Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Origin of life researcher on why evolution theory needs revision

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Readers will recall that I (O’Leary for News) have been recommending Suzan Mazur’s recent book, The Origin of Life Circus, an indepth look at what is and isn’t working in origin of life research.

Suzan MazurMuch recommended is her interview with Paul Davies’ collaborator at Arizona State University, physicist Sara Walker, who emphasizes the need to address the information aspect of life. Walker politely dismisses claim that maybe life and non-life aren’t much different, and says,

Yes, I like to think about life in terms of information flows and how information is being processed. And because information is so widely distributed in biological systems, I think there’s merit to the idea of autocatalytic sets. Living systems are systems, and we really need to have a systems approach to the origin of life. You can’t just start with a single molecule. That’s why I like the metabolism-first viewpoint because it really is about how systems act and evolve collectively.

Walker has made this type of point before, and it is a welcome change from the usual: Maybe if we throw enough models at the origin of life… some of them will stick?

She also takes the risk of siding with those (Carl Woese included) who are negative about the Darwinian interpretation of evolution. Woese, perhaps the greatest 20th century biologist, the one who first identified the Archaea, regretted not overthrowing Darwin.

Suzan Mazur: How do you define evolution? You say “the concept of evolution itself may be in need of revision” and cite Carl Woese and Nigel Goldenfeld. What do you mean by evolution being in need of revision?

Sara Walker: I was thinking about Woese’s idea about early life being dominated by horizontal gene transfer, and that life was much more of a collective evolutionary process. It’s much harder, however, to get your head around the concept of a loose collection, a network evolving. Conceptually, the RNA world is much easier because we can keep imposing the idea of the Darwinian paradigm of an RNA replicator with vertical descent.

In short, RNA world was popular because it was Darwinian, not because it was well-founded.

Anyone familiar with pop science writing will recognize the phenomenon: Any given concept is invested with a certain sacred energy—for writers and readers— if Darwin either thought about it or could have imagined it or it fits in with something he thought.

This kind of thing would normally be thought of as religion but apparently the PR firm decided it was better marketed as science. Anyway…

Suzan Mazur: But you do think the concept of evolution is in need of revision.

Sara Walker: Yes. I think there are a lot of phenomena in evolution we haven’t investigated in as much depth as the standard genetic evolution paradigm.

It gets better. If you do not buy the book, you are missing the best parts.

Incidentally, science writer John Horgan’s recent defense of our right to disagree with experts nonetheless ruled out any serious criticism of the sort that Woese and Walker offer:

… he lists “evolution by natural selection” as one of the things that scientists have gotten “right, once and for all.”

This illustrates the seriousness of the problem. Horgan is reasonably skeptical—as all journalists should be—of establishment claims.

Except when it comes to Darwin.Then suddenly, the blinkers go on. The lights go out.

One must wish Walker well in her efforts to deal with this perennial thought blocker.

See also: Suzan Mazur interviews senior NASA origin of life scientist – It was stormy, and we aren’t talking weather here

and

RNA world would work if only life were simpler

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
Of course you don't know what I'm talking about. That's ok. Obviously you don't understand the fact that it doesn't matter whether it's singe cells organism or multicell. that we're talking about. That's ok. And yes, the gene is deleted and the result is studied I the next generation. The fact that I have to explain this to you means that this conversation is over.Curly Howard
March 27, 2015
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I don't know what your case is but I was talking about single-celled organisms. Also with mice they would have to follow the generations to see what happens. If the gene isn't required then there wouldn't be any reason to bring it back.Joe
March 27, 2015
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I named an organism that molecular biology has consistently relied on gene knockouts in. The fact that it's a eukaryotes, not to mention a mammal, only helps my case. Even in these complex organisms, the knockout of a single gene has been able to drive analysis of cellular function.Curly Howard
March 27, 2015
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So mice are single-celled organisms? Or is Curly an imbecile? My second post is the argument. As I said you have no idea when it comes to ideas.Joe
March 27, 2015
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It's not my opinion Joe, it's a fact. Such as every mutant null mice line ever created, just to name a fraction of them. And as to your second post, that's not even the argument. Goodbye Joe!Curly Howard
March 27, 2015
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So a cell can't figure out how to re-evolve a missing part but it can figure out how to evolve totally new innovations it never had? Is this part of the theory of evolution that no one can reference?Joe
March 27, 2015
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If you completely knockout a gene then that’s it.
That's your opinion. The cell may find some way to compensate or repair it. It may take several generations.
A huge amount of molecular biology has relied on this fact.
Such as?
As I said, please stop trying to talk about biology
I will when evos, like you, stop spewing their nonsensical BS. Until then I will keep exposing you as teh bluffing poseurs that you are.Joe
March 27, 2015
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No, Joe. It is not the same thing. Not even close. If you completely knockout a gene then that's it. The cell cannot repair it. A huge amount of molecular biology has relied on this fact. As I said, please stop trying to talk about biology (even though it is providing a lot of laughs).Curly Howard
March 27, 2015
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Metazoans are able to remake body parts because cells at the wound site dedifferentiate and then form the necessary tissue for the limb.
Right. That is at the macro-level. Inside the cell, when the cell is the organism, it is the same thing albeit on a smaller scale. At the wound site, ie the damaged or removed DNA sequence, there would be some repair mechanism akin to error correction that would right the ship. As I said, you wouldn't know an idea from Uranus.Joe
March 27, 2015
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Joe, you should really stop trying to talk about biology. Metazoans are able to remake body parts because cells at the wound site dedifferentiate and then form the necessary tissue for the limb. We are talking about single cells remaking cellular function. They are two very different things. Please stop saying ridiculously stupid things, I almost start to feel bad.Curly Howard
March 27, 2015
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How do you propose a cell would remake a function
The same way metazoans remake some body parts.
Joe, you don’t have ANY ideas.
How would you know? You wouldn't know an idea from Uranus.Joe
March 27, 2015
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How do you propose a cell would remake a function, BA? I think you have no idea what you are talking about when you say there's a tremendous amount of redundancy in the cell. Fitness test? BA, did you even watch the BS video you linked to? The fitness test only looked at how the mutant species compared to wild type. There is nothing in that video about testing an increase in fitness from a random function. The stuff that comes out of the discovery institute is good for toilet paper, that's about it. I tell you what's wrong with the gauger paper and you respond with even more unfounded claims from the same paper. Nice. Joe, you don't have ANY ideas.Curly Howard
March 27, 2015
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An ancestral polypeptide that was intelligently designed and then used as a template to design others based on the original sequence and the required functions.Joe
March 27, 2015
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insipid troll:
The cell isn’t capable of “remembering” that function and directly remaking it.
Sure it is.
Does your designer like to copy/paste as much as you, or is it more likely that these two proteins evolved from a common ancestor?
An ancestral polypeptide that was intelligently designed and then used as a template to design others based on the original sequence. BTW, I don't have any religious ideas. ID doesn't have anything to do with religion, unless science is a religion. But then again you don't seem to know anything about science nor religion.Joe
March 27, 2015
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insipid troll:
And do these same “intelligent agencies” modify the proteins that cause a vast array of diseases in us as well, Joey?
Most likely by built-in responses or some sort of genetic engineering before the design was implemented.
And how can we contact these “intelligent agencies” to thank them for causing all these wonderful diseases?
Only a scientifically illiterate troll would require something like that. Why can't YOU just step up and demonstrate that blind and undirected processes didit? Oh, that's right, you can't because you don't even know where to start.Joe
March 27, 2015
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CH, you also ask: "What do you want them to do, test for every possible function?" How about just passing the 'fitness test' so as to demonstrate your fantastic claim for microbes 'randomly' turning into man is even remotely feasible? Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - 'The Fitness Test' - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYaU4moNEBU Helping an Internet Debater Defend Intelligent Design - Casey Luskin - May 3, 2014 Excerpt: antibiotic resistance entails very small-scale degrees of biological change.,,, antibiotic resistant bacteria tend to "revert" to their prior forms after the antibacterial drug is removed. This is due to a "fitness cost," which suggests that mutations that allow antibiotic resistance are breaking down the normal, efficient operations of a bacterial cell, and are less "advantageous. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/05/helping_an_inte085171.html Of note: Antibiotic resistance turns out to be 'preexistent' in the cell and is not proof of evolution as Darwinists had claimed it was for years: (Ancient) Cave bacteria resistant to antibiotics - April 2012 Excerpt: Antibiotic-resistant bacteria cut off from the outside world for more than four million years have been found in a deep cave. The discovery is surprising because drug resistance is widely believed to be the result of too much treatment.,,, “Our study shows that antibiotic resistance is hard-wired into bacteria. It could be billions of years old, but we have only been trying to understand it for the last 70 years,” said Dr Gerry Wright, from McMaster University in Canada, who has analysed the microbes. http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/cave-bacteria-resistant-to-antibiotics-1-2229183# Of note: Your critique of Gauger and Axe's works reveals even more ignorance on your part. If anyone makes unfounded assumptions, it is certainly the Darwinists when they say ancient enzymes were more plastic than present enzymes: "Enzyme Families -- Shared Evolutionary History or Shared Design?" - Ann Gauger - December 4, 2014 Excerpt: If enzymes can't be recruited to genuinely new functions by unguided means, no matter how similar they are, the evolutionary story is false.,,, Taken together, since we found no enzyme that was within one mutation of cooption, the total number of mutations needed is at least four: one for duplication, one for over-production, and two or more single base changes. The waiting time required to achieve four mutations is 10^15 years. That's longer than the age of the universe. The real waiting time is likely to be much greater, since the two most likely candidate enzymes failed to be coopted by double mutations. We have now addressed two objections raised by our critics: that we didn't test the right mutation(s), and that we didn't use the right starting point. We tested all possible single base changes in nine different enzymes, Those nine enzymes are the most structurally similar of BioF's entire family We also tested 70 percent of double mutations in the two closest enzymes of those nine. Finally, some have said we should have used the ancestral enzyme as our starting point, because they believe modern enzymes are somehow different from ancient ones. Why do they think that? It's because modern enzymes can't be coopted to anything except trivial changes in function. In other words, they don't evolve! That is precisely the point we are making. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/12/a_new_paper_fro091701.htmlbornagain77
March 27, 2015
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CH as to your claim: "The cell isn’t capable of “remembering” that function and directly remaking it." And you know this how? Contrary to what you seem to believe, the evidence we have tells us that there is a tremendous amount of redundancy in the cell. That is why the first estimates for the 'minimal genome' were severe underestimates: Minimal genome should be twice the size - 2006 Excerpt: “Previous attempts to work out the minimal genome have relied on deleting individual genes in order to infer which genes are essential for maintaining life,” said Professor Laurence Hurst from the Department of Biology and Biochemistry at the University of Bath. “This knock out approach misses the fact that there are alternative genetic routes, or pathways, to the production of the same cellular product. “When you knock out one gene, the genome can compensate by using an alternative gene. “But when you repeat the knock out experiment by deleting the alternative, the genome can revert to the original gene instead. “Using the knock-out approach you could infer that both genes are expendable from the genome because there appears to be no deleterious effect in both experiments. http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/03/30/16976.aspx Genetic Redundancy is incompatible with Darwinism: The Problem Of Genetic Redundancy for Darwinism Excerpt: the very existence of genetic buffering, and the functional redundancies required for it, presents a paradox in light of the Darwinian (or: selectionist) concept. On one hand, for genetic buffering to take place there is a necessity for redundancies of gene function, on the other hand such redundancies are clearly unstable in face of natural selection and are therefore unlikely to be found in evolved genomes. Still, over 90% of the genes studies of model organisms were observed to be redundant [Conant GC et al, 2004; Kobayashi K et al, 2003; Baba T et al, 2006]. http://archive.is/YxXhdbornagain77
March 27, 2015
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Don't get your panties in a bunch, Andre. It was a joke. I was just trying to get little Joey here to look at both sides of the coin and see how idiotic his own "religious" ideas were. Maybe Joey was joking. Everything he says seems like a joke to me.Curly Howard
March 26, 2015
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Curly Howard
And how can we contact these “intelligent agencies” to thank them for causing all these wonderful diseases?
Right this quote above puts you straight into the buffoon category! Why? 1.) Any complex system that is made up of multiple parts are prone to failure look up failure rates..... 2.) This argument you just presented means you are one seriously dishonest human being because you just acknowledged design but complain about its reliability. 3.) Your objection is nothing more than a religious one.......Andre
March 26, 2015
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Why does it matter if the function was artificially deleted beforehand, BA? The cell isn't capable of "remembering" that function and directly remaking it. Deleting a function and then looking to see if the organism could remake that function simply made the researchers lives much easier. It would be virtually impossible to look for evolution of a completely new and random function. What do you want them to do, test for every possible function? And once again, a Gauger paper is produced that makes unfounded assumptions such as: mutations only change one amino acid at a time, and that protein evolution occurs in leaps from one function to the next. These are both false and in the paper you cited they show that alpha-lactalbumin has retained some of lysozyme-related ancestor's function that is also still seen in lysozyme. Not only is the sequence and structure of the two proteins very similar, but the organization of their genes are virtually identical. Does your designer like to copy/paste as much as you, or is it more likely that these two proteins evolved from a common ancestor? I'm gonna go with the second one.Curly Howard
March 26, 2015
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CH, you do realize that the 'beneficial' mutations, that were observed in Behe's survey of 4 decades of lab work, either resulted in the loss of a preexisting function, modification of a preexisting function, or gain of a preexisting function that was artificially deleted beforehand? In other words, there was never a gain of functional complexity/information that was not already preexistent in the cell. As should be needless to say, this is NOT the real time evidence that you need, for supposed 'beneficial' mutations, to support your neo-Darwinian position. For you to pretend it does support your position is just plain dishonest!bornagain77
March 26, 2015
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And do these same "intelligent agencies" modify the proteins that cause a vast array of diseases in us as well, Joey? And how can we contact these "intelligent agencies" to thank them for causing all these wonderful diseases?Curly Howard
March 26, 2015
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of note: Refined structure of baboon alpha-lactalbumin at 1.7 A resolution. Comparison with C-type lysozyme. - 1989 Excerpt: . Because of the striking similarity between the structure of lysozyme and alpha-lactalbumin, a more cautious molecular replacement approach was tried to refine the model.,,, The refinement was carried out using the human alpha-lactalbumin sequence and "omit maps" calculated during the course of refinement indicated eight possible sequence changes in the baboon alpha-lactalbumin X-ray sequence. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2769757 small problem CH: a protein conversion requiring 8 amino acid substitutions ain't gonna happen "Shared Evolutionary History or Shared Design?" - Ann Gauger - January 1, 2015 Excerpt: The waiting time required to achieve four mutations is 10^15 years. That's longer than the age of the universe. The real waiting time is likely to be much greater, since the two most likely candidate enzymes failed to be coopted by double mutations. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/01/happy_new_year092291.htmlbornagain77
March 26, 2015
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It was a perfect example of how small changes in one protein can produce a protein with a completely different function.
It wasn't an example of unguided evolution. That is the bluff. Intelligent agencies modify structures that were designed for one function to provide another function.
We know that research fraud occurs in all scientific fields of inquiry, do you guys think that intelligent design is immune to this fact?
No. However anyone who sez that unguided evolution can produce complex protein machinery, is a fraud.Joe
March 26, 2015
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It was a perfect example of how small changes in one protein can produce a protein with a completely different function. No bluffing required. Does Behe say that all mutations are deleterious? No. He doesn't. Even he knows that some are beneficial and that is exactly what evolution claims. By the way I asked you guys a while back and never got an answer: We know that research fraud occurs in all scientific fields of inquiry, do you guys think that intelligent design is immune to this fact? (if it actually were a scientific field of inquiry of course)Curly Howard
March 26, 2015
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Curly has a meltdown! Curly is a perfect example of what happens when ones bluff gets called and equivocation exposed. Pathetic little imp...Joe
March 26, 2015
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Curly Howard, you do understand what the difference between sequence comparisons and real time empirical evidence is don't you? This is the real time empirical evidence for the last four decades: “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Michael Behe talks about the preceding paper on this podcast: Michael Behe: Challenging Darwin, One Peer-Reviewed Paper at a Time - December 2010 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-12-23T11_53_46-08_00 Michael Behe: Intelligent Design – interview on radio program - ‘The Mind Renewed’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9SmPNQrQHEbornagain77
March 26, 2015
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Joe, you are a perfect example of what happens when a lunatic gets a hold of a computer. That's about it.Curly Howard
March 26, 2015
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The evolution of alpha-lactalbumin from lysozyme is a classic example,
Of what, equivocation?
Ah yes thank you for always weighing in on the subject, Joey. ….with your vast knowledge of biology and all.
I am not a bluffing equivocator, like you. At least I took the time to understand what is being debated. And my position on the subject has testable entailments whereas yours doesn't.Joe
March 26, 2015
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The evolution of alpha-lactalbumin from lysozyme is a classic example, BA. "Pick any complex structure or behavior and notice how those pesky biologists haven't come up with a detailed explanation for its evolution." That's your argument? You do realize that all your doing is picking on the gaps in knowledge, right? Molecular biology is barely out of its infancy and yet here you are complaining that we haven't explained some of its most complex topics. Genius.Curly Howard
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