might describe the reds as “warm”) cannot be reduced to the physical properties of the sunset which she already knew. Hence, qualia such as this cannot be reduced to physical properties and are therefore immaterial.

4. Subjective self-awareness is immaterial.

As I type this I am looking at an orange bottle on my desk. When I look at the bottle I experience subject-object duality. I experience myself as a subject and the bottle as an object perceived by the subject. Not only do bags of chemicals not have the capacity for intentionality, but also they do not have the capacity for perceiving subject-object duality or any other quality of subjective self-awareness. It follows that subjective self-awareness is the quality of an immaterial thing (i.e., the immaterial mind).

5. The unified consciousness is immaterial.

Here is a “problem” that neuroscience can never hope to address, much less solve. How can the unity of our consciousness be explained by discrete brain events? Do you perceive your own consciousness as this state followed by this state followed by this state followed by this state, ad infinitum? Of course not. Like everyone else you experience your own consciousness as a unified seamless whole. This is not surprising. In fact, it is necessary, because the “self” of which we are subjectively self-aware would not be much of a “self” unless it were a unified self. Thus, intentionality, subject-object duality, and all other aspects of consciousness depend on the existence of this unity.

Neuroscience cannot, in principle, account for this unity for a very simple reason – science operates at the level of composites. We are just a “pack of neurons” Crick says. But how can a pack (i.e., a composite) of individual physical pieces be aware of itself as a unified whole? The question is unanswerable. It follows that the unity of consciousness that every one of us experiences is not a property of a pack of neurons. It is a quality of an immaterial mind.

6. Summary

I will allow David Bentley Hart to summarize for us.

[The] intuitions of folk psychology are in fact perfectly accurate; they are not merely some theory about the mind that is either corrigible or dispensable. They constitute nothing less than a full and coherent phenomenological description of the life of the mind, and they are absolutely “primordial data,” which cannot be abandoned in favor of some alternative description without producing logical nonsense. Simply said, consciousness as we commonly conceive of it is quite real (as all of us, apart from a few cognitive scientists and philosophers, already know— and they know it too, really). And this presents a problem for materialism, because consciousness as we commonly conceive of it is also almost certainly irreconcilable with a materialist view of reality.

David Bentley Hart, The Experience of God

The material mind is a datum. As Hart says, it is the primordial datum. It is a datum that is known by everyone, because it cannot not be known. Thus, when I assert that the mind is immaterial I am not making an argument. I not advancing an “explanation.” I am not trying to “solve a problem.” I am merely stating a fact, a self-evident fact at that.

C. Answering Bill’s Questions.

With all of that as preface, let us turn to Bill’s questions.

1. I’ve often genuinely wondered why anyone believes that invoking dualism, and in particular an ontology that includes something like nonphysical mental states, solves the problems of consciousness, intentionality and so forth.

As I said, I am not attempting to solve the problem of consciousness. Further, I deny that such a thing as the “problem of consciousness” exists, if by “problem” one means a conundrum posed for a solution concerning whether the mind exists. I invoke an ontology that includes nonphysical mental states not to solve a problem but merely to account for the data. To do otherwise would be manifest error. It is an indubitable fact that nonphysical mental states exist, and therefore any ontology that has no room for nonphysical mental states is, by definition, erroneous, incomplete or both.

Facts are stubborn things as John Adams famously said. Denying facts does not make them go away. I readily admit that the fact of the existence of the immaterial mind is not anodyne to those who insist on a materialist metaphysics. But I would point out that if one’s metaphysics conflict with the facts, that is not a problem with the facts. It is a problem with one’s metaphysics.

2. It’s a fair question to ask how physical systems (like brains and their states) can be “about” other states, can be conscious, etc.

It was not intended to be a fair question Bill. It is a rhetorical question, asked only to emphasize that the only coherent answer is “they can’t be.”

3. But to respond to this difficulty by invoking a dualist ontology, and then assigning intentionality (and or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency) to the nonphysical side of one’s dualistic coin is to my ear an absolutely empty response.

What difficulty? There is no difficulty unless you’ve set out to do the impossible by ascribing the attributes of consciousness (intentionality, qualia, unity, etc.) to objects such as atoms or rocks or amalgamations of chemicals. No one “assigns” consciousness to immaterial minds any more than anyone assigns “seeing” to eyes. And that an immaterial mind is the locus of your consciousness is as evident as your eyes are the locus of your capacity to see (perhaps even more evident; blind people think after all). If acknowledging self-evident facts seems somehow “empty” to you, the problem is assuredly with your perception and not with the facts.

4. That is because no one has the slightest notion of how a nonphysical mentality might instantiate intentional states (or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency), or how one might go about investigating those questions. How is a nonphysical mentality “about” something else?

The “interaction” problem is a function of blinkered metaphysics. Adopt a more robust metaphysics and the problem vanishes. Hart again:

In Western philosophical tradition, for instance, neither Platonists, nor Aristotelians, nor Stoics, nor any of the Christian metaphysicians of late antiquity or the Middle Ages could have conceived of matter as something independent of “spirit,” or of spirit as something simply superadded to matter in living beings. Certainly none of them thought of either the body or the cosmos as a machine merely organized by a rational force from beyond itself. Rather, they saw matter as being always already informed by indwelling rational causes, and thus open to— and in fact directed toward— mind. Nor did Platonists or Aristotelians or Christians conceive of spirit as being immaterial in a purely privative sense, in the way that a vacuum is not aerial or a vapor is not a solid. If anything, they understood spirit as being more substantial, more actual, more “supereminently” real than matter, and as in fact being the pervasive reality in which matter had to participate in order to be anything at all. The quandary produced by early modern dualism— the notorious “interaction problem” of how an immaterial reality could have an effect upon a purely material thing —was no quandary at all, because no school conceived of the interaction between soul and body as a purely extrinsic physical alliance between two disparate kinds of substance.

David Bentley Hart, The Experience of God

5. At least brain states offer many intriguing hooks vis the complex nature of sensory consciousness and representation that may or may not yield insights into this question as cognitive neuroscience progresses.

If by “intriguing hooks” you mean facile speculations about how the unbridgeable ontological gulf between the physical and mental is not so unbridgeable after all, I might agree. But if you are actually holding out hope that the gulf will be bridged, you are bound to be disappointed, because the mind is not the brain.  Materialists are addicted to debt.  The constantly issue epistemic promissory notes that a moment of ontological reflection would reveal they cannot possibly pay.  Bill, the bottom line is this:  Neuroscience will continue to progress, but it will never progress to the point where it do the impossible — collapse the distinction between the ontological categories “physical” and “mental.”

6. There is no science of non-physical mentality, nor do i see how there could be one.

That is kind of funny, because you appear to be saying in all earnestness that if a fact cannot be investigated through the methods of science, it is a problem with the fact (and not merely evidence of the limitations of science). Let’s unpack this. You seem to be advancing an argument that can be broken down as follows:

There are no facts except those revealed to us by science
Science has not revealed to us the existence of an immaterial mind
Therefore, immaterial minds do not exist.

Surely you know that the major premise cannot possibly be correct as a matter of simple and indubitable logic – because that premise itself has not been revealed to us by science. Therefore, if it is true it must as a result be false. For another thing, as we have already seen, the existence of the immaterial mind is an undeniable fact. Therefore, any argument that leads to the conclusion that it is not a fact must, by definition, be faulty.

7. Ultimately, I suspect that the sequestering of phenomena such as intentionality, consciousness and agency within nonphysical mentality works for many simply because such qualities are smuggled in as the immaterial mind (or soul, or intelligence, or agency, or consciousness, or whatever) is defined as that which nonphysically bears intentionality, consciousness, agency, etc. independent of material states, To then “explain” those phenomena in nonphysical terms becomes essentially a exercise in tautology. But how or why that might be the case, or how to make that notion do any work, no one has clue.

The only reason you suspect that is because of the poverty of your metaphysics. Free yourself. Allow yourself to think beyond the comfortable contours of your metaphysical box, and you will see possibilities you were never able to see before. I promise.

Comments
Having said that, there is neither red nor green nor blue in the brain or the environment. Color sensations are spirit stuff. They come from the true self. But I would not say they are "abstract" in the sense of non-existent. They certainly do exist in a different realm.Mapou
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate, mathematical concepts are a unity. They do not become a multiplicity just because they are held in the minds of different individuals. My concept of an equilateral triangle is the very same one as your concept of it. If you think this is not the case and that there are differences can you tell me what they are?CharlieM
May 12, 2015
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nkendall @87, Eigenstate is right that thoughts are represented in the brain. He is just wrong that the representations are self-conscious. Materialists are really monadists. And yet the universe is known to have supersymmetry. You can't have an electron without a positron or left without right or knower without known or vice versa.Mapou
May 12, 2015
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Eigenstate, The brain cannot know itself. That would be a contradiction. To know anything, one needs a knower and a known. The two are opposites. IOW, the knower cannot be known and the known cannot know, BY DEFINITION. If physical matter in the brain is the known, something that is the opposite of physical matter must the knower. This is Logical Reasoning 101, no?Mapou
May 12, 2015
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Eigenstate at 79. Forget it Eigenstate, I withdrawal the questions. Not because I have become disinterested but because you went on for 750 words meandering around and said absolutely nothing of substance. If you think that is any kind of an appropriate response then I am not interesting in anything further you have to say. For heaven sake man, you made the claim that all concepts are represented as brain states. And you said so emphatically. Get to the point. I am just asking you to tell me how that is done and while you are at it, tell me how those thoughts of yours arose in your brain and how they were rendered in your consciousness. Is it a specific set of neurons firing over a specific structure of synapses or what? Instead you claim a "maneuver" and go on and on about 6 month old babies and marbles. You spent the entire afternoon and evening nitpicking, obfuscating, insulting...everything but answering the central challenges to materialism that Barry put forth.nkendall
May 12, 2015
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goodusername @61, You asked Barry,
"In fact, you probably believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that a human body with consciousness could be deconstructed, and then reconstructed, over and over again, and that consciousness and mind would be attained – every time – that the body is reconstructed, and yet, you still believe that consciousness/mind are not the result of that configuration… but of… something else?"
Well the body is in a constant state of deconstruction/reconstruction, yet the self persists. From Stanford School of Medicine: "Every one of us completely regenerates our own skin every 7 days. A cut heals itself and disappears in a week or two. Every single cell in our skeleton is replaced every 7 years." The self is not the material body. The self persists but the material of the body is constantly changing. For those who are aquainted with the UK comedy, 'Only Fools and Horses' the materialists here are in a similar position to Trigger, the road sweeper. He was given an award from the council for looking after his broom over the years. The fact that it had been given several new heads and several new handles was lost on him. He still believed that he was holding the same broom that he always held.CharlieM
May 12, 2015
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You know, as someone who researches AI and the brain, I disagree that there is no material representation of objects in the brain. One cannot consciously think of an object unless there is a cortical representation of the object that one can sense. I say this as a dualist. Consciousness requires both a knower and a known. There is no getting around this. We live in a yin-yang reality. Some spirit/soul believers make the mistake of believing that the mind is just the spirit. You are greatly mistaken. After all, what we are dealing with here is a dualism, not a monadism.Mapou
May 12, 2015
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E's argument: concepts don't exist, just brain states representing concepts. Some part of your brain is tricked into thinking those other parts of your brain are concepts. Translation: one configuration of matter is "tricking" another configuration of matter. The problem is that it's a regress. A configuration of matter can't be tricked, only a mind can be tricked. So you are left trying to explain mind arising from brain by presupposing that a subset of the brain itself is a mind. You then have to recursively explain that all the way down to the level of chemistry. Good luck!NetResearchGuy
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate writes,
In any case, if you can describe how you would measure the mass of a computing operation in a calculator, I will have good guide as to how to answer your question. Brains, like electric circuits that compute (the brain is an electrical circuit) have the capacity for a larger number of different states, all “mass constant” — this is the point in asking you about the mass of an “=” operation in a calculator. The system has a discrete mass, and a finite capacity for states, but the discrete states do not map to a “discrete mass”. If I’m wrong about this, your recipe for measuring the mass of the “=” operation in your handy calculator should be able to show this.
(my bold, Tim) . . . and I cite the whole thing as to avoid being labeled a quote-miner. I also cite it to point out that I am not erecting a strawman. This is simply what eigenstate wrote and I have to admit that I sort of lost interest in the rest of the thread as no one called him out on this bit of sophistry. (I must admit that I began only to skim many of the posts that followed.) AND HERE WE GO AGAIN!!! If the brain is ONLY an electrical circuit, even the most complex set of circuitry we'll see for a long time, then it CANNOT be anything more than a physical embodiment of a universal Turing machine. And as we all know UTM's cannot, even in principle, have intentions. UTM respond, and ONLY respond. They intend nothing. It is not nor will it ever be a matter of complexity of the computer in question. All the sound and fury concerning the effect of brain on mind (see numerous posts on brain injury) as well as the curious definition of mind as not more than an activity analogous to walking is smoke and mirrors. In the first case, nobody denies that losing brain function will effect the mind any more than I might argue that eating a plate of cookies (with milk!) might change my attitude and thus change who I am. In the second case, calling the "I" which we all call ourselves nothing more than activity, simply secretes the materialist denial of the "person" into a "doing" (we often notice that doing is accompanied by persons, so it seems a logical connection, but it is not. It is a leap that makes no sense upon reflection. After all, I neither cease nor become myself by walking, so how can it be by the activities of the mind, unless only on strictly materialist understanding? Impossible.) But wait a minute, I have intentions all the time, like right now. . . goodbye.Tim
May 12, 2015
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How does Eigenstate fit an entire horse in his brain when he "thinks" about it? That is some very good packing.Andre
May 12, 2015
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@Barry,
I take it E does not believe other types of meat (e.g., ribeye steaks, chicken breasts, etc.) have the capacity to deny propositions. Under materialism, the human brain is a unique kind of meat. It is the only “meat with attitude.” Madness, sheer madness.
Well, the "other kinds of meat" you mention here are *muscles*, Barry. That's certainly an important and physical aspect of human physiology, but something quite different in structure and function from a brain. Nevertheless, I won't interfere with your shock and horror at the prospect of "meat with attitude". That does carry the kind of mojo that is both enlightening and properly alarming for you, given the worldview you've come to adopt. Don't blame the messenger, dude. And shaking your head and declaring it "madness" doesn't change the reality around you, Barry (that would be a form of sorcery if it worked, yeah?). Reality is what it is. It's a little less elegant than other formulations like "the universe experiencing itself", but for you, I'd say the more visceral the confrontation you have with the world outside of your brain/body, the better!eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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Barry,
I take it E does not believe other types of meat (e.g., ribeye steaks, chicken breasts, etc.) have the capacity to deny propositions. Under materialism, the human brain is a unique kind of meat. It is the only “meat with attitude.” Madness, sheer madness.
The only way I can interpret this statement is that you believe that a human brain can be replaced by a ribeye steak, and the result would still be a being with a mind. And to believe otherwise is sheer madness. If you don't think such a transplant would result in a conscious being, it would be interesting to hear why, considering that the brain apparently isn't unique.goodusername
May 12, 2015
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@nkendall,
Anybody seen Eigenstat? I have been looking for him. Twice now I have asked the same questions and gotten no response; yet I see him around. I have several other very detailed questions about how the brain could do all these marvelous things he is claiming.
Have at it. Maybe you'll actually engage on this. We don't have to (and won't, I expect), but can establish a different pattern here that actually involves some engagement on the merits. Maybe? If you have something of substance to put to me that you think I've ignored, by all means just point it out, link to it, etc. I'm not so much a chump that I can be baited into "keep 'em busy with lots of homework requests" kinds of maneuvers (for example, occasionally people will ask me to "layout out my complete theory of cognition (or evolution, or...) in detail as a predicate for discussion -- that won't fly), but I do like good sharp questions, and doubly appreciate those who at least attempt to answer when the receive the same.
Regarding your comment at 14: “You are confusing the concept of abstraction with abstract concepts… They are not the same thing. The concept of “four”, or “four-ness”, or anything you might call “abstract” is still a physical brain state as all concepts are. You’ve conflated the abstract-ness of the referent with the abstract-ness of the symbol.”
I would like to go through this in some detail: How did that above composite thought originate in your brain? How is it represented in your brain? How is it registered in your consciousness?
Hmmm. That actually sounds suspiciously like the "maneuver" I just motioned toward, above. If memory serves, you were the guy that claimed that dreams were a proof against materialism because the the "HD Theater in our minds" could not be provisioned with enough streaming content and throughput by physical capacities of the brain? Without getting into that question here (!) this question sounds a bit like my asking you to layout your model of visual representation in the brain as a matter of "opening questions". Never mind that you likely don't have such a model, I think you can appreciate the enormous scope of such a question. Which is just to say, have it, but break things down into manageable chunks. Just a couple comments on the concept of "four" in lieu of a 26 page encyclical on concept formation. Six month old infants are able to discriminate between groups based number, provided the differences are large. For example, 6 month olds can distinguish between a group of 10 marbles and a group of 20 marbles reliably, but not a group of 10 marbles from a group of 12 marbles. This evidence from such young infants suggests an innate (or at least available at/near birth) conceptual capacity for building mental models of reality that contain and use mathematical relationships. "Four-ness" would be an example of this kind of relationship-holding as conceptual content. "Four-ness" is not a property of the four marbles I place on the table in front of a 1 year old child (or in front of a 35 year old adult, for that matter), but is conceptualized in the brain as a description of the relationship between objects -- what psychologists would call logico-grammatical knowledge. The reason I start with infants and children is because these are fundamental concepts that demonstrably obtain in normally-developing children at very young ages, indicating both an innate capacity for logico-grammatical knowledge and demonstrated skill in applying those concepts, utilizing the relationship-between-objects structure of the concepts in the first few years of growth (and in some rudimentary cases, in the first few months). So "four-ness" as a concept develops as a product of the constant model-building and model-refinement that humans begin at birth (and before), which is reinforced with consistent experiences with more and different experiences with objects as they make their way through the toddler to the pre-school years. Maybe that's a enough of a start to get you connecting into what you want to pursue here, maybe not. But please bear in mind that I'm happy to explain/defend/elaborate, but not available to throw darts at the dartboard over and over in hopes of stumbling upon your target.
These are just the high level questions, I have many details that need to covered.
The details are a better place to start. It's impractical and borderline trollish to ask for a treatise on cognition as the predicate for your detailed questions. Not accusing you of that here, but it's a risk in what you're asking, even if it's unintentional. I suggest going right for some concrete, detail oriented questions. That is much more likely to produce interesting and substantial discussions, here.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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Three questions to the materialists on this forum. 1. Do you agree that 'to know something' requires two opposite and complementary entities: a knower and a known? 2. If the answer is yes, please identify/define knower and known. 3. If the answer to #1 is no, please explain your position.Mapou
May 12, 2015
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E @ 75, thanks for the clarification. I take it E does not believe other types of meat (e.g., ribeye steaks, chicken breasts, etc.) have the capacity to deny propositions. Under materialism, the human brain is a unique kind of meat. It is the only "meat with attitude." Madness, sheer madness.Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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E @ 73: I guess we can add "patronizing bastard" to "asshat."Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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E @ 71: What is this “brain/mind” of which you speak? Is there some physical thing in your head other than your brain?
No. As i said quite clearly upthread, the mind is the activity of the brain, in the same sense that "walking" is an activity of my body. I can go find the post number and quote it here if you insist, but it's neither hard to find, nor the least bit vague in making this point.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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Anybody seen Eigenstat? I have been looking for him. Twice now I have asked the same questions and gotten no response; yet I see him around. I have several other very detailed questions about how the brain could do all these marvelous things he is claiming. Regarding your comment at 14: “You are confusing the concept of abstraction with abstract concepts… They are not the same thing. The concept of “four”, or “four-ness”, or anything you might call “abstract” is still a physical brain state as all concepts are. You’ve conflated the abstract-ness of the referent with the abstract-ness of the symbol.” I would like to go through this in some detail: How did that above composite thought originate in your brain? How is it represented in your brain? How is it registered in your consciousness? These are just the high level questions, I have many details that need to covered.nkendall
May 12, 2015
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E, I’m beginning to recognize a pattern here. E repeats Barry’s claim from the OP. E says, “that’s just stupid. I win.” OK E. If it makes you feel better.
I only have concluded that stupidity is a plausible explanation in one case, here, Barry. Rereading it, it's hard to find a more charitable, yet plausible explanation. Stupidity is almost certainly not the fundamental or even significant problem, here. There a substrate of bad values, and more than anything, just a lack of intellectual curiosity and an inclination toward intellectual laziness -- see your "tells" you signal regular with your gratuitous claims of "obviousness" and "of course!" for propositions that can only be viewed as matters-of-course as an exercise in apathy toward the subject matter. I feel much better engaging on the substance, even and especially when there are sharp points of strong disagreement. Your modus operandus is really just a form of trolling, so it's primarily an exercise in banal aggression. Happens all the time, can't be helped, and sometimes the trolls have the admin password to the site. I invite you to engage on the subject. Lots of interesting controversies to take up. But you have to invest some thought, and maybe a little creativity in your posts. You don't think enough of your supporters or you adversaries to do that, on any extended reading of your work. That's unfortunate. You have now established a very solid pattern, a strong commitment to the Composition Fallacy. I don't think that reflects stupidity. It just reflects laziness. I gave you a clear example of the problematic nature of your 'bag of chemicals' reflex with the example of Glucose, Formaldehyde, and Acetic Acid. Structure matters. I predict I won't have to wait long to see the Composition Fallacy trotted out again in one of your posts: since atoms can't be conscious, humans can't be conscious since they are made of atoms, etc. That's not a problem of mental horsepower, it's just intransigence. You're more than able, Barry, way over-qualified in terms of mental abilities to understand and engage. It's just not a goal for you, that is quite apparent in the body of your posts. That's your prerogative, but don't pretend the criticism you get is somehow anchored in the belief you can't do better (my 'stupid' exception above, which I stand by, notwithstanding). You can. You just don't have any interest in doing better, by all indications you put out here.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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E @ 71: What is this "brain/mind" of which you speak? Is there some physical thing in your head other than your brain?Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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@Barry,
If I am understanding you, the meat inside your head denies that an immaterial mind exists. Can you clarify something for me? Is it all of the meat in your head that denies that immaterial minds exist or is it just some subset of the meat in your head?
Assuming you mean "brain/mind" by meat, then a denial would be, as I understand it, a function of the brain as a whole, integrating sensory experience, counterfactual contemplation, logical analysis, language formulation and articulation, motor signals to various parts of the body to communicate said denial. Just reading, understanding, considering and replying to your question here implicates a large number of different functions of the brain. That said, I'm sure there are parts that aren't involved even so. So the denial would represent many parts of the brain working in concert, but not every part, and not all at the same time, necessarily.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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Is consciousness energy or matter? Neither? "Energy is not matter, so by definition it is not material. Energy can be converted to matter, and matter to energy. The conversion factor is the square of the speed of light. The 'true nature of energy' defies simple explanation. Thermodynamics says that the amount of energy in a closed system is conserved. Picture a hydrogen atom with its electron orbiting at a higher energy level (quantum number). The energy of this system is best represented by the potential energy of the electron in the electric field surrounding the proton in the nucleus, plus the kinetic energy of the electon's orbital motion. Quantum mechanics tells us that electron can't just decay into a slightly lower orbit like a satellite orbiting earth. Instead, it can only drop into an orbit at the next lower quantum number. That means the length of the electron orbit decreases by exactly one wavelength of the electron's wavefunction. The electron then has less potential energy and less kinetic energy. The only way for this orbit change to happen is for the atom to emit a photon whose energy is exactly the difference between the energies of the two orbits. Do you call this photon energy or do you call it matter? A scientist who is careful with his words probably won't call it either. It is a 'particle' which mediates the electromagnetic force. It has some properties of a particle and some properties of a wave. It has no rest mass and always travels at the speed of light. If it's moving, it's moving at the speed of light. If it's not moving, it doesn't exist. A photon can be thought of as a quantum or a packet of energy. We don't speak of energy as governing the way material things interact. We think in terms of forces. Physical chemistry is the study of properties and interactions of atoms based on the structure of the atoms themselves. As two hydrogen atoms approach, they begin to repel because of the electrostatic repulsion between the two protons. However, once the electrons begin orbiting both nucleii instead of just one, the complete assembly has a lower total energy than the two independent atoms. This is why the H2 molecule forms. As you study physics, matter, and energy, keep your question in mind. You gradually gain a better understanding of how they work. As you do, you realize more and more that we really don't know what matter and energy are."ppolish
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate, I'm about to sign off for the night. I have in mind the concept of a black hole. You read my post and you see the reference to a black hole. Are you thinking of the same black hole I am thinking of?Mung
May 12, 2015
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E, I'm beginning to recognize a pattern here. E repeats Barry's claim from the OP. E says, "that's just stupid. I win." OK E. If it makes you feel better.Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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@Barry,
5. The unified consciousness is immaterial. Here is a “problem” that neuroscience can never hope to address, much less solve. How can the unity of our consciousness be explained by discrete brain events? Do you perceive your own consciousness as this state followed by this state followed by this state followed by this state, ad infinitum? Of course not. Like everyone else you experience your own consciousness as a unified seamless whole. This is not surprising. In fact, it is necessary, because the “self” of which we are subjectively self-aware would not be much of a “self” unless it were a unified self. Thus, intentionality, subject-object duality, and all other aspects of consciousness depend on the existence of this unity.
What you've said here neither precludes neuroscience from addressing it or developing strong models for human consciousness --- unified in practice or just seeming so phenomenologically -- nor argues for the immateriality of our our consciousness. So there's no rebuttal to offer, here: you're "The unified consciousness is immaterial" isn't implicated by anything you've said. I might just as well shrug and stipulate, arguendo, that neuroscience indeed can never get traction on the Binding Problem. So now what? That stipulation in no way supports your claim. Further, if I grant, again, arguendo (sorry, but your penchant for misrepresentation in these discussions make such pedantic qualifications necessary!) that: "intentionality, subject-object duality, and all other aspects of consciousness depend on the existence of this unity". You're no closer to your claim #5 then when you started. This paragraph "isn't even wrong".eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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E, If I am understanding you, the meat inside your head denies that an immaterial mind exists. Can you clarify something for me? Is it all of the meat in your head that denies that immaterial minds exist or is it just some subset of the meat in your head? Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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E: First off, there exist no coherent materialistic scientific models of cognition or consciousness. NONE. I've read about several such models, and they all include massive explanatory gaps that are glossed over. That, to me, is the strongest scientific evidence that materialism is false -- that science can't begin to explain mind. A corollary of the fact that there are no such models is that for any model an expert in the field propounds, there are other experts in the field who call the first expert's theory garbage. It's much worse than the disagreements between evolutionists. Every materialist I've ever debated with cannot see where the poofery in the models lie, and just picks one of the selection of laughable models and goes with it. As far as I can tell in this debate, you can't understand the distinction between a concept and a representation of a concept. You basically deny that concepts exist, and assert that only representations of a concept exist. The problem is that to make this denial, you used abstract concepts/reasoning to do it. In other words, your very argument requires the use of a construct that you claim doesn't exist, and is thus self referentially incoherent. If you believe it is not, explain how you would make a piece of physical computer software store a concept in the sense your mind does. Let's say the concept of a "tree". I could put the dictionary definition of a tree, a bunch of pictures of a tree, an algorithm that can recognize trees, and a bunch of facts about trees on a computer, and the computer still doesn't understand "tree" as a concept. In other words, no amount of physical representations of a concept equals a concept. Period. This is where you will go into poofery land (emergence) and claim the problem is that the computer just needs LOTS of concepts (well those don't exist -- representations) in it at once, then it becomes a mind. You won't explain why adding more representations of concepts matters. To give another example, a computer can play chess, but it has no idea chess is a game. How would you explain to a computer the concept of a game? Something intelligent agents like humans do for fun. Uh oh, explaining that one concept requires you to explain a bunch of other concepts, like "intelligent" and "fun" (and "do" for that matter), which are far more difficult to explain. It's basically a regress where to store one concept requires other concepts. Minds understand concepts as atomic and specific, and a representation can never be either of those things. A child can grasp a concept immediately without having it be expressed in terms of other concepts. A computer can't grasp anything ever, nor can any other purely physical object.NetResearchGuy
May 12, 2015
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UDEditors: E's asshat mean-spirited mockery of KF and merely asshat mockery of SB and myself deleted. eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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@mung
eigenstate, so do you also hold that there is no aspect of thought or “mind,” no concept, that is not itself composed of matter?
Correct. To put it a way that more clearly indicates my view, any and all mental concepts I understand to be physical phenomena, natural activities of the brain.
If you and I share the same concept or thought or idea, that is incoherent unless we share the same matter in doing so? Thank you
"Same" is problematic as a term, here, but that's a good question. You and I may both reliably identify the same objects as "apple" or "not-apple", and we find very close similarities in what we might draw on a page if asked to "draw an apple". But these are isomorphisms, similarities to some to degree or another, not identities. That means that we can demonstrate "communicability" between our respective concepts of "apple", but they are not the "same" in any formal or sense of physical structure (for example, there is no 'magic configuration' of neurons that assembled in some particular fashion inherently "mean" or reify the concept of "apple"). So, no two instances of concepts are identical, and can't be, based on how neural patterns develop and operate in the brain. Even so, strong enough matches exist so that we can communicate, or respond in similarly predictable ways -- as I said, choosing the same objects presented to each of us independently as "apple" or "not-apple".
p.s. I apologize if this has already been asked. I haven’t caught up on the entire conversation yet.
Don't think so, but no worries either way.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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Just plain good common sense indeed. Our thoughts, about horses etc, are not material things. Now the horse is part of our memory. We have a material thing that includes the gorse. when we think of the horse we are actually observing a memory of the horse concept. Yet its our soul/heart thatr is doing the observing of this memory. Deniers of the soul must invent something in our head that does the observing.Robert Byers
May 12, 2015
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