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Origin of life researcher on why evolution theory needs revision

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Readers will recall that I (O’Leary for News) have been recommending Suzan Mazur’s recent book, The Origin of Life Circus, an indepth look at what is and isn’t working in origin of life research.

Suzan MazurMuch recommended is her interview with Paul Davies’ collaborator at Arizona State University, physicist Sara Walker, who emphasizes the need to address the information aspect of life. Walker politely dismisses claim that maybe life and non-life aren’t much different, and says,

Yes, I like to think about life in terms of information flows and how information is being processed. And because information is so widely distributed in biological systems, I think there’s merit to the idea of autocatalytic sets. Living systems are systems, and we really need to have a systems approach to the origin of life. You can’t just start with a single molecule. That’s why I like the metabolism-first viewpoint because it really is about how systems act and evolve collectively.

Walker has made this type of point before, and it is a welcome change from the usual: Maybe if we throw enough models at the origin of life… some of them will stick?

She also takes the risk of siding with those (Carl Woese included) who are negative about the Darwinian interpretation of evolution. Woese, perhaps the greatest 20th century biologist, the one who first identified the Archaea, regretted not overthrowing Darwin.

Suzan Mazur: How do you define evolution? You say “the concept of evolution itself may be in need of revision” and cite Carl Woese and Nigel Goldenfeld. What do you mean by evolution being in need of revision?

Sara Walker: I was thinking about Woese’s idea about early life being dominated by horizontal gene transfer, and that life was much more of a collective evolutionary process. It’s much harder, however, to get your head around the concept of a loose collection, a network evolving. Conceptually, the RNA world is much easier because we can keep imposing the idea of the Darwinian paradigm of an RNA replicator with vertical descent.

In short, RNA world was popular because it was Darwinian, not because it was well-founded.

Anyone familiar with pop science writing will recognize the phenomenon: Any given concept is invested with a certain sacred energy—for writers and readers— if Darwin either thought about it or could have imagined it or it fits in with something he thought.

This kind of thing would normally be thought of as religion but apparently the PR firm decided it was better marketed as science. Anyway…

Suzan Mazur: But you do think the concept of evolution is in need of revision.

Sara Walker: Yes. I think there are a lot of phenomena in evolution we haven’t investigated in as much depth as the standard genetic evolution paradigm.

It gets better. If you do not buy the book, you are missing the best parts.

Incidentally, science writer John Horgan’s recent defense of our right to disagree with experts nonetheless ruled out any serious criticism of the sort that Woese and Walker offer:

… he lists “evolution by natural selection” as one of the things that scientists have gotten “right, once and for all.”

This illustrates the seriousness of the problem. Horgan is reasonably skeptical—as all journalists should be—of establishment claims.

Except when it comes to Darwin.Then suddenly, the blinkers go on. The lights go out.

One must wish Walker well in her efforts to deal with this perennial thought blocker.

See also: Suzan Mazur interviews senior NASA origin of life scientist – It was stormy, and we aren’t talking weather here

and

RNA world would work if only life were simpler

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
15 Curly Howard March 24, 2015 at 2:02 pm The fact that you can come up with such an abrasive comment attacking someone for a simple spelling mistake “speaks volumes…”
You thought that was an "attack"? How thin is your skin anyway? If you want the low-down on Noble's position, he has written a whole book about it. Take my constructive criticism and go read his book. Then we'll talk.cantor
March 24, 2015
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BA, so you quote Noble as saying things need to be replaced, but you have no idea what he thinks it should be replaced with? You only have speculation of what you “think” Noble’s opinion is. Interesting. That’s all I was looking for. Thank you. HeKS, if Noble thought creationism was the answer, I would want to know why. I would neither think he was correct nor dismiss him, until I understood his position and the evidence behind it. I was simply wondering if BA knew what Noble thought it should be replaced with. I was assuming BA was citing a known evolutionary biologist as saying the theory needed to be replaced, but I was afraid that what Noble thinks it should be replaced with, isn’t very different from the current theory. But BA seems to be only speculative at best of Noble’s ideas. Cantor, how come you don’t jump on BA’s back for spelling the name wrong multiple times in comment 12? The fact that you can come up with such an abrasive comment attacking someone for a simple spelling mistake “speaks volumes…” The rest of you don’t even warrant a response.Curly Howard
March 24, 2015
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Speak up, Curly. You're mumbling..Axel
March 24, 2015
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8 Curly HowardMarch 23, 2015 at 9:30 pm I’m just asking you, BA, what Denis Nobel said it should be replaced with. Was it creationism?
The fact that you have no idea who Denis Noble is (let alone don't even know how to spell his name properly) speaks volumes about how closed is your circle of knowledge. Get outside your comfort zone and read some books.cantor
March 24, 2015
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CH, I think that Nobel has, for the most part, hitched his wagon to Shapiro's 'Natural Genetic Engineering'
http://www.thethirdwayofevolution.com/people#james-a-shapiro
In fact, Nobel mentions Shaprio's book, "Evolution: A View from the 21st Century" very favorably in this following video:
Rocking the foundations of biology - video http://www.voicesfromoxford.org/video/physiology-and-the-revolution-in-evolutionary-biology/184 Modern Synthesis Of Neo-Darwinism Is False – Denis Nobel – video https://vimeo.com/115822429
The trouble with Shapiro's term 'Natural Genetic Engineering' is obvious in the phrase 'Natural Genetic Engineering' itself. Namely, the word 'natural' and the word 'engineering' should not be uttered in the same breath together. Simply put, there is nothing 'natural' about 'engineering'. Shapiro tries to get around the obvious discordance of his phrase 'Natural Genetic Engineering' by appealing to the highly complex regulatory processes of the cell and by invoking something else he terms 'cell cognition':
Is James Shapiro a Darwinist After All? - William A. Dembski January 25, 2012 Excerpt: Shapiro places at the heart of his third way "natural genetic engineering, horizontal DNA transfer, interspecific hybridization, genome doubling and symbiogenesis," which he claims "provide solutions to problems recognized to be intractable under the limitations of conventional evolutionary thinking." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/01/is_james_shapir_2055551.html Shapiro on Cell cognition: "Recent postings have provoked numerous questions about my application of the term "cognitive" to cell regulatory processes. I base this usage on the notion that cognitive actions are knowledge-based and involve decisions appropriate to acquired information. It is common today for molecular, cell and developmental biologists to speak of cells "knowing" and "choosing" what to do under various conditions. While most scientists using these terms would insist they are just handy metaphors, I argue here that we should take these instinctive words more literally. Cell cognition may well prove itself a fruitful scientific concept." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/cell-cognition_b_1354889.html
The illegitimate highjacking of agent causality with 'cell cognition' and applying agent causality to the cell should be obvious. Interestingly, Talbott, who also lists his name among those on the 'The Third Way', has complained about just this problem:
The 'Mental Cell': Let’s Loosen Up Biological Thinking! - Stephen L. Talbott - September 9, 2014 Excerpt: Many biologists are content to dismiss the problem with hand-waving: “When we wield the language of agency, we are speaking metaphorically, and we could just as well, if less conveniently, abandon the metaphors”. Yet no scientist or philosopher has shown how this shift of language could be effected. And the fact of the matter is just obvious: the biologist who is not investigating how the organism achieves something in a well-directed way is not yet doing biology, as opposed to physics or chemistry. Is this in turn just hand-waving? Let the reader inclined to think so take up a challenge: pose a single topic for biological research, doing so in language that avoids all implication of agency, cognition, and purposiveness1. One reason this cannot be done is clear enough: molecular biology — the discipline that was finally going to reduce life unreservedly to mindless mechanism — is now posing its own severe challenges. In this era of Big Data, the message from every side concerns previously unimagined complexity, incessant cross-talk and intertwining pathways, wildly unexpected genomic performances, dynamic conformational changes involving proteins and their cooperative or antagonistic binding partners, pervasive multifunctionality, intricately directed behavior somehow arising from the interaction of countless players in interpenetrating networks, and opposite effects by the same molecules in slightly different contexts. The picture at the molecular level begins to look as lively and organic — and thoughtful — as life itself. http://natureinstitute.org/txt/st/org/comm/ar/2014/mental_cell_23.htm
But alas for "The Third Way', to be able to ascribe agent causality to the cell and prove that it can be the source for 'Natural Genetic Engineering' one must prove that the cell has the capacity to generate functional information/complexity above and beyond what is already inherent in life. And in this regards, the people of 'the Third Way' are in the same boat as neo-Darwinists. Namely, the people of 'The Third Way' have no mechanism they can point to to generate functional information/complexity above and beyond what is already in life:
On Protein Origins, Getting to the Root of Our Disagreement with James Shapiro - Doug Axe - January 2012 Excerpt: I know of many processes that people talk about as though they can do the job of inventing new proteins (and of many papers that have resulted from such talk), but when these ideas are pushed to the point of demonstration, they all seem to retreat into the realm of the theoretical. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/01/on_protein_orig055471.html
Also of note: Shapiro, tried to get 'randomness' into his bag of tricks by invoking something called 'Exon Shuffling'. Exon Shuffling does not help 'natural genetic engineering':
Exon Shuffling, and the Origins of Protein Folds - Jonathan M. - July 15, 2013 Excerpt: A frequently made claim in the scientific literature is that protein domains can be readily recombined to form novel folds. In Darwin’s Doubt, Stephen Meyer addresses this subject in detail (see Chapter 11). http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/07/exon_shuffling074401.html
Thus 'The Third Way' is an interesting assortment of people. They realize that neo-Darwinism is bankrupt. And they appeal, for the most part, to the stunning sophistication of regulatory processes in the cell to say life can 'naturally engineer' itself, and yet, at the end of the day, they end up exactly back where they started from, sitting with the neo-Darwinists, without a viable way to account for the origination of functional complexity/information.bornagain77
March 24, 2015
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Curly Howard- Please link to this alleged theory of evolution so we can all read what it has to say.Joe
March 24, 2015
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Ha, Heks!! Seems like you strung up "Curly" by his short Curlies! :DPaleysghost
March 23, 2015
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@Curly Howard #8 I'm not a Young Earth Creationist, but your question intrigues me. Suppose for a moment that Noble did think that the modern synthesis should be replaced with Creationism. That would imply he thought Creationism was true, making him a Creationist. Would you then think he was correct or dismiss him as being a Creationist? If the latter, what is the point of your question? If the former, why limit yourself to Denis Noble when there are other Creationists out there with credentials in Evolutionary Biology and relevant fields, some of whom started out as Atheist Evolutionists before being convinced by an examination of the evidence that the theory was irreparably broken and that Creationism (or something closer to it than to Evolutionary Theory) was right? As it happens, Noble is a committed Evolutionist. But as it also happens, his notions of evolution are highly consistent with what would be expected under an ID paradigm (see his lecture, "The Music of Life"). He just doesn't go there with them.HeKS
March 23, 2015
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I'm just asking you, BA, what Denis Nobel said it should be replaced with. Was it creationism?Curly Howard
March 23, 2015
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And what do you find 'scientifically', not personally, distasteful with Intelligence creating life on earth? Even Dawkins, and Crick, two hard core atheists, admitted the possibility of life being 'seeded' by extra-terrestrial intelligence on earth:
Ben Stein vs. Richard Dawkins Interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlZtEjtlirc The late Nobel prize winner Professor Francis Crick, OM FRS, along with British chemist Leslie Orgel proposed the theory of directed panspermia in 1973. A co-discoverer of the double helical structure of the DNA molecule, Crick found it impossible that the complexity of DNA could have evolved naturally. Directed Panspermia suggests that the seeds of life may have been purposely spread by an advanced extraterrestrial civilization,
Or is all intelligence excluded a-priori by you, no matter what the evidence says, since it runs contrary to your atheistic philosophy? If so, that's sad! Of related note:
Do You Like SETI? Fine, Then Let’s Dump Methodological Naturalism – Paul Nelson September 24, 2014 Excerpt: Epistemology — how we know — and ontology — what exists — are both affected by methodological naturalism. If we say, “We cannot know that a mind caused x,” laying down an epistemological boundary defined by MN, then our ontology comprising real causes for x won’t include minds. MN entails an ontology in which minds are the consequence of physics, and thus, can only be placeholders for a more detailed causal account in which physics is the only (ultimate) actor. You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact. “That’s crazy,” you reply, “I certainly did write my email.” Okay, then — to what does the pronoun “I” in that sentence refer? Your personal agency; your mind. Are you supernatural?,,, You are certainly an intelligent cause,, and your intelligence does not collapse into physics. (If it does collapse — i.e., can be reduced without explanatory loss — we haven’t the faintest idea how, which amounts to the same thing.) To explain the effects you bring about in the world — such as your email, a real pattern — we must refer to you as a unique agent. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/do_you_like_set090071.html
bornagain77
March 23, 2015
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"Denis Noble: I would say that it needs replacing. Yes." And what exactly does he say it should be replaced with? It isn't creationism by any chance is it?Curly Howard
March 23, 2015
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"Evolution is “revised” in the same way that you say those physics topics are “further established.” REALLY??? As Pauli would say, 'you are 'Not even wrong'!'
Physiology is rocking the foundations of evolutionary biology - Denis Noble - 17 MAY 2013 Excerpt: The ‘Modern Synthesis’ (Neo-Darwinism) is a mid-20th century gene-centric view of evolution, based on random mutations accumulating to produce gradual change through natural selection.,,, We now know that genetic change is far from random and often not gradual.,,, http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/expphysiol.2012.071134/abstract Replace the Modern Synthesis (Neo-Darwinism): An Interview With Denis Noble 07/09/2014 Excerpt: Suzan Mazur: In recent years the modern synthesis has been declared extended by major evolutionary thinkers (e.g., "the Altenberg 16" and others), as well as dead by major evolutionary thinkers, the late Lynn Margulis and Francisco Ayala among them. Ditto for the public discourse on the Internet. My understanding is that you are now calling for the modern synthesis to be replaced. Denis Noble: I would say that it needs replacing. Yes. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/suzan-mazur/replace-the-modern-sythes_b_5284211.html The Fate of Darwinism: Evolution After the Modern Synthesis - January 2012 Excerpt: We trace the history of the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis, and of genetic Darwinism generally, with a view to showing why, even in its current versions, it can no longer serve as a general framework for evolutionary theory. The main reason is empirical. Genetical Darwinism cannot accommodate the role of development (and of genes in development) in many evolutionary processes. http://www.springerlink.com/content/845x02v03g3t7002/
bornagain77
March 23, 2015
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Oh BA. Sorry but I don't see any difference between being "revised" and being "established to a greater level of accuracy." Evolution is "revised" in the same way that you say those physics topics are "further established."Curly Howard
March 23, 2015
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as to:
"Every biologist would say the current theory of evolution is in need of revision. It is constantly being revised by thousands of researchers every day."
If the only thing that we ever have direct proof of evolving more complexity is the theory of evolution itself, that should tell you something. Question: Why are Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity never 'revised' but are only established to greater, and greater, levels of accuracy and Darwinism is constantly revised and never tested for accuracy? Perhaps a minor revision to neo-Darwinian thought could be to throw out the entire materialistic framework that undergirds neo-Darwinism since it has now been shown, by quantum mechanics, that materialism is false?
"[while a number of philosophical ideas] may be logically consistent with present quantum mechanics, ...materialism is not." Eugene Wigner Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TViAqtowpvZy5PZpn-MoSK_&v=4C5pq7W5yRM Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism - By Bruce L Gordon: Excerpt: Because quantum theory is thought to provide the bedrock for our scientific understanding of physical reality, it is to this theory that the materialist inevitably appeals in support of his worldview. But having fled to science in search of a safe haven for his doctrines, the materialist instead finds that quantum theory in fact dissolves and defeats his materialist understanding of the world.,, The underlying problem is this: there are correlations in nature that require a causal explanation but for which no physical explanation is in principle possible. Furthermore, the nonlocalizability of field quanta entails that these entities, whatever they are, fail the criterion of material individuality. So, paradoxically and ironically, the most fundamental constituents and relations of the material world cannot, in principle, be understood in terms of material substances. Since there must be some explanation for these things, the correct explanation will have to be one which is non-physical - and this is plainly incompatible with any and all varieties of materialism. http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbscience.aspx?pageid=8589952939
Of related interest, we now have fairly good evidence for photosynthesis being on earth as long as it has been possible for photosynthetic life to be on earth:
The Sudden Appearance Of Life On Earth (3.9 billion years ago) – video https://vimeo.com/92413648 Iron in Primeval Seas Rusted by Bacteria - Apr. 23, 2013 Excerpt: The oldest known iron ores were deposited in the Precambrian period and are up to four billion years old (the Earth itself is estimated to be about 4.6 billion years old). ,,, This research not only provides the first clear evidence that microorganisms were directly involved in the deposition of Earth's oldest iron formations; it also indicates that large populations of oxygen-producing cyanobacteria were at work in the shallow areas of the ancient oceans, while deeper water still reached by the light (the photic zone) tended to be populated by anoxyenic or micro-aerophilic iron-oxidizing bacteria which formed the iron deposits.,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130423110750.htm Life's history in iron - Nov. 7, 2014 Excerpt: A new study examines how Earth's oldest iron formations could have been formed before oxygenic photosynthesis played a role in oxidizing iron.,,, Microorganisms that photosynthesize in the absence of oxygen assimilate carbon by using iron oxide (Fe(II)) as an electron donor instead of water. While oxygenic photosynthesis produces oxygen in the atmosphere (in the form of dioxygen), anoxygenic photosynthesis adds an electron to Fe(II) to produce Fe(III). "In other words, they oxidize the iron," explains Pecoits. "This finding is very important because it implies that this metabolism was already active back in the early Archean (ca. 3.8 Byr-ago)." http://phys.org/news/2014-11-life-history-iron.html
Moreover, in what I find to be a very fascinating discovery, it is found that photosynthetic life uses ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, quantum mechanical principles to accomplish photosynthesis. At the 21:00 minute mark of the following video, Dr Suarez explains why photosynthesis needs a 'non-local', beyond space and time, cause to explain its effect:
Nonlocality of Photosynthesis - Antoine Suarez - video - 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhMrrmlTXl4&feature=player_detailpage#t=1268s Quantum Mechanics Explains Efficiency of Photosynthesis - Jan. 9, 2014 Excerpt: ,,,said Alexandra Olaya-Castro (UCL Physics & Astronomy), supervisor and co-author of the research. "We found that the properties of some of the chromophore vibrations that assist energy transfer during photosynthesis can never be described with classical laws, and moreover, this non-classical behaviour enhances the efficiency of the energy transfer.",,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140109092008.htm
Whereas materialists have no clue how to explain how non-local photosynthesis is possible, as a Theist, I have a non-local, beyond space and time, cause to appeal to to explain non-local photosynthesis:
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
Music:
Toby Mac (In The Light) - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_MpGRQRrP0
bornagain77
March 23, 2015
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Every biologist would say the current theory of evolution is in need of revision. It is constantly being revised by thousands of researchers every day. What isn't in need of revision are the basic concepts of evolution and the fact that it has been occurring for billions of years, best explaining the diversity of life we see today.Curly Howard
March 23, 2015
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Walker doesn't reject abiogenesis or evolution but because she is even slightly critical of what is thought of here as Darwinism, she is given a favorable hearing. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"?Seversky
March 23, 2015
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