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OU Biochemist Phillip Klebba on the Bacterial Flagellum

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My to-do list for some time has included addressing University of Oklahoma biochemist Phillip Klebba’s written response to my September 17, 2007 OU lecture at Meacham Auditorium. Klebba, during the Q&A, asserted that biologists know full well how the bacterial flagellum arose without the need for intelligent design. He then proceeded to describe a four-stage evolutionary process that went from a pilum to the type-three secretory system to an ATP-type motor to the full flagellum. I told him during the Q&A that he was bluffing and that his account of flagellar evolution did not provide the specificity needed to confirm its plausibility. He then lectured me on the fact that I’m not a biologist and thus was not in a position to make such a pronouncement. But the fact is that one does not have to be a biologist to assess Klebba’s claims. Rather, one needs some elementary facility with logic to see whether his claims stack up.

Fortunately, Klebba wrote up his proposal on flagellar evolution in an essay for the OU student newspaper (the essay appeared September 20, 2007 here). I urge UD readers to look at it carefully for it betrays the bankruptcy of evolutionary theorizing when it comes to explaining the emergence of molecular machines. Contrary to molecular and cell biologists such as James Shapiro and Franklin Harold, who regard current evolutionary explanations of molecular machines as spectacularly unsuccessful, Klebba proclaims that the problem is solved:

The evolutionary relationships that led to the bacterial flagellar motor — the poster of irreducible complexity for proponents of intelligent design — are now well-known among scientists studying the biochemistry of bacterial cell envelopes. In brief, the flagellar assembly, which propels bacteria through fluid environments, consists of a long, hollow polymeric filament, a basal body that holds the filament in the cell membrane system, and a molecular motor complex containing a stator and rotor that turn the filament around and around when it is energized.

I’m afraid that after all these years in the ID business, I’m still not entirely used to the brazenness of evolutionary theorists in proclaiming that its unsolved problems are solved. Klebba continues:

In reality, a number of precursors to the complete flagellar assembly are known. They provide the stepwise development of novel functions, and when juxtaposed together, lead to a selectable trait. The emergence of the flagellar motility system involves a progression from pili to type-III secretory systems, that acquires the proton-motive, force-driven rotational capability of the ATP synthase motor (a primary source of energy generation) and sensory and regulatory systems that determine the direction and the duration of cell propagation. Each individual system alone has survival benefits for the cell. When combined one-by-one, they provide a stepwise path to the development of a new advantageous trait: the ability to swim toward something desirable, e.g., high concentrations of sugars — and away from something noxious, e.g., high concentrations of acid. This adaptive evolutionary progression is simple and logical, but unfortunately, is not understood by Dembski and his colleagues.

Actually, my colleagues and I understand such explanations all too well. In fact, why stop at four evolutionary stages in explaining the flagellum? Nick Matzke some years back had six (see my reply to Matzke’s proposal here). Klebba, Matzke, and others seem not to understand that arguments from imagination in which one posits a few putative evolutionary precursors do not constitute a detailed testable model for how the flagellum arose. Take Klebba’s transition from a pilum to a type-three secretory system. Precisely which pilum and which type-three secretory system does he have in mind? How exactly did a pilum shed its hair-like filament in becoming a type-three secretory system (last I looked, type-three secretory systems are microsyringes that do not have hair-like filaments)? What new genes need to be added to form a type-three secretory system from a pilum? What old genes need to be lost to form a type-three secretory system from a pilum? In the evolution from the pilum to the type-three secretory system, how many intermediate systems whose functions were neither that of a pilum nor that of a type-three secretory system were there? Klebba and his colleagues never answer such questions.

To me it is mindboggling that evolutionary theorists continue to get away with this sort of shoddy reasoning (no, wait, I wrote an essay on “Evolutionary Logic” some years ago — I do understand!). Systems like the bacterial flagellum are engineered systems. An engineer explaining the technological evolution of such a system would have to exhibit the actual systems in its evolution and show the precise changes required to go from one system to the next. Evolutionary dreamers like Klebba, on the other hand, need merely cite some general categories of systems and then proclaim that “evolution” (used as a conjuring word like “abracadabra”) can tie them all together.

Toward the close of his essay, Klebba remarks: “As a researcher who understands the biochemistry that was the main subject of the lecture, I was surprised to find the discussion much less substantive than I anticipated.” The lack of substance is entirely on Klebba’s part. Indeed, simply citing his own credentials and then offering a handwaving account of how the flagellum arose does not resolve an outstanding open problem confronting evolutionary theory, namely, how Darwinian processes can actually clear the brick wall that they constantly seem to run into when trying to account for molecular machines such as the flagellum.

I ran Klebba’s essay by a molecular biologist colleague who works professionally on the flagellum (not Behe). Here’s what s/he wrote back:

I imagine Phil is citing the Matzke/Pallen article or Milt Saier’s recent article. What I find interesting is that both admit we have no evolutionary scheme to account for the flagella; instead they merely offer a “plausible” account. That being in print, it is now taken for gospel. Both Pallen and Saier have changed they position radically in recent publications. In 2005, Pallen wrote a bioinformatics paper asking how good is the E. coli/Salmonella flagella paradigm across the phylogenetic tree. Amazingly, it holds up well by their blast comparisons. In 2006, the situation has changed where they state now that to use E.coli/Salmonella for a paradigm, as used by ID proponents, doesn’t make sense — there is no true flagellum. Saier likewise argued in 2005 that based on bioinformatics, the flagellum must have arisen before the Type 3 system. Now he conveniently asserts that both are the product of some hypothetical ancestral protein secretion system. . . . [O]ne might ask where did Phil Klebba get his information (or more precisely his “revelation”) that the evolution of the flagellum has been worked out??? When no one knows. From Matzke? Someone with a Master’s degree in Geography? Reminds me of the old adage applied to fundamentalist preachers — “Argument weak, shout here!”

Comments
"Reminds me of the old adage applied to fundamentalist preachers — “Argument weak, shout here!" The way I remember it is "argument weak, pound pulpit here", but the effect is the same. ;)mike1962
December 3, 2007
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"and when juxtaposed together, lead to a selectable trait. " Yes, and wave your magic want and blow a little fairy dust. Personally, I'm not so much impressed with the parts (as impressive as they are) which may have been "precursor" as much as what it took to get them to assemble together in the right order at the right time. Sheesh. Gimme a break.mike1962
December 3, 2007
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No biologist or biochemist argues we understand all the mechanisms of nature. Clearly we don’t. However, we need not look to intelligent design for the explanation of these puzzles, but rather await the stepwise progress of human technology and knowledge. He seems to be summarizing how biologists train themselves to be blind based on myths about Progress and so on. Apparently biologists are indoctrinated, step by step, with imaginary notions of natural progress. They "need not look" or try to be aware of intelligence when simply imagining things about the tick and tock typical to technology, attributing their imaginings to the Blind Watchmaker is so much easier. Ironically "stepwise" progress will never come if biologists sit around waiting for their Mommy Nature to make the type of selections that they imagine come naturally to her. Given their indoctrination it seems that generally they'll never admit to the quantifiable impact of sight on things like intelligent selection and the progress typical to technology. Indoctrination is not education, although those subject to it will fail to understand that. Sight is not blindness, although those who are blind may be confused on that point. Recognizing and seeing ID as a possible falsification of naturalism is only a science/knowledge stopper to those who want to act as if knowledge drawn mainly from their own imaginations is on a par with harder forms of science like physics which need not be propped up by or linked with philosophic naturalism. Note that as knowledge tends towards progress "stepwise" based on the use of technology which tends to progress in such a way what is being found is that philosophic naturalism is less and less tenable the more that can be observed. Yet somehow progress towards something other a philosophy of naturalism is apparently interpreted as being based on "gaps" in knowledge, as many biologists want to fill all gaps with their own imaginations instead of admitting that the work of a mind can have effects which can be known as such. They seem to close their mind of the synaptic gaps as a supposed matter of principle and then imagine that opening it again will be the end of all progress towards knowledge as we know it. Every biologist that I've ever debated has been quite the fearful fellow as a result of the notion of Progress that seems to come naturally to them, yet putting aside all the fear and reading between their lines it still seems that they have a little mind left even if it is trying to crawl back into the womb of their Mother Nature, step by imaginary step.mynym
December 3, 2007
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In order for a putative Darwinian pathway to have any credibility the following questions must be answered: 1) What specific mutations or other random changes to what genetic information would be required to engineer the intermediate forms? 2) What is the probability of these random changes occurring and being fixed in the population, given the available number of individuals and generations? Without answers to these questions it's all just woolgathering. Not only are these questions never answered, they are never even asked.GilDodgen
December 3, 2007
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bFast: "I fail to see why IC should hold the burden of proof. It is the IC hypothesis that claims a falsification of NDE. As NDE is the established paradyme whose historicity has been challenged, it is NDE that carries the burden of proof." It is the job of an advocate for a position or theory to make his case. He should not expect the other guy to make his case for him.Benjamin L. Harville
December 3, 2007
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Allann:
however is it not the case rather that the assumption of IC requires taking on all challengers, and places the burden on IC to disprove any plausible (if incomplete) solutions?
I fail to see why IC should hold the burden of proof. It is the IC hypothesis that claims a falsification of NDE. As NDE is the established paradyme whose historicity has been challenged, it is NDE that carries the burden of proof. One thing is for sure -- ID, in the form of the IC of the bacterial flagellum is not proving to be a research stopper, it is begging for a serious scientific research project.bFast
December 3, 2007
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In this case I am going to defend Klebba. For the flagellum to be IC then there cannot be a plausible mutation/selection path. The model discussed here is far from complete in the detailed sense required to completely disprove IC; however it is not simply a made up solution. Significant work has been done to show that the major interum steps in the model are viable. This is than an argument about burden of proof. From a design side there is the perspecitve that IC must be disproven; however is it not the case rather that the assumption of IC requires taking on all challengers, and places the burden on IC to disprove any plausible (if incomplete) solutions?Alann
December 3, 2007
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I wonder if you all remember that rather clever animated video "showing" how a normal looking 'mouse-trap' can be built starting out with only a length of wire just by re-shaping the wire, all the while leaving behind 'intermediates' that were 'functional' mouse-traps. I bet its still somewhere on the internet. I once considered this video problematic since it seemed to some to provide an explanation of how irreducibly complex features could come about in a 'step-by-step' fashion. I no longer consider it an "explanation", but rather an "illustration". An illustration of what? Of a "just-so story". Indeed, that is all it is: a 'visual' just-so story. Darwin applauded a keen imagination. 'Just-so' stories require it. And Klebba doesn't disappoint.PaV
December 3, 2007
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bornagain77: "To presume a purely materialistic answer prior to investigation is just plain wrong." I disagree. For centuries, naturalism has worked very well in explaining the natural world. There's no reason to think it will stop working now.Benjamin L. Harville
December 3, 2007
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In any case he is apparently not clever enough to realize that he has falsified natural selection. The steps he describes are impossible without a definite end in view. A tuning pin cannot come into being except in the context of a piano. Natural selection knows nothing and cannot conceive of such concepts as "swim toward" or "swim away." And what are we to make of the use of the word "desirable"?allanius
December 3, 2007
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BarryA, Michael Strauss teaches at OU.jerry
December 3, 2007
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Well, he teaches at OU, and that explains a lot. I grew up in Texas, and long ago we learned not to expect too much from our friends from north of the Red River. I remember when I was a teenager, my sister (who is very petite) was flirting with an Okie boy. He was teasing her about being so small, and she was trying to prove she was 16. Finally, she pulled our her drivers license and was about to show it to him when my father pushed her hand down and said, "Honey, haven't I ever told you never to embarrass an Okie by asking him to read!”BarryA
December 3, 2007
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"When combined one-by-one, they provide a stepwise path to the development of a new advantageous trait." Yeah, but how exactly are the pre-cursors combined, and what force is joining them together? And why should these separate items coalesce at all? Is this supposed to be the way a true responsible scientist does science? Here we have someone blaming others for shoddy thinking and giving us an excellent of demonstration of it at the same time. Probably the only good thing about the article. Hi all. New to this site. Glad to be here.JPCollado
December 3, 2007
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Is he as Klebba as he thinks he is?idnet.com.au
December 3, 2007
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Man, I love posts like this...thank you Bill! Amazing that the evolutionists always claim that we are the ones who never ask questions and just state that "goddit". Yet, here are the questions being asked by IDists... "Take Klebba’s transition from a pilum to a type-three secretory system. Precisely which pilum and which type-three secretory system does he have in mind? How exactly did a pilum shed its hair-like filament in becoming a type-three secretory system (last I looked, type-three secretory systems are microsyringes that do not have hair-like filaments)? What new genes need to be added to form a type-three secretory system from a pilum? What old genes need to be lost to form a type-three secretory system from a pilum? In the evolution from the pilum to the type-three secretory system, how many intermediate systems whose functions were neither that of a pilum nor that of a type-three secretory system were there? Klebba and his colleagues never answer such questions." ...and Klebba claims that science has already solved the mystery of the evolution of the flagellum! Mind boggling, the logic these folks possess.Forthekids
December 3, 2007
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Explanations of the sort Klebba puts forth remind me of the Hawaiian Island analogy, in which the existance of the Hawaiian chain is offered as evidence for a land bridge between L.A. and Tokyo! (There are 137 islands and atolls in the Hawaiian chain)russ
December 3, 2007
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[...] OU Biochemist Phillip Klebba on the Bacterial Flagellum Klebba wrote up his proposal on flagellar evolution in an essay for the OU student newspaper (the essay appeared September 20, 2007 here). I urge UD readers to look at it carefully for it betrays the bankruptcy of evolutionary theorizing when it comes to explaining the emergence of molecular machines. Contrary to molecular and cell biologists such as James Shapiro and Franklin Harold, who regard current evolutionary explanations of molecular machines as spectacularly unsuccessful, Klebba proclaims that the problem is solved: [...]» Molecular machines
December 3, 2007
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I think this statement of Phillip Klebba’s is very telling: No biologist or biochemist argues we understand all the mechanisms of nature. Clearly we don’t. However, we need not look to intelligent design for the explanation of these puzzles, but rather await the stepwise progress of human technology and knowledge. It’s no these leaps of human understanding win Nobel prizes — the peak of intellectual recognition. Thus, one one hand he is, at least, honest enough to admit gaps exist in our knowledge. Then he makes a serious error in logic: "However, we need not look to intelligent design for the explanation of these puzzles" So I ask, How in the world does he know the answer will not be found in the ID line of inquiry prior to investigation. To presume a purely materialistic answer prior to investigation is just plain wrong. As well I point out that the prior presumptions of materialism have been blatantly wrong on every major discovery in science this last century. 1. Materialism did not predict the big bang. Yet Theism always said the universe was created. 2. Materialism did not predict a sub-atomic (quantum) world that blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. Yet Theism always said the universe is the craftsmanship of God who is not limited by time or space. 3. Materialism did not predict the fact that time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop at the speed of light, as revealed by Einstein's special theory of relativity. Yet Theism always said that God exists in a timeless eternity. 4. Materialism did not predict the stunning precision for the underlying universal constants for the universe, found in the Anthropic Principle, which allows life as we know it to be possible. Yet Theism always said God laid the foundation of the universe, so the stunning, unchanging, clockwork precision found for the various universal constants is not at all unexpected for Theism. 5. Materialism predicted that complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Yet statistical analysis of the many required parameters that enable complex life to be possible on earth reveals that the earth is extremely unique in its ability to support complex life in this universe. Theism would have expected the earth to be extremely unique in this universe in its ability to support complex life. 6. Materialism did not predict the fact that the DNA code is, according to Bill Gates, far, far more advanced than any computer code ever written by man. Yet Theism would have naturally expected this level of complexity in the DNA code. 7. Materialism presumed a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA, which is not the case at all. Yet Theism would have naturally presumed such a high if not, what most likely is, complete negative mutation rate to an organism’s DNA. 8. Materialism presumed a very simple first life form. Yet the simplest life ever found on Earth is, according to Geneticist Michael Denton PhD., far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. Yet Theism would have naturally expected this level of complexity for the “simplest” life on earth. 9. Materialism predicted that it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Yet we find evidence for “complex” photo-synthetic life in the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth (Minik T. Rosing and Robert Frei, “U-Rich Archaean Sea-Floor Sediments from Greenland—Indications of >3700 Ma Oxygenic Photosynthesis", Earth and Planetary Science Letters 6907 (2003): 1-8) Theism would have naturally expected this sudden appearance of life on earth. Just what gives Phillip Klebba, or any scientist for that matter, the audacity to say what we are and what we are not allowed to discover in science? What If God actually did create life on earth? Would not Phillip Klebba's preconceived philosophical (materialistic) bias prior to investigation prevent us from finding it, or at least delay its discovery by the scientific method? As well I point out that breakthroughs in Quantum mechanics, specifically quantum non-locality, offer promising lines of inquiry for ID by manipulating the complex specified information (CSI) of "large" biological molecules. From a quick search I found these following papers backing up my assertion: Robust quantum entanglement can involve millions of atoms or molecules. http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0701&L=quantum-mind&P=59 Nonlocal Effects of Chemical Substances on the Brain Produced through Quantum Entanglement http://www.ptep-online.com/index_files/2006/PP-06-04.PDF [QA01.04] Quantum Control of Molecules Kent R. Wilson (University of California, San Diego) please note this fact: “non-local control of large molecules in solution (including proteins)” Not this is what I call a VERY promising line of research! Would Phillip Klebba even investigate the possibility of manipulating useful information non-locally as a ID proponent would? I think not, for I believe he would not even consider it possible in the first place for it definitely is not a line of inquiry a materialist would use to investigate. So yes, science will go on and wonderful breakthroughs will occur, in spite of materialistic impediments, and the breakthroughs will be no thanks to the materialism Phillip Klebba so blindly places his trust and faith in.bornagain77
December 3, 2007
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I critiqued Matzke's explanation for the flagellum here: http://telicthoughts.com/combinatorial-dependencies/ based on the issue of combinatorial dependencies in machine design and the "you can't get there from here" problem of stepwise unintelligent design. Interestingly enough, although he regularly comments on Telic Thought's posts he total abstained from responding to my criticisms.Steve Petermann
December 3, 2007
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They just don’t get it. Or perhaps they actually do and instinctively understand that it will be death to the Darwinian paradigm to acknowledge any aspect of the now-too-obvious information-based intelligent design at the very core of biological life. The “arguments from imagination” (exactly right!) that the Darwinists rely on in their contorted attempts to shake off the ID onslaught are full of holes in logic, fact and premise. Take the notion of co-option, for example, imagining that a pilum somehow became a type-three secretory system and was thereafter available for “co-option” into a flagellum. This PZ Meyer-type reasoning fails to grasp the most basic tenet of Intelligent Design theory, namely that even a pilum, or molecular syringe, are themselves irreducibly complex units. The pilum is manufactured and specified for a particular function; as is a molecular syringe; as is the flagellum. As is a mousetrap. PZ-type reasoning is akin to imagining a VW Beetle “evolving” into a submarine – in effect, postulating a mongrel contraption of no practical use (a topic adequately addressed in a previous post.) Likewise, to remove part of the mousetrap and use the remaining component as a tie-pin actually proves design by an external intelligent agent, and disproves Darwinism. (The “intelligence” of one so doing remains questionable, nonetheless.) Co-opting a mousetrap as a tie-pin proves design and disproves Darwinism because the external agent applies knowledge and information that he or she has about how things work, and simultaneously disproves supposed Darwinian upward-and-better progression because the resulting “tie-pin” is neither elegant, efficient or functional. It seems blindingly obvious that intelligence is behind the information-rich genomic operating systems and program codes that govern process, function and form in every aspect of biological organisms.Emkay
December 3, 2007
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If there is anything in Dr. Klebba's pontification it is that the IC nature of the bacterial flagellum is scientifically falsifiable. The day that the biological community can demonstrate a mutation-event by mutation-event path from a pre-flagellum to a flagellum where each event produces a bacterium that within some realistic environment has an advantage over its predicessor, I will contend that the inevolvability of the bacterial flagellum will have been falsified. I say to the scientif commmunity, quit claiming that IC is non-falsifiable. Falsify it! Put up, or shut up!bFast
December 3, 2007
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