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On Invoking Non-Physical Mental States to “Solve the Problem” of Consciousness

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A. Reciprocating Bill asks a question

In a comment to a recent post Reciprocating Bill asked why I believe invoking non-physical mental states “solves the problems of consciousness.” It is an interesting question, but not for the reason Bill intended. It is interesting because it betrays Bill’s fundamental misunderstanding of the argument he purports to be critiquing (I am not picking on Bill in particular; I am merely using his error as a platform to discuss the same error that materialists always make when discussing this issue). In this post I will show how Bill’s misunderstanding stems from his inability to view the world outside of the box of materialist metaphysics in which he has allowed himself to become trapped. I will also show that if Bill were ever able to climb out of that box and open his mind to a different, wider (and for that reason superior) ontological perspective, he would realize that consciousness is not a “problem” to be solved but a datum that must be accounted for in any robust ontology.

Here is Bill’s question in its entirety:

In Reference and Reality Hilary Putnam parenthetically remarked, “As Wittgenstein often pointed out, a philosophical problem is typically generated in this way: certain assumptions are made which are taken for granted by all sides in the subsequent discussion.”

I’ve often genuinely wondered why anyone believes that invoking dualism, and in particular an ontology that includes something like nonphysical mental states, solves the problems of consciousness, intentionality and so forth. It’s a fair question to ask how physical systems (like brains and their states) can be “about” other states, can be conscious, etc. But to respond to this difficulty by invoking a dualist ontology, and then assigning intentionality (and or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency) to the nonphysical side of one’s dualistic coin is to my ear an absolutely empty response.

That is because no one has the slightest notion of how a nonphysical mentality might instantiate intentional states (or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency), or how one might go about investigating those questions. How is a nonphysical mentality “about” something else? At least brain states offer many intriguing hooks vis the complex nature of sensory consciousness and representation that may or may not yield insights into this question as cognitive neuroscience progresses.

There is no science of non-physical mentality, nor do i see how there could be one. Ultimately, I suspect that the sequestering of phenomena such as intentionality, consciousness and agency within nonphysical mentality works for many simply because such qualities are smuggled in as the immaterial mind (or soul, or intelligence, or agency, or consciousness, or whatever) is defined as that which nonphysically bears intentionality, consciousness, agency, etc. independent of material states, To then “explain” those phenomena in nonphysical terms becomes essentially a exercise in tautology. But how or why that might be the case, or how to make that notion do any work, no one has clue.

B. The mind is immaterial

While a human is alive his mind and his brain are connected. No one doubts that. Just as assuredly, no one doubts that their own immaterial mind exists. And when I say no one doubts that, I include people like Sam Harris who say they do. Harris does not really doubt that his own mind exists. How do I know? Well, I am fairly sure Harris is not insane, and only an insane person asserts as false that which he must know to be true. It is an odd thing though. If Harris were to say “I’m a poached egg” they would put him in a padded room. But if he says the ontologically equivalent “I’m a meat robot,” they give him a book contract.

Denying that one’s own immaterial mind exists is nuts on the order of “I deny that the pronoun ‘I’ in this sentence has any antecedent.” And Sam Harris, like everyone else, knows for a certain fact that there is indeed an antecedent to that pronoun. Because the existence of one’s immaterial mind is self-evident, its existence can be denied only on pain of descending into patent absurdity. But that is not the only reason we can know with absolute certainty that our own immaterial mind exists. (Yes, I said “absolute” for that knowledge is not corrigible). Here are five more:

1. Thoughts are immaterial.

Think about a horse. Is the thought in your head about a horse an actual horse? Of course not. Is the thought in your head a material thing at all? Obviously not. Think about the number four. I don’t mean count four things. I mean think of the concept of “four.” Is the abstract concept of “four” a material thing? No. Is your thought about the abstract concept of “four” a material thing? No. It follows that thoughts are immaterial, and this is especially obvious when we are thinking about immaterial things such as abstract concepts.

Any attempt to deny this founders immediately on the shoals of the interface problem – how can an immaterial concept interface with a material object? On materialism, consciousness must be reducible to a configuration of physical things (whether we call those physical things “atoms” or “molecules” or “neurons” does not matter; the point is they are physical things). Consider any abstract concept; 2+2=4 will do. Merely saying 2+2=4 is represented somehow in the brain by a configuration of firing synapses does not get you there. 2+2=4 is represented in the pixels of the computer screen in front of you right now. Is your computer screen conscious? Obviously, an immaterial mind has no problem interfacing with an abstract immaterial concept. The burden is on the materialist who asserts that material things can interface with immaterial things to show how that can possibly be true.

2. Material objects cannot exhibit intentionality.

As the Wiki article states, “intentionality” is “the power of minds to be about, to represent, or to stand for things, properties and states of affairs.” Rocks do not exhibit intentionality. A rock does not, for example, have the capacity to assert a belief such as “Washington was the first president.” Similarly, the sentence “The group of oxygen atoms believed that Washington was the first president” is absurd. What is true for oxygen is also true for the atoms of the other elements of the body, i.e., carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, phosphorus, etc.

Suppose one gathers together all of the various elements that compose a human body (i.e., oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.) and mixes those chemicals up in exactly the same quantities and proportions that are found in a human body and puts it all in a bag. That bag of chemicals does not have any more capacity to assert a belief than a rock. Intentionality obviously exists; any attempt to deny its existence would be incoherent. It would be like saying “I believe there are no beliefs.” It follows, therefore, that intentionality exists and that it is not a property of a physical thing. Hence, it is a property of an immaterial mind.

In order to rebut this assertion the materialist would have to explain what is special about a bag of chemicals configured as the human body that it should all of a sudden acquire the capacity for intentionality when the same a different bag of the exact same chemicals does not. The usual response of “it’s all emergent and stuff” is a non-starter. Unless you show how the physical gives rise to the mental, “it’s emergent” is the equivalent of saying “it’s magic!”

3. Qualia are immaterial.

Suppose a person, let’s call her Mary, has a brain disease that makes her see everything in black and white. Mary watches the sun set every night and reads books on sunsets and has spectrometers that tell her all of the pertinent information about the colors of every sunset she watches such that she has complete information about the physical properties of sunsets. Suppose further that one day Mary is cured of the disease and that evening for the first time she sees the colors of the sunset in all the fullness of their glory.

Does Mary now know something about sunsets that she did not know before she was cured? Of course she does. She now has knowledge about her subjective experience of the various colors of the sunset that she did not have before. But Mary did not have any more information whatsoever about the physical properties of sunsets. It follows that her subjective experience of the sunset (e.g., how she might describe the reds as “warm”) cannot be reduced to the physical properties of the sunset which she already knew. Hence, qualia such as this cannot be reduced to physical properties and are therefore immaterial.

4. Subjective self-awareness is immaterial.

As I type this I am looking at an orange bottle on my desk. When I look at the bottle I experience subject-object duality. I experience myself as a subject and the bottle as an object perceived by the subject. Not only do bags of chemicals not have the capacity for intentionality, but also they do not have the capacity for perceiving subject-object duality or any other quality of subjective self-awareness. It follows that subjective self-awareness is the quality of an immaterial thing (i.e., the immaterial mind).

5. The unified consciousness is immaterial.

Here is a “problem” that neuroscience can never hope to address, much less solve. How can the unity of our consciousness be explained by discrete brain events? Do you perceive your own consciousness as this state followed by this state followed by this state followed by this state, ad infinitum? Of course not. Like everyone else you experience your own consciousness as a unified seamless whole. This is not surprising. In fact, it is necessary, because the “self” of which we are subjectively self-aware would not be much of a “self” unless it were a unified self. Thus, intentionality, subject-object duality, and all other aspects of consciousness depend on the existence of this unity.

Neuroscience cannot, in principle, account for this unity for a very simple reason – science operates at the level of composites. We are just a “pack of neurons” Crick says. But how can a pack (i.e., a composite) of individual physical pieces be aware of itself as a unified whole? The question is unanswerable. It follows that the unity of consciousness that every one of us experiences is not a property of a pack of neurons. It is a quality of an immaterial mind.

6. Summary

I will allow David Bentley Hart to summarize for us.

[The] intuitions of folk psychology are in fact perfectly accurate; they are not merely some theory about the mind that is either corrigible or dispensable. They constitute nothing less than a full and coherent phenomenological description of the life of the mind, and they are absolutely “primordial data,” which cannot be abandoned in favor of some alternative description without producing logical nonsense. Simply said, consciousness as we commonly conceive of it is quite real (as all of us, apart from a few cognitive scientists and philosophers, already know— and they know it too, really). And this presents a problem for materialism, because consciousness as we commonly conceive of it is also almost certainly irreconcilable with a materialist view of reality.

David Bentley Hart, The Experience of God

The material mind is a datum. As Hart says, it is the primordial datum. It is a datum that is known by everyone, because it cannot not be known. Thus, when I assert that the mind is immaterial I am not making an argument. I not advancing an “explanation.” I am not trying to “solve a problem.” I am merely stating a fact, a self-evident fact at that.

C. Answering Bill’s Questions.

With all of that as preface, let us turn to Bill’s questions.

1. I’ve often genuinely wondered why anyone believes that invoking dualism, and in particular an ontology that includes something like nonphysical mental states, solves the problems of consciousness, intentionality and so forth.

As I said, I am not attempting to solve the problem of consciousness. Further, I deny that such a thing as the “problem of consciousness” exists, if by “problem” one means a conundrum posed for a solution concerning whether the mind exists. I invoke an ontology that includes nonphysical mental states not to solve a problem but merely to account for the data. To do otherwise would be manifest error. It is an indubitable fact that nonphysical mental states exist, and therefore any ontology that has no room for nonphysical mental states is, by definition, erroneous, incomplete or both.

Facts are stubborn things as John Adams famously said. Denying facts does not make them go away. I readily admit that the fact of the existence of the immaterial mind is not anodyne to those who insist on a materialist metaphysics. But I would point out that if one’s metaphysics conflict with the facts, that is not a problem with the facts. It is a problem with one’s metaphysics.

2. It’s a fair question to ask how physical systems (like brains and their states) can be “about” other states, can be conscious, etc.

It was not intended to be a fair question Bill. It is a rhetorical question, asked only to emphasize that the only coherent answer is “they can’t be.”

3. But to respond to this difficulty by invoking a dualist ontology, and then assigning intentionality (and or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency) to the nonphysical side of one’s dualistic coin is to my ear an absolutely empty response.

What difficulty? There is no difficulty unless you’ve set out to do the impossible by ascribing the attributes of consciousness (intentionality, qualia, unity, etc.) to objects such as atoms or rocks or amalgamations of chemicals. No one “assigns” consciousness to immaterial minds any more than anyone assigns “seeing” to eyes. And that an immaterial mind is the locus of your consciousness is as evident as your eyes are the locus of your capacity to see (perhaps even more evident; blind people think after all). If acknowledging self-evident facts seems somehow “empty” to you, the problem is assuredly with your perception and not with the facts.

4. That is because no one has the slightest notion of how a nonphysical mentality might instantiate intentional states (or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency), or how one might go about investigating those questions. How is a nonphysical mentality “about” something else?

The “interaction” problem is a function of blinkered metaphysics. Adopt a more robust metaphysics and the problem vanishes. Hart again:

In Western philosophical tradition, for instance, neither Platonists, nor Aristotelians, nor Stoics, nor any of the Christian metaphysicians of late antiquity or the Middle Ages could have conceived of matter as something independent of “spirit,” or of spirit as something simply superadded to matter in living beings. Certainly none of them thought of either the body or the cosmos as a machine merely organized by a rational force from beyond itself. Rather, they saw matter as being always already informed by indwelling rational causes, and thus open to— and in fact directed toward— mind. Nor did Platonists or Aristotelians or Christians conceive of spirit as being immaterial in a purely privative sense, in the way that a vacuum is not aerial or a vapor is not a solid. If anything, they understood spirit as being more substantial, more actual, more “supereminently” real than matter, and as in fact being the pervasive reality in which matter had to participate in order to be anything at all. The quandary produced by early modern dualism— the notorious “interaction problem” of how an immaterial reality could have an effect upon a purely material thing —was no quandary at all, because no school conceived of the interaction between soul and body as a purely extrinsic physical alliance between two disparate kinds of substance.

David Bentley Hart, The Experience of God

5. At least brain states offer many intriguing hooks vis the complex nature of sensory consciousness and representation that may or may not yield insights into this question as cognitive neuroscience progresses.

If by “intriguing hooks” you mean facile speculations about how the unbridgeable ontological gulf between the physical and mental is not so unbridgeable after all, I might agree. But if you are actually holding out hope that the gulf will be bridged, you are bound to be disappointed, because the mind is not the brain.  Materialists are addicted to debt.  The constantly issue epistemic promissory notes that a moment of ontological reflection would reveal they cannot possibly pay.  Bill, the bottom line is this:  Neuroscience will continue to progress, but it will never progress to the point where it do the impossible — collapse the distinction between the ontological categories “physical” and “mental.”

6. There is no science of non-physical mentality, nor do i see how there could be one.

That is kind of funny, because you appear to be saying in all earnestness that if a fact cannot be investigated through the methods of science, it is a problem with the fact (and not merely evidence of the limitations of science). Let’s unpack this. You seem to be advancing an argument that can be broken down as follows:

There are no facts except those revealed to us by science
Science has not revealed to us the existence of an immaterial mind
Therefore, immaterial minds do not exist.

Surely you know that the major premise cannot possibly be correct as a matter of simple and indubitable logic – because that premise itself has not been revealed to us by science. Therefore, if it is true it must as a result be false. For another thing, as we have already seen, the existence of the immaterial mind is an undeniable fact. Therefore, any argument that leads to the conclusion that it is not a fact must, by definition, be faulty.

7. Ultimately, I suspect that the sequestering of phenomena such as intentionality, consciousness and agency within nonphysical mentality works for many simply because such qualities are smuggled in as the immaterial mind (or soul, or intelligence, or agency, or consciousness, or whatever) is defined as that which nonphysically bears intentionality, consciousness, agency, etc. independent of material states, To then “explain” those phenomena in nonphysical terms becomes essentially a exercise in tautology. But how or why that might be the case, or how to make that notion do any work, no one has clue.

The only reason you suspect that is because of the poverty of your metaphysics. Free yourself. Allow yourself to think beyond the comfortable contours of your metaphysical box, and you will see possibilities you were never able to see before. I promise.

Comments
Barry,
Suppose one gathers together all of the various elements that compose a human body (i.e., oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.) and mixes those chemicals up in exactly the same quantities and proportions that are found in a human body and puts it all in a bag. That bag of chemicals does not have any more capacity to assert a belief than a rock. Intentionality obviously exists; any attempt to deny its existence would be incoherent. It would be like saying “I believe there are no beliefs.” It follows, therefore, that intentionality exists and that it is not a property of a physical thing. Hence, it is a property of an immaterial mind. In order to rebut this assertion the materialist would have to explain what is special about a bag of chemicals configured as the human body that it should all of a sudden acquire the capacity for intentionality when the same a different bag of the exact same chemicals does not.
If the various components that make up a human body were mixed together, I don't believe that the pile of matter would be conscious, think, or feel, unless the atoms were configured into specific configurations. I believe that the reason for this is that consciousness and mind (and life) are a property of those components only with certain configurations. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that you also believe that if configured in certain ways that the pile of matter would attain consciousness and mind. In fact, you probably believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that a human body with consciousness could be deconstructed, and then reconstructed, over and over again, and that consciousness and mind would be attained - every time - that the body is reconstructed, and yet, you still believe that consciousness/mind are not the result of that configuration... but of... something else? If you believe that the body in the preceding thought experiment does attain consciousness/mind each time it is reconstructed, how do you believe that the consciousness/mind is actually attained (since you don't believe that matter, of any configuration, can actually produce consciousness/mind)?goodusername
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate
No, the map is not the territory, Barry. What is in my head is a concept, a physical brain state that corresponds to my metarepresentational correlates for “horse”.
How do you get from the horse to the concept of a horse? Where does the concept of horse come from and what is its relationship to the actual horse that is being conceived (of)?
The concept of “four”, or “four-ness”, or anything you might call “abstract” is still a physical brain state as all concepts are.
Does a person with a million concepts weigh more than a person will a thousand concepts all other things being equal? If not, why not? Since all physical things are extended in space, does that mean that the concept of a large physical thing, such as a galaxy, takes up more room in the head than the concept of a smaller physical thing, such as a horse? If not, why not? If concepts and brain states were physical, they would be constantly changing. So, is the concept of horse and its attendant brain state always changing? If so, which concept would be representative of the horse, the early brain state or the late brain state?
Map != Territory. These are novice errors.
So, you agree that the map is not the territory. Excellent. Define the map and define the territory. Why are they different? How can they even be different under materialism?StephenB
May 12, 2015
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Ad hominem: The idea that ‘the mind is the brain’ is only welcomed by those who suffer from boundlessly low self-esteem.Daniel King
May 12, 2015
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Eigenstate: The mind is the brain.
The idea that ‘the mind is the brain’ is only welcomed by those who suffer from boundlessly low self-esteem. If someone holds that his rationality is first and foremost dictated by blind chemical processes, then what IQ score can such a person expect?Box
May 12, 2015
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Repeat... eigenstate @14 Regarding your comment: “You are confusing the concept of abstraction with abstract concepts… They are not the same thing. The concept of “four”, or “four-ness”, or anything you might call “abstract” is still a physical brain state as all concepts are. You’ve conflated the abstract-ness of the referent with the abstract-ness of the symbol.” Walk me through this: How did that above composite thought originate in your brain? How is it represented in the brain? How is it registered in your consciousness?nkendall
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate, I have to confess, I changed my first response to you in this thread to something less insulting and less confrontational. :D I am happy I chose to do so. Interesting discussion.Mung
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate, so do you also hold that there is no aspect of thought or "mind," no concept, that is not itself composed of matter? If you and I share the same concept or thought or idea, that is incoherent unless we share the same matter in doing so? Thank you p.s. I apologize if this has already been asked. I haven't caught up on the entire conversation yet.Mung
May 12, 2015
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@Mung
eigenstate, thank you for your answers.
You are welcome, sir.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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@Barry,
4. Subjective self-awareness is immaterial. As I type this I am looking at an orange bottle on my desk. When I look at the bottle I experience subject-object duality. I experience myself as a subject and the bottle as an object perceived by the subject. Not only do bags of chemicals not have the capacity for intentionality, but also they do not have the capacity for perceiving subject-object duality or any other quality of subjective self-awareness. It follows that subjective self-awareness is the quality of an immaterial thing (i.e., the immaterial mind).
If you're right, Barry, than water is necessarily not wet. Is water wet, even though a "bag of hydrogen or oxygen atoms" is not wet, Barry? This is yet another conspicuous instance of the Composition Fallacy.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate, thank you for your answers.Mung
May 12, 2015
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@Barry,
3. Qualia are immaterial. Suppose a person, let’s call her Mary, has a brain disease that makes her see everything in black and white. Mary watches the sun set every night and reads books on sunsets and has spectrometers that tell her all of the pertinent information about the colors of every sunset she watches such that she has complete information about the physical properties of sunsets. Suppose further that one day Mary is cured of the disease and that evening for the first time she sees the colors of the sunset in all the fullness of their glory. Does Mary now know something about sunsets that she did not know before she was cured? Of course she does. She now has knowledge about her subjective experience of the various colors of the sunset that she did not have before. But Mary did not have any more information whatsoever about the physical properties of sunsets. It follows that her subjective experience of the sunset (e.g., how she might describe the reds as “warm”) cannot be reduced to the physical properties of the sunset which she already knew. Hence, qualia such as this cannot be reduced to physical properties and are therefore immaterial.
Doesn't follow. Restored color-sensing in her retinas (new physical inputs) provides new information to the brain and new percepts to integrate into memories and the process of visual integration. She can't have complete information about the sensing of red if she doesn't the physical capabilities of perceiving red-as-red (and not as grayscale gradients). I believe this is the position of Jackson, the originator of this thought experiment. The structural problem in the thought experiment, eventually identified by Jackson himself, is an equivocation on "know". Mary has new "circuitry available" for memory and visual processing, but this is not propositional knowledge. She has new abilities, but doesn't "know" anything she didn't know before, propositionally. This formulation lacks a crucial aspect of Jackson's "Mary's Room" argument, name that Mary has complete access to all available information about vision, perception, cognition in humans. Here's Jackson's own presentation:
She specializes in the neurophysiology of vision and acquires, let us suppose, all the physical information there is to obtain about what goes on when we see ripe tomatoes, or the sky, and use terms like ‘red’, ‘blue’, and so on. She discovers, for example, just which wavelength combinations from the sky stimulate the retina, and exactly how this produces via the central nervous system the contraction of the vocal chords and expulsion of air from the lungs that results in the uttering of the sentence ‘The sky is blue’.…
As you've stated it, it's not a challenge. I've responded to what you must have meant to render as a substantial challenge - Jackson's Knowledge Argument. In any case, this is a well-worn debate that isn't even correctly presented here, let alone offering something new agains this background: Qualia: The Knowledge Argumenteigenstate
May 12, 2015
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"Reciprocating Bill asked why I believe invoking non-physical mental states “solves the problems of consciousness." It depends on what you consider the problem of consciousness. Two problems are: 1) Chalmer's hard problem. 2) The empirical evidence from psychical research and parapsychology that the brain does not produce consciousness. That consciousness is non-physical is a direct conclusion from the evidence produced by psychical research and from parapsychology. That conclusion also helps to explain the hard problem. There is no way to explain subjective experiences, qualia, why the color blue looks like blue by means of any physical process. If consciousness is non-physical then it can have properties unknown to physics that could explain qualia.Jim Smith
May 12, 2015
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I can't imagine anyone even conceiving of a material mind. Quite barmy. It's like trying to imagine, 'material music' or 'material poetry'. Synesthesia to the power of infinity.Axel
May 12, 2015
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Eigenstate: This represents a category error.
Given materialism, to say that some concept 'represents a category error' is making a category error. Obviously thoughts are nothing but physical processes and only a fool like Eigenstate would hold that there are errant physical processes. This brings us to the point that there are no true and untrue physical processes and consequently no true and untrue thoughts. From which we can deduce that materialism makes no sense whatsoever....Box
May 12, 2015
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Good grief E! Did you even read the first sentence of the Wiki article you linked to:
Uh, yes. I am familiar. I brought the term into the conversation, and provided the link. Cartesian Theater doe NOT refer to "Cartesian Metaphysics", but rather the remaining intuition about the immaterial mind -- it's not a substance or soul error, as per Descartes ideas on the matter. It's the homunculus error, that bit that persists, and which you continue to propound. And it's not just you -- you're more of a thoroughgoing dualist so far as I can tell (do you believe in an immortal/immaterial soul?). Many putative materialists unwittingly or otherwise indulge their "homunculus intuitions", unaware that they are committing the same error you are. They do not get trapped by the "soul intuition", perhaps, but they still imagine minds as "Cartesian Theaters".eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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E, I have to go to a board meeting. You might take a stab at answering SB's questions at 29.Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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E @ 40:
Do you suppose you have immaterial thoughts, an immaterial mind that interacts with your brain, but that is NOT the brain? If so, this applies. Again, you’re just not pay attention to what is being said, here.
E, go back and read the OP where I address this very issue. And you say I am the one who is not paying attention.Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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Quantum Physics showed that matter does not exist. Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRMJimFit
May 12, 2015
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@Barry, Ok, you edited your comment after I replied to it. Here's the new version:
E, is your calculator conscious? If not, then why do you assume that it has anything to do with consciousness.
I'm asking as a matter of giving you answer to your question about the mass of a concept or thought? It's not clear that a thought as a physical phenomenon has a measurable mass, that "mass for a thought", is a coherent concept. If it is, then we should be able to gauge the mass of much simpler electrical/computing operations. If you can describe how you would validate the physicality of a calculator operation by measuring its mass, I will have a good guide how to answer your question. Failing that, I don't thing "mass" is derivable as a quantity for an electrical/computing operation. We can measure the mass of the computing machinery itself, but the electrical state changes don't have "mass boundaries" to measure, so far as I'm aware. If I'm wrong, your short exposition on measuring the mass of a calculator will demonstrate how to apply that to the brain in support of the idea that a thought has mass, in efforts to "massify" concepts and thoughts as you requested. That is what it has do with consciousness.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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Good grief E! Did you even read the first sentence of the Wiki article you linked to:
'Cartesian theater' is a derisive term coined by philosopher and cognitive scientist Daniel Dennett to refer pointedly to a defining aspect of what he calls Cartesian materialism, which he considers to be the often unacknowledged remnants of Cartesian dualism in modern materialistic theories of the mind.
Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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@Barry,
E, is your calculator conscious?
No. How would you measure the mass of a calculator operation, Barry? Or do suppose the calculator's computations is "immaterial" as a "massless" activity?eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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@Barry,
That’s funny. As the OP makes abundantly clear, I reject Cartesian metaphysics; yet E tells me my failure stems from accepting it.
Good grief, Barry. "Cartesian Theater" != "Cartesian Metaphysics". See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_theater "Cartesian Theater" points at the lingering intuitions about "immaterial mind" that remain in popular thinking about cognition as contrasted to the Cartesian metaphysics of an immaterial soul, or "maximal dualism". Descartes' metaphysics have been largely abandoned, even by most theists and other dualists (see for instance the prevalence of "property dualism" over "substance dualism" today), but "Cartesian Theater" refers to the intuition about an "homuculus" that "sees" brain activity (hence the word "theater" in the term) and does the thinking apart from the brain and based on what is on the "screen of the brain". Do you suppose you have immaterial thoughts, an immaterial mind that interacts with your brain, but that is NOT the brain? If so, this applies. Again, you're just not pay attention to what is being said, here.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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E, is your calculator conscious? If not, then why do you assume that it has anything to do with consciousness. Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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@Barry,
eigenstate, as I said previously, it is no one (including you) actually believes the immaterial mind does not exist. When one says they don’t believe the immaterial mind exists they start saying insane things like “the concept of “four” is a physical brain state.”
It's worse than that, Barry. "Immaterial mind" is not even meaningful, and that problem notwithstanding, it's incoherent as soon as you suppose it interacts materially, for then it's by definition a part of materialist ontology. Declaring it's "obviousness to Barry" and it's "insanity" are just auto-biographical revelations about you, Barry. They aren't substantive to the question of how cognition works, are not probative with respect to models of consciousness. It's just self-indulgent fluff. It's your blog, you're welcome to indulge yourself all you like, but it's still fluff.
All physical things have mass. I will believe that the concept of four is a physical brain state when you tell me how much it weighs.
If you have a handheld calculator, and you press the "=" key, electrical signals fire in the calculator. It's a physical process, well known, observable, measure in terms of electrical voltage, etc. What is the "mass" of an operation of the calculator in your hand? It's not clear what "mass" applies to, or how it would be measured for such an operation. But if you suppose that an "=" operation from pressing the key on the calculator is a a physical process, and there for "has a mass", then your recipe for measuring the mass of that event will give me the basis for your measurement of a thought. An electron in that calculator, or in your brain has a discrete mass, but the electron is not "owned" by any function of the calculator; electrons travel through the circuits and effect state changes, but are not "mass of the operation", anymore than electrons traveling through your synapses are "mass for a particular thought". To they extent they are "owned" by a computing operation or a human thought, they are ephemeral, and transient. In any case, if you can describe how you would measure the mass of a computing operation in a calculator, I will have good guide as to how to answer your question. Brains, like electric circuits that compute (the brain is an electrical circuit) have the capacity for a larger number of different states, all "mass constant" --- this is the point in asking you about the mass of an "=" operation in a calculator. The system has a discrete mass, and a finite capacity for states, but the discrete states do not map to a "discrete mass". If I'm wrong about this, your recipe for measuring the mass of the "=" operation in your handy calculator should be able to show this. ETA: blockquoteeigenstate
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate @14 Regarding your comment: "You are confusing the concept of abstraction with abstract concepts... They are not the same thing. The concept of “four”, or “four-ness”, or anything you might call “abstract” is still a physical brain state as all concepts are. You’ve conflated the abstract-ness of the referent with the abstract-ness of the symbol." Walk me through this: How did that above composite thought originate in your brain? How is it represented in the brain? How is it registered in your consciousness?nkendall
May 12, 2015
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E @ 10
You can’t (I can’t) feel yourself thinking, anymore than you can feel a neurosurgeon’s gloved finger poking around in your cerebral cortex . . .
E @ 14
The concept of “four”, [is] still a physical brain state . . .
I see. So I can’t feel the surgeon touching my cerebral cortex, but the surgeon can feel the abstract concept of four that is a physical thing in my brain. :-) Madness. Sheer madness.Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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E @ 32: The failure is the intuition that this is an immaterial “thing” happening in Cartesian Theater in our minds.
That's funny. As the OP makes abundantly clear, I reject Cartesian metaphysics; yet E tells me my failure stems from accepting it.
Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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E @ 27:
If the concept “2+2=4? were wholly accounted for as a physical brain state, how would the world be different, your view?
I will answer this question when you answer this question: If circles were square, how would the world be different in your view?Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate, as I said previously, no one (including you) actually believes the immaterial mind does not exist. When someone says they don't believe the immaterial mind exists, the next thing they do is start saying insane things like "the concept of "four" is a physical brain state." I will believe that the concept of four is a physical brain state when you tell me how much it weighs. In the mean time, perhaps you can answer SB's questions at 29. Also, calm down son. Your posts are the virtual equivalent of screaming and spewing droplets of spittle.Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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@Barry,
Suppose one gathers together all of the various elements that compose a human body (i.e., oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.) and mixes those chemicals up in exactly the same quantities and proportions that are found in a human body and puts it all in a bag. That bag of chemicals does not have any more capacity to assert a belief than a rock.
Structure matters, Barry. This is fundamental to understanding the world around you. Here's an easy to understand example that demonstrates your error in thinking about this: Formaldehyde, Acetic Acid, and Glucose all have the same empirical formula: CH20. This means that each of these molecules uses carbon, hydrogen and oxygen atoms in the ratio of 1C, 2H and one O. Formaldehyde has just one copy of the set: CH2O. Acetic acid uses two copies of the set: C2H4O2. Glucose uses six copies of the set: C6H12O6 So if you have a "bag" with a million carbon atoms, 2 million hydrogen atoms, and a million oxygen atoms, what do you have? Undefined until the structure of their combination is specified. These raw materials can be assembled into all formaldehyde, all glucose or all ascetic acid, or any mix of the three molecules. Whatever combination you choose, the structure matters. On one structure, formaldehyde, on another, glucose. Same raw materials, all that differs is the structure the atoms are configured with. And yet, from these same atoms, mirabile dictu! compounds with very different characteristics and properties (imagine the glucose in your body getting switched out for formaldehyde -- it's all the same atoms, and in the same ratios!) result. Same kinds of atoms. Same ratios. All that differs is the structure. And the structure makes all the difference. If you can understand this simple bit of pedagogy, you will understand why your claim here doesn't follow. One cannot assert that what is true of the diffuse components of a structured whole is true of the structured whole. If your line of thinking here, glucose and formaldehyde and acetic acid would be the same compounds.
Intentionality obviously exists; any attempt to deny its existence would be incoherent. It would be like saying “I believe there are no beliefs.” It follows, therefore, that intentionality exists and that it is not a property of a physical thing. Hence, it is a property of an immaterial mind.
There's that weasel word, again -- "obviously". When a materialist -- say a thoroughgoing eliminativist like Patricia Churchland -- suggests that intentionality does not exist, or beliefs don't exist, they are not denying the phenomena, but rather our intuitive notions about those phenomena. In other words, what Barry supposes is obvious about "beliefs" -- for example that they are "immaterial thoughts" is mistaken, misconceived. The brain state that corresponds with "belief" exists, uncontroversial for Churchland, but is just not like what traditional human intuitions suppose. Again, the failure point is not in identifying a phenomenon we might describe as "belief" or "about-ness" toward a referent concept or object. The failure is the intuition that this is an immaterial "thing" happening in Cartesian Theater in our minds. In terms of intentionality, we have no empirical basis for maintaining the idea that our thoughts have a discrete sentence-like structure as propositions. Rather, that we must articulate them into communicable language constructs, and this with error, difficulty and ambiguity hazards. We don't think the way our naïve intuition commonly suggests, on the scientific view of human cognition. Denials of "belief" and "intentionality" and even "consciousness", then, are denials of veridicality of our intuitions about these phenomena, not denials of the phenomena themselves. They are real, physical, and increasingly observable/testable phenomena; they just don't resemble Barry's "obvious" intuitions about those phenomena.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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