Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Orthomyxo Types on Keyboard; When Letters Appear on Screen “It’s Physical!”

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The appalling depths to which materialists will sink in attempting to insulate themselves from the conclusions compelled by the evidence were demonstrated in this exchange between Orthomyxo and Upright Biped regarding the genetic code:

UB: There is a point in time and space where an association is made between a codon and an anticodon. There is also a point in time and space when there is an association made between an anticodon and an amino acid.

UB: the association between the codon and the amino acid is a discontinuous association. It is not established by dynamics, but by a) a specific type of organization, and b) simultaneous coordination between two independent sets of multiple sequences

Note that the nothing UB said is the least bit controversial. All he is saying is that the genetic code works like any other code. As KF frequently notes, Crick knew this from the very beginning. Nearly 70 years ago (March 19, 1952) he wrote:

Which is why Orthomyxo’s reply is so stunning. Ortho’s deeply held metaphysical views are threatened by UB’s observation, so he says:

I really can’t say I find this to be a very good argument. The question is does the genetic code work through a series of chemical reactions. You say the chemical reaction that links amino acid to tRNA and the one that links loaded tRNAs to a codon are “discontinuous” because they happen at different times. (I presume by this you a referring to the fact loaded tRNAs used in translation are drawn from a pool of already made “translation-ready” tRNAs?). But I don’t see how that changes the fact that the genetic code works via a series of chemical reactions.

Ortho: Never mind that hyper-sophisticated “string data structure carrying a prong-height-based alphanumeric, 4 state per character code that uses chemical interactions and geometry at physical level.”* Nothing to see here. It’s chemical reactions all the way down.

UB sums up Ortho’s willfully obdurate reaction to the evidence:

You can push the “A” key on your computer and the letter “A” will appear on your screen. You can then ignore everything else and steadfastly argue that this entire process “works” by dynamics. This is the cop out that Ed chooses because he is intellectually unwilling to face the necessary coordination of symbol vehicles and constraints (i.e. the discontinuous association) required for the system to actually function as it does. If this is your cop out as well, then you are certainly free to take it. Is this your cop out? Regardless of your answer to that question, when you say that it is ”absolutely the case that the next amino acid in a developing protein is determined by chemistry” you are wrong. That chain of events from DNA to binding is undeniably discontinuous, just as it is from the “A” key on your computer to the letter “A” appearing on your screen.

__________

*HT: KF

Comments
JVL:
I’m just saying that we have no evidence of such beings except for humans.
Yes, we do. You just don't know how to assess the evidence.
What I disagree with with the ID design inference is the interpretation of the workings of DNA and other biological functions as necessarily having been created by some unstated form of ‘higher’ intelligence.
As I said- you don't know how to assess the evidence. And you sure as hell don't have anything to explain DNA and other biological functions.
I think that part is not based on widely accepted and tested science.
The Design inference is based on our knowledge of cause-and-effect relationships. Science 101
I do not agree that the methods used to detect design are sound.
They are as sound as anything science has.
They have not been accepted by a vast majority of working scientists.
1- You don't know that and 2- those who disagree with ID don't have anything to explain what we observe. They don't even have a testable methodology.
There is no robust and well used mathematical technique.
Compared to what your alleged vast majority of scientists have, ID is light years ahead. All the anti-ID mob has are promissory notes that they may find an answer in a thousand years or more. So we should wait. The problem is we will never find the answer they are seeking because it never happened. It is impossible for nature to produce coded information systems. Impossible. You have to be so desperate that it blinds you to reality to think that nature is capable of such a feat.ET
May 9, 2020
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Upright Biped: Stop dissembling. You were objecting to the design inference. No, and I've just clarified my belief. Well, we are using proper science to detect narrow-band radio signals coming from space in one instance, and we are using proper science to detect the exclusive physical signature of encoded language in the other? SETI is trying to detect anomalous signals using detection equipment. IF they think they've found one they will work hard to first see if they can find some non-intelligent source OR if the signal actually originated on earth. What I disagree with with the ID design inference is the interpretation of the workings of DNA and other biological functions as necessarily having been created by some unstated form of 'higher' intelligence. I think that part is not based on widely accepted and tested science. I do not agree that the methods by ID proponents used to detect design are sound. They have not been accepted by a vast majority of working scientists. They have not been adequately tested to see what the rates of false positives and negatives are. There is no robust and well used mathematical technique. Design detection is widely used in lots of field as ET is fond of pointing out although it is not called that. And I have no problem with the general concept. It's how it's done that the issue. I hope that's clearer. I'm sure you'll follow up if it's not.JVL
May 9, 2020
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Bornagain77: Not attributable to ‘natural’ causes’? Really??? And please pray tell, as a Darwinist, what exactly is there in your worldview other than ‘natural causes’? You’ve exhausted all of your possible options with your appeal to ‘natural causes’. Okay, okay; I should have said UNGUIDED natural causes or non-intelligent causes. I think you know what I meant. You see JVL, since agent causality, and/or intelligent causality, necessarily entails free will, and free will is explicitly denied under the premises of Atheistic Materialism, then you simply have no place for agent causality , and/or intelligent causality, within your Darwinian worldview. i.e. As an atheist, all you have got to work with is ‘natural causes’. You're starting to wander away from the discussion. And yes, I am aware that many materialists have stated, quite clearly and vociferously, that free will doesn't exist. I, personally, find that hard to swallow, but I admit that a purely materialistic point of view would dictate that we are 'meat robots'. I just don't want to believe that. I've been chastised for not wanting to get too involved in a discussion of free will and that's because i am personally conflicted over the matter and don't find my own opinions or arguments clear at all. Because of that I try and stay out of the issue. BUT, I do admit, that a strict materialistic view does entail no free will. I just don't want to accept that. Perhaps I'm not a materialist deep down. I don't know. I just know that denying I have free will would feel like giving up any kind of point to existence I believed in. I don't know how you'll take this admission on my part. I think it's a separate issue from the origin of life and species. You may disagree on that but I do not feel any cognitive dissonance in that regard. Anyway, I'm trying to be honest with you.JVL
May 9, 2020
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. #74
Well, I mostly talking about not having evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial intelligences.
Stop dissembling. You were objecting to the design inference.
I would say that the techniques used by the SETI institute varied widely from others. So I do not think it’s consistent to label all such attempts as valid or invalid without first considering how the determination is made.
Stop dissembling
I would say it depends on how you go about it.
Well, we are using proper science to detect narrow-band radio signals coming from space in one instance, and we are using proper science to detect the exclusive physical signature of encoded language in the other? So "how we do it" isn't the question JVL. Let me repeat the question for you again: So in the interest of integrity, are you now saying that the design inference is invalid and so is SETI, or are you saying that SETI is valid and so is the design inference? You can't have it both ways JVL.Upright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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Kairosfocus: DNA and the Genetic Code are not widely accepted empirically grounded facts? As I said, no one is disputing the facts, it's an interpretation of those facts that's in dispute. You look at the complicating workings of DNA and come to the conclusion that it must have been designed via various evaluative techniques. (I'm not saying you just decided!) Others disagree with how you come to that interpretation. That's it.JVL
May 9, 2020
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Upright BiPed: You just got through very clearly objecting to the design inference from the predicted and confirmed use of encoded language in DNA because we have no evidence of an intelligence outside of the use of encoded language in DNA. Well, I mostly talking about not having evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial intelligences. That would make SETI’s methodology flawed as well because they would be faced with the exact same situation. I would say that the techniques used by the SETI institute varied widely from others. So I do not think it's consistent to label all such attempts as valid or invalid without first considering how the determination is made. So in the interest of integrity, are you now saying that the design inference is invalid and so is SETI, or are you saying that the SETI is valid and so is the design inference? I would say it depends on how you go about it.JVL
May 9, 2020
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JVL states,
"If something is detected that can’t be clearly attributed to natural causes,,,"
Not attributable to 'natural' causes'? Really??? And please pray tell, as a Darwinist, what exactly is there in your worldview other than 'natural causes'? You've exhausted all of your possible options with your appeal to 'natural causes'. As Paul Nelson stated, "some feature of "intelligence" must be irreducible to physics, (i.e. 'natural causes), because otherwise we’re back to physics versus physics, and there’s nothing for SETI to look for."
Excerpt: Assessing the Damage MN Does to Freedom of Inquiry Epistemology — how we know — and ontology — what exists — are both affected by methodological naturalism. If we say, "We cannot know that a mind caused x," laying down an epistemological boundary defined by MN, then our ontology comprising real causes for x won’t include minds. MN entails an ontology in which minds are the consequence of physics, and thus, can only be placeholders for a more detailed causal account in which physics is the only (ultimate) actor. You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact. "That’s crazy," you reply, "I certainly did write my email." Okay, then — to what does the pronoun "I" in that sentence refer? Your personal agency; your mind. Are you supernatural?,,, You are certainly an intelligent cause, however, and your intelligence does not collapse into physics. (If it does collapse — i.e., can be reduced without explanatory loss — we haven’t the faintest idea how, which amounts to the same thing.) To explain the effects you bring about in the world — such as your email, a real pattern — we must refer to you as a unique agent.,,, ,,,, some feature of "intelligence" must be irreducible to physics, (i.e. 'natural causes), because otherwise we’re back to physics versus physics, and there’s nothing for SETI to look for. https://evolutionnews.org/2014/09/do_you_like_set/
You see JVL, since agent causality, and/or intelligent causality, necessarily entails free will, and free will is explicitly denied under the premises of Atheistic Materialism, then you simply have no place for agent causality , and/or intelligent causality, within your Darwinian worldview. i.e. As an atheist, all you have got to work with is 'natural causes'. The intractable problem for you, and all other atheists, is that we see agent causality all around us. In fact, since methodological naturalism rules agent causality, (i.e. free will and consciousness), out of ‘scientific’ bounds before any scientific investigation has even begun, then demonstrating a miracle becomes as easy as falling off a log. Dr. Craig Hazen, in the following video at the 12:26 minute mark, relates how he performed, for an audience full of academics at a college, a ‘miracle’ simply by raising his arm,,
The Intersection of Science and Religion – Craig Hazen, PhD – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?f.....qlE#t=746s
JVL, perhaps you would like to explain, by purely 'natural causes', exactly how Dr. Hazen was able to raise his arm if it was not he himself who chose. via his free will. to raise his arm? I'm sure a Nobel prize awaits you if you can solve that irresolvable dilemma for atheists. Supplemental notes:
“You are robots made out of meat. Which is what I am going to try to convince you of today” Jerry Coyne – No, You’re Not a Robot Made Out of Meat (Science Uprising 02) – video https://youtu.be/rQo6SWjwQIk?list=PLR8eQzfCOiS1OmYcqv_yQSpje4p7rAE7-&t=20 The Confidence of Jerry Coyne – Ross Douthat – January 6, 2014 Excerpt: then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant:,,) Read more here: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_r=0
bornagain77
May 9, 2020
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JVL, DNA and the Genetic Code are not widely accepted empirically grounded facts? That in DNA there is algorithmic code that initiates, elongates and terminates peptide chains, towards creating proteins? That proteins are the workhorses of the cell? That, a stepwise finite scale coded procedure that solves a problem and/or halts is an algorithm? That an algorithm is thus inherently linguistic and purposeful? That such algorithms, associated data structures and coded symbolic information are translated down to machine code that works at physical machine level? That, there is a standard, widely recognised communication system architecture? That it is possible to map the protein synthesis process to that system? That, Yockey did so, publishing his result? I suggest that what is rejected is the cumulative force of the evidence, as it cuts across an entrenched ideology and points to a paradigm shift. KFkairosfocus
May 9, 2020
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. #70
But the only intelligent beings we know of that are even close to accomplishing highly sophisticated feats of engineering are human beings. We’ve got no living quarters, no spacecraft, no midden piles, no processing plants, pretty much nothing.
You just got through very clearly objecting to the design inference from the predicted and confirmed use of encoded language in DNA because we have no evidence of an intelligence outside the use of encoded language in DNA. That would make SETI’s methodology flawed as well because they would be faced with the exact same situation. So in the interest of integrity, are you now saying that the design inference is invalid and so is SETI, or are you saying that the SETI is valid and so is the design inference? Which is it JVL? Will you have to rationalize a difference where there is none? Will you be putting a smilie face and a couple of cheery exclamation points next to that rationalization?Upright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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Upright BiPed: So, you then think SETI is fatally flawed, but since its not harming anything, it should be continued anyway? I didn't say it was fatally flawed! I said they haven't found anything yet. And I also said they might find something one day. If I had the resources I'd be looking. Why not? When you 'look' you have to use the capabilities you have and right now that is limited to detecting electromagnetic signals and anomalies. If something is detected that can't be clearly attributed to natural causes then further exploration would happen. It happened after pulsars were detected for the first time.JVL
May 9, 2020
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Kairosfocus: the “no evidence” gambit is a signature selectively hyperskeptical fallacy. How about: no widely accepted evidence? And I was talking about aliens; are you saying the machinations of DNA and its design are evidence of aliens? the D.N.A. IS a code The code is the table showing the correspondences. How it arose is the question. The evidence you are trying to dismiss . . . I'm not dismissing the facts; but it's clear most working scientists disagree with your design inference based on the facts. The repeated attempt to dismiss simply inadvertently underscores the force of the point and how telling it is. Look, I'm sorry that most working scientists and a lot of other people disagree with you over your design inference. I don't think you're going to win over any more converts by only insisting you are correct. I think at this stage it would be good to come up with some more data and evidence. That's why I was discussing the lack of evidence for non-human intelligences ASIDE FROM DNA and its functioning. Also, if there are extraterrestrials that have been in the vicinity and started life on earth then we would have a chance to find some non-living physical evidence of their existence. Seems like something worth thinking about at least.JVL
May 9, 2020
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. JVL, So, you then think SETI is fatally flawed, but since its not harming anything, it should be continued anyway? Really? Allow me to present a text. Given your reasoning above, will you please tell me what in this text is inaccurate:
The validity of any test proposing to identify the action of an unknown intelligence is explicitly tied to the methodology being used to conduct the test. The only methodology currently accepted by the wider scientific community regarding an unknown intelligence is the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence (SETI) which was initiated in the early 1960s. Regardless of any questions one might have about the ultimate goal of the SETI project, the simple fact remains that the science itself is empirically sound. It is made valid by their treatment of the concept of “intelligence”. Intelligence is a difficult concept to define because of its many variable aspects. When science is challenged by ambiguous concepts (such as intelligence), researchers will often develop an operational definition of the concept in order produce valid results. Creating an operational definition allows researchers to isolate and measure a specific aspect of a phenomenon which is uniquely associated with that phenomenon. Lori Marino PhD (SETI/NASA Virtual Resource Center for Interdisciplinary Inquiry into Intelligent Life) explains SETI’s approach to the concept of intelligence:
"There is no consensus on a strict definition of intelligence, and there likely never will be because intelligence is what is known as a fuzzy concept; it lacks well-defined boundaries and contains multiple components.? However, the study of intelligence lies firmly in the domain of empirical science because its features can be operationally defined and its correlates can be quantified and measured."
In the SETI project, intelligence is operationally defined by a specific physical capacity. That physical capacity is “the capacity to transmit a narrow-band radio signal detectable from earth”. This operational definition is derived from our universal experience as scientific observers. It is our universal experience that narrow-band radio signals are not produced by natural causes, but are the unambiguous product of intelligence. A clear distinction is therefore made between those things that can be explained by natural unguided causes and those things that are a measurable consequence of intelligent action. SETI explains:
"Narrow-band signals – perhaps only a few Hertz wide or less – are the mark of a purposely built transmitter. Natural cosmic noisemakers, such as pulsars, quasars, and the turbulent, thin interstellar gas of our own Milky Way, do not make radio signals that are this narrow".
Upon receiving a narrow-band signal, SETI will initiate a procedure to establish that the signal is not mistakenly of terrestrial origin. After verifying that the signal is indeed extra-terrestrial, the SETI Institute will rightly consider the reception of this signal as authentic evidence of an intelligent source in the cosmos, and “the discovery will be announced as quickly and as widely as possible”. The conclusions of the scientists at SETI will be made solely on the basis of their operational definition (without any additional knowledge of the source of the intelligence) and will be subject to falsification only if an unguided natural (non-intelligent) source is shown to be capable of producing the type of signal in question.
Upright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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Upright Biped: So, as a matter of having scientific integrity, you believe SETI is fatally flawed and should be dismantled? There's no harm in looking! But they haven't found any evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence. I don't think it should be dismantled, it's not harming anyone and, who knows, they might hear something!! That would be exciting!!JVL
May 9, 2020
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. #60
But the only intelligent beings we know of ...
So, as a matter of having scientific integrity, you believe SETI is fatally flawed and should be dismantled?Upright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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JVL, the "no evidence" gambit is a signature selectively hyperskeptical fallacy. The evidence has been on the table, taught in every school, for coming on two full generations. As Crick noted from the outset, in the form of a belief: " . . . the D.N.A. IS a code" and that belief was then drawn out in multiple Nobel Prize winning work over the next 20 years. The evidence you are trying to dismiss is the molecular nanotech, prong height [ . . . similar to von Neumann's kinematic self replicator . . . ] 4-state per symbol code used algorithmically to build proteins, and requiring chicken and egg causal loop molecular nanomachines constituting a von Neuman kinematic self replicator. That is, despite denials and dismissals, LANGUAGE is at the heart of the design for cell based life. That has to be faced as we contemplate the protein synthesis machine code and its dozens of dialects. The repeated attempt to dismiss simply inadvertently underscores the force of the point and how telling it is. KFkairosfocus
May 9, 2020
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. #51 Ed, sometimes you just try too hard. It’s a bad look. Allow me to remind you of something that you seem to forget with incredible regularity. We are all human beings here, Ed. On average we were all pushed and prodded in our youth to develop a lifelong sense of judgement and to make proper distinctions between things like right and wrong, truth and fiction, vice and virtue, and so on, and so forth. It is one of the things that is most common between us, regardless of our cultures, and with any luck, by the time we reach maturity, we end up with a healthy guiding experience of being part of, and watching, human relationships. Among those many common experiences is the experience of someone who simply will not answer a valid question. This is an inevitable experience where not answering the question actually becomes their answer. We understand this predicament and we recognize what it looks like in our human brothers and sisters - with all the denials and the (often flagrant) excuses and the deflections of this and that and the other. What I am getting at here Ed, is that we all know what cookie crumbs in a little boy’s bed actually means, as a very simple example which any parent would understand. Now Ed, you have been told that a physicist can practice their craft and measure the physical system that enables the use of language. A physicist can measure that system by its necessary physical entailments (and their relationships to one another). A physicist can therefore exclusively identify the use of language among other physical systems, and the gene system has been thus identified. This has been done. Furthermore, you’ve told that the physicists measurement and identification is a confirmation of a previous prediction – a prediction that the gene system would necessarily function by way of encoded language, which is itself an additional confirmation on the very nature of such systems. In other words, Ed, the conclusion that the gene system uses a code (for crying out loud) is a conclusion that comes through science without even a hair out of place. Having to stoop to “Francis Crick was sloppy” as your next maneuver (to avoid the physics) is therefore quite a sight to see. It makes you look weak, poorly motivated, and as common as you can humanly be -- just as non-answers often do. You should probably stop using that excuse.Upright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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Drawing out the significance of tRNA, with graphics and vids: https://uncommondescent.com/design-inference/how-the-folded-structure-and-then-the-loading-of-trna-corrects-attempts-to-reduce-protein-synthesis-to-mere-chemistry/kairosfocus
May 9, 2020
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Kairosfocus: So, as you know or should know, it is an abuse of inductive reasoning to infer from our case or to suggest from our case that we exhaust possibilities for such beings. I'm not, I'm just saying that we have no evidence of such beings except for humans. The rhetorical resort is utterly telling on the force of the evidence and on the ruinous nature of selective hyperskepticism and resulting refusal to entertain the force of evidence. Yes but you haven't been completely successful getting most scientists to agree with your evidence. In the world common forum we'd have to call that disputed at best.JVL
May 9, 2020
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JVL, we are contingent, intelligent, responsible and rational. We exemplify what is possible, we do not exhaust it. So, as you know or should know, it is an abuse of inductive reasoning to infer from our case or to suggest from our case that we exhaust possibilities for such beings. This becomes all the more blatantly fallacious and even desperate when it is used as a rhetorical gambit to try to blunt the evidence that in the heart of the living cell is alphanumeric, algorithmic, linguistic code. And that evidence alone -- the evidence of the whole world of cell based life -- is striking and has been striking since March 19, 1953. This is not an "isolated"readily dismissed case, we are talking about a central, keystone aspect of cell based life. The rhetorical resort is utterly telling on the force of the evidence and on the ruinous nature of selective hyperskepticism and resulting refusal to entertain the force of evidence. Precisely, what we have now seen live with the "gold standard" fallacy in the face of a pandemic and mounting evidence. So, this is not merely an academic oddity, it is a ruinous error we are dealing with. KFkairosfocus
May 9, 2020
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KF: EG, you know full well that no one takes seriously the notion that we exhaust possibilities for intelligent beings. But the only intelligent beings we know of that are even close to accomplishing highly sophisticated feats of engineering are human beings. We've got no living quarters, no spacecraft, no midden piles, no processing plants, pretty much nothing. I'm perfectly happy to guess that there are other intelligent beings in the universe but, so far, we have zero evidence they exist. And we certainly have no evidence they have visited Earth.JVL
May 9, 2020
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EG, you know full well that no one takes seriously the notion that we exhaust possibilities for intelligent beings. Looking to linked logic of being, we exemplify intelligence but in no way that implies exhausting it. Therefore the rhetorical gambit to try to suggest that cases of human intelligence forbid us from inferring characteristics of intelligence that could go beyond humans, is nonsense. That this has been used as a common atheistical talking point despite cogent correction only underscores the weakness of the atheistical case. Especially, when the issue on the table is linguistic, algorithmic, alphanumerical code not only antecedent to human life but constitutive of cell based life. BA77 has a solid point, including his note from one of the all time great Mathematicians, Euler. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2020
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Ten yards for piling on. :)Ed George
May 8, 2020
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KF
It is noteworthy that algorithmic, alphanumeric code — a linguistic phenomenon — remains stubbornly as only the product of intelligence.
In fact, to the best of our knowledge, it remains stubbornly as only the product of human intelligence.Ed George
May 8, 2020
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Mr. Arrington you said that,,,
short of finding the proverbial “made by YHWH” written in the cell, there is no evidence that would be sufficient to “prove” the existence of a designer to (Ed George).
I have to disagree with you Mr Arrington. I firmly believe that even that would not be sufficient for Ed George. Issac Newton once said, "In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God's existence."
"In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God's existence." - Newton - Quoted in Des MacHale, Wisdom (London, 2002).
And indeed, it does not take being a genius of Newton's caliber to see evidence for God all around us. For example, one 'scientific' atheist was driven to belief in God, not by any scientific evidence, but simply by seeing her newborn baby,
What caused Jennifer Fulwiler to question her atheism to begin with? It was the birth of her first child. She says that when she looked at her child, the only way her atheist mind could explain the love that she had for him was to assume it was the result of nothing more than chemical reactions in her brain. However, in following, she says: "And I looked down at him, and I realized that’s not true." - Jennifer Fulwiler: Scientific Atheism to Christ - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMbUvlOcXNA
Thus I firmly hold that it is not the scientific evidence that is lacking for Ed George and most of the other militant atheists on UD. It is something far deeper on the emotional level that prevents them, via their ability to reason, from acknowledging the existence of God. As Leonard Euler noted centuries ago, "we should not be surprised that the best refutations count for nothing and that the weakest and most ridiculous reasoning, which has so often been shown to be baseless, is continuously repeated. If these people (atheists) maintained the slightest rigor, the slightest taste for the truth, it would be quite easy to steer them away from their errors; but their tendency towards stubbornness makes this completely impossible."
A DEFENSE OF THE (Divine) REVELATION AGAINST THE OBJECTIONS OF FREETHINKERS, BY MR. (Leonard) EULER Excerpt: "The freethinkers (atheists) have yet to produce any objections that have not long been refuted most thoroughly. But since they are not motivated by the love of truth, and since they have an entirely different point of view, we should not be surprised that the best refutations count for nothing and that the weakest and most ridiculous reasoning, which has so often been shown to be baseless, is continuously repeated. If these people maintained the slightest rigor, the slightest taste for the truth, it would be quite easy to steer them away from their errors; but their tendency towards stubbornness makes this completely impossible." http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~euler/docs/translations/E092trans.pdf
Indeed, if only reason would work on atheists,
“One absolutely central inconsistency ruins [the popular scientific philosophy]. The whole picture professes to depend on inferences from observed facts. Unless inference is valid, the whole picture disappears… unless Reason is an absolute, all is in ruins. Yet those who ask me to believe this world picture also ask me to believe that Reason is simply the unforeseen and unintended by-product of mindless matter at one stage of its endless and aimless becoming. Here is flat contradiction. They ask me at the same moment to accept a conclusion and to discredit the only testimony on which that conclusion can be based.” —C.S. Lewis, Is Theology Poetry (aka the Argument from Reason) The Argument From Reason - resource page http://www.reasonsforgod.org/the-argument-from-reason/ John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” of note: ‘the Word’ in John1:1 is translated from ‘Logos’ in Greek. Logos also happens to be the root word from which we derive our modern word logic http://etymonline.com/?term=logic What is the Logos? Logos is a Greek word literally translated as “word, speech, or utterance.” However, in Greek philosophy, Logos refers to divine reason or the power that puts sense into the world making order instead of chaos.,,, In the Gospel of John, John writes “In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). John appealed to his readers by saying in essence, “You’ve been thinking, talking, and writing about the Word (divine reason) for centuries and now I will tell you who He is.” https://www.compellingtruth.org/what-is-the-Logos.html
bornagain77
May 8, 2020
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PS: Here is Monod, inadvertently laying out the ideological imposition, in a 1971 TV interview:
[T]he scientific attitude implies what I call the postulate of objectivity—that is to say, the fundamental postulate that there is no plan, that there is no intention in the universe. Now, this is basically incompatible with virtually all the religious or metaphysical systems whatever, all of which try to show that there is some sort of harmony between man and the universe and that man is a product—predictable if not indispensable—of the evolution of the universe.— Jacques Monod [Quoted in John C. Hess, ‘French Nobel Biologist Says World Based On Chance’, New York Times (15 Mar 1971), p. 6. Cited in Herbert Marcuse, Counter-Revolution and Revolt (1972), p. 66.]
kairosfocus
May 8, 2020
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BA, the recent exchanges over the pandemic confirm the patterns of ideologically driven fallacies we face. It seems clear that the substitution of hyperskepticism for prudence has been an intellectual disaster of first magnitude. At this point, we simply point to the selective hyperskepticism and ideological domination acknowledged by several key figures. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2020
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EG, clever barbed quips are at best appeals to ill-founded prejudice. It is noteworthy that algorithmic, alphanumeric code -- a linguistic phenomenon -- remains stubbornly as only the product of intelligence. Indeed, there is good reason to see that blind search of large configuration spaces are a maximally implausible source for same; save when Lewontin-style ideological question-begging tilts the balances. More generally, complex, functionally specific organisation is also information rich and is again a reliable sign of intelligently directed configuration as key cause. Ideological closed mindedness, sneering dismissals and selective hyperskepticism are not about to change that balance on the merits. KF PS: In answer to your ad hominem, I simply challenge you to provide empirical observation that FCSO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 bits reliably comes about by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity: ______ I predict, on years of attempts, you cannot. I simply note how yet again you push your obsession with perversities into a discussion where it has no relevance. Beyond a certain point, that goes to motivation and is revealing.kairosfocus
May 8, 2020
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Ed
Personally, I would have no problem if it were proven that a designer [] existed.
That is easy for Ed to say, because short of finding the proverbial "made by YHWH" written in the cell, there is no evidence that would be sufficient to "prove" the existence of a designer to him. We know this, because the fact that a semiotic code exists in every single living cell doesn't make the slightest impression.Barry Arrington
May 8, 2020
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UB
The worst thing for materialists, indeed the whole reason for the incessant smear campaign on design,...
ID does not need us to discredit their own "science". They are doing quite well on their own. You and KF have jumped all over the fact that Crick and others refer to the information contained within DNA as the genetic "code", as if the sloppy use of the English language by scientists is proof of design. All that can be said at this time is that neither ID nor naturalism have been able to demonstrate how life arose. But at least there are people actually working hard trying to do this, and it is not the ID scientists. KF and others often accuse people like me of being irrationally driven by our ideologies. I guess the best gauge to judge which side is more ideologically driven is to ask a simple question. Who's way of life would be more greatly affected if they were shown to be wrong? Personally, I would have no problem if it were proven that a designer (AKA God) existed and was responsible for the universe and all life within it. It certainly would not affect the way I live my life or the way I treat others, and I would be very happy knowing that my soul will live forever. However, if ID is proven wrong, do you want to be the one to tell KF that homosexuality is not a sin, that miracles do not exists, that he will not see his passed loved ones when he dies?Ed George
May 8, 2020
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UB, I have seen newspapers refuse to touch it. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2020
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