Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

On the poverty of scientific naturalism as an explanation: A reply to my critics

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In my recent post, On the impossibility of replicating the cell: A problem for naturalism, I argued that naturalism, even if true, cannot be shown to be true or even probable – in which case, I asked, why should rational people believe it? The responses of my critics reveal a real poverty of thinking on the part of those who believe evolution to be a totally unguided process.

The “naturalism” that I criticized in my post was not methodological naturalism (which makes no claims about the nature of reality, but merely states that non-naturalistic explanations of reality don’t properly count as scientific ones). My target was a more robust kind of naturalism, which I termed “scientific naturalism”: namely, “the view that there is nothing outside the natural world, by which I mean the sum total of everything that behaves in accordance with scientific laws [or laws of Nature].” Defenders of this view – whom I’ll call “scientific naturalists” – not only claim that their view is true; they also claim that their view is rational, and that everyone should be a scientific naturalist. That arrogant assertion gets up the noses of a lot of people, and I thought it deserved to be taken down a peg.

The thrust of my post was that before a viewpoint can be shown to be rational, it must be shown to be true or at least probable. And if the viewpoint in question depends on other assertions being true, those assertions must be backed up in the same way. Scientific naturalism requires us to accept that life could have arisen from non-living matter via totally unguided processes – in other words, that the theory of abiogenesis is true. However, there are good grounds (which I summarized in my post) for believing that it will never be possible, even in principle, for scientists to construct a model demonstrating that abiogenesis is true (i.e. that a feasible pathway leading from inorganic chemicals to the first cell actually exists) or even probably true (i.e. that such a pathway probably exists). Nor is it a truth of logic or mathematics that life must have arisen via an unguided process. This is an important point, as scientific naturalists are also prone to asserting that there are two and only two reliable sources of knowledge: all knowledge claims, they say, must be supported by either a rational demonstration from the axioms of logic or mathematics, or empirical facts which scientists can investigate. But we have seen that abiogenesis cannot be demonstrated in either fashion. That being the case, I concluded that since abiogenesis is a presupposition of scientific naturalism, it necessarily follows that scientific naturalism cannot be shown to be true or even probable – from which I drew the conclusion that scientific naturalism cannot be described as rational, in the sense of something we ought to believe.

Readers will notice that I did not argue that scientific naturalism was false. I merely argued that even if it were true, there can be no way of showing that we ought to believe it to be true. A scientific naturalist who was impressed by my demonstration could still go on believing naturalism to be true, but (s)he could no longer argue that scientific naturalism is a more rational worldview than its rival, supernaturalism.

It should also be noted that although I remarked in my post that a detailed model of the cell – assuming one could be built – would be a very effective way of making the idea of Intelligent Design appealing to people, I made no attempt to argue that the theory of Intelligent Design was more rational than scientific naturalism. Consequently, even if someone could show that Intelligent Design was no more rational than scientific naturalism, that would still leave the possibility that neither view was rational, and that in the end, one has to make a fundamental choice to either accept or deny the reality of a supernatural Being. That’s a viewpoint known as fideism, and it has its defenders. Alvin Plantinga, for instance, has argued that even if someone had no good grounds for believing in God, it would still make sense for that person to adhere to a belief in God, as a “properly basic” belief. (By contrast, belief in a “Great Pumpkin” or a “Flying Spaghetti Monster” doesn’t qualify, as pumpkins and spaghetti are by definition natural objects, and are therefore incapable of explaining the existence of the natural world.)

Does my argument commit the “Tu Quoque” fallacy?

Keith S, a well-known ID critic from The Skeptical Zone, responded that my argument could be used equally well against Intelligent Design. After all, if scientific naturalism shouldn’t be called “rational” because it can never be demonstrated, even in principle, then by the same token, its contrary, supernaturalism, shouldn’t be called rational either, because it can never be demonstrated either. As he put it (see here, here and here):

I keep offering free advice to IDers that they never accept. I tell them “if you think you’ve found a whiz-bang argument against your opponent’s position, stop for a minute and ask yourself a simple question: Could this argument be used against me?”…

I replied (briefly) to Keith S by pointing out that I wasn’t attempting to argue for Intelligent Design, but against scientific naturalism, and I added that my reductio only worked if we assume (as scientific naturalists do) that logic and empirical facts were the only two valid sources of knowledge. Intelligent Design theorists don’t make this restrictive assumption, so the same argument cannot be deployed against them. Keith S was not impressed. He contended that if I believed there were other valid sources of knowledge, then I needed to justify them, and he demanded to know precisely how the Intelligent Designer had made the first cell. Where, he asked, were the nitty-gritty details? In his own words (see here, here):

You evade your own argument only if you can demonstrate the existence and reliability of your third source of knowledge. Merely believing in it is insufficient…

Says Barry [Arrington], who of course can supply all the “steenkin’ details” about how the designer designed and implemented the cell. Right, Barry?…

Do you think that naturalism and theism are both false, since neither can supply the “steenkin’ details” you require?…

In reply: I believe there are at least two additional valid sources of knowledge: metaphysics (which is not required in order for Intelligent Design arguments to work, but which is often appealed to in the classic philosophical arguments for God’s existence) and abductive logic, or inference to the best explanation, which is commonly used in law courts, in detective and forensics work, and by scientists formulating hypotheses (especially in the field of archaeology). The justification of metaphysics is that the scientific enterprise presupposes the truth of certain basic facts about the world which cannot be tested by science, but must be assumed by it, in order for scientific investigation to work at all. These metaphysical truths, which are presupposed by science, imply the existence of a Creator of the cosmos (see here for a post of mine explaining why, with reference to the problem of induction). The justification of abductive logic is that scientific methodology – and for that matter, law – relies on the practice of inference to the best explanation (see here for a discussion).

Another commenter, Learned Hand, offered a similar criticism:

Come to think of it, we also can’t model an intelligent being creating a cell. No intelligence we have ever observed is capable of it. If we apply your standards, why would we prefer that impossibility over any other?

Now, it’s certainly true that no intelligent human being has ever created a cell from scratch, or even a complete simulation of one. But there’s no reason in principle why a super-intelligent being outside our universe couldn’t do so – especially if that being had a big enough computer! And for that matter, scientists have managed to put the synthetic copy of DNA into a living bacterial cell from which the natural DNA had been removed, although that is still a long, long way from building life.

A metaphysical illusion?

Another commenter, RDFish, weighed in with a critique of Intelligent Design methodology:

The essential confusion of ID is the assumption that there are two different types of causes in the world. ID calls the first type of cause “natural causes”, meaning “causes that proceed according physical law”. The second type of cause it calls “intelligent causes”, which is supposed not to follow physical law. ID attempts to show that certain features of the universe cannot have arisen by means of “natural causes”, and this supposedly justifies the conclusion that these features are best explained by “intelligent causes”.

The mistake, of course, is the assumption that there is any such thing as a cause that somehow transcends physical cause. ID often refers to physical processes as “unguided”, implying that in contrast “intelligent causes” are guided” by something that is not itself a physical process…

Once you remove this metaphysical assumption from ID, what ID is left with is “Certain features of the universe cannot currently be explained by means of any known cause. Therefore, some other, currently unknown cause must be responsible”.

First, even if this criticism were correct, it would have absolutely nothing to do with the question I posed in my original post, which was: if we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true or even probably true, then why should we believe it?

Second, RDFish’s assertion that ID proponents assume that intelligent causes are non-physical is factually mistaken. What we assume is that intelligent causes have the distinguishing property of being able to create highly improbable patterns which can, nevertheless, be described very succinctly in words. That’s an assumption that has been repeatedly validated by experience.

Finally, the conclusion we draw is not that “some other, currently unknown cause must be responsible” for the specified complex patterns we find in Nature, but that an intelligent cause capable of describing these patterns, representing them to itself, and constructing them in accordance with its own specifications, must be responsible for their occurrence in Nature.

Building the cell: Problem solved?

Keith S provided an interesting topic for discussion when he claimed that scientists had already built a simulation of a simple bacterial cell, thus refuting my claim that we can’t build a replica of the cell, down to the atomic level:

As others have pointed out, it’s rarely necessary to simulate at the atomic level, and in fact it’s usually wasteful to do so. Smart modelers adjust the granularity of the simulation to fit the problem they’re tackling.

In any case, computational biologists have already managed to do some amazing things with their simulations. See this New York Times article from a couple of years ago:

Software Emulates Lifespan of Entire Organism

The simulation, which runs on a cluster of 128 computers, models the complete life span of the cell at the molecular level, charting the interactions of 28 categories of molecules — including DNA, RNA, proteins and small molecules known as metabolites, which are generated by cell processes.

“The model presented by the authors is the first truly integrated effort to simulate the workings of a free-living microbe, and it should be commended for its audacity alone,” wrote two independent commentators, Peter L. Freddolino and Saeed Tavazoie, both of Columbia University, in an editorial accompanying the article. “This is a tremendous task, involving the interpretation and integration of a massive amount of data.”

I’d like to make three brief points in reply here. First, the skeptical question I posed for scientific naturalists in my post was not, “Can we model the cell?” but “If we have no hope of ever proving the idea that the cell could have arisen through unguided natural processes, or even showing this idea to be probably true, then how can we possibly be said to know for a fact that this actually happened?” and finally, “Since we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance,… then why should we believe it?” Not even Keith S claims that scientists have shown how a bacterial cell could have arisen from non-living chemicals; all he claims is that scientists have simulated the workings of such a cell. Even if that were true, it doesn’t address my skeptical question about abiogenesis and about the rationality of scientific naturalism.

Second, Keith S’s claim that scientists have built a simulation of a bacterial cell turns out to have been grossly exaggerated. I’m not blaming Keith S; in this case, the fault lies with the New York Times, whose sloppy reporting trenchantly criticized by Professor Jonathan A. Eisen, of the University of California, Davis. Professor Eisen’s research focuses on the “phylogenomics of novelty” in microbes. On his blog, Eisen attacked the New York Times report:

Umm – claims of first full computer simulation of an organism seem, well, way way overhyped…

one of the worst NY Times science articles I have seen in a while…

I do not think they made a complete model …

Another commenter, Steffen Christensen, voiced his agreement:

Aye: a model is NOT a complete simulation…

There are what, 1000s of molecule types in a typical cell, and their model tracks <30?!?

They might’ve done a better job of it. You know, modeled spatial interactions, 1000s of moieties, etc…

As it is, I just feel… disappointed. At science reportage, mostly.

Finally, Keith S’s contention that it’s not necessary to simulate the cell at the atomic level invites the obvious retort: “What level do you think is required in order to demonstrate the chemical feasibility of abiogenesis, and why?” The chemists I have met are not shy of talking about atomic interactions. Nor are the scientists who get their names published in the New York Times for describing a plausible chemical route to the synthesis of a nucleotide (itself consisting of a mere couple of dozen atoms) shy of talking about what goes on at the atomic level. Where else could one begin, if one is addressing the problem of how life could have formed spontaneously, via a step-by-step unguided series of processes?

I’d now like to discuss the various ways in which a sophisticated scientific naturalist might have responded to the argument in my post.

Scientific naturalism as a provisional working hypothesis?

One way in which a sophisticated scientific naturalist might have answered my argument would have been to respond: “You’re right: scientific naturalism is not something we ought to believe to be true. Nevertheless, it is quite reasonable for a scientist to adopt it provisionally, as a working hypothesis.”

That’s not a bad response, but there’s an obvious objection to it: another scientist, who was impressed with the arguments advanced by Dr. Douglas Axe regarding the astronomical unlikelihood of a Darwinian explanation of protein folds, might well decide to adopt the contrary hypothesis of Intelligent Design as a provisional working hypothesis. (After all, we do know that intelligent designers are capable of creating complex structures which fold up in a very specific way.) Which scientist is behaving rationally? Or are neither of them being rational?

Is agnosticism a viable scientific option?

Another response that a sophisticated naturalist might make would be to suggest that scientists should conduct their investigations of the riddle of life’s origin in a spirit of agnosticism. One commenter who argued for this view was Alicia Renard, who wrote (see here, here and here):

Who is claiming that life on Earth got started via purely physical and chemical processes is a fact? Being only able to detect material processes ourselves we cannot rule out the possibility that something goes on “invisibly”, “in other planes of existence”, immaterially” of which we are completely unaware… As soon as you postulate a material effect from an immaterial source, you have an observable phenomenon that you can look for. If the unmoved mover moves something, at that moment, the physical laws of the universe must be violated – an apparently uncaused cause – a reaction without an action…

Perhaps one day, an ID proponent will move beyond the mantra of “I can see no possible physical pathway for this phenomenon to arise, therefore design” to some suggestion of modus operandi. Until then, we are all left with our uncertainty. “I don’t know” is always a possible answer…

Remember the theory of evolution makes no prediction about how life on Earth got started, it merely proposes a mechanism (or suite of mechanisms) for how life could have diversified subsequently.
Even spawn-of-Satan Richard Dawkins does not rule out the possibility of God’s existence. He only gives his certainty level as 6 out of 7….

I don’t know exactly how life got started on Earth. No matter how hard we look we can’t seem to find that spark, that élan vital that, according to some, we should find in vivo but not in vitro.

Current research leaves you, me and everyone to speculate as wildly as they wish.

I would like to commend Ms. Renard for her intellectual honesty and her spirit of scientific modesty. She is to be applauded for not ruling supernaturalism out of court, as a hypothesis which scientists might adopt. Incidentally, I should point out in passing that if an Unmoved Mover were to move something, the physical laws of the universe would not have to be violated: that would only follow if we envisage the Unmoved Mover as pushing particles around. In a universe where Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle holds sway, we could imagine such a Being imposing patterns of arrangement on a particular group of particles in the cosmos, while maintaining statistical randomness – e.g. an equal number of particles being scattered in this direction by a colliding photon as in that direction – for the cosmos as a whole.

Regarding Ms. Renard’s proposal: one could certainly imagine a community of scientists carrying out their investigations in a spirit of open-mindedness, as Ms. Renard envisages. In practice, however, scientists are flesh-and-blood mortals like the rest of us, searching for practical answers to life’s big questions: “Whence came we?”, “What are we?” and “Whither go we?” Scientists are also as liable to “group-think” as the rest of us are. So it is hard to envisage a scientific community remaining in a state of total agnosticism for very long. Sooner or later, a methodological bias would emerge in the hypothesis they tended to favor – naturalism or supernaturalism – when investigating life’s origins. And eventually, one suspects that this methodological bias would harden into a metaphysical bias: either scientific naturalism or supernaturalism would become the default scientific worldview.

Finally, Ms. Renard apparently regards the inability of Intelligent Design theorists to suggest a modus operandi for the Designer as being just as great a difficulty for supernaturalism as the inability of biologists to come up with a plausible chemical pathway leading to the emergence of life is for scientific naturalism. While both of these problems are indeed difficulties for their respective hypotheses, the difficulty facing naturalism is much, much greater than that facing supernaturalism. The reason is that natural processes are inherently constrained in their range and magnitude, whereas intelligence per se faces no such constraints. For instance, there is no finite set of all possible ways of designing an object. But there is a finite set of all chemical processes existing in Nature. As our scientific knowledge steadily advances and continually fails to uncover any new chemical processes that might plausibly have led to the emergence of life, the hypothesis of scientific naturalism has fewer and fewer “unknown processes” left, to which it can appeal. Naturalists can run, but they cannot hide. With the hypothesis of a supernatural Designer, on the other hand, we are positing the existence of an Intellect which is far greater than our own, given our inability to model life in all its complexity. It is hardly surprising, then, that the modus operandi of such a great Mind should continue to elude us. Or as Charles Darwin himself memorably put it in a letter to Asa Gray: “A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton.”

Can scientific naturalism be justified without appealing to abiogenesis? Two tactics

Another, more subtle response would have been to attack my claim that scientific naturalism presupposes the truth of abiogenesis. If one could demonstrate the truth (or probability) of scientific naturalism on independent grounds, without having to address the question of life’s origin, then this would be an effective rebuttal of my argument. There are two ways in which a scientific naturalist might go about doing this.

(a) Are there any good a priori arguments for scientific naturalism?

First, one might argue that the very concept of a supernatural Being – by which I mean a Being Who is not subject to the laws of Nature – is logically absurd and incoherent, or alternatively, that there is something logically flawed in the enterprise of invoking such a Being as an ultimate explanation of Nature. Second, one might try to argue that we already have strong empirical evidence – either positive or negative – which tells heavily against the hypothesis that a supernatural Being exists, and because this evidence is so conclusive, we don’t need to first address the question of how life arose in our cosmos.

Taking the first tack would have meant constructing an a priori argument against the possibility of a supernatural Being or alternatively, against the possibility of such a Being serving as an ultimate explanation of the natural world. Such a move is highly risky: there’s no a priori argument against the very possibility of a supernatural Being that currently commands general assent among philosophers. And while many philosophers reject supernaturalism on the grounds that the classical arguments for theism strike them as unpersuasive, few philosophers would argue that it is logically absurd to suppose that the natural world might have a supernatural Creator (or creators).

Seversky was one of the critics responding to my post who tried this first tactic, by appealing to Richard Dawkins’ “Who designed the Designer?” argument. As he put it (see here and here):

If complexity implies a designer, who designed the designer, who must be more complex than the designs we observe? Or is it designers all the way down?…

Anyone who thinks the dilemma of Infinite Regress (IR) versus uncaused first cause (UFC) (or “Who designed the designer” or “What caused God”) has been settled does not understand the arguments.

In the case of Infinite Regress, although our minds instinctively rebel against the concept because it is impossible to grasp, there seems to be no logical contradiction involved…

“Who designed the designer?”, “Who created the Creator?”, “What caused God?” are all perfectly good questions. Many clever people have worked hard to answer them over the last couple of thousand years or so but, the fact is, so far no one has managed to nail it.

Seversky’s reply actually refutes the very argument he is making. For if (as he maintains) there is no inherent impossibility in an infinite regress, then it is perfectly reasonable to suppose that there really are “designers all the way down,” as he humorously suggests. Why not, after all? Such a solution neatly answers Dawkins’ question, “Who designed the designer?”

I should add, however, that I believe there is a certain kind of infinite regress which is impossible: namely, an infinite regress of explanations (as opposed to prior conditions, which might go back to infinity). It seems obvious that an infinite regress of explanations explains nothing: if I were to ask, “Why did Jones murder Smith?” I would not be satisfied until I arrived at an explanation of the murder – e.g. Jones wanted Smith’s money – that made perfect sense in its own right, without needing to appeal to any further underlying explanation. If the continued existence of the cosmos is a fact that requires an explanation, like a murder, then that explanation requires an explanatory terminus. Now, Seversky might reply that one can imagine an infinite regress of partial explanations, with each explanation E having a prior explanation which is more general and hence “bigger” in scope. In that vein, one might imagine that we live in an infinite “Russian doll” cosmos, with each universe being embedded in a bigger one having more general natural laws, but with no “biggest universe.” However, it seems to me that we can still speak meaningfully of the total set S of all universes – each embedded in a larger one – and ask, “Does the set S have a property (call it P) which requires an explanation?” For instance, are there laws of Nature which apply to the set as a whole, and are these laws fine-tuned? I might add that Dr. Robin Collins makes a powerful case in his essay, The Teleological Argument, that a multiverse would still need to be designed, in order to generate even one universe like ours.

If an infinite regress of explanations doesn’t work, then we are back with the question, “Who designed the Designer?” One commenter, called Logically_speaking, attempted to counter this question by asking, “Who painted the painter?” However, I have to say (reluctantly) that I don’t think this move works. Seversky’s argument was that any Designer of the cosmos would necessarily possess the very trait – complexity – which we posited the existence of a Designer in order to explain. By contrast, the reason why we assume that paintings have a painter (as opposed to a designer) is that the material called paint has no built-in tendency to arrange itself into a picture. All we can conclude from this is that the painter of a picture cannot be made of paint. But the design argument isn’t an argument about this or that raw material; it applies equally to all materials, and indeed to anything composed of parts arranged in an astronomically unlikely fashion.

A better reply to the “Who designed the Designer?” argument is that the supernatural Designer of the cosmos is not complex in a way that warrants an inference to its having a Designer. Seversky argues that such a Designer must be more complex than the designs we observe. But the notion of complexity he is appealing to is not a probabilistic one – which is the notion that Intelligent Design proponents appeal to – but a structural or functional one: presumably he thinks that a Designer would have to have a Mind composed of multiple parts and/or capable of multiple functions. That may be so, but if such a Mind exists outside space-time – as it would have to, if it designed the cosmos – then by definition, the probability of its having originated via unguided processes (i.e. its probabilistic complexity, as defined by ID) cannot be computed, because such a Mind would have had no origin in the first place. Seversky might reject the notion of a timeless (or atemporal) Designer as absurd, but to quote his own words against him, “there seems to be no logical contradiction involved” in such a notion. The contemporary philosophers Paul Helm and Katherin Rogers are two doughty defenders of the doctrine of Divine atemporality. If Seversky finds their arguments unconvincing, he needs to explain why.

Another critic, Evolve, argued for a different kind of fatal flaw in the hypothesis of supernaturalism: it explains nothing. As he put it:

The supernatural designer is a purely fictitious, undefined entity. One can fit him into any scenario one wants! Such a designer has zero explanatory power.

Now, if Evolve had wanted to argue that the hypothesis of a supernatural Designer has zero predictive power, then he would have had a valid point – unless, of course, we could make a shrewd guess as to what the Designer’s motives were. (And if the fine-tuning argument is correct, then our guess might be that the Designer’s motive was the creation of intelligent life-forms, in which case we would predict that the Designer would try to prevent these life-forms from becoming extinct, by designing a cosmos in which such an eventuality was very unlikely or impossible.) But even in the absence of a motive, it is simply incorrect to assert that the hypothesis of a supernatural Designer has zero explanatory power – just as it would be incorrect to assert that the hypothesis that an unknown designer produced a giant, mathematically regular monolith discovered on the Moon had zero explanatory power. Whoever the designer of the monolith is, or was, we know that he/she/it has an understanding of mathematics. One can make the same argument for the Designer of the cosmos: the Designer’s intelligence is what explains the mathematical beauty of the cosmos.

(b) Is there any empirical evidence for scientific naturalism?

The second argumentative tack that a scientific naturalist might adopt in order to circumvent the requirement that abiogenesis must be shown to be true or at least probable – namely, that of appealing to strong empirical evidence telling against the hypothesis of a supernatural Designer – was also deployed by Evolve, who wrote (see here and here):

Scientific naturalism is not an assertion, it is an observation. We have never observed any supernatural force tinkering with nature, past or present. On the contrary, we have copious data supporting naturalistic evolution and the evidence keeps on growing by the day as predictions made by the theory are confirmed by multiple disciplines of science. All supernatural alternatives to evolution, including ID, have spectacularly failed to propose testable hypothesis that can de-seat evolution.

Natural evolution best explains the data. This is what school kids must be told about in science classes…

Science HAS NO EVIDENCE for anything OUTSIDE nature —> Scientific Naturalism.

Why should we disregard claimed miracles? Because we have naturalistic explanations for the said miracles. Simple. Done.

The short answer to Evolve’s claim that “Science HAS NO EVIDENCE for anything OUTSIDE nature” is that the emergence of life on Earth is the very evidence that he is looking for. I have many times cited the work of Dr. Douglas Axe (which I recently summarized in non-technical terms here) and of evolutionary biologist Dr. Eugene Koonin (an atheist, whose his peer-reviewed article, The Cosmological Model of Eternal Inflation and the Transition from Chance to Biological Evolution in the History of Life I discussed here and here) as evidence for my claim that the emergence of life on Earth – or for that matter, anywhere in our universe – was an astronomically improbable event. That’s very powerful prima facie evidence against scientific naturalism – especially when combined with Dr. Robin Collins’ argument that a multiverse capable of spitting out even one life-friendly universe like ours would itself need to be fine-tuned, and hence designed. Life itself is the miracle that Evolve is demanding, and try as he might, he cannot disregard it, for it exists everywhere on Earth.

Finally, Evolve’s appeal to “copious data supporting naturalistic evolution” is also irrelevant, as the probabilistic hurdles involved in microevolution – which is the only kind of evolution scientists have actually observed – are much lower than the hurdles involved in the astronomically unlikely emergence of life on Earth.

A final objection from Keith S

I’d like to conclude this post by responding to a question by Keith S, who attempts to rebut what he sees as my argument:

His argument amounts to this:

1) Assume design by default.
2) If you can explain every single detail of, well, everything in terms of natural processes, then accept naturalism; otherwise stick with design.

The obvious question is: Why should design be the default?

Vincent hasn’t justified this unparsimonious move.

I’ll keep this simple. I have listed papers by respected scientists – including an atheistic evolutionary biologist – who have calculated that the emergence of a simple life-form, or even a folding protein, as a result of unguided natural processes, was an astronomically improbable event. On the other hand, we know that intelligent human agents are capable of understanding how living cells work. Although building an atomic replica of the cell is beyond the capabilities of human scientists, they are presumably capable of making a cell from carefully selected ingredients, via an intelligently guided series of pathways. By default, then, we should assume that the first living cell arose by a process of intelligent design, since it is the only process known to be up to the job.

Keith S may not like my “design default.” But if he wants to change the default, it’s up to him to specify an unguided process that is capable of doing the job. Simple as that.

Keith S adds:

Vincent is being unfair by demanding naturalistic explanations of everything before agreeing to accept naturalism.

Science is a long way off from being able to explain everything. In the meantime, we should accept the best available explanation, even if it is incomplete. And since unguided evolution is trillions of times better as an explanation versus ID, any rational person will choose it over ID.

I’m not demanding “naturalistic explanations of everything” before agreeing to accepting to accept naturalism. I’m asking why Keith S thinks we should accept naturalism, notwithstanding the fact that there is a huge probabilistic hurdle confronting the hypothesis of scientific naturalism, which scientists have no hope of ever resolving. Moreover, Keith S’s outlandish claim that “unguided evolution is trillions of times better as an explanation versus ID,” by his own admission, does not apply to the origin of life but of the nested hierarchies that we find in living things today. Citing the evolution for common descent – even unguided common descent – as evidence for abiogenesis manifests fundamentally mistaken thinking. Finally, the “best available explanation” for the origin of life is intelligent design. At least that’s an adequate cause for the job.

Comments
Hi Alicia Renard, Thank you for your post. You write:
Origin of Life is a field replete with ideas but with a dearth of evidence. I’ve often pointed out that ID proponents would be better, should they wish to stay with the strategy of just attacking scientific theories, to go after OoL rather than ToE. On the other hand, Axe, Durston and others are not convincing anyone with any familiarity in the field of molecular genetics and protein synthesis on the “islands of function” argument. It’s an active field of research, so another thread looking at whether the “islands of function” IC argument has anything left to argue against current levels of understanding of how proteins can evolve might be worth posting.
Are you aware of anyone who has published a serious reply to the paper by Dr. Axe which I cited above, arguing against a Darwinian explanation of the origin of protein folds? I'd be interested in seeing a reply, if one exists. You add:
It would be informative to know how the Designer thinks. But we don’t even know what another person thinks (even when they tell us they could e lying) and we judge people on their actions. By analogy, we could form some idea of the designer’s thoughts by examining their actions. But ID rules this approach out. Uncharitably, some suggest that’s because that takes ID down a religious path.
I'm frankly of the opinion that ID needs to move forward by trying to think like the Designer. On that point, I agree with Intelligent Design commentator Steve Fuller, a sociologist who has published some thought-provoking analyses of the ID movement. After all, trying to "think God's thoughts after him" was how the science of physics moved forward in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.vjtorley
November 30, 2014
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Hi Keith S, Thank you for your post. You write:
Again, your argument can easily be turned around and used against ID. Let’s make naturalism the default and demand that you 1) demonstrate that a designer existed at the right place and time; 2) lay out, in detail, the procedure that the designer could have employed; and 3) demonstrate that the designer had the required capabilities for every single step of that process. You and other IDers would protest that those demands are unfair, and you’d be right. By the same logic, the demands you make on naturalism are also unfair.
The demand that ID proponents should be able to demonstrate that a designer existed at the right place and time, with the requisite capabilities, and that they should describe a procedure that the designer could have employed, would be a reasonable one, if we were adjudicating between Intelligent Design and some other hypothesis about a process that was known to be able to produce life. The reason why the design explanation enjoys such an advantage is that it is the only process known to be capable of producing the distinguishing features of life on Earth - in particular, a digital code, developmental programs and highly functional but astronomically improbable configurations of matter. If there were some other process that were known to be able to generate these features, then the ID hypothesis would warrant a lot more critical scrutiny. But in this case, it's the only scientific game in town. It's a terrible pity that contemporary biologists are too ideologically wedded to naturalism to recognize that fact.vjtorley
November 30, 2014
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Vincent Torley (November 29, 2014 at 11:24 pm) writes: Alicia Renard,
Thank you for your posts. I was not aware that you had experienced difficulties in posting here under your true name, but I quite understand your decision to use a different name.
That's refreshing. I quite understand the difficulties in running a blog-site with the outlook of UD. It must be disheartening. You write:
If there were some utility in including concepts that had no basis in our reality, then, why not include such ideas. In fact, this already happens in cosmology. I would maintain that the hypothesis that life (as well as the different classes of proteins and the molecular machines inside the cell that make use of these proteins) was intelligently designed is, in fact, a scientifically fruitful one. But to make it work, instead of focusing on the question, “How did the Designer do it?” we should be asking, “How does the Designer think?” In other words, what kinds of concepts did the Designer have to employ, in order to come up with proteins, molecular machines and cells? More work needs to be done in this area. It may well turn out that by trying to think like the Designer, biologists will learn more about the underlying structure of the organisms they study.
I think the "engineering" approach to understanding how molecules behave and interact is fundamentally misleading. Imagining little nanomachines whizzing about in some purposeful way is futile, though I accept some very pretty illustrations, diagrams and animations have been produced in an attempt to "picture" the processes going on. The fact is that we cannot produce live images of molecular interactions in the cell. One simple phenomenon that never seems to form part of these animations is Brownian motion. It would be informative to know how the Designer thinks. But we don't even know what another person thinks (even when they tell us they could e lying) and we judge people on their actions. By analogy, we could form some idea of the designer's thoughts by examining their actions. But ID rules this approach out. Uncharitably, some suggest that's because that takes ID down a religious path. Frankly, in the wake of Dover, it hardly seems to matter now.
You write that “There is no shortage of hypotheses about what pathways might have contributed to the arrival of self-sustaining self-replicators on Earth.” May I suggest that self-replication as such is not the real problem, when accounting for the origin of life. One also needs to come up with a genetic code – a huge difficulty, as evolutionary biologist Eugene Koonin has acknowledged – and one has to be able to explain the origin of the workhorses of the cell: proteins. Anyone familiar with the work of Dr. Axe (whose arguments I summarized in a previous post) will realize that scientific hypotheses regarding the origin of proteins fall into just three broad categories, all of which have been falsified by the scientific evidence: (i) the number of possible proteins is much larger than we think; (ii) the various kinds of proteins are all closely related, so the emergence of the first proteins would have facilitated the emergence of all subsequent proteins; and (iii) proteins could have originated from much simpler molecules that were able to perform useful biological functions.
Origin of Life is a field replete with ideas but with a dearth of evidence. I've often pointed out that ID proponents would be better, should they wish to stay with the strategy of just attacking scientific theories, to go after OoL rather than ToE. On the other hand, Axe, Durston and others are not convincing anyone with any familiarity in the field of molecular genetics and protein synthesis on the "islands of function" argument. It's an active field of research, so another thread looking at whether the "islands of function" IC argument has anything left to argue against current levels of understanding of how proteins can evolve might be worth posting.
When Quest asked,
Suppose you discovered some kind of actively functioning machinery on Mars… What would be your conclusion?
you opted for alien designers, but then criticized him for asking a “daft question.” But as botanist Alex Williams pointed out many years ago in a now-famous article titled, “Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism”, “DNA information is overlapping-multi-layered and multi-dimensional; it reads both backwards and forwards… No human engineer has ever even imagined, let alone designed an information storage device anything like it. Moreover, the vast majority of its content is metainformation — information about how to use information. Meta-information cannot arise by chance because it only makes sense in context of the information it relates to.” I certainly don’t agree with all of Williams’ conclusions, but if what he says about the information in DNA is correct, then I think we can make an a fortiori argument for DNA’s having been designed. If we would all conclude that a machine we found on Mars was designed, and if we then discover much more complex machinery inside the cell, shouldn’t we rationally conclude that the machinery inside the cell was designed too?
I still think it was a daft question. I'm reminded of a book I was urged to read as an exposition of ID arguments, The Design Matrix by "Mike Gene". A good part of the book was based on hypothetical arguments about a "face on Mars" that was spotted in the seventies and later discounted. It seemed utterly disconnected to anything to do with Earth biology, an irrelevant and pointless digression. As I said above, comparisons between cellular activity with engineering fails most simply and obviously at the level of scale. Atoms and molecules are not like nuts, bolts and gears. Properties emerge as we scale from fermions and bosons, through water molecules to proteins and DNA. Quantum effects are crucial at these levels, unobservable at the level of the organism.
And might I remind you of the words of the (agnostic) Microsoft entrepreneur, Bill Gates: “Human DNA is like a computer program, but far, far more advanced than any software we’ve ever created.”
It's a throw-away line that caught on because Bill Gates is who he is. It's not productive to take computer analogies too far at the sub-cellular level. I think it might be productive in trying to understand how brains work at the inter-cellular level. Whether computing and engineering will learn from looking at living organism I don't know but I suspect there's gold to be mined there.Alicia Renard
November 30, 2014
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Alicia Renard, Thank you for your posts. I was not aware that you had experienced difficulties in posting here under your true name, but I quite understand your decision to use a different name. You write:
If there were some utility in including concepts that had no basis in our reality, then, why not include such ideas. In fact, this already happens in cosmology.
I would maintain that the hypothesis that life (as well as the different classes of proteins and the molecular machines inside the cell that make use of these proteins) was intelligently designed is, in fact, a scientifically fruitful one. But to make it work, instead of focusing on the question, "How did the Designer do it?" we should be asking, "How does the Designer think?" In other words, what kinds of concepts did the Designer have to employ, in order to come up with proteins, molecular machines and cells? More work needs to be done in this area. It may well turn out that by trying to think like the Designer, biologists will learn more about the underlying structure of the organisms they study. You write that "There is no shortage of hypotheses about what pathways might have contributed to the arrival of self-sustaining self-replicators on Earth." May I suggest that self-replication as such is not the real problem, when accounting for the origin of life. One also needs to come up with a genetic code - a huge difficulty, as evolutionary biologist Eugene Koonin has acknowledged - and one has to be able to explain the origin of the workhorses of the cell: proteins. Anyone familiar with the work of Dr. Axe (whose arguments I summarized in a previous post) will realize that scientific hypotheses regarding the origin of proteins fall into just three broad categories, all of which have been falsified by the scientific evidence: (i) the number of possible proteins is much larger than we think; (ii) the various kinds of proteins are all closely related, so the emergence of the first proteins would have facilitated the emergence of all subsequent proteins; and (iii) proteins could have originated from much simpler molecules that were able to perform useful biological functions. When Quest asked,
Suppose you discovered some kind of actively functioning machinery on Mars… What would be your conclusion?
you opted for alien designers, but then criticized him for asking a "daft question." But as botanist Alex Williams pointed out many years ago in a now-famous article titled, "Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism", "DNA information is overlapping-multi-layered and multi-dimensional; it reads both backwards and forwards... No human engineer has ever even imagined, let alone designed an information storage device anything like it. Moreover, the vast majority of its content is metainformation — information about how to use information. Meta-information cannot arise by chance because it only makes sense in context of the information it relates to." I certainly don't agree with all of Williams' conclusions, but if what he says about the information in DNA is correct, then I think we can make an a fortiori argument for DNA's having been designed. If we would all conclude that a machine we found on Mars was designed, and if we then discover much more complex machinery inside the cell, shouldn't we rationally conclude that the machinery inside the cell was designed too? And might I remind you of the words of the (agnostic) Microsoft entrepreneur, Bill Gates: "Human DNA is like a computer program, but far, far more advanced than any software we've ever created."vjtorley
November 29, 2014
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logically_speaking @ 41 I don't even know if you understand what is being discussed. You don't understand probability,
because the figure you put as 0.001 % or any like number is arbitrary.
I have already asked you to put your own number and check You don't understand difference between thinking and concept-
No ID proponent thinks all ‘machines’ in cell are irreducible.... So this statement by you is false then? “ID is only about probability. Design detection is probability”.
Of Course Not. Can you name a single ID concept which is not based on probability ? you don't know biology -
Do you know of any cell from the past that isn’t as complex as today to compare to?
Are you questioning simplicity of earlier cells ?!. I think I took you far away from your comfort zone of nebulous painter and paints. Sorry, please go back to your world.Me_Think
November 29, 2014
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Quest, I'm really glad to hear that you enjoyed my post, and I'm perfectly happy to forget whatever you may have said about me in the past. I hope you continue to enjoy reading future posts on Uncommon Descent. Cheers.vjtorley
November 29, 2014
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Me_Think, You: No ID proponent thinks all ‘machines’ in cell are irreducible hence there is no need to explain all ‘machines’ probabilistically. My response: So this statement by you is false then? "ID is only about probability. Design detection is probability". But then I was only talking about the machines that are doing all the "trials". So you still have to deal with the problem. You: Except you no one thinks cells were always as complex as it is today. My response: So? Why should it bother me or you that other people have different opinions? Do you know of any cell from the past that isn't as complex as today to compare to? You: As for your still not reach 1 comment, see @ 21: do you even realize that I just have to show 0.51 probability and no where close to even 0.90 ? My response: You fail to realize that it doesn't matter what percentage of probability you have to show, because the figure you put as 0.001 % or any like number is arbitrary.logically_speaking
November 29, 2014
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Cantor, Thank you for your query about my use of the term "scientific naturalism":
I'm curious why you found it necessary to coin a new phrase. Why not call it metaphysical naturalism?
There were two reasons for that. First, most of the scientists defending such a view adamantly reject the very notion of metaphysics as a valid source of knowledge; instead, they would (rightly or wrongly) regard their view of reality as being grounded in science, rather than metaphysics. "Metaphysical naturalism" therefore seemed an inappropriate term for characterizing the worldview of these scientists. Second, I defined “scientific naturalism” as “the view that there is nothing outside the natural world, by which I mean the sum total of everything that behaves in accordance with scientific laws [or laws of Nature].” Because I specifically defined the natural world as "the sum total of everything that behaves in accordance with scientific laws [or laws of Nature]" rather than leaving the term undefined, or simply equating it with the physical world (which invites the question of what the term "physical" means) or as the sum total of everything we can observe (which invites the question of what counts as an observation), I felt that a new term was warranted. The notion of a scientific law - i.e. a mathematical equation that accurately describes the behavior of all phenomena falling under a designated category - is much more precise.vjtorley
November 29, 2014
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logically_speaking @ 38, No ID proponent thinks all 'machines' in cell are irreducible hence there is no need to explain all 'machines' probabilistically. Except you no one thinks cells were always as complex as it is today. As for your still not reach 1 comment, see @ 21:
do you even realize that I just have to show 0.51 probability and no where close to even 0.90 ?
If I do that, 1-0.99999^x = 0.51, solve for x x (# of process needed to change 99.999% improbable event to probable) is only 71,335. Yes. I do remember painting the painter etc. Like all philosophical musings they are too vague and lead to nowhere land.Me_Think
November 29, 2014
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Me_Think, Me: The cells already contain irreducibly complex machinery, You: That’s ID’s unproven stance. My response: Actually it is proven, what do you think is actually going on when these trillions of trials are happening in cells. The machines that work in the cell are already there, if the machines weren't there no trials could take place. Q.E.D. You: I can’t help it if you think an omnipotent agent created all processes as a monolith process.It is for you to prove existence of omnipotent ID agent if you claim the cell stared right of the block as irreducibly complex machinery. My response: Sorry can you explain what a monolith process is. Well I'm not sure why you added the word omnipotent. But if irreducibly complex machinery does exist then the design itself is proof of the designer. Kind of like how a painting requires a painter (remember that). Also, where did you get the 0.001 % from? You: It need not be .001, take any number you can subtract from 1. How much more can you subtract and compute? You try it yourself. Remember there are trillions of processes happening every second – make it minutes-or even hours if you want, it doesn’t matter. My response: Yes your right it doesn't matter, as you can use any number, do your math and still not reach 1.logically_speaking
November 29, 2014
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First, one might argue that the very concept of a supernatural Being – by which I mean a Being Who is not subject to the laws of Nature – is logically absurd and incoherent, or alternatively, that there is something logically flawed in the enterprise of invoking such a Being as an ultimate explanation of Nature.
My view of naturalism holds that it is the study of the natures of things, "natures' being that which makes a thing itself and not something else. Methodological naturalism is, hence, the organized and methodical study of such natures. The Christian God, or any other god, being an entity distinct from all other entities, having properties or attributes which make it a god and not an amoeba, for example, is a natural being. As such, it is also a fit subject for scientific investigation, at least in principle. A corollary of this view is that the supernatural is an empty set. Ghosts, if they exist, have properties which make them ghosts and not tea-pots. They may be elusive and very difficult to observe but so are neutrinos and that doesn't make them supernatural. I see no reason to rule out the possibility of a god or Intelligent Designer but the standard arguments and evidence advanced for such a being are for me not persuasive.
Seversky’s reply actually refutes the very argument he is making. For if (as he maintains) there is no inherent impossibility in an infinite regress, then it is perfectly reasonable to suppose that there really are “designers all the way down,” as he humorously suggests. Why not, after all? Such a solution neatly answers Dawkins’ question, “Who designed the designer?”
My argument is that neither the Infinite Regress nor the Uncaused First Cause are inherently impossible or absurd but both are felt to be unsatisfactory to different people for different reasons. Our observations of the Universe reveal natural entities, including the Universe itself, which appear to be finite in all dimensions. All that would seem to weigh against Infinite Regress but we cannot rule out an infinite series of expanding and contracting universes. The Uncaused First looks like an arbitary solution to the problem, where it is felt to be such, of Infinte Regress. Not surprisingly, it also appeals to believers looking for arguments to support the existence of their Creator.
I should add, however, that I believe there is a certain kind of infinite regress which is impossible: namely, an infinite regress of explanations (as opposed to prior conditions, which might go back to infinity). It seems obvious that an infinite regress of explanations explains nothing: if I were to ask, “Why did Jones murder Smith?” I would not be satisfied until I arrived at an explanation of the murder – e.g. Jones wanted Smith’s money – that made perfect sense in its own right, without needing to appeal to any further underlying explanation. If the continued existence of the cosmos is a fact that requires an explanation, like a murder, then that explanation requires an explanatory terminus.
As I see it, an infinitely regressive universe does not rule out events that are bounded from our perspective. The answer to the question "Why did Jones murder Smith?" can be answered to our satisfaction by discovering means, motive and opportunity. But the chains of causation that led to both Jones and Smith can still stretch back to infinity.
Seversky might reject the notion of a timeless (or atemporal) Designer as absurd, but to quote his own words against him, “there seems to be no logical contradiction involved” in such a notion. The contemporary philosophers Paul Helm and Katherin Rogers are two doughty defenders of the doctrine of Divine atemporality. If Seversky finds their arguments unconvincing, he needs to explain why.
This depends on what is meant by "atemporality". I can conceive of a Designer or God who exists outside our spacetime Universe and can see the whole of it laid out before them like a physical landscape might be before us if we were in an aicraft or in an orbiting space station. But I have difficulty with any kind of perceptible existence that has no temporal dimension. The analogy I have seen used is to consider all the separate musical notes that make up a something like a piano concerto. Played in the right sequence, they create beautiful music. Play them all at once and you get just one meaningless burst of sound. We only know we exist because of change over time and I cannot imagine of any other way that could be. That doesn't mean there is nothing else and I would be fascinated if someone could come up with some form of atemporal existence but I haven't yet seen one.Seversky
November 29, 2014
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Quest(November 29, 2014 at 5:20 pm) writes:
Dear Alicia, I meant no harm…
Probably not, but what prompted you to ask such a daft question? Contingency planning for possible scenarios is one thing but I think we need to be patient and wait for evidence from SETI or other exploratory efforts into what else might be out there somewhere before we start asking hypothetical questions based on our limited ability to imagine what alien lifeforms might be like and what they might be capable of. One thing I'm prepared to suggest is that any alien civilisation will be unable to design faster-than-light transport.
However… I’m not totally sure you have answered my question… please correct me if I’m wrong…
Well, you did not follow the correct form of demanding a "YES OR NO" answer. My answer was "designed". Now your turn! PS at BA77, yes it is!Alicia Renard
November 29, 2014
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Dear Alicia, I meant no harm... However... I'm not totally sure you have answered my question... please correct me if I'm wrong...Quest
November 29, 2014
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as to "I’ll stick my neck out and plump for alien spaceship builders. Having answered your question, could you (or ANY ID proponent) tell me what the point is of such a daft question?" Since you feel that way, perhaps you should ask why Dawkins gave such a daft answer to Stein?: Ben Stein vs. Richard Dawkins Interview - video (2:51 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlZtEjtlirc&feature=player_detailpage#t=172 BEN STEIN: "What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in evolution?" DAWKINS: "Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now, um, now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer." i.e. so is design detection real or not?bornagain77
November 29, 2014
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I love this blog more, and more everyday... I thank Barry and all the volunteers for making it the best ID- backed by reasonableness website in the English language in the world... I didn't like your website at first, but you won me over... congratulations...!Quest
November 29, 2014
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Quest (November 29, 2014 at 10:49 am) writes:
I have a question for ALL skeptics of ID;
It seems an odd place to ask a question of ALL skeptics of ID, as I see no more than half a dozen ID critics posting here.
Suppose you discovered some kind of actively functioning machinery on Mars…
This is such an unlikely scenario as to surpass my ability to imagine. How did I get to Mars, at my age and current state of fitness? How would any of us get to Mars? Try a more realistic scenario. Perhaps a lander comes across something that looks like an alien exploration device and sends pictures back.
What would be your conclusion? 1. That the machinery was designed even though the designer could not be found…? 2. That the machinery come about by spontaneously, or by some kind of natural processes… and did not require a designer…?
I'm sure we have all seen enough science fiction films to know the difference between alien machinery and a rock. Unless the aliens were clever enough to disguise their spaceship as a rock! Or maybe they are even cleverer and build their spaceships as rocks. I'll stick my neck out and plump for alien spaceship builders. Having answered your question, could you (or ANY ID proponent) tell me what the point is of such a daft question? Thanks.Alicia Renard
November 29, 2014
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I have a question for ALL skeptics of ID; Suppose you discovered some kind of actively functioning machinery on Mars... What would be your conclusion? 1. That the machinery was designed even though the designer could not be found...? 2. That the machinery come about by spontaneously, or by some kind of natural processes... and did not require a designer...?Quest
November 29, 2014
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vjtorley, This is one of your best, if not the best posts I have ever read... I take back everything negative I have ever said about you... or your writings... Congratulations!!! QuestQuest
November 29, 2014
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logically_speaking @ 27
The cells already contain irreducibly complex machinery,
That's ID's unproven stance. I can't help it if you think an omnipotent agent created all processes as a monolith process.It is for you to prove existence of omnipotent ID agent if you claim the cell stared right of the block as irreducibly complex machinery.
Also, where did you get the 0.001 % from?
It need not be .001, take any number you can subtract from 1. How much more can you subtract and compute? You try it yourself. Remember there are trillions of processes happening every second - make it minutes-or even hours if you want, it doesn't matter.Me_Think
November 29, 2014
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Vincent writes:
I would like to commend Ms. Renard for her intellectual honesty...
Perhaps I should confess that this commendation is not wholly deserved. I did not spring fully formed from the mind of Zeus. I have previously commented here under my true name but, for reasons unclear to me, IP addresses that I used to connect with this site became blocked. As there were a couple of points left hanging, I re-registered under an alias and use a VPN to circumvent my blocked IP address. That is the extent of my dishonesty; the views I express are no different than they would have been via my previous registration. And whilst two wrongs don't make a right, I have to say "silent" IP blocking is a despicable way to prevent honest discussion. My current user name is not too far from my true name and I imagine several fellow commenters have already guessed it.Alicia Renard
November 29, 2014
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Me_Think, "The probability that the structure will form is 1 because of the huge number of trials in trillions of cells". The cells already contain irreducibly complex machinery, sorry but your begging the question. Your argument breaks down right from the start. Also, where did you get the 0.001 % from?logically_speaking
November 29, 2014
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logically_speaking @ 24
Me_Think seems to think making up numbers, somehow is on a par with ID probabilities.
I am not an IDer to make up monolith structure probabilities, talk about non-existing white noise search spaces, talk about random searches being superior to assisted searches and definitely not about conservation of information !Me_Think
November 29, 2014
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Hi Dr. Torley I appreciate your approach in attempting genuine dialogue with people whose views may be radically different from your own. I'm flattered that you should quote me at length. However when you write:
Ms. Renard apparently regards the inability of Intelligent Design theorists to suggest a modus operandi for the Designer as being just as great a difficulty for supernaturalism as the inability of biologists to come up with a plausible chemical pathway leading to the emergence of life is for scientific naturalism. While both of these problems are indeed difficulties for their respective hypotheses, the difficulty facing naturalism is much, much greater than that facing supernaturalism. The reason is that natural processes are inherently constrained in their range and magnitude, whereas intelligence per se faces no such constraints. For instance, there is no finite set of all possible ways of designing an object. But there is a finite set of all chemical processes existing in Nature. As our scientific knowledge steadily advances and continually fails to uncover any new chemical processes that might plausibly have led to the emergence of life, the hypothesis of scientific naturalism has fewer and fewer “unknown processes” left, to which it can appeal.
I would take issue with your suggestion about constraints. For science, we have to be pragmatic. If there were some utility in including concepts that had no basis in our reality, then, why not include such ideas. In fact, this already happens in cosmology. There is absolutely no way for us to verify the existence of anything beyond the limit that light has travelled since the beginning of the Universe that we find ourselves in but Hugh Everett's suggestion of "Many Worlds" develops naturally from mathematical models. Hardly a constraint! Also, I'd take issue with your remark "As our scientific knowledge steadily advances and continually fails to uncover any new chemical processes that might plausibly have led to the emergence of life, the hypothesis of scientific naturalism has fewer and fewer “unknown processes” left, to which it can appeal." There is no shortage of hypotheses about what pathways might have contributed to the arrival of self-sustaining self-replicators on Earth. The hypotheses have proliferated as scientific knowledge about the behavior of candidate molecules in plausible environments has expanded. But theses ideas are far from exhausted and it is far too early to start applying default arguments. To avoid repeating points that others have made, I'd add that I'm pretty much in agreement with Reciprocating Bill's comment number 10. ETA "of" changed to "at"Alicia Renard
November 29, 2014
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Me_Think seems to think making up numbers, somehow is on a par with ID probabilities.logically_speaking
November 29, 2014
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The issue is not about wandering around on an island of function. It is about discovering it and planting the flag.
That was covered in other threads. Here: Hyper dimensions reduce the search space probabilities:
Imagine a solution circle (the circle within which solution exists) of 10 cm inside a 100 cm square search space. The area which needs to be searched for solution is pi x 10 ^2 = 314.15 The total Search area is 100 x 100 = 10000. The % area to be searched is (314.15/10000) x 100 = 3.14% In 3 dimensions,the search area will be 4/3 x pi x 10^3 Area to search is now cube (because of 3 dimensions) = 100^3. Thus the % of area to be searched falls to just 4188.79/100^3 = 0.41 % only. Hypervolume of sphere with dimension d and radius r is: (Pi^d/2 x r^d)/r(d/2+1) HyperVolume of Cube = r^d At 10 dimensions, the volume to search reduces to just: 0.000015608 % But in nature, the actual search area is incredibly small. As wagner points out in Chapter six, In the number of dimensions where our circuit library exists—get ready for this—the sphere contains neither 0.1 percent, 0.01 percent, nor 0.001 percent. It contains less than one 10^ -100th of the library == I will quote Wagner himself: This volume decreases not just for my example of a 15 percent ratio of volumes, but for any ratio, even one as high as 75 percent, where the volume drops to 49 percent in three dimensions, to 28 percent in four, to 14.7 percent in five, and so on, to ever-smaller fractions. What this means: In a network of N nodes and N-1 neighbors, if in 1 dimension, 10 steps are required to to discover new genotype/procedure, in higher dimension, this 10 steps reduces drastically to fraction of 1 step !
Me_Think
November 29, 2014
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Me_Think " just 0.001 % " ? What happens to your calculation when the probability "just happens" to be 10^-150 or 10^-500 or 10^-1000? I_Think "just 0.001 %" is a straw man! The issue is not about wandering around on an island of function. It is about discovering it and planting the flag. StephenSteRusJon
November 29, 2014
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logically_speaking @ 18,
“The probability that the structure will form is 1……*bunch of math*……..The probability of event/ structure happening/ forming is thus virtually 1? Virtually 1 is not 1. When you actually get get to 1 then maybe we can talk about it.
ROFL. ID is only about probability .Design detection is probability, Search Space vs Target space is probability, Demski's White noise Search landscape is probability,Law of Conservation of Information and No Free Lunch is probability, and here we have an IDer who is utterly,utterly oblivious to the edifice on which ID is trying to stand. logically_speaking, do you even realize that I just have to show 0.51 probability and no where close to even 0.90 ?Me_Think
November 29, 2014
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On who painted the painter There is no evidence I know of where elements have ever tended to create life. Isn't decay the natural state of things? So the fact that life exists seems to be completely at odds with the natural state, and that makes it appear as if things that don't tend to clump together to create life were in fact forced into that state. And as the painter, isn't made of paint as pointed out in another comment, his traits are seen in his creation, whether paint on the floor or on a picture.MrCollins
November 29, 2014
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Vincent, I went through your OP again tonight and I have an additional comment. You wrote:
Keith S provided an interesting topic for discussion when he claimed that scientists had already built a simulation of a simple bacterial cell, thus refuting my claim that we can’t build a replica of the cell, down to the atomic level:
That was not my claim. I pointed out that atomic-level simulations are a bad idea, because they're wasteful and rarely needed. I mentioned the cell simulation not because it was an atomic-level simulation -- it isn't -- but rather because it shows that higher-level simulations are useful despite the fact that they are more abstract. You don't need to simulate at the atomic level most of the time:
As others have pointed out, it’s rarely necessary to simulate at the atomic level, and in fact it’s usually wasteful to do so. Smart modelers adjust the granularity of the simulation to fit the problem they’re tackling. In any case, computational biologists have already managed to do some amazing things with their simulations. See this New York Times article from a couple of years ago:
keith s
November 28, 2014
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Me_Think, It doesn't matter if it is claimed or not the concept is sound. Can you think of anything more complex than something that is irreducibly complex either in concept or in fact. Your logic is still not working properly, "The probability that the structure will form is 1......*bunch of math*........The probability of event/ structure happening/ forming is thus virtually 1" Virtually 1 is not 1. When you actually get get to 1 then maybe we can talk about it.logically_speaking
November 28, 2014
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