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It’s time for scientists to come clean with the public about evolution and the origin of life

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As we’ve seen, a large percentage of the American public – 47% according to a recent Harris Interactive poll – now believes in Darwin’s theory of evolution. One possible reason for this high percentage is that high school and college students are not told about the problems which call Darwin’s theory into question – as well as theories of evolution which are based on random genetic drift.

Still, there are heartening signs that the wall of ignorance supporting the dam of evolutionary orthodoxy is about to collapse. A steady stream of ground-breaking books and peer-reviewed scientific articles authored by scientists who question key assumptions of modern evolutionary theory has been coming out in the last couple of years. It is only a matter of time before these articles and books get the attention of the general public. What’s important here is that the scientists writing these books and articles are not “outsiders” who reject evolution, but “insiders” who recognize that contemporary theories of evolution are radically deficient in explaining the origin and evolution of life.

Scientists have calculated that Darwin’s theory of natural selection brings about changes too slowly for evolution to have occurred in just 4 billion years

In 2010, a paper by Herbert S. Wilf and Warren J. Ewens, titled, “There’s plenty of time for evolution”, was published in the Proceedings of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) (doi: 10.1073/pnas.1016207107). The aim of the paper’s authors was to demonstrate mathematically that “there has been ample time for the evolution that we observe to have taken place.” At the time, the article was given wide publicity, and it was featured prominently over at Professor Jerry Coyne’s Website, Why Evolution is True, while Professor P.Z. Myers claimed the paper provided “a guide to short-circuiting the invalid assumptions of creationists.” Sadly, very few people read about the devastating rebuttal of Wilf and Ewens’s paper by Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Ann K. Gauger, Robert J. Marks II, in a paper titled, Time and Information in Evolution, in BIO-Complexity, Volume 2012 (4). The authors concluded that Wilf and Ewens’s paper did not accurately model biological evolution, firstly because their model included “implicit information sources, including the equivalent of a highly informed oracle that prophesies when a mutation is ‘correct,’ thus accelerating the search by the evolutionary process,” and secondly because the model makes “unrealistic biological assumptions that, in effect, simplify the search.”

Now, however, it seems that the scientific community is finally starting to come clean about the fact that Darwinian evolution is nowhere near capable of generating the diversity of life-forms we see on Earth today within the time available (four billion years).

Edward Frenkel, a professor of mathematics at the University of California, Berkeley, recently reviewed a book titled, Probably Approximately Correct: Nature’s Algorithms for Learning and Prospering in a Complex World (Basic Books, 2013) by computer scientist Leslie Valiant, in a report for the New York Times (Evolution, Speeded by Computation, September 30, 2013). The following excerpt conveys the gist of Dr. Valiant’s conclusions:

The evolution of species, as Darwin taught us, relies on natural selection. But Dr. Valiant argues that if all the mutations that drive evolution were simply random and equally distributed, it would proceed at an impossibly slow and inefficient pace.

Darwin’s theory “has the gaping gap that it can make no quantitative predictions as far as the number of generations needed for the evolution of a behavior of a certain complexity,” he writes. “We need to explain how evolution is possible at all, how we got from no life, or from very simple life, to life as complex as we find it on earth today. This is the BIG question.”

Dr. Valiant proposes that natural selection is supplemented by ecorithms, which enable organisms to learn and adapt more efficiently. Not all mutations are realized with equal probability; those that are more beneficial are more likely to occur. In other words, evolution is accelerated by computation.

The criticisms being made here of the Darwinian theory of evolution are pretty devastating: not only is it far too slow to generate life in all its diversity, but it’s also utterly incapable of making quantitative predictions about the time required for a structure of known complexity to evolve, by natural selection. And there’s no reason to believe that the “nearly neutral theory of evolution” espoused by biologists such as Professor Larry Moran would fare any better, in this regard.

So what is Dr. Valiant’s alternative? It sounds as if he is advocating some kind of teleological, or purpose-driven evolution. That’s fine, but it raises a deeper question: who or what made evolution capable of achieving its goals within only a few billion years? Is the evolutionary process fine-tuned?

A new kind of evolution is required to account for the Cambrian explosion

Shortly after the publication of Stephen Meyer’s scholarly work, Darwin’s Doubt, an article by Michael Lee, Julien Soubrier and Gregory D. Edgecombe, titled, Rates of Phenotypic and Genomic Evolution during the Cambrian Explosion (Current Biology, Volume 23, Issue 19, 1889-1895, 12 September 2013), which was widely hailed as a decisive refutation of the claims made in Dr. Meyer’s book. The article’s authors claimed that that evolution ran about five times faster during the Cambrian than its usual, gradual pace. That, they say, accounts for the Cambrian explosion. The key message: evolution’s “big bang” is fully compatible with Darwinian evolution. What the article overlooked was that Meyer’s central criticism of the Darwinian account had nothing to do with the time available; rather, it had to do with the type of evolution required to account for the changes that took place at that time – namely, the simultaneous appearance of about 30 different kinds of animal body plans, during the Cambrian period. (See here for a critical review of Lee et al.‘s article.)

But truth will out, one way or another. The scientific world might have ignored Meyer’s arguments, but they could not ignore the arguments made by two paleontologists who are widely acknowledged as leading authorities on the Cambrian explosion: Douglas Erwin and James Valentine. Over at Evolution News, Casey Luskin recently reviewed Erwin and Valentine’s latest ground-breaking book, The Cambrian Explosion: The Construction of Animal Biodiversity (Roberts and Company, 2013). A few relevant excerpts will serve to convey the gist of the book’s central argument, which is that nothing less than a radically new kind of evolution is required in order to understand what kicked off the Cambrian explosion:

One important concern has been whether the microevolutionary patterns commonly studied in modern organisms by evolutionary biologists are sufficient to understand and explain the events of the Cambrian or whether evolutionary theory needs to be expanded to include a more diverse set of macroevolutionary processes. We strongly hold to the latter position. (pp. 9-10)

Because the Cambrian explosion involved a significant number of separate lineages, achieving remarkable morphological breadth over millions of years, the Cambrian explosion can be considered an adaptive radiation only by stretching the term beyond all recognition… [T]he scale of morphological divergence is wholly incommensurate with that seen in other adaptive radiations. (p. 341)

The pathway from sponges to eumetazoans is the most enigmatic of any evolutionary transition in metazoans. This transition occurred during the Cryogenian, almost contemporaneously with the diversification of sponges. Many biologists concerned with metazoan phylogeny have been convinced that “ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny” and have therefore assumed that the planktonic larval stages of invertebrate phyla represented their ancestral forms. The benthic nature of sponges and the paraphyly of the major clades demonstrate that planktonic stages could not have been ancestral to eumetazoans. Further, there are no living intermediates between sponges and eumetazoans, with the possible exception of placotozoans, and no obvious hints from the fossil record. (p. 324)

To be sure, all pairs of crown phyla had common ancestors; as far as we know, however, none of those bilaterian LCAs [last common ancestors – VJT] had features that would cause them to be diagnosed as members of living phyla, although that could be the case in a few instances. In other words, the morphological distances — gaps — between body plans of crown phyla were present when body fossils first appeared during the explosion and have been with us ever since. The morphological disparity is so great between most phyla that the homologous reference points or landmarks required for quantitative studies of morphology are absent. (p. 340)
(Emphases mine – VJT.)

Summing up his review of Erwin and Valentine’s book for the journal Science, Christopher J. Lowe wrote:

The Ediacaran and Cambrian periods witnessed a phase of morphological innovation in animal evolution unrivaled in metazoan history, yet the proximate causes of this body plan revolution remain decidedly murky. The grand puzzle of the Cambrian explosion surely must rank as one of the most important outstanding mysteries in evolutionary biology.
(Christopher J. Lowe, “What Led to Metazoa’s Big Bang?”, Science, Vol. 340: 1170-1171 (June 7, 2013). (Emphasis added – VJT.))

This is the big story that high school and college students in most Western countries have been shielded from hearing about – until now. Hopefully the publication of a book by two acknowledged scientific authorities on the Cambrian explosion will break the taboo that still surrounds discussion of this topic, in science classrooms – and since the authors are not Intelligent Design proponents, there can be no legal objection to a free and frank discussion of the claims made in their book. The weaknesses of the Darwinian story of the Cambrian explosion need to be exposed, for all to see.

Origin of life scenarios are plagued with problems that refuse to go away

The origin of life is often bracketed to one side by Darwinists, who argue that it falls outside the scope of the theory of evolution. But methodological naturalism (which is currently regarded as the “official” methodology of science) claims to provide a naturalistic account of origins, and in order to do that, it needs to show that the origin of life is at least a tractable problem, even if no solution to the problem has yet been found.

Last month, science reporter Suzan Mazur interviewed Dr. Steve Benner, director of the Florida-based Westheimer Institute at the Foundation for Applied Molecular Evolution, in a report for the Huffington Post. Mazur asked Dr. Benner several questions about an upcoming conference he will be chairing in January, called the “Origins of Life / Gordon Research Conference.” In the course of the interview, Benner referred to four major hurdles confronting any theory for getting from simple chemicals to a Darwinian replicator, such as RNA. Dr. Benner admitted that the track record to date in overcoming these hurdles has been one of unmitigated failure:

We have failed in any continuous way to provide a recipe that gets from the simple molecules that we know were present on early Earth to RNA. There is a discontinuous model which has many pieces, many of which have experimental support, but we’re up against these three or four paradoxes, which you and I have talked about in the past. The first paradox is the tendency of organic matter to devolve and to give tar. If you can avoid that, you can start to try to assemble things that are not tarry, but then you encounter the water problem, which is related to the fact that every interesting bond that you want to make is unstable, thermodynamically, with respect to water. If you can solve that problem, you have the problem of entropy, that any of the building blocks are going to be present in a low concentration; therefore, to assemble a large number of those building blocks, you get a gene-like RNA — 100 nucleotides long — that fights entropy. And the fourth problem is that even if you can solve the entropy problem, you have a paradox that RNA enzymes, which are maybe catalytically active, are more likely to be active in the sense that destroys RNA rather than creates RNA.

How many people know about these problems? Very few. And in case you’re wondering why, Mazur highlights the main reason at the beginning of her article: lack of transparency, illustrated by the secrecy surrounding the conference Dr. Benner will be directing later this month:

There is an elaborate registration process, a fee of over $1,000 to attend, and approval by Chairman Steve Benner required. Plus, conference goers are asked not to reveal what went on there.

(UPDATE: I have been informed that the “gag rule” is not as sinister as it sounds: it protects research-in-progress, which is often presented by conferees, and normal scientific priority concerns.)

Ms. Mazur has done the public a great service in getting a leading member of the scientific community to open up about the problems facing origin-of-life scenarios. It is high time that people realized the magnitude of the problem, and the publication of a revealing interview such as this one in the pages of The Huffington Post marks a major milestone.

Speculative new proposals, such as dynamic kinetic stability, fail to quantify, and therefore don’t deserve to be called science

During her interview with Dr. Benner, Suzan Mazur also referred to a recent paper by Robert Pascal et al., titled, Towards an evolutionary theory of the origin of life based on kinetics and thermodynamics (Open Biology, November 2013, doi: 10.1098/rsob.130156). After exposing the inadequacies of currently accepted models of the origin of life, the authors go on to propose a model of their own, in which the origin of life may have proceeded stepwise through states of partial “aliveness.” According to the authors, a rare kind of chemical stability, known as dynamic kinetic stability, was what permitted the development of entities that were capable of self-reproduction, and whose descendants gradually accumulated novel biological functions, over the course of geological time. However, the authors freely acknowledge what they refer to as “the difficulty in quantifying dynamic kinetic stability”:

Starting from the axiomatic principle that a transition to life is not physically and statistically impossible, and choosing a temperature compatible with the presence of liquid water, we end in a semi-quantitative representation consistent with life as we know it, which is based on covalent bonds and largely dependent, directly or indirectly, on visible light from the Sun (Scheme 5). This representation of the origin of life process has then the capability of explaining the living world in a consistent way. There has been a lively discussion on the opposition of Monod’s views considered above and de Duve’s ‘cosmic imperative’ [58]. Contrary to deterministic views, the ideas developed here do not allow any assessment of the level of probability of life and its emergence, nor any prediction of its evolutionary path. Rather they support the idea that spontaneous self-organization of systems manifesting many of the features of living beings is a reasonable possibility in the physical world, provided that several conditions are met.

To the untutored layperson, the authors’ suggested mechanism for the origin of life sounds plausible. And that’s precisely what’s wrong with it. The skeptical philosopher Dr. Stephen Law recently published a book about how we should form our beliefs, in which he argued that “any belief, no matter how ludicrous, can be made to be consistent with the available evidence, given a little patience and ingenuity.” Dr. Law’s point was that mere plausibility isn’t enough to make a theory true; any theory can be made to sound plausible. The only theories which are truly worthy of our belief are those which are probable, as opposed to merely plausible. And what makes a theory probable, according to Law, is the discovery of confirming evidence, which he defined as evidence such that the probability of finding it would be low, if the theory were false.

The big problem I have with the paper, Towards an evolutionary theory of the origin of life based on kinetics and thermodynamics by Pascal et al., is that it explicitly jettisons Law’s probability requirement, and lowers the evidential bar: a theory for the origin of life is now deemed adequate, so long as it is plausible. The authors contend that since it is impossible to calculate the probabilities of the emergence of life or its subsequent evolution along the pathway leading to the life-forms we observe on Earth today, it is enough to show that the evolution of life on Earth is “a reasonable possibility in the physical world” and that “a transition to life is not physically and statistically impossible.” In other words, the authors are defining plausibility, rather than probability, as the epistemic yardstick by which the theory of evolution ought to be judged. This, I have to say, is not science. And that in turn entails that modern theories of evolution are not scientific theories either, since they do not even attempt to quantify the time it should take for complex structures to evolve, which means that they should not be accorded the respect given to scientific theories.

The authors’ cavalier attitude to probability is especially problematic, in the light of recent research by Dr. Douglas Axe and Dr. Ann Gauger (see here and here), which suggests that even a relatively trivial change in the enzymatic function of a single protein is extremely unlikely to occur, and that Darwin’s mechanism would require a trillion trillion years – about 100 trillion times longer than the age of the universe – to bring it about. Axe and Gauger explain the significance of their research in highly accessible layperson’s language and respond to to their critics here, here and here.

Calculating the probabilities: Eugene Koonin admits that the origin of life requires a multiverse

The best way of getting around the improbability of life evolving on Earth is to invoke the multiverse. Dr. Eugene V. Koonin is a Senior Investigator at the National Center for Biotechnology Information, which is part of the National Library of Medicine, a branch of the National Institutes of Health, in Bethesda, Maryland, USA. Dr. Koonin is also a recognized authority in the field of evolutionary and computational biology. Recently, he authored a book, titled, The Logic of Chance: The Nature and Origin of Biological Evolution (Upper Saddle River: FT Press, 2011, ISBN 978-0-13-262317-9). I think we can fairly assume that when it comes to origin-of-life scenarios, he knows what he’s talking about.

In Appendix B of his book, The Logic of Chance, Dr. Koonin argues that the origin of life is such a remarkable event that we need to postulate a multiverse, containing a very large (and perhaps infinite) number of universes, in order to explain the emergence of life on Earth.

The reason why Dr. Koonin believes we need to postulate a multiverse in order to solve the riddle of the origin of life on Earth is that all life is dependent on replication and translation systems which are fiendishly complex. As Koonin puts it:

The origin of the translation system is, arguably, the central and the hardest problem in the study of the origin of life, and one of the hardest in all evolutionary biology. The problem has a clear catch-22 aspect: high translation fidelity hardly can be achieved without a complex, highly evolved set of RNAs and proteins but an elaborate protein machinery could not evolve without an accurate translation system.

Dr. Koonin claims that the emergence of even a basic replication-translation system on the primordial Earth is such an astronomically unlikely event that we would need to postulate a vast number of universes, in which all possible scenarios are played out, in order to make its emergence likely.

To justify this claim, Dr. Koonin provides what he calls “a rough, toy calculation of the upper bound of the probability of the emergence of a coupled replication-translation system in an O-region.” (That’s an observable universe, such as the one we live in.) The calculations on pages 434-435 in Appendix B of Dr. Koonin’s book, The Logic of Chance, are adapted from his peer-reviewed article, The Cosmological Model of Eternal Inflation and the Transition from Chance to Biological Evolution in the History of Life, Biology Direct 2 (2007): 15, doi:10.1186/1745-6150-2-15. As readers can verify for themselves, the wording is virtually identical in the 2007 article. I shall reproduce the relevant passage below (bold emphases are mine – VJT):

Probabilities of the emergence, by chance, of different versions of the breakthrough system in an O-region: a back-of-the-envelope calculation of the upper bounds

…A ribozyme replicase consisting of ~100 nucleotides is conceivable, so, in principle, spontaneous origin of such an entity in a finite universe consisting of a single O-region cannot be ruled out in this toy model (again, the rate of RNA synthesis considered here is a deliberate, gross over-estimate).

The requirements for the emergence of a primitive, coupled replication-translation system, which is considered a candidate for the breakthrough stage in this paper, are much greater. At a minimum, spontaneous formation of the following is required:

– Two rRNAs with a total size of at least 1000 nucleotides

– Approximately 10 primitive adaptors of about 30 nucleotides each, for a total of approximately 300 nucleotides

– At least one RNA encoding a replicase, about 500 nucleotides (low bound)is required. Under the notation used here, n = 1800, resulting in E <10-1018.

In other words, even in this toy model that assumes a deliberately inflated rate of RNA production, the probability that a coupled translation-replication emerges by chance in a single O-region is P < 10-1018. Obviously, this version of the breakthrough stage can be considered only in the context of a universe with an infinite (or, at the very least, extremely vast) number of O-regions.

The model considered here is not supposed to be realistic by any account. It only serves to illustrate the difference in the demands on chance for the origin of different versions of the breakthrough system and, hence, the connections between these versions and different cosmological models of the universe.

Dr. Koonin’s 2007 paper, which contained the above calculations, passed a panel of four reviewers, including one from Harvard University, who wrote:

In this work, Eugene Koonin estimates the probability of arriving at a system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution and comes to a cosmologically small number… He cites recent work in cosmology that highlights the vastness of the universe, where any series of events is necessarily played out an infinite number of times. This so-called “many-worlds in one” model essentially reconceives any chance event as a necessary one, where its (absolute) abundance is proportional to its chance of occurring.

The context of this article is framed by the current lack of a complete and plausible scenario for the origin of life. Koonin specifically addresses the front-runner model, that of the RNA-world, where self-replicating RNA molecules precede a translation system. He notes that in addition to the difficulties involved in achieving such a system is the paradox of attaining a translation system through Darwinian selection. That this is indeed a bona-fide paradox is appreciated by the fact that, without a shortage [of] effort, a plausible scenario for translation evolution has not been proposed to date. There have been other models for the origin of life, including the ground-breaking Lipid-world model advanced by Segrè, Lancet and colleagues (reviewed in EMBO Reports (2000), 1(3), 217–222), but despite much ingenuity and effort, it is fair to say that all origin of life models suffer from astoundingly low probabilities of actually occurring

…[F]uture work may show that starting from just a simple assembly of molecules, non-anthropic principles can account for each step along the rise to the threshold of Darwinian evolution. Based upon the new perspective afforded to us by Koonin this now appears unlikely. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

I am very pleased to see that the argument presented in Koonin’s peer-reviewed paper was republished in his recent book, The Logic of Chance: The Nature and Origin of Biological Evolution (Upper Saddle River: FT Press, 2011, ISBN 978-0-13-262317-9). It is encouraging to see that the experts within the field of origin-of-life studies are finally starting to speak the truth in a public forum: the origin of life on Earth, by any naturalistic scenario, must have been an astronomically improbable event. Hopefully, it won’t be too long before high school and college students get to hear about this, as well.

Why the multiverse won’t help explain the origin of life

But for all its ingenuity, Dr. Koonin’s multiverse won’t work. The multiverse hypothesis is plagued by two problems: first, it merely shifts the fine-tuning problem up one level, as a multiverse capable of generating any life-supporting universes at all would still need to be fine-tuned; and second, even the multiverse hypothesis implies that a sizable proportion of universes (including perhaps our own) were intelligently designed. Once again, the articles arguing for these conclusions are written by highly respected authorities in the field.

Dr. Robin Collins is a Professor of Philosophy and chair of the Department of Philosophy at Messiah College in Grantham, Pennsylvania. Dr. Collins also spent two years in a Ph.D. program in Physics at the University of Texas at Austin before transferring to the University of Notre Dame where he received a Ph.D. in philosophy in 1993. In an influential essay entitled, The Teleological Argument: An Exploration of the Fine-Tuning of the Universe (in The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology, edited by William Lane Craig and J. P. Moreland, 2009, Blackwell Publishing Ltd.), Dr. Robin Collins offers a scientific explanation of why even a “multiverse-generator” would still fail to eliminate the need for fine-tuning:

[A]s a test case, consider the inflationary type multiverse generator. In order for it to explain the fine-tuning of the constants, it must hypothesize one or more “mechanisms” for laws that will do the following [four] things: (i) cause the expansion of a small region of space into a very large region; (ii) generate the very large amount of mass-energy needed for that region to contain matter instead of merely empty space; (iii) convert the mass-energy of inflated space to the sort of mass-energy we find in our universe; and (iv) cause sufficient variations among the constants of physics to explain their fine-tuning.

[T]o achieve (i)–(ii), we effectively have a sort of “conspiracy” between at least two different factors: the inflaton field that gives empty space a positive energy density, and Einstein’s equation… of General Relativity, which dictates that space expand at an enormous rate in the presence of a large near-homogenous positive energy density… Without either factor, there would neither be regions of space that inflate nor would those regions have the mass-energy necessary for a universe to exist.

In addition to the four factors listed, the fundamental physical laws underlying a multiverse generator – whether of the inflationary type or some other – must be just right in order for it to produce life-permitting universes, instead of merely dead universes. Specifically, these fundamental laws must be such as to allow the conversion of the mass-energy into material forms that allow for the sort of stable complexity needed for complex intelligent life…

In sum, even if an inflationary-superstring multiverse generator exists, it must have just the right combination of laws and fields for the production of life-permitting universes: if one of the components were missing or different, such as Einstein’s equation or the Pauli Exclusion Principle, it is unlikely that any life-permitting universes could be produced. Consequently, at most, this highly speculative scenario would explain the fine-tuning of the constants of physics, but at the cost of postulating additional fine-tuning of the laws of nature.

There’s another problem with the multiverse hypothesis, too. Physicist Paul Davies has argued that the multiverse hypothesis is just as “theological” as the hypothesis that there is a God, since it implies the existence of intelligently designed universes:

Among the myriad universes similar to ours will be some in which technological civilizations advance to the point of being able to simulate consciousness. Eventually, entire virtual worlds will be created inside computers, their conscious inhabitants unaware that they are the simulated products of somebody else’s technology. For every original world, there will be a stupendous number of available virtual worlds – some of which would even include machines simulating virtual worlds of their own, and so on ad infinitum.

Taking the multiverse theory at face value, therefore, means accepting that virtual worlds are more numerous than “real” ones. There is no reason to expect our world – the one in which you are reading this right now – to be real as opposed to a simulation. And the simulated inhabitants of a virtual world stand in the same relationship to the simulating system as human beings stand in relation to the traditional Creator.

Far from doing away with a transcendent Creator, the multiverse theory actually injects that very concept at almost every level of its logical structure. Gods and worlds, creators and creatures, lie embedded in each other, forming an infinite regress in unbounded space.

— Paul Davies, A Brief History of the Multiverse, New York Times, 12 April 2003.

Both Collins’ and Davies’ articles, which expose the flaws in appealing to the multiverse hypothesis as an alternative to theism, are freely available at Websites which make no attempt to push a theistic worldview: Collins’ paper is available at commonsenseatheism.com/, for instance. As such, these sites are above suspicion, and teachers wishing to foster critical thinking skills in their students should not hesitate to make use of the articles they contain, which call into question not only the Darwinian theory of evolution, but also the reigning naturalistic worldview.

Let us hope, then, that 2014 brings further good tidings in the fight against ignorance and scientific “groupthink.”

Comments
I think whats astonishing is how many dont believe in evolution. I hope no one here is suggesting that the earth 6000 is not billions of years old because thats the same kind of denial of the facts that atheists use. I do agree that the probabilities needs to be addressed--as there is no way, even in a trillions years, that the universe can bring forth the eye. That cells somehow knew there was something to see and hear when they designed the eye and the ear? A blind baby, put on a deserted island could never even begin to conceive that there was such a thing as light. A visible universe. The universe bought forth beings that can See it and comprehend it.... That alone is believing in Magic. BTW, I studied Evo, have a science degree, and understand how the eye developed and what these gullible people dont get is there are infinite amount of mutations that could have occurred, and to hit on the one that eventually allows for observers to witness the universe(multiple times)--as a 3 dimensional construct that also allows for dreams to produce it own 3 dimensional world that is not discernible from the real world is accepting miracles occur. Everyone knows, in their heart, that it is utter nonsense this insanely complex system has no author. You're fighting logic and reason. So whether God intervened in evolution or simply knew that the initial conditions of the universe, if arranged in just the right way would branch off to created humans naturally...there is no way to accept those kind of probabilities. So if someone says they dont believe in evolution because we didnt evolve at all..I would say you're being just like the atheists, whose bias of what they want to be true destroys logic. Obviously the theory has many problems which they wont admit--that too must change. I do believe that if scientists want to know why so many people dont accept the raw data--I think its because no one trusts these irrational atheists. They tell us time is an illusion, that we have no freewill--which is self refuting, They told us the world only "appears" designed, then they find out the math looks infinitely more designed than the appearance--so they postulate multiverse because they reject their own data, even Einstein fudged his equations because he didnt want a Beginning to the universe... So if you want to know why no one trusts you..its because you're pathologically biased and have been denying we are even real people, with no freewill and no real feelings. YOU, my friends...are Abnormalserious123
March 21, 2014
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Mark Frank noted
ID needs a hypothesis showing how it is possible to assemble the first living thing while complying with natural laws, once we admit that the functional information itself is already present in the consciousness of the designer, or can in some way be actively searched by the designer by conscious and intelligent planning. And that the designer can interact with matter at some level, which remains to be defined and investigated.
What's even harder is for the designer to comply with Physical Laws as we currently know them before those laws actually existed. The appearance of the first bits of light and matter before there was any (along with time and space itself) must have been "supranatural" by definition. My point is that "supranatural" might be a better word to use than "supernatural", which has a lot of mystical and religious connotations. Who knows, maybe the designer had to go back and tweak hydrogen bonding to make solid water less dense than liquid water to prevent the oceans from freezing solid. ;-) -QQuerius
January 10, 2014
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MF:
The key thing to understand is that there is no way for science to investigate a supernatural hypothesis.
YOU are not in any position to make that claim, Mark.
No experiments, no observations, nothing.
Wrong- if we observed something disobeying the laws of nature then that would count as something. But anyway, ID does NOT require the supernatural. Mark's position requires something other than natural processes as natural processes only exist in nature and therefor cannot for its origin, which scvience says it had.Joe
January 9, 2014
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MF:
You have a theory about what happened once the first living thing was created.
And yet you can't reference this alleged theory.
But that, by definition, is not abiogenesis.
Any theory of evolution HAS to contain the OoL as the two are directly linked.
It omits any mention of the mechanism for evolution but the pattern of descent could be tested.
The pattern of design could also be tested.Joe
January 9, 2014
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Mark: Your comment #122 shows well what IMO is a common misunderstanding of ID. I will try to clarify my view about that point. ID is certainly a scientific theory, but it is in no way a final theory, or a theory of everything. It is, rather, a general approach to some specific problems (the generation of dFSCI in things), which includes a conscious agent as the origin of that complex functional information. In that sense, it is more a general paradigm for functional information in nature. In no way it escapes the need of any scientific theory: further hypotheses, testing and inquiry about the observables (new facts, new interpretations of facts). Let's take my suggested theory about OOL. Indeed, its starting point is the idea, implied by ID theory, that the huge functional information in the first living beings (FUCA) was inputted by some conscious intelligent agents. One important consequence of that approach is that the emergence of FUCA, as inferred by observable facts, may have been rather "sudden", in the sense that it may have not required the very long (indeed almost infinite) times that could "keep in the game" non design theories like neo darwinism. Another important consequence is that there is no need of "simpler precursors" (which, however, have never been observed, neither directly nor indirectly). IOWs, according to the ID approach, FUCA could well have been a prokaryote,like LUCA, complete with the basic protein systems necessary to life and reproduction (hubdreds of complex proteins). IOWs, the design in OOL is potentially detectable, as the only reasonable explanation for the emergence of a huge amount of functional information in relatively short natural history times, and without any traceable previous steps. These are all definite scientific predictions suggested by an ID approach. They are, moreover, reasonable predictions (in the ID framework), because they are in perfect accord with many already known facts: that prokaryotes are the simplest autonomous living beings known, that no living being is known who has not the basic systems for reproduction based on DNA, RNA and proteins, that all theories for OOL which assume a gradual emergence of FUCA meet huge logical and empirical difficulties, most of them reasonably impossible to be solved, that our present understanding of LUCA and of its relationship with natural history and geological times is in perfect accord with the hypothesis, and so on. That said, it is very clear that a lot of scientific problems remain to be solved, even in the ID context, and in particular even if we accept my hypothesis as a working frame. The most important of all, obviously, is the modality of implementation of the functional information that was inputted in FUCA. IOWs, ID simply assumes that the information was inputted by a conscious agent. My personal version of ID assumes that the conscious agent, or agents, was not physical, but could influence matter, probably at quantum level, probably without violating known physical laws, or maybe using physical laws concerning the consciousness matter interface which are still not understood by us. However, the designer certainly operated in some way that must be "observable" from our side, that is in terms of physical outputs. That is obviously open to inquiry, to research, to hypotheses. In no way I think that ID supporters have any idea of those details, but those details must be investigated. They can be investigated, and will be investigated. There are many lines of research that could help. The first, and more basic, is to try to understand better the consciousness-matter interface, forgetting for a moment the lies that prevail today about consciousness (string AI theory) and reasoning in a more scientific and empirical way about this fundamental issue. Much can be done in that sense, because we have an important empirical model: our own observable conscious events and actions. A second line, as I have suggested, is to deepen our understanding of biology and of natural history. That is being done. Our constantly increasing knowledge about the proteome, the genome, the transcriptome, and all the other "omes" that are so fashionable today, is a precious source of understanding. I have many times stated that each new day brings important facts, and that all of them are invariably in favor of an ID approach. It is important, however, that facts are interpreted correctly. The ID paradigm is important, and it must be included into the scientific approach, for the simple reason that it can definitely be the right paradigm, and that there are many reasons to believe that. In no way am I suggesting that other paradigm, including obviously neo darwinism, should be discarded. As I have recently affirmed, I believe that scientific advancement comes from open controversy. I really believe that. In your post #123, you state: "Well if the designer has to comply with natural laws then ID needs a hypothesis showing how it is possible to assemble the first living thing while complying with natural laws. How are the appropriate chemicals brought together in a fashion that is sustainable in the environment of the time. i.e. ID has to solve almost exactly the same problems of abiogenesis as non-ID." Not exactly. You are certainly correct in stating that any detailed ID theory about abiogenesis needs "a hypothesis showing how it is possible to assemble the first living thing while complying with natural laws". That is exactly my idea too. But it should be re-stated, in an ID context, in the following way: "ID needs a hypothesis showing how it is possible to assemble the first living thing while complying with natural laws, once we admit that the functional information itself is already present in the consciousness of the designer, or can in some way be actively searched by the designer by conscious and intelligent planning. And that the designer can interact with matter at some level, which remains to be defined and investigated." IOWs, there are a lot of scientific problems that remain to be solved for any ID theory of OOL. But they are not "the same problems of abiogenesis as non-ID". Any non ID theory must solve not only those problems, but also the most important problem of all: how was the functional information generated or found without any intervention of a conscious intelligent agent. That problem, IMO, will never be solved, for the simple truth (always IMO) that complex functional information cannot be generated without the intervention of a conscious intelligent agent. So, the problems common to ID and non ID theories are huge, but they are all potentially solvable. But the problem of the emergence of huge functional information could well be "solvable" only in an ID context. That would simply mean that any non ID theory of OOL is intrinsically doomed from the beginning. And that is exactly what I believe. One last comment. OOL is certainly the best and the worst scenario to be investigated. It is the best, because huge amounts of new original dFSCI were certainly generated at OOL, however that happened. So, it is the best scenario to understand how functional information can be generated. Unfortunately, it is also the most difficult scenario because it is the most ancient, and the one about which we have really few facts. I would suggest that much can be understood about OOL by assuming very simply that similar mechanisms could be the best explanation for the emergence of dFSCI both at OOL and later, whenever new species appear. IOWs. the origin of functional information is such a "miracle", from all points of view, that it is really unlikely that two completely different explanations exist for its appearance at OOL and after that. After all, exactly the same kind of information appears at both points: new genes, new proteins, new interactions between proteins, new regulations, and so on. So, why should different explanations be involved? IOWs, if we understand how the Cambrian explosion happened (and we may have many more facts about that issue), we will have probably understood much of how OOL happened. You can call that a very simple application of the abused principle of Occam's razor, if you like.gpuccio
January 9, 2014
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#121 Eric Well if the designer has to comply with natural laws then ID needs a hypothesis showing how it is possible to assemble the first living thing while complying with natural laws. How are the appropriate chemicals brought together in a fashion that is sustainable in the environment of the time. i.e. ID has to solve almost exactly the same problems of abiogenesis as non-ID.Mark Frank
January 8, 2014
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Gpuccio I only just noticed this - so maybe too late to get your attention. You have a theory about what happened once the first living thing was created. But that, by definition, is not abiogenesis. It is a strange theory about evolution which could, I admit, in theory be investigated. It omits any mention of the mechanism for evolution but the pattern of descent could be tested. My point is that your theory about how the first living thing - this FUCA - came about is just "a sudden assemblage of inorganic materials" which is not a theory at all.Mark Frank
January 8, 2014
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Mark Frank:
The key thing to understand is that there is no way for science to investigate a supernatural hypothesis. No experiments, no observations, nothing. That is true by definition. If something is supernatural it goes beyond the bounds of nature and does not conform to natural laws. So there are no constraints and all results are possible.
I don't even know what people mean most of the time when they use the word "supernatural," so I would certainly not be suggesting that anyone try to investigate something that is "supernatural." Furthermore, there is zero evidence that designers (including the designer(s) of life) ever do anything that does "not conform to natural laws," so there is no need to rest on the facile approach that "Well, we can't investigate miracles, so we'll just throw our hands up." We don't have to get into investigating the supernatural or things beyond the laws of nature. Living systems exist. They exist in time. They exist within the parameters of natural laws. Their existence certainly doesn't violate any natural laws.* ID asks a very limited question: Is it possible that some aspects of living systems were designed, and if so, can we tell? Nothing about supernatural. Nothing about violating laws of nature. Nothing about who the designers are. Nothing about things that aren't subject to investigation. We have the systems. They are here. What can we learn from them and infer about their likely origin. That's it. ----- This should go without saying, but I'm going to say it anyway so that there is no room for confusion. "Not violating natural laws" does not mean "produced solely by natural and material forces without any intelligent guidance or input." There are obviously millions of exquisitely-designed objects in our world that were not produced solely by natural and material material forces. But their existence doesn't violate any natural laws. Indeed, natural laws were taken into account and used when they were designed.Eric Anderson
January 8, 2014
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Ehm, should have been this way: Mark:
But all his hypothesis says about abiogenesis is that there was a sudden assemblage of inorganic materials to form the first prokaryotic cell! How do you falsify that?
I am suprised that you ask that. My hypothesis is that LUCA is also FUCA, and that LUCA appeared early enough to invalidate all currents theories of OOL, and to defin itely support a design origin. That is certainly falsifiable. We could demonstrate that FUCA existed, that it was different from LUCA, that there was a reasonable darwinian evolutionary path from FUCA to LUCA, that LUCA appeared in more recent times, allowing time for darwinian evolution. How is it that you darwinists become so reluctant, as soon as realistic possible falsifications of ID theories are suggested? My impression is that, lacking any scientific argument against ID (or in favor of neo darwinism), your desperate hope is to exclude ID from the scientific debate by philosophical or pseudo-methodological “arguments”. Well, that’s a very good sign for ID.gpuccio
January 6, 2014
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Mark: blockquote cite>But all his hypothesis says about abiogenesis is that there was a sudden assemblage of inorganic materials to form the first prokaryotic cell! How do you falsify that? I a m suprised that you ask that. My hypothesis is that LUCA is also FUCA, and that LUCA appeared early enough to invalidate all currents theories of OOL, and to defin itely support a design origin. That is certainly falsifiable. We could demonstrate that FUCA existed, that it was different from LUCA, that there was a reasonable darwinian evolutionary path from FUCA to LUCA, that LUCA appeared in more recent times, allowing time for darwinian evolution. How is it that you darwinists become so reluctant, as soon as realistic possible falsifications of ID theories are suggested? My impression is that, lacking any scientific argument against ID (or in favor of neo darwinism), your desperate hope is to exclude ID from the scientific debate by philosophical or pseudo-methodological "arguments". Well, that's a very good sign for ID.gpuccio
January 6, 2014
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nightlight, Oh, and the reason that I was thinking of CA/GoL floaters was in context with an admittedly farfetched OOL speculation about short, independent RNA segments forming a symbiotic relationship with something like coacervates. -QQuerius
January 5, 2014
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Eric @115 The key thing to understand is that there is no way for science to investigate a supernatural hypothesis. No experiments, no observations, nothing. That is true by definition. If something is supernatural it goes beyond the bounds of nature and does not conform to natural laws. So there are no constraints and all results are possible. So if something is proving difficult to explain, scientists have two options: * Keep on looking for natural explanations * Stop trying to investigate it scientifically You might say that perhaps the designer was natural - but do you really believe it?Mark Frank
January 5, 2014
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F/N: I just had time to look at the introductory video in the page of alleged best videos. I got as far as the point where the narrator superciliously and with an air of confidence spoke about how if you are a Creationist here is a chance to educate yourself. Sorry, he lost me there, this is little more than the Dawkins ill-bred taunt, that if you disagree with his evolutionary materialism then you must be one (or more) of ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. Any number of Creationists and design thinkers are at least as educated as the narrator, and have serious points. It is time for atheistical arrogance to be laid to one side. KF PS: He should also know that showing (from context, ignorant) Creationists as young women twice in rapid succession itself is highly loaded.kairosfocus
January 5, 2014
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Mark Frank @110: You put a very positive spin on it. Yes, if everyone were objective and open with the numerous (and what are currently insurmountable) problems with OOL, then we could all sit back and say, "Well, they are doing the best they can. That is how science operates." And, indeed, I am sure that there are many people in the OOL research community who deserve that kind of respect and deference. However . . . There are a great many, particularly those pushing a materialistic worldview, who are convinced that materialistic OOL is a reality. Not based on the evidence, but on an a priori commitment. We hear about it all the time, and it pervades not only the news, but the scientific literature. OOL is a fact, we are told, we just need to work some details. I even heard a City Arts and Lectures evening on NPR with Richard Dawkins a couple of months ago in which he had the audacity to proclaim to the audience, in effect, "we have a pretty good idea how life came about." Absolute nonsense. We don't have a clue, at least from a materialistic standpoint. It's not just details; none of the theories even passes the laugh test. Look, I don't object to OOL research. It is interesting in its own right. It also has taught us many things about what is required for life -- in essentially all cases it has taught us about the many insurmountable challenges to a materialistic OOL. So fine, let's carry on the research. But there is also an important need to keep an eye on the ball and not let claims go beyond the actual evidence. That goes for the scientists involved and -- probably more often -- those outside who keep pushing OOL as though it were a fact. ----- Finally, to the extent anyone is interested in how life got started (and many people are), then drawing an inference as to the most likely explanation is a legitimate exercise. When many of us have looked at the evidence it becomes quite clear that a naturalistic OOL is not the most likely scenario, whichever in vogue permutation happens to be in the news or in the research labs. So it is perfectly legitimate to criticize not only specific theories, but also the broad idea generally and to propose design as a potential alternative.Eric Anderson
January 5, 2014
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MF:
A theory based on design is immune to any kind of experiment or refutation unless you want to get specific.
That is total BS and demosntraes scientific ignorance on Mark's part. Stonehenge lacks specifics yet we sday it was designed- no one knows how. And we could falsify that design if we ever observed nature, operating freely, producing a Stonehenge.Joe
January 5, 2014
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PPS: I picked the page with a long list of sites debunking "religion." It would be helpful for you to compare their talk about irreducible complexity with this ID Foundations post on IC here at UD; with particular reference to Menuge's list of requisites C1 - 5. Failing a successful and well grounded answer to the issues in the UD post, you are looking at the little more than the fallacy of hurling the elephant . . . it does not even amount to a literature bluff as this is not really at serious academic level. A great mass of fallacious claims does not make up in bulk what is wanting in substance, especially if the cases do not actually address what is specifically at stake but set off after red herrings -- "exposing religion" and setting up and soaking strawmen in ad hominems -- ditto -- then igniting the same to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere -- "exposing." (And since you have raised the issue of "religion" in an obviously hostile context, I point you to a 101 on the foundational warranting argument of the Christian faith here on in context.) So also, you would be well advised to scroll up to the top of the page, click on the resources tab and work your way through the weak argument correctives, the definition of ID, and the glossary of key terms. Feeding your mind on a steady diet of fallacies and debate talking points pivoting on such is not a way to make good intellectual progress. Instead, if you are coming from a base of just learning how to stand up and walk, you will be very likely to stumble again and again.kairosfocus
January 5, 2014
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Oops, I added a 3rd fairly involved point. KFkairosfocus
January 5, 2014
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J1: In addition to Dr Torley's suggestion, I would think you should sort out three basics, and two fairly involved things:
B1: Straight thinking 101 B2: Fixing the problem of rhetorical or agit-prop spin-tactics "everywhere" B3: Understanding basics of scientific methods and approaches, beyond what is in B1. I1: Setting out on building a worldview (sorry, you have opened that can of worms) I2: Basic philosophical thinking tool kit I3: A Critical survey of origins science informed by a design perspective.
Yes, that is a fairly serious bit of work in aggregate, but that sort of issue is implied by the set of issues you have raised. at least, if you intend to stand on your own two feet intellectually. KF PS: Have you worked through the response regarding a first, major icon of evolutionary materialism and its illustration of typical defects in evolutionary materialist thinking here on? (As in, you have called forth a full ID Foundations numbered post in a series that runs back to Jan 2011.) If so, why not make some specific comments there? And failing that, why should we take the piling up of links to typically badly error-riddled materialist sites seriously? Where also this very page lays out details on major problems with OOL.kairosfocus
January 5, 2014
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VJ #98
What they need to come clean about is the following: 1. None of the theories of the origin of life presented in science textbooks are even plausible, let alone probable. All of them face four massive hurdles, highlighted by Dr. Steve Benner in his interview with Suzan Mazur: the tar problem, the water problem, the entropy problem and the RNA enzyme problem. You and I were never told about these problems when we studied the origin of life at school. Why not?
I was not given any courses on the origin of life at school. It was not part of the biology curriculum. Are you saying these problems (if they are real) are being hidden by the scientific community? Are you sure they are not being discussed? I don’t have time to trawl the literature. But in any case none of the theories are being presented as proven or even likely. 
2. Even allowing that there exists a half-way plausible theory of the origin of life (such as dynamic kinetic stability), it isn’t quantifiable, and therefore: (a) its probability can’t be calculated; (b) in the absence of quantification, it isn’t legitimate science. At school, we were always told that scientific thinking was supposed to be rigorous and logical. It’s not logical to conclude that somethingmust have happened (life must have arisen naturally), when you can’t even calculate the probability of its happening in the first place.
To repeat – nobody is claiming that any particular theory must have happened. The science is still extremely tentative and does not hide this. How else could there be so many competing theories?
3. Calculations with toy models of the probability of the origin of life indicate that even with extremely generous assumptions about the concentrations of organic chemicals in the primordial soup, the chances of life arising are 1 in 10^(1,000) or so, which is ridiculously low. Once again: why weren’t we told?
Whose calculations based on what models? Are you sure this isn’t just the design argument again?
As I’ve argued above, the four problems Dr. Benner alluded to (the tar problem, the water problem, the entropy problem and the RNA enzyme problem) show that the chemistry doesn’t make sense. As for initial conditions, no scientist has yet identified a set of initial conditions that makes the origin of life a statistically probable event. And there are no places on earth where we can observe any of the steps that are supposed to have occurred in abiogenesis – which is why scientists try to recreate them in the lab instead.
That’s not the point. The point is that at least these theories are open to experiment and dispute –as you are vividly explaining – and scientists are doing the work and reporting the results. A theory based on design is immune to any kind of experiment or refutation  unless you want to get specific.  How can scientists begin to do science on it?
That said, I have to say I’m impressed with gpuccio’s hypothesis in #29 above, re OOL. It sounds promising, and it makes falsifiable predictions. I’d also propose that the first cell should have been optimally designed to evolve under natural conditions (an important point, as not all self-replicating systems are capable of evolving).
But all his hypothesis says about abiogenesis is that there was a sudden assemblage of inorganic materials to form the first prokaryotic cell! How do you falsify that?
Re (2) [prior probabilities]: Laplace’s rule of succession tells you that the prior probability of life’s having been created by a Designer can be no less than 1 in 10^150 (the maximum number of events in the observable universe).
Rubbish – I am sorry but that way you could prove that the probability of any conceivable event was less than 1 in 10^150 
Re (3) [posterior probabilities]: if our design hypothesis stipulates that the Intelligent Designer was willing and able to generate life, then the probability of His actually doing so, given the opportunity, is obviously high.
Yes of course if you postulate a designer with the appropriate powers and motivation then you can make the posterior close to 1. It is the prior that is the problem. My main point is that I don't understand what you think scientists should do differently. They make conjectures about the origin of life. As a community they identify problems, do experiments and make observations (it is the nature of science that it is often another scientist who points out the problems - people have loyalty to their pet hypothesis). No one claims to have the answer yet. It seems like the way science should proceed.Mark Frank
January 4, 2014
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Eric Anderson
As to design, if you are suggesting that one has to have a specific understanding of what design method was used to infer an artifact was designed, that is simply wrong. For one thing, there are myriad examples of things that are inferred to be designed, where the precise path to the design is not known.
We may not know the precise path to the design but we do have to have some method of assessing the plausibility of there being a designer with the appropriate abilities and motivation. 
Furthermore, design is not a purely mechanistic process in the same way that necessity or chance are, so if we were demanding to see a mechanistic explanation of design we would miss the whole point.
I don’t agree that there is a relevant difference. It is still possible to assess the probability of an outcome given a hypothesis of a designer with the appropriate powers and motivation. But these are old oft-repeated arguments. I suggest there is little point in going over them again.Mark Frank
January 4, 2014
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Thanks vjtorley let me now your thoughts on the website and all the youtube accounts it would create good blog posts and discussion. Heres one on human evolution too: http://exposingreligionblog.tumblr.com/post/29779540482Jaceli123
January 4, 2014
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Forgot to link the article on this site that I talked about, about the linked youtube video! Heres the link: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/darwinist-propoganda-refuted-by-other-darwinists/Jaceli123
January 4, 2014
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Hi Jaceli123, Thanks very much for the links to materialist Websites. Re your science course: your teacher sounds somewhat disengaged, so you might like to try doing a MOOC on evolution in your spare time, to learn better how to refute it. If you want a good book on the subject, Ernst Mayr's "What Evolution Is" is a book I'd recommend, as well as "Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters" by Donald Prothero.vjtorley
January 4, 2014
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vjtorley @ 98 Bravo, nicely stated!
What I’m saying is that identifying the Designer’s modus operandi is going to be a very difficult task, because of the inherent limitations of our intelligence. We might not even be capable of doing so; for all we know, we may only be capable of grasping that something was designed by the Designer, without ever being able to understand how.
One of the fundamental assumptions of Science is that we humans are capable of understanding it. As you point out, this is not a given. -QQuerius
January 4, 2014
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Mark Frank #64 (or any materialists) Again quoting UprightBiped's original question:
The Space Shuttle follows the laws of chemistry and physics as well… but its origin is not explained by them. How do you make room for agent intervention as a real force in nature, and how do you balance your views to ensure that you do not discount that reality in preference to a speculation that can be foreever postulated, and therefore never brought to a test of its validity?
This is a simple question but I will rephrase it: Currently we find ourselves surrounded by complex, functioning objects that completely conform to the laws of physics, but required intelligent agency for their assembly and function. Therefore, in the ongoing search for the origin of life, what is your approach for considering this type of known, empirically verified agency as a possible source? Prediction: This simple, straightforward question will again be carefully avoided.lifepsy
January 4, 2014
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nightlight @ 65 said, in part
In that [computational] perspective, biology is not reducible to chemistry and physics, but all of them are merely different incomplete glimpses at the same underlying computational activity.
Thank you. This is a great insight, and I agree with it. Today on a long drive, I was coincidentally also thinking of floaters, their chance formation and destruction, and the experiments that I used to do with a software product called CA Lab (cellular automata). In addition, I was thinking of the Antikythera mechanism as an analog to physical laws of the universe, yielding accurate results but not being itself an accurate physical model of the solar system. Scordova mentioned that your background is in quantum mechanics. I hope you don't mind my asking you a question. What constitutes "observation" that's sufficient to collapse a quantum system? Would a clueless human count? How about a well-read chimpanzee, or a desperate Schroedinger's cat staring intently at a single atom of an unstable isotope? Just wondering. Thanks, -Q - - - - Science stops here at dotted line (no peeking) - - - - In the beginning was the Logos (translated as "Word" from the Greek), and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. John 1:1-5Querius
January 4, 2014
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I think it would be cool if we could engage in a discussion about YouTube materialists and evolutionists like, Donexodus2, AronA and Discovering Religion. They have tons of supposed rebuttals against Intelligent Design. Ive seen posts about the YouTube subject including one about my video link. Heres some sites that have many links to the materialists channels: http://introducedrat.com/evolution.htm And http://exposingreligionblog.tumblr.com/post/8154081516 Hope we can discuss this!Jaceli123
January 4, 2014
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Thanks scordova by the way im the only one in class who listens, asks questions and tries to understand. I engage in it even though my teacher doesnt teaches us much. I havent pissed him off yet from asking questions. I think im his favorite student. It doesnt matter any way because each unit last a week and theres a test every week. He takes 5 minutes to teach us then he jumps on facebook or surfs the web. Its kind of sad but atleast it intrest me. Never thought I would get interested by this subject. Always thought it was nerdy and geeky but here I am. Anyway JLFan2001 im not here to start a conflict with you because im not a debater or a good arguer. So I suggest you stop trying to respond to everything I comment or say because im not in the mood.Jaceli123
January 4, 2014
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F/N: It may help to refocus attention on the design inference regarding cell based life, courtesy Meyer, in his response to a hostile review of his key 2009 Design Theory book, Signature in the Cell:
The central argument of my book is that intelligent design—the activity of a conscious and rational deliberative agent—best explains the origin of the information necessary to produce the first living cell. I argue this because of two things that we know from our uniform and repeated experience, which following Charles Darwin I take to be the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past. First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals. In other words, intelligent design is the only explanation that cites a cause known to have the capacity to produce the key effect in question . . . . In order to [[scientifically refute this inductive conclusion] Falk would need to show that some undirected material cause has [[empirically] demonstrated the power to produce functional biological information apart from the guidance or activity a designing mind. Neither Falk, nor anyone working in origin-of-life biology, has succeeded in doing this . . . .
Meyer then gives even more details, with particular reference to the origin of cell-based life:
The central problem facing origin-of-life researchers is neither the synthesis of pre-biotic building blocks (which Sutherland’s work addresses) or even the synthesis of a self-replicating RNA molecule (the plausibility of which Joyce and Tracey’s work seeks to establish, albeit unsuccessfully . . . [[Meyer gives details in the linked page]). Instead, the fundamental problem is getting the chemical building blocks to arrange themselves into the large information-bearing molecules (whether DNA or RNA) . . . . For nearly sixty years origin-of-life researchers have attempted to use pre-biotic simulation experiments to find a plausible pathway by which life might have arisen from simpler non-living chemicals, thereby providing support for chemical evolutionary theory. While these experiments have occasionally yielded interesting insights about the conditions under which certain reactions will or won’t produce the various small molecule constituents of larger bio-macromolecules, they have shed no light on how the information in these larger macromolecules (particularly in DNA and RNA) could have arisen. Nor should this be surprising in light of what we have long known about the chemical structure of DNA and RNA. As I show in Signature in the Cell, the chemical structures of DNA and RNA allow them to store information precisely because chemical affinities between their smaller molecular subunits do not determine the specific arrangements of the bases in the DNA and RNA molecules. Instead, the same type of chemical bond (an N-glycosidic bond) forms between the backbone and each one of the four bases, allowing any one of the bases to attach at any site along the backbone, in turn allowing an innumerable variety of different sequences. This chemical indeterminacy is precisely what permits DNA and RNA to function as information carriers. It also dooms attempts to account for the origin of the information—the precise sequencing of the bases—in these molecules as the result of deterministic chemical interactions . . . . [[W]e now have a wealth of experience showing that what I call specified or functional information (especially if encoded in digital form) does not arise from purely physical or chemical antecedents [[--> i.e. by blind, undirected forces of chance and necessity]. Indeed, the ribozyme engineering and pre-biotic simulation experiments that Professor Falk commends to my attention actually lend additional inductive support to this generalization. On the other hand, we do know of a cause—a type of cause—that has demonstrated the power to produce functionally-specified information. That cause is intelligence or conscious rational deliberation. As the pioneering information theorist Henry Quastler once observed, “the creation of information is habitually associated with conscious activity.” And, of course, he was right. Whenever we find information—whether embedded in a radio signal, carved in a stone monument, written in a book or etched on a magnetic disc—and we trace it back to its source, invariably we come to mind, not merely a material process. Thus, the discovery of functionally specified, digitally encoded information along the spine of DNA, provides compelling positive evidence of the activity of a prior designing intelligence. This conclusion is not based upon what we don’t know. It is based upon what we do know from our uniform experience about the cause and effect structure of the world—specifically, what we know about what does, and does not, have the power to produce large amounts of specified information . . . . [[In conclusion,] it needs to be noted that the [[now commonly asserted and imposed limiting rule on scientific knowledge, the] principle of methodological naturalism [[ that scientific explanations may only infer to "natural[[istic] causes"] is an arbitrary philosophical assumption, not a principle that can be established or justified by scientific observation itself. Others of us, having long ago seen the pattern in pre-biotic simulation experiments, to say nothing of the clear testimony of thousands of years of human experience, have decided to move on. We see in the information-rich structure of life a clear indicator of intelligent activity and have begun to investigate living systems accordingly. If, by Professor Falk’s definition, that makes us philosophers rather than scientists, then so be it. But I suspect that the shoe is now, instead, firmly on the other foot. [[Meyer, Stephen C: Response to Darrel Falk’s Review of Signature in the Cell, SITC web site, 2009. (Emphases and parentheses added.)]
Thus, in the context of a pivotal example -- the functionally specific, complex information stored in the well-known genetic code -- we see laid out the inductive logic and empirical basis for design theory as a legitimate (albeit obviously controversial) scientific investigation and conclusion. KFkairosfocus
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PS: and that reminds me I have to address specifically the import of MF's assertion of "genuinely random uncaused events," which -- with all due respect to those who have so erred -- is an absurdity. An event has a beginning so there are circumstances under which it does or did not already happen, That is, it depends for existence or occurrence on external enabling on/off factors. It cannot be uncaused. We may not know a sufficient set of causal factors to force its occurrence, but by the mere fact of a beginning we know there are causally necessary, enabling factors. No unstable nucleus, no alpha decay, to give a simple case in point.kairosfocus
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