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Origin of Life: Professor James Tour points the way forward for Intelligent Design

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Professor James Tour’s recent video, The Origin of Life – An Inside Story, managed to accomplish three things at once: it shattered the credibility of abiogenesis as a theory; it provided American high school science teachers with an excellent classroom resource for countering evolutionary propaganda; and (perhaps unintentionally), it set a new research agenda for the Intelligent Design movement, which will transform it into a bona fide scientific discipline: the task of reverse-engineering life itself.

Readers who wish to view the talk may do so here:

Why Tour’s talk is the perfect resource for American high school science teachers who want to counteract evolutionary propaganda

At the beginning of his talk, Tour explicitly declared that he would make no reference to “scientifically unknown entities that have been proposed to have seeded life on Earth, such as a design agent (personal or impersonal)”, or the outlandish theory that the Earth was seeded by aliens (panspermia), which merely pushes back the question of life’s origin: where did the aliens come from? This is an important point, because as most readers will be aware, the Dover vs. Kitzmiller decision of 2005 ruled that the teaching of Intelligent Design in public school biology classes violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, on the grounds that Intelligent Design is not science and “cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents.” No such objection could possibly be made against Professor Tour’s talk, which will (I believe) prove to be an invaluable teaching resource in American high school science classrooms. For the question of how life evolved cannot be divorced from the question of how life originated: the straitjacket of methodological naturalism, which currently reigns supreme in the scientific world, demands a naturalistic answer to both questions. If the origin of life cannot be explained in this way, then that should weaken scientists’ confidence that macroevolution can be explained without appealing to any intelligently guided processes.

It is important to note that Professor Tour never attempted to refute abiogenesis as a scientific theory, in his talk. Rather, his aim was more modest: to show that the Emperor has no clothes, and that current theories about how life might have evolved are mere speculation, unsupported by a shred of evidence. The take-home message of his talk was that currently, scientists know nothing about how the ingredients of life originated, let alone life itself. Nevertheless, I believe that precisely because Professor Tour’s talk was framed as an expose of the inadequacy of current theories of abiogenesis rather than as a scientific refutation, it did a much better job of undermining the credibility of the idea. For what it showed is that for sixty years, scientists have been “telling lies for Darwin” (to adapt a phrase coined by Ian Plimer) and presenting the problem of life’s origin as a work in progress, when in reality, the progress made to date by scientists in the field is precisely zero.

What is abiogenesis, anyway?

In his talk [2:10], Professor Tour defined abiogenesis as “the prebiotic process whereby life, such as a cell, arises from non-living simple organic compounds: carbohydrates, nucleic acids, lipids and proteins (polymers of amino acids).” Tour added: “On our planet, this is what it is; in our universe, this is what it is. As far as we can tell, we’re the only ones here so far. But certainly on our planet, it’s carbohydrates, nucleic acids, lipids and proteins.

This is an important point to grasp. Defenders of abiogenesis are prone to speculate on the existence of exotic life-forms elsewhere in the cosmos, or in other universes. Even if such exotic life-forms existed, the question which concerns us is: how did cellular life, which relies on the four kinds of chemicals listed by Tour, arise? This is a non-trivial scientific question, and it demands an answer. Moreover, since any process that gave rise to life must have had a computable probability of success, it qualifies as a target, in the special sense of the word, as used by information scientists. In a nutshell: life can be defined as an improbable outcome. Some targets are highly specific (e.g. build this molecule), but the target we call “life,” even if it is narrowed down to “cellular life which is based on carbohydrates, nucleic acids, lipids and proteins,” is a very broad one, which can only be given a general description, since it makes no reference to any particular species (such as Homo sapiens or E. coli). Describing life as a “target” (in this sense) in no way assumes that the process which generated life must have been a guided one: that would be begging the question. All it means is that it must have been an improbable process (to some degree).

So the scientific question we have to address is: how improbable is the emergence of life on an Earth-like planet, over a period of (say) four billion years? Is it moderately probable, astronomically improbable, or somewhere in between?

Professor Tour debunks abiogenesis

(a) The current state of scientific ignorance

In his talk, Professor Tour was refreshingly candid about how little scientists know, not only about the origin of life, but also about the origin of the basic building blocks of life:

We have no idea how the molecules that compose living systems could have been devised such that they would work in concert to fulfill biology’s functions. We have no idea how the basic set of molecules, carbohydrates, nucleic acids, lipids and proteins, were made and how they could have coupled in proper sequences, and then transformed into the ordered assemblies until there was the construction of a complex system, and eventually to that first cell. Nobody has any idea on how this was done when using our commonly understood mechanisms of chemical science. Those who say that they understand are generally wholly uninformed regarding chemical synthesis.

From a synthetic chemical perspective, neither I nor any of my colleagues can fathom a prebiotic molecular route to construction of a complex system. We cannot even figure out the prebiotic routes to the basic building blocks of life: carbohydrates, nucleic acids, lipids and proteins. Chemists are collectively bewildered. Hence I say that no chemist understands prebiotic synthesis of the requisite building blocks, let alone assembly into a complex system.

That’s how clueless we are. I’ve asked all of my colleagues: National Academy members, Nobel Prize winners. I sit with them in offices. Nobody understands this. So if your professor says, “It’s all worked out,” [or] your teachers say, “It’s all worked out,” they don’t know what they’re talking about. It is not worked out.

(b) The difficulties involved in making structures, such as nanocars, which are far simpler than living organisms

Professor Tour then provided his audience with a highly entertaining presentation of his work in designing nano-sized cars (one of which is pictured above), constructed from individual atoms. The key points in his discussion were that a great deal of foresight was needed to complete the task, and even then, it wasn’t smooth sailing: there were a lot of setbacks. Making even minor changes in function to the nanocars often necessitated going back to square one and redesigning them from scratch: something which an unguided process is incapable of doing. Additionally, synthesizing the various products at the desired level of purity was excruciatingly difficult process. Finally, the reagents had to be mixed in a very specific sequence, in order to get the desired product. But the task of building life is far more complex than that of building nanocars, as Tour openly acknowledged:

Some may contend that [in making nanocars], I did not use Nature’s building blocks, such as carbohydrates, amino acids, nucleic acids and lipids. I concede, I took the easy route and used simple synthetic molecules, not Nature’s far more complex compounds where chirality and diastereoselectivity can be enormously problematic in synthesis. Thus here we will consider Nature’s building blocks, showing that many of the common parameters hold, yet they become far more difficult for prebiotic systems than for the synthetic chemist today.

(c) Eleven enormous obstacles confronting unguided processes, in generating even the basic building blocks of life

In his talk, Professor Tour decided to focus on the origin of just one of the four basic building blocks of life: carbohydrates. He then proceeded to list eleven enormous hurdles faced by any blind, unguided process, in generating these compounds:

Let us begin at ground zero with the construction of one basic building block of life: carbohydrates.… So we will just consider the basic building blocks, carbohydrates, prior to their polymerization which requires enzymes… DNA and RNA are like beads hanging on a string. You’ve got to have the string. You’ve got to have carbohydrates…

The 11-point details with Nature’s constructs

1. A choice of target was needed for the nanocars. How do we know what to target? Towards which structure do we optimize to have an adequately functional system for a task? Take for example the pentose sugars, one of the more common carbohydrate sizes, and that used for DNA and RNA.

Pentose sugars have three stereogenic centers, so eight possible isomers (substructures, some being the enantiomers which are mirror-image related and the others being diastereomers which involve subtle orientational differences), and all are chiral, meaning [that] they have a nonsuperimposable mirror image. But what if we do not know the target, then the complexity of the problem would certainly be compounded.

Specifically, we needed a five-carbon sugar, D-(-)-ribose in particular, selected from the set of eight possible pentoses. Further, for DNA, it has to be one hydroxyl group deficient, or deoxyribose. If it is not, then it will be suitable for RNA, but far less stable. But prebiotic systems never knew any of this; there was a blinded pathway to a host of products, somehow selecting the one desired long before any selection agent could have been biologically available. And what are the selection criteria? It is hard to know if we do not know the target. And even if the target were known, the selector would be another molecule at least as complex as the desired analyte [a chemical substance that is the subject of chemical analysis – VJT]. And what selected the selector?

2. Solubility problems were confronted in the nanocar. Same problem for abiogenesis.

3. Molecular flexibility (a less rigid chassis) was needed… This was part of the redesign needed. Prebiotic chemistry would have to do the same, redesigning structures when desired function (and what is desired function since no target was foreseen?) was not realized. Thus much of [the] work that was done to that point would likely have to be discarded, increasing the difficulty for a prebiotic system.

4. When we added a motor to the motorcars, the former chassis were not sufficient to accommodate the motors. Likewise, in prebiotic chemistry, this again sends the system back to the beginning.

5. When we desired to go from a slow motor to a fast motor, though the stator was reusable, the rotor was not. The rotor had to be redesigned, from step one, so as to become a faster unidirectional rotor. In prebiotic systems, for small changes, we cannot use a blackboard to delete atoms or to insert atoms. Often redesigns are needed which send the system back to the origin of the synthesis. This is further exacerbated by the fact that there is no specified target in abiogenesis. [As I explained above, the target in abiogenesis is a general one, rather than a predefined one – VJT.]

6. Just as our motor no longer functioned when the original wheels were present, and we did not realize it until the synthesis was complete, any prebiotic system is destined, at least some of the time, to experience such a disappointment, thereby sending the system back to the beginning. But it does not know how to stop it current course of progression, or why to stop. The prebiotic system will continue to make derivatives of nonfunctioning entities.

7. To get chemical reactions occurring in high yield is difficult. In our synthetic case, we design the reactions to minimize diastereomic mixtures that can be nearly impossible to separate. Hence, even with all of our developed separation protocols and equipment, we try our best to avoid the undesired diastereomers because the separations are too time-consuming and expensive. Plus they waste a huge amount of the starting materials generating unwanted products. And enantiomeric separations are all the more difficult. Nature has chosen a far harder route, using only one enantiomer (homochiral) in a system with multiple stereogenic centers.

8. In the synthesis of the nanocars, we had the convenience of the JIT [just-in-time] delivery of chemicals, and storage of intermediates in safe and stable conditions until needed for the next step… In the laboratory, as anywhere else, it is essential to stop a reaction before the desired product degrades… Time is your enemy, when you’re making kinetic products…. Thus after a few years, which is a brief moment in time by prebiotic terms, there would be little if any of the pentoses left, let alone the more rapid loss of the desired ribose 2,4-diphosphate… Prebiotic chemistry is extremely difficult to perform even for the world’s best synthetic chemists like Eschenmoser, so he chose a more convenient model study system.

9. Reagent addition order is critical as seen in the detailed experimental protocols. In other words, A needs to be added before B and then C, and each at its own specific temperature to effect a proper reaction and coupling yield.

10. The parameters of temperature, pressure, solvent, light or no light, pH, oxygen or no oxygen, moisture or no moisture, have to be carefully controlled to build complex molecular structures. Unless one can devise sophisticated promoters or catalysts that are stable in air and moisture and can work at common atmospheric conditions, precise control must be maintained.

11. The characterization at each step is essential, and even more so if we ever have to bring up more material for the synthesis.

Summary of the 11 criteria

Therefore, small changes in ultimate functioning require major rerouting in the synthetic approaches. All changes, when doing chemistry, are hard and cannot be done by the usual hand-waving arguments or simple erasures on a board. Laborious and intentional elements of forethought are required.

(d) Why chemists need to resort to reverse engineering, in order to resolve problems regarding life’s origin

Next, Professor Tour explained why chemists need to engage in reverse engineering, when trying to synthesize desired products:

Why do synthetic chemists use retrosynthetic approaches to build complex molecules? Because without the retrosynthetic approach, discerning one’s way to desired products is far too complex, leading to dead-ends that are overwhelmingly abundant, generating massive amounts of undesired products, and exhausting precious supplies that might have taken huge efforts to prepare. But Nature cannot perform retrosynthetic analyses, if we presuppose that the starting points progressed to a non-predefined endpoint. Again, this is utterly perplexing for the synthetic chemist.

How could this have happened in prebiotic chemistry? How do you go from a starting material to a product that’s a complex product? What we do is we work our way back slowly. But Nature doesn’t know what its product is going to be at the end! It doesn’t know! It’s just blindly going along.

(e) The ultimate problem: even if you had all the ingredients of life, they can’t assemble without enzymes

Professor Tour provided the final coup de grace in his expose of current scientific theories regarding abiogenesis. It turns out that even if you could get all the ingredients of life together, at a high level of purity, and store them over long periods, they can’t assemble without enzymes:

Let us assume that all the building blocks of life, not just their precursors, could be made in high degrees of purity, including homochirality where applicable, for all the carbohydrates, all the amino acids, all the nucleic acids and all the lipids. And let us further assume that they are comfortably stored in cool caves, away from sunlight, and away from oxygen, so as to be stable against environmental degradation. And let us further assume that they all existed in one corner of the earth, and not separated by thousands of kilometers or on different planets. And that they all existed not just in the same square kilometer, but in neighboring pools where they can conveniently and selectively mix with each other as needed.

Now what? How do they assemble? Without enzymes, the mechanisms do not exist for their assembly. It will not happen and there is no synthetic chemist that would claim differently because to do so would take enormous stretches of conjecturing beyond any that is realized in the field of chemical sciences…

I just saw a presentation by a Nobel prize winner modeling the action of enzymes, and I walked up to him afterward, and I said to him, “I’m writing an article entitled: ‘Abiogenesis: Nightmare.’ Where do these enzymes come from? Since these things are synthesized, … starting from the beginning, where did these things come from?” He says, “What did you write in your article?” I said, “I said, ‘It’s a mystery.'” He said, “That’s exactly what it is: it’s a mystery.”

(f) Even a Dream Team of chemists wouldn’t know how to assemble life, if they had all the ingredients, including enzymes

As Professor Tour pointed out, what makes the puzzle of life’s origin all the more baffling is that even if you had a “Dream Team” of brilliant chemists and gave them all the ingredients they wanted, they would still have no idea how to assemble a simple cell:

All right, now let’s assemble the Dream Team. We’ve got good professors here, so let’s assemble the Dream Team. Let’s further assume that the world’s top 100 synthetic chemists, top 100 biochemists and top 100 evolutionary biologists combined forces into a limitlessly funded Dream Team. The Dream Team has all the carbohydrates, lipids, amino acids and nucleic acids stored in freezers in their laboratories… All of them are in 100% enantiomer purity. [Let’s] even give the team all the reagents they wish, the most advanced laboratories, and the analytical facilities, and complete scientific literature, and synthetic and natural non-living coupling agents. Mobilize the Dream Team to assemble the building blocks into a living system – nothing complex, just a single cell. The members scratch their heads and walk away, frustrated…

So let’s help the Dream Team out by providing the polymerized forms: polypeptides, all the enzymes they desire, the polysaccharides, DNA and RNA in any sequence they desire, cleanly assembled. The level of sophistication in even the simplest of possible living cells is so chemically complex that we are even more clueless now than with anything discussed regarding prebiotic chemistry or macroevolution. The Dream Team will not know where to start. Moving all this off Earth does not solve the problem, because our physical laws are universal.

You see the problem for the chemists? Welcome to my world. This is what I’m confronted with, every day.

(g) A call for scientific modesty

Professor Tour concluded his talk on a somber note:

Those that think scientists understand the details of life’s origin are wholly uninformed. Nobody understands. Maybe one day we will. But that day is far from today. So to make ad hominem attacks upon those who are skeptical of the science to-date can be inhibitory to the process if science. Would it not be helpful to express to students the massive gaps in our understanding so that they, as the next generation of academic soldiers, could seek to propel the field upon a firmer, and possibly radically different scientific basis, rather than relying on increasingly ambitious extrapolations that are entirely unacceptable in the practice of chemistry? The basis upon which we as scientists are relying is so shaky that it would be best to openly state the situation for what it is: a mystery.

Unmasking a recent example of scientific triumphalism on the origin of life

In the last few days, there has been much talk about a new paper in Nature Communications (vol. 7, article number 11328) by Brian Cafferty, David M. Fialho, Jaheda Khanam, Ramanarayanan Krishnamurthy and Nicholas V. Hud, titled, Spontaneous formation and base pairing of plausible prebiotic nucleotides in water. The abstract sounds very promising:

The RNA World hypothesis presupposes that abiotic reactions originally produced nucleotides, the monomers of RNA and universal constituents of metabolism. However, compatible prebiotic reactions for the synthesis of complementary (that is, base pairing) nucleotides and mechanisms for their mutual selection within a complex chemical environment have not been reported. Here we show that two plausible prebiotic heterocycles, melamine and barbituric acid, form glycosidic linkages with ribose and ribose-5-phosphate in water to produce nucleosides and nucleotides in good yields. Even without purification, these nucleotides base pair in aqueous solution to create linear supramolecular assemblies containing thousands of ordered nucleotides. Nucleotide anomerization and supramolecular assemblies favour the biologically relevant beta-anomer form of these ribonucleotides, revealing abiotic mechanisms by which nucleotide structure and configuration could have been originally favoured. These findings indicate that nucleotide formation and selection may have been robust processes on the prebiotic Earth, if other nucleobases preceded those of extant life.

However, when one looks more carefully at the paper itself, it becomes apparent that the authors are glossing over the challenges that their proposed synthesis would have faced in the real world:

The ability of C-BMP and MMP to form supramolecular assemblies might have also facilitated the emergence of early RNA-like polymers by selecting nucleotides with sugars (or earlier trifunctional linkers) that were structurally compatible with the assemblies and their subsequent coupling into covalent polymers. In the present study, we have, for practical reasons, used D-ribose and D-R5P for our nucleoside and nucleotide reactions with melamine and BA, but L-ribose or L-R5P would exhibit equivalent reactivity with these two heterocycles. Nevertheless, it has been often postulated that a racemic mixture of nucleotides would have inhibited the prebiotic synthesis of RNA polymers(41), and so the question of how the present system might address this challenge deserves some discussion. Although we have not shown chiral nucleotide selection, in the current study we have demonstrated that the beta-anomer of MMP is enriched in supramolecular assemblies over the alpha-anomer of MMP, and this selection leads to a detectable increase in the ratio of the beta-anomer over the alpha-anomer of MMP in the entire solution (presumably due to anomerization and selective stabilization by the assembly). As a recent example of the ability of supramolecular polymers to promote local chiral resolution, Aida and co-workers demonstrated that racemic solutions of chiral macrocycles self-sort into homochiral supramolecular polymers(42). It is therefore possible that supramolecular assemblies, formed by nucleotides with different sugars, including different anomers and enantiomers, could have been selectively enriched in individual supramolecular assemblies before polymerization. Current investigations of this possibility are actively being pursued in our laboratory.

The paper by Aida et al. which the authors cite is titled, “Homochiral supramolecular polymerization of bowl‐shaped chiral macrocycles in solution” (Chem. Sci. 2014, 5, 136‐140). However, it turns out that the abstract is very modest, and does not support the sweeping conclusions drawn by Cafferty et al. in their article for Nature Communications:

Chiral monomers 1 and 2, carrying C4‐ and C3‐symmetric bowl‐shaped peptide macrocycle  cores, respectively, undergo supramolecular polymerization in solution via van der Waals  and hydrogen bonding interactions. Size‐exclusion chromatographic studies, using UV and CD detectors, on the supramolecular copolymerization of their enantiomers demonstrated that these monomers are the first chiral macrocycles that polymerize enantioselectively with a strong preference for chiral self‐sorting.

In other words, Aida et al. were talking about just two monomers, which are the first – and to date, the only – chiral macrocycles that are known to polymerize with a strong preference for chiral self‐sorting. (Note: a macrocycle is defined by IUPAC as “a cyclic macromolecule or a macromolecular cyclic portion of a molecule.”) To generalize from this solitary instance to the grandiose claim that “supramolecular assemblies, formed by nucleotides with different sugars, including different anomers and enantiomers, could have been selectively enriched in individual supramolecular assemblies before polymerization,” is going far beyond the available evidence.

How Professor Tour’s talk has created a new scientific research agenda for the Intelligent Design movement

One of the criticisms most frequently hurled at the Intelligent Design movement is that it solves the problem of origins by positing a science-stopper: “God did it,” or “A Designer did it.” After listening to Professor Tour’s talk, I had a kind of epiphany. I suddenly realized that Tour had created a perfect research agenda for the Intelligent Design movement: that of reverse-engineering life itself. If life was intelligently designed, then there is no reason in principle why scientists cannot retrace the steps whereby the first living cell was assembled. Indeed, Professor Tour himself, in response to a question from a member of the audience, expressed optimism that scientists would one day solve the question of life’s origin.

But what if scientists’ attempt to reverse-engineer life turns up empty-handed?

What if the attempt to reverse-engineer life fails?

In his talk, Professor Tour highlighted the immense difficulty of intelligently designing a living cell, even if we assembled a “Dream Team” of chemists, and gave them all the ingredients they could possibly ask for. Let’s imagine that after 50 years of searching for a plausible pathway that a Designer might have used to get from the chemical ingredients of life to a functional living cell, Intelligent Design scientists come up empty-handed. “We’ve followed up every promising avenue we could think of,” they say. “We’ve even used super-computers, with their advanced ‘look-ahead’ capabilities, to help us in our search. Nothing has worked, and there appears to be nothing that’s even remotely promising on the horizon, either.” What should we then conclude?

Here, I believe, is where it gets really interesting. Failures in science can tell us just as much as successes. If the attempt to find a guided pathway leading to the first living cell turns up empty-handed after a diligent search of all promising options, then the only remaining conclusion for us to draw is that life wasn’t assembled. That, however, does not mean that life wasn’t designed. Rather, what it means is that the first living cell was created holus-bolus, in its entirety.

A Transcendent Designer?

What kind of agent could create a living cell, in its entirety, without any intermediate steps? Certainly not a natural agent, that’s for sure. That only leaves an Agent Who stands outside the cosmos and Who created the entities we find within it: in other words, a supernatural Being.

What I’m suggesting here is that the scientific attempt to reverse-engineer life is a winner as an Intelligent Design project, no matter which way it pans out. If it succeeds, then Intelligent Design scientists will gain some well-earned kudos, as well as “street cred,” in the scientific community at large: they will have accomplished a feat that puts Watson and Crick’s discovery of the structure of DNA in the shade.

But if it fails, then the Intelligent Design movement will have a ready response to a theological charge which is often leveled against the Intelligent Design movement: that the Designer it points to is not the God of classical theism, but a mere architect. The discovery that life was (in all likelihood) not assembled, step by step, but created in its entirety, would strongly indicate that the Designer of life is a Transcendent Being.

In other words, what we have is a win-win situation for the Intelligent Design movement. All that remains is to get moving with the scientific project of trying to reverse-engineer a simple living cell, as soon as possible.

What do readers think?

Comments
To follow it to its logical end, ID will be validated when SETI succeeds. (facepalm) LoL!Mung
May 8, 2016
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What is the import of limited resources? It's all part of the Zachriel dance. If A leaves more offspring than B then you have "evolution," limited resources or not.Mung
May 8, 2016
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Zachriel: It [Darwinian evolution] requires replication with limited resources.
What is the import of limited resources? How do limited resources help evolution?Origenes
May 8, 2016
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gpuccio: I think you are forgetting that RV and NS must be thrown in. Am I wrong? Yes, the replication requires some source of variation. And the competition for resources has to be related somehow to the structure of the replicator. gpuccio: Have those processes been observed for self-replicating molecules, or are they simply posited? Molecules can self-replicate and undergo darwinian evolution in highly contrived environments. We provided citations above.Zachriel
May 8, 2016
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Upright Biped: I did not say self-replicating molecules are impossible. What you said was “Darwinian evolution requires the very informational medium and translation apparatus it is attempting to explain.” Darwinian evolution doesn't not require translation. It requires replication with limited resources. Upright Biped: I said that template replication is an entirely different physical process than translation That's nice, but DNA replication is template replication. Upright Biped: Its not a strange use, Zach, it’s what the word means. We provided a definition. Try to reword your claim without the term "universal evidence". Upright Biped: NO PERSON has “independently assessed” that the origin of biological information is evolution. Of course they have — starting with Darwin. Upright Biped: A provisional conclusion based on universal evidence is not called “circular reasoning” There's no way to evaluate your claim when you keep using the term "universal evidence". Do you have a reference for this use of terminology? https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=%22universal+evidence%22 Upright Biped: If SETI receives a narrow band-radio signal they will conclude “an act of intelligence” The scientific community will be very skeptical of any such claim. Additional evidence will be sought before it is considered a firm conclusion; the who, what, when, where, why, and how. For instance, if the signal is associated with a planetary system, that will lend strength to the hypothesis, because that helps answer the "who". If the signal comes from a pulsar, other hypotheses may be forthcoming.Zachriel
May 8, 2016
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Zachriel: "Self-replication based on a competition for resources is thought to be sufficient for darwinian evolution." I think you are forgetting that RV and NS must be thrown in. Am I wrong? IOWs, there must be not only self-replication and competition, but also variation which generates some novelty which can give reproductive advantage and be positively selected. That's much more than simple self-replication, either with competition or not. Now, a simple question. Have those processes been observed for self-replicating molecules, or are they simply posited? Or just hoped for?gpuccio
May 8, 2016
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That was Upright BiPed, whom we had quoted in the comment to which you replied.
I did not say self-replicating molecules are impossible. I said that template replication is an entirely different physical process than translation, and is incapable of achieving the same effects. Which is a fact.Upright BiPed
May 8, 2016
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That’s a very strange use of the term “universal”. And yes, many individual scientists have independently assessed the origin of biological information as evolution in origin.
Its not a strange use, Zach, it's what the word means. Also, go back and read the GPs original statement in 154. NO PERSON has "independently assessed" that the origin of biological information is evolution. You are now just throwing stuff up that you know to be absolutely false.
DNA replicates by template. In any case, RNA template production is posited to have preceded DNA.
This comment means absolutely nothing to the issue on the table. DNA replication is not a counter-example to translation. And the fact that something is "posited" doesn't change the entirely dissimilar physics of the two processes.
It’s circular reasoning because you ignore by fiat the very hypothesis that you are attempting to refute.
A provisional conclusion based on universal evidence is not called "circular reasoning" Zach. It's the logical discipline of an activity called "science". Further, its is not a matter of ignoring a hypothesis. The proposed counter-example is physically incapable of producing the effects in question.
The only known source.
Yes. Intelligence is the only known source of a narrow-band radio signal. That fact forms the inferential basis of the SETI project, and is accepted throughout the scientific community.
Unlike ID, SETI has never claimed to have discovered extraterrestrial intelligence.
The statement is intellectually vacuous. Two projects use the same conceptual methodology to search for signs of intelligent action in different domains. One has a positive result while the other continues. You object to the positive result because the other has not succeeded. Your reasoning is empty. To follow it to its logical end, ID will be validated when SETI succeeds. (facepalm)
And that’s exactly why ID is not science. Number three should be “perhaps this radio signal is the product of intelligence”. Let’s investigate it further and if we can determine the who, what, when, where, why, and how of the signal’s origin.
If SETI receives a narrow band-radio signal they will conclude "an act of intelligence", and immediately announce their findings to the public. They will also look for additional validation. They will seek that validation in the same semiotic phenomenon that has already been found in the cell. Given that this is deemed acceptable methodology, conduct, and reasoning, the same chain of events should be availed to ID based on the physical evidence.Upright BiPed
May 8, 2016
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Zachriel: Self-replicating molecules and molecular networks are capable of darwinian evolution. See Robertson & Joyce, Highly Efficient Self-Replicating RNA Enzymes, Chemistry & Biology 2014. Or for something antique, see Spiegelman et al., The Synthesis of a Self-propagating and Infectious Nucleic Acid with a Purified Enzyme, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 1965. There is also evidence of ribozymes that can partially replicate their own template. gpuccio: Excuse me, I was not saying that it was impossible. That was Upright BiPed, whom we had quoted in the comment to which you replied. gpuccio: If I understand well, darwinian evolution is much more than simple self-replication, be it posited or real. Self-replication based on a competition for resources is thought to be sufficient for darwinian evolution. gpuccio: I can happily accept that as the reasonable leading paradigm for biological research. Good luck with that. Mung: Does not. See Crick & Watson, A structure for deoxyribose nucleic acids, Nature 1953: "It has not escaped our notice that the specific pairing we have postulated immediately suggests a possible copying mechanism for the genetic material."Zachriel
May 8, 2016
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If the critics really had anything they would not need to resort to lies and distortions.Mung
May 8, 2016
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MatSpirit: Nature is fine tuning the synthesis of complex chemicals and purifying them to fractions of a percent in every cell in Tour’s body. It’s how life works and its all natural. Yes, that's how life works. And it works with enzymes, which were not available in a pre-biotic world. And Tour is talking about a pre-biotic world and he specifically mentions the absence of enzymes. So why do you insist on continuing to misrepresent Tour?Mung
May 8, 2016
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Zachriel: DNA replicates by template. Does not. Zachriel: In any case, RNA template production is posited to have preceded DNA. So instead of one miracle we have two miracles. Such faith you have, Zachriel.Mung
May 8, 2016
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A posited designer could design a posited self-replicating molecule.Mung
May 8, 2016
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Zachriel: Let me paraphrase you: "Number three should be “perhaps this functional molecules we observe in all biological beings are the product of intelligence”. Let’s investigate it further and if we can determine the who, what, when, where, why, and how of the signal’s origin." I can happily accept that as the reasonable leading paradigm for biological research. :)gpuccio
May 8, 2016
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Zachriel: You disappoint me! Your statement was: "Self-replicating molecules and molecular networks are capable of darwinian evolution." Emphasis mine. When pressed by me, you say: "Posited self-replicating molecules. Self-replicating molecules in contrived conditions have been observed. The claim was a logical one, so it is only necessary to show a logical counterexample. You can’t simply wave your hands and say that self-replicating molecules are *impossible*, even if you don’t think they are a likely precursor to extant life." Excuse me, I was not saying that it was impossible. You had stated that self-replicating molecules are capable of darwinian evolution. I asked for examples. So, we learn that: 1) You are referring to posited self replicating molecules 2) You have no examples, or empirical arguments, about their being capable of darwinian evolution. If I understand well, darwinian evolution is much more than simple self-replication, be it posited or real. So, maybe you could have said, more reasonably: Self-replicating molecules can reasonably exist, and if they exist they could in principle be capable of darwinian evolution. That would have been better, wouldn't it?gpuccio
May 8, 2016
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Upright BiPed: The evidence is universal because no single person has ever independently assessed that the origin of biological information is evolution. That's a very strange use of the term "universal". And yes, many individual scientists have independently assessed the origin of biological information as evolution in origin. universal, including or covering all or a whole collectively or distributively without limit or exception; especially : available equitably to all Upright BiPed: Template replication is not a counter-example to translation. DNA replicates by template. In any case, RNA template production is posited to have preceded DNA. Upright BiPed: It is a provisional conclusion, not an assumption It's circular reasoning because you ignore by fiat the very hypothesis that you are attempting to refute. Upright BiPed: 1) Narrow-band radio signals are only produced by intelligence. The only known source. Upright BiPed: 2) This interstellar radio signal has a narrow band. Unlike ID, SETI has never claimed to have discovered extraterrestrial intelligence. Upright BiPed: 3) Therefore this radio signal is the product of intelligence. And that's exactly why ID is not science. Number three should be "perhaps this radio signal is the product of intelligence". Let's investigate it further and if we can determine the who, what, when, where, why, and how of the signal's origin. gpuccio: What is the “plausible counterexample”? Posited self-replicating molecules. Self-replicating molecules in contrived conditions have been observed. The claim was a logical one, so it is only necessary to show a logical counterexample. You can't simply wave your hands and say that self-replicating molecules are *impossible*, even if you don't think they are a likely precursor to extant life.Zachriel
May 8, 2016
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MatSpirit at #190: That is an old objection, may times answered. Origenes has already answered at #193. However, I will repeat the concept. Obviously, our examples of designed objects are human artifacts. Why? Because they are the only observable objects that exhibit dFSCI in huge amounts. Except for biological objects. So, should we infer that biological objects are designed by humans? Not at all. As Origenes correctly states: "Which ability of the human being is specifically involved with design?" Let's start with my definition of design, which you can find here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/defining-design/ "Design is a process where a conscious agent subjectively represents in his own consciousness some form and then purposefully outputs that form, more or less efficiently, to some material object. We call the process “design”. We call the conscious agent who subjectively represents the initial form “designer”. We call the material object, after the process has taken place, “designed object”." So, as you can see, the idea of design is based on the concept that some form starts as a conscious representation, and is then purposefully outputted to some material object. That also explains why designed objects can exhibit dFSCI: the cognitive faculty of understanding, and the faculty of desiring a purpose, both of them properties of consciousness, can easily overcome the probabilistic barriers inherent in unguided search. Therefore, what is needed for design to happen, and for dFSCI to exist, is some conscious, intelligent, purposeful being. Now, the simple question is: are human the only conscious, intelligent and purposeful beings which exist in reality? That is a big question. Now, you may believe so, but we are not obliged to believe as you believe. 1) It is perfectly credible that other physical beings in the universe may be conscious, intelligent and purposeful. I think most people believe it. 2) It is also perfectly possible that non physical beings exist which are conscious, intelligent and purposeful. I would say that probably most people believe that too, even today. I certainly believe it. So, as you can see, your "argument" about humans as the only possible source of design is strictly connected to your personal worldview, and there is no need to consider it sound, least of all to share it.gpuccio
May 8, 2016
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EugeneS: "Zachriel You are a champion of this blog. You write nearly on everything and yet your ability to write so much without any actual concrete meaning cannot be outperformed." Yes, he is very clever. I must confess that I admire him for that. But, however clever, he cannot perform magic. Unfortunately, he is on the wrong side of truth.gpuccio
May 8, 2016
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Zachriel: Zachriel: "Self-replicating molecules and molecular networks are capable of darwinian evolution.” gpuccio: "And the examples are? And that darwinian evolution has generated how much functional information? Details, please." Zachriel: "The claim was that “Darwinian evolution requires the very informational medium and translation apparatus it is attempting to explain.” As it is an appeal to necessity, pointing out a plausible counterexample is sufficient to contradict the claim." I don't understand. What is the "plausible counterexample"? I asked for it, but I can see no answer in what you say.gpuccio
May 8, 2016
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MatSpirit: I know some people still believe life is somehow magic, that there’s something non-material and supernatural about life, but that position is no longer tenable. We understand way to much about life. We’re been at the stage where were we can actually engineer life for decades.
It is as if you haven’t read or understood the OP.
Even a Dream Team of chemists wouldn’t know how to assemble life, if they had all the ingredients, including enzymes. “The Dream Team will not know where to start.”
MatSpirit: We know the general outline (DNA copied to mRNA, mRNA fed into ribosomes, ribosomes exposing three mRNA base pairs at a time to tRNA, tRNA handing the correct amino acid to the ribosome, ribosome joining the amino acid to the growing protein) and we also know a lot of the important details.
The linear "central dogma" of the 1960s (DNA makes RNA makes protein makes us) is long gone; it has become clear that multiple players — DNA, RNA, proteins, splicers, epigenetic factors, post-transcriptional modifiers — interact in complex networks we can barely fathom. For one thing, there is no conceivable bottom-up explanation for the coordination of the numerous processes into a dynamic coherent homeostatic whole. From whence cometh the coordination when we e.g. recover from surgery?
Surgery is war. It is impossible to envisage the sheer complexity of what happens within a surgical wound. It is a microscopical scene of devastation. Muscle cells have been crudely crushed, nerves ripped asunder; the scalpel blade has slashed and separated close communities of tissues, rupturing long-established networks of blood vessels. After the operation, broken and cut tissues are crushed together by the surgeon’s crude clamps. There is no circulation of blood or lymph across the suture. Yet within seconds of the assault, the single cells are stirred into action. They use unimaginable senses to detect what has happened and start to respond. Stem cells specialize to become the spiky-looking cells of the stratum spinosum; the shattered capillaries are meticulously repaired, new cells form layers of smooth muscle in the blood-vessel walls and neat endothelium; nerve fibres extend towards the site of the suture to restore the tactile senses . . . These phenomena require individual cells to work out what they need to do. And the ingenious restoration of the blood-vessel network reveals that there is an over-arching sense of the structure of the whole area in which this remarkable repair takes place. So too does the restoration of the skin. Cells that carry out the repair are subtly coordinated so that the skin surface, the contour of which they cannot surely detect, is restored in a form that is close to perfect. (Brian Ford 2009)
MatSpirit: Everybody’s heard about how we’re editing bits and pieces of DNA, and Craig Venter has reached the point where he can remove ALL of a cells DNA and substitute a new genome. He writes the DNA sequence into a text file and uploads it to a literal DNA factory. The factory ships the DNA he ordered to him in little vials and also as plasmids embedded in living bacteria.
I’m not sure that you have grasped the true mystery behind Venter’s Syn 3.0. Have you asked yourself the question: “Is it not utterly mysterious that an existing epigenome can cope with genomes modified by Ventor?” Gpuccio’s answer to this question: “Yes. it is. I am amazed each time I think of it.” Think about it. Venter completely reshuffled the genes. There can be no evolutionary explanation for the compatibility whatsoever. Also, what does this tell us about the central dogma?
MatSpirit: We know enough now so we can state with confidence that life is 100% material. Magic is not only unnecessary for life, there’s no need for it.
Looking at life is somewhat akin to watching a pianola without a pneumatic mechanism to explain it actions.Origenes
May 8, 2016
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We know where every atom in every variety of tRNA goes and how they implement the genetic code. We know exactly how they translate three codon groups in the mRNA into the amino acid it specifies.
Matt, the structure of tRNA does not establish and does not specify the genetic code.Upright BiPed
May 8, 2016
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EugeneS @ 119: "What he [Tour] says is that nature cannot fine-tune or control the synthesis, it cannot purify components to fractions of percent, which is critical to produce complex nano-machinery." Now think about that for a moment. Nature is fine tuning the synthesis of complex chemicals and purifying them to fractions of a percent in every cell in Tour's body. It's how life works and its all natural. This is not speculation, it's observed fact. We have understand how all the main functions of a cell work since the 20th century and it's all chemistry and information processing. "Natural forces are insufficient to explain life, because life is not reducible to chemistry." I know some people still believe life is somehow magic, that there's something non-material and supernatural about life, but that position is no longer tenable. We understand way to much about life. We're been at the stage where were we can actually engineer life for decades. For instance,we know how to make proteins. We know the general outline (DNA copied to mRNA, mRNA fed into ribosomes, ribosomes exposing three mRNA base pairs at a time to tRNA, tRNA handing the correct amino acid to the ribosome, ribosome joining the amino acid to the growing protein) and we also know a lot of the important details. We know exactly how a ribosome works. We know where every atom in the two pieces of RNA and fifty proteins that make it go. We know how molecules of ATP power the ratchet action of the two RNA pieces that pulls the ribosome along the mRNA, joining amino acids to the growing protein in accordance with the genetic code. We know where every atom in every variety of tRNA goes and how they implement the genetic code. We know exactly how they translate three codon groups in the mRNA into the the amino acid it specifies. Everybody's heard about how we're editing bits and pieces of DNA, and Craig Venter has reached the point where he can remove ALL of a cells DNA and substitute a new genome. He writes the DNA sequence into a text file and uploads it to a literal DNA factory. The factory ships the DNA he ordered to him in little vials and also as plasmids embedded in living bacteria. Tour and other chemists have to sweat bullets to manufacture a molecule from the top down. You read about all the trouble and steps he has to go through to make a tiny change in one of his cars. Nature changes a few base pairs in some DNA and runs it through the normal everyday protein manufacturing machinery that comes with every modern cell and a protein gets a new amino acid. If it doesn't work, they throw the cell away and try it again. Notice too that nature doesn't design four wheeled vehicles like Tour does. Most of nature's work is done with proteins, long chains of amino acids that fold into three dimensional shapes. You don't find four wheeled molecules in nature. Unlike Tour, Nature can't make them. It has no foresight and can't plan ahead. When it wants to move materials, it makes a creeper that moves along a trail by contracting and expanding a section of the protein so it inches along a track. We know how to turn genes on and off, we understand the various feedback loops that keep salinity and other levels constant, we know how cell walls work, how chlorophyll uses sunlight to turn carbon dioxide to sugar - we're not at the point where we can build a cell from scratch yet, but we're getting there. We know enough now so we can state with confidence that life is 100% material. Magic is not only unnecessary for life, there's no need for it. It would get in the way. I'll write more on this when (and if) I get caught up with the thread if you wish.MatSpirit
May 8, 2016
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VJT to MatSpirit: I think we can safely dismiss your claim that the first organism had only a few hundred atoms as an absurd fantasy.Mung
May 7, 2016
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MatSpirit, You write:
The problem is that Tour’s thesis is that [he thinks] the first living thing was a highly complex cell like the modern cell he uses as an illustration. He then goes on to list the many extremely difficult / unknown steps required to synthesis that modern, complex cell. As far as I (and the unseen chemist) knows, he’s right. It would be extremely difficult to build a complex modern type cell from scratch. THE PROBLEM IS THAT NOBODY IN THE WORLD EXCEPT CREATIONISTS AND ID ENTHUSIASTS BELIEVES THAT THE FIRST LIVING THING WAS COMPLEX! Everybody I’ve ever heard of that is actually associated with OOL research thinks the first living thing was an extremely simple entity of a few hundred atoms or less, probably enveloped in a simple lipid membrane, and that its only life-like ability was to reproduce itself from available materials. Tour’s whole speech is based on the strawman belief that the first living thing was enormously complex. It wasn't, so all his arguments about how hard that would be are in vain. Tour says he’s personally discussed the origin of life with various experts. Given his delusions, who knows what he actually talked about and I’m not surprised that they expressed befuddlement. One thing I’m sure of, he didn't discus it with anybody in the OOL field or they would have knocked down his straw man and set him straight on a few of the basics of OOL research. (Bolding & square brackets mine - VJT.)
You claim that the first living thing contained only a few hundred atoms. That's preposterous. Even a simple nucleotide such as deoxyadenosine monophosphate (which was synthesized in the lab back in 2009 under highly artificial laboratory conditions by Matthew Powner, Beatrice Gerland and John Sutherland) typically has a few dozen atoms. You're saying that the first living thing was just 10 times bigger than a molecule of deoxyadenosine monophosphate? Fine. Let's see you make a living thing like that. It should be easy to make, if it's that small. The reason why Tour claims the first living thing was a cell is quite simple: there are no living things anywhere on Earth which are not cells. (Viruses don't count, as they're inert on their own, and can only reproduce inside a cell.) The smallest known parasitic bacterium, M. genitalium, has a molecular weight of 360,110 kilodaltons (kDa), or 360,110,000 daltons, while the smallest known free-living bacterium, Pelagibacter ubique, is more than twice as massive. (One dalton can roughly be defined as the mass of a typical hydrogen atom.) If we assume that a typical atom in a bacterium has the same mass as a carbon-12 atom, then we can deduce that the smallest parasitic bacterium has about 30,000,000 atoms, while the smallest known free-living bacterium contains 60,000,000 atoms. The number of atoms in an E. coli bacterium is around 7,000,000,000. I think we can safely dismiss your claim that the first organism had only a few hundred atoms as an absurd fantasy. By the way, MatSpirit, what are your qualifications in chemistry, exactly? Are you a scientist? I might point out in passing that Professor Tour has talked to no less an authority than Francis Collins on the origin of life. He knows Nobel Prize winners who have worked in the field. You know none. Professor James Tour was named "Scientist of the Year" by R&D Magazine in 2013. He also won the ACS Nano Lectureship Award from the American Chemical Society in 2012. Professor Tour was ranked one of the top ten chemists in the world over the past decade by Thomson Reuters in 2009, and he is a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. I think you owe him some respect.vjtorley
May 7, 2016
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MatSpirit: I think I’m going to go back to ignoring you. Your defense is that you made only one false statement but you made it two times therefore it was only one lie? Better yet, cease making false statements.Mung
May 7, 2016
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Thus it is not a plausible counterexample, it is a category error. Bingo!Mung
May 7, 2016
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MatSpirit: Mung, what two lies did I tell about Dr. Tour? See my posts @ 110 and 114.Mung
May 7, 2016
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MatSpirit: No, the correct form should be: 1. The only objects whose origin is known which have property X are designed by a human being. 2. This object has property X. 3. Therefore this object is designed by a human being.
I think we can and must do better and provide a clear definition. "Designed by a human being" is such a vague generic statement. Which ability of the human being is specifically involved with design? Not the ability to grow nose hair I'm sure. The correct answer is: intelligence. Now, since it would be a presumptuous to hold that only human beings can be equipped for intelligence, the correct form should be: 1. The only objects whose origin is known which have property X are designed by intelligence. 2. This object has property X. 3. Therefore this object is designed by intelligence.Origenes
May 7, 2016
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Matt, the remainder of the scientific community is not following your flawed logic:
No, the correct form should be: 1. The only objects whose origin is known which have property X are designed by a human being. 2. This object has property X. 3. Therefore this object is designed by a human being.
SETI searches for unknown intelligence by the following general logic: 1) Narrow-band radio signals are only produced by intelligence. 2) This interstellar radio signal has a narrow band. 3) Therefore this radio signal is the product of intelligence. This methodology is explicitly endorsed by NASA, the National Academy of Sciences, the National Science Foundation, the British Royal Society, and university science departments around the world. Yet you say they are all wrong. In actuality, serious thinkers came to the conclusion several years ago that all of these artificial attempts to disallow ID inferences from science kept having the unintended consequence of cutting off their own science projects and funding. You might want to keep that in mind when presenting flawed logic.Upright BiPed
May 7, 2016
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Mung, what two lies did I tell about Dr. Tour? john_a_designer @ 102: Everybody agrees that we don't know how life started. Tour claims, citing absolutely no evidence, that the first living thing was as complex as a modern cell. He realizes such cells are much too complex to have formed naturally, and wants his audience to conclude that Jesus did it. People outside of creationism agree that a modern cell is too complex to form naturally and see no reason to imagine Jesus mucking around in the hot rocks four billion years ago. They theorize that something much much simpler formed naturally and then evolved into a complex cell. They don't claim to have explained how life formed, they just like to restrict themselves to hypothesis that are physically possible. Mung @ 109: "Would anybody like to speculate on the outcome of a parent’s lawsuit? Sure. It would get laughed out of court." I haven't heard such confidence since about a day before the Dover trial begin. I think it's going to be a little harder than you think to get a court to agree that teaching falsehoods to school children to make it look like supernatural assistance was needed to create life is gonna fly. Mung again: "MatSpirit: The problem is that Tour’s thesis is that the first living thing was a highly complex cell like the modern cell he uses as an illustration. This is patently false." Watch the video again. Mung yet again: "MatSpirit: Tour claims: (A) The first living thing was as complex as the modern cell he uses as an illustration. This is false. Please stop making false statements." Ah, this must be my second "lie". Well, actually my first one again. ID truth, ID math. I think I'm going to go back to ignoring you.MatSpirit
May 7, 2016
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