Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Gonzalez tenure case: University admin’s credibility in shreds as truth emerges

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

UPDATED! Well, the jig is up now, re the Guillermo Gonzalez case. I’ve just seen the whack of documents Discovery Institute is releasing.

1. It appears that the decision had been made to turn Gonzalez down for tenure at Iowa State University before he had actually applied for it, and the reason was his advocacy of intelligent design.

Read this story in the Des Moines Register last week by Lisa Rossi

ISU President Gregory Geoffroy said in June that Gonzalez’s advocacy of the “intelligent design” concept was not a factor in the decision to turn down his request for tenure.

Geoffroy said he focused his review on Gonzalez’s overall record of scientific accomplishment as an assistant professor at ISU.

and then this one, after the Register got hold of the e-mails via a public records request:

The disclosure of the e-mails is contrary to what ISU officials emphasized after Gonzalez, an assistant professor in physics and astronomy, learned that his university colleagues had voted to deny his bid for tenure.

[ … ]

In response to a question about why the influence of intelligent design in the physics and astronomy tenure decisions was not acknowledged publicly by the university earlier, McCarroll said, “I can’t speak for every one of those individuals” who voted on Gonzalez’s tenure.

 (Clarification December 6, 2007: John West of the Discovery Institute (DI) has written to advise me that the Record did not make a public records request, but was shown the documents by ISU after DI had announced that it had obtained them and that they would be made public. It appears that, by ignoring the embargo, the Register scooped the other media, not DI. Still,  to their credit, they know a story when they see one. – d.)

2. The alleged tenure review was in fact a fishing expedition whose purpose was to find any grounds at all for denying tenure to a man who emerges clearly an outstanding scientist (in flat contradiction to some of President Geoffroy’s other claims), and far more so than the colleagues who were doing the fishing. For example, the fact that some of his widely cited papers were cited less often than others was grounds for a focus on the less widely cited ones. The fact that he published a textbook was dinged as an unwise use of his time.

Much of the most damaging stuff won’t make it to Gonzalez’s Regents’ appeal on a technicality, but it’s now going to be out there for all to see.

Anyway, brava! to journalist Lisa Rossi for exposing the vast credibility gap between what President Geoffroy was claiming to the media and the facts of the case. When oh when will administrators learn, do NOT tell stretchers to the media. Even journalists who support you get mad if they think you are lying. As I said, more later.

– Actually, Rossi for the Register scooped Disco on the e-mails business, publishing on Saturday what they were going to reveal at a press conference the following Monday. Both groups had filed public records requests but the newspaper won. But the Disco package is pretty amazing anyway, and brings out a lot of stuff that’s not in the Register.

Here’s Disco’s press release

Faculty involved in the tenure decision were well aware of Gonzalez’s support for ID. More than one year before his tenure evaluation was scheduled, one ISU professor wrote an e-mail that left no doubt that Gonzalez’s tenure application would never receive a fair evaluation.

“He will be up for tenure next year,” wrote the professor. “And if he keeps up, it might be a hard sell to the department.”
Contrary to his public statements, and those of ISU President Gregory Geoffroy, the chairman of ISU’s Department of Physics and Astronomy, Dr. Eli Rosenberg, stated in Dr. Gonzalez’s tenure dossier that Dr. Gonzalez’s support for intelligent design “disqualifies him from serving as a science educator

And here is their longer report:

In a particularly damning e-mail, ISU Physicist John Hauptmann admitted to faculty member Hector Avalos that “principle [of freedom of inquiry] has been violated massively in the physics department”21 in its treatment of Dr. Gonzalez.
Other faculty members privately expressed qualms at the unethical and dishonest way they were plotting against Dr. Gonzalez behind his back. Dr. Harmon stated to Kawaler that, “I don’t think talking behind Guillermo’s back is quite ethical.”22 Paul Canfield had similar concerns, stating that they should issue the statement because otherwise it would appear that they were doing exactly what they were doing: secretly scheming about how to attack the viewpoint of a department member who was under consideration for tenure. Canfield wrote:
o “Do we do everything at secret meetings and the hope the Discovery Institute’s Lawyers don’t subpoena our records? If I were Gonzalez, I would prefer my colleagues were honest and forthright in their opinions, as he seems to be with his.”23

I bet Canfield wishes that even more now. There may or may not be a God but there certainly is a Nemesis.

And all this about a guy who was far more productive scientifically than any of them!

Here’s Discovery boss Bruce Chapman on the “iceberg” unearthed in Iowa:

Readers may suspect that I am overstating the problem at ISU, but they should look more closely. For openers, it might be asked how many of Gonzalez’ critics–the people quoted in the emails and the President and other Administration officials and Board at ISU who have ruled on this matter have ever bothered to read The Privileged Planet, the co-authored book that seems to have agitated Gonzalez’ enemies? Are they even aware of the internationally prominent scientists who praised Professor Gonzalez’ work? Is this failure of curiosity not then a clear indication of the faculty’s and University President’s prejudice–literally their “pre-judgment”?

What emerges is that the Iowa profs are a bunch of hicks, actually. Why would they have read the book they were dissing? Bad for their eyesight I am sure.

Questions:

– Shouldn’t Geoffroy resign and take his chief witch hunters with him?

– Shouldn’t Gonzalez sue these people?

– What about the fact that they were using public funds to conduct their nasty little war against a superior scientist?

But now here’s the really amazing thing: The Regents, to whom Gonzalez is appealing, are refusing, on a technicality, to examine the damning e-mails. (He should have known about the e-mails, you see … ) That way they can turn Gonzalez down despite what has happened.

No, I am not making this up. I couldn’t, honestly.

By the way, ISU tried to sue the Discos to get them to drop their public records request. As it happens, the Des Moines Register was making one anyway, so it would have been usesless. And THAT, by the way, is what newspapering is supposed to be about. Not a cushy lifestyle for the feeble sonsbergers of wealthy men.

How productive was Gonzalez? I can’t use sidebars in a blog, so this quote from Disco’s memo will just have to be long:

He has published more peer-reviewed journal articles than all but one of the faculty members granted tenure this year at ISU – across the university as a whole, not just his department. In fact, Gonzalez has more peer-reviewed journal articles to his credit than all but five faculty members granted tenure at ISU since 2003. In addition, he exceeded his department’s own tenure standards, which define “excellence” in terms of publications in refereed science journals, by more than 350%.

Yet ISU president Dr. Gregory Geoffroy has attributed his rejection of Gonzalez’s tenure appeal to matters having nothing to do with intelligent design. The astronomer simply “did not show the trajectory of excellence that we expect,” Geoffroy has said.

His department chairman, Dr. Eli Rosenberg, claims in Gonzalez’s tenure dossier that the astronomer failed to show an “overall positive trend” in his research record of late. Yet in 2006, the year he was up for tenure, Gonzalez published more total articles than all other tenured ISU astronomers. Moreover, Dr. Gonzalez has more per-capita citations in science journals and per-capita scientific publications than any other tenured astronomer at ISU since 2001, the year he joined ISU. In other words, Gonzalez outperformed the very astronomers that voted against his tenure, negating any basis for their complaining about the “trend” of his research while at ISU.

Meanwhile, his work has been featured in the world’s most prestigious science journals, Nature in 2002 and Science in 2004. He co-authored the cover story for Scientific American in 2001, and he is also co-author of a 2006 peer-reviewed Cambridge University Press textbook, Observational Astronomy. He is clearly impacting the next generation of scientists, as his ideas about the Galactic Habitable Zone have even been incorporated into two astronomy textbooks by other authors.

With all this going for him, and being well-liked personally by his colleagues, getting tenure at ISU should have been nearly automatic. The university has struggled to explain the reason for his rejection, offering explanations that fall far short of being convincing. The claim is advanced, for example, that Gonzalez failed to secure enough funding for his research. But observational astronomers are not heavily dependent on sumptuous grants to support their research. They only need an already existing telescope, enough money to fly or drive to the facility, and an inexpensive computer to analyze the observational data they obtain.

In any event, Gonzalez received more grant funding than 35 percent of faculty members who were granted tenure at ISU in 2007 and who listed their research grants on their curriculum vitae. Indeed, of the utmost importance is the fact that grants are not even listed in the tenure guidelines for his department. Of the nine review letters that gave recommendations regarding Dr. Gonzalez’s final tenure decision, six strongly supported his tenure promotion and gave glowing endorsements of his reputation and academic achievements. (Even Dr. Gonzalez’s tenure dossier admitted that “five of the external letter writers … including senior scientists at prestigious institutions recommend his promotion” and that only “[t]hree do not.”) One reviewer observed that ISU’s Department of Physics and Astronomy does not consider grants as a criterion for gaining tenure, and stated that “Dr. Gonzalez is eminently qualified for the promotion according to your guidelines of excellence in scholarship and exhibiting a potential for national distinction. In light of your criteria I would certainly recommend the promotion.” ISU chose to ignore the advice of these senior scientists at prestigious institutions.

As before, more later.

Comments
[...] being denied tenure at Iowa State University under scandalous circumstances and this new appointment, Gonzalez was at Grove [...]God's iPod - Uncommon Descent - Intelligent Design
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
02:24 PM
2
02
24
PM
PDT
[...] being denied tenure at Iowa State University under scandalous circumstances and this new appointment, Gonzalez was at Grove [...]“Controversial Astronomer” Guillermo Gonzalez Hired at Ball State U (Indiana) | Uncommon Descent
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
02:15 PM
2
02
15
PM
PDT
[...] grounds were cited and strenuously defended (mostly by fans of materialism and Darwin). Then the e-mail trail showed that the true cause was his sympathy for intelligent design (in this case design of the [...]Expelled: “Denormalizing” the Darwin thugs | Uncommon Descent
April 5, 2008
April
04
Apr
5
05
2008
06:24 PM
6
06
24
PM
PDT
A footnote or two: First, I note that the basic rhetorical pattern of refusal to address the actual issue of injustice has continued right to the end of the thread. GAW's remark at 57 is sadly telling: Mountains out of molehills, anyone? [No surprise to see he was subsequently banned.] That is telling, especially when we see the putting up of a whitewash in the face of clear evidence that the tenure process was simply tainted from even before it began. 1] On topic: GG tenure case ENV has a useful summary on the case here. Key points -- follow the link for details -- include:
# Eli Rosenberg, Chair of the Department of Physics and Astronomy, instructed other voting faculty in Dr. Gonzalez’s tenure file that his support for ID as science is a litmus test that “disqualifies him from serving as a science educator.” # John Hauptman, an ISU physicist, explicitly admitted that he voted against Dr. Gonzalez’s tenure because “Intelligent design is not even a theory.” He further said, “I participated in the initial vote and voted no, based on this fundamental question: What is science?” # In secret e-mails recently released, other faculty prejudged Gonzalez’s tenure case a year before the official tenure deliberation process began. It is noteworthy that in these e-mails, the faculty were only complaining about Dr. Gonzalez’s support for intelligent design—they were NOT complaining about his academic track record . . . . In other words, various ISU faculty prejudged Dr. Gonzalez's tenure case long before they even started to look at Gonzalez’s academic accomplishments, and in fact they admitted they would hold him to a higher standard than otherwise due to his support for ID . . . . # Had Dr. Gonzalez been denied tenure after receiving a fair hearing, perhaps there would be no grounds for complaint. But this evidence shows that without question, Dr. Gonzalez was indeed not given a fair hearing. # Dr. Gonzalez’s department does not even consider grants as a criterion for gaining tenure. As one external reviewer observed “Dr. Gonzalez is eminently qualified for the promotion according to your guidelines of excellence in scholarship and exhibiting a potential for national distinction. In light of your criteria I would certainly recommend the promotion.” (emphasis added) So the over-focus on his department’s perception of Gonzalez’s grants is largely a red-herring and a distraction. In the end, grants just became the pretext for denying tenure to Dr. Gonzalez . . . . Nevermind the fact that Dr. Gonzalez has published over 350% more peer-reviewed science articles than what his department ordinarily requires for indicating the type of reputation that demonstrates research excellence.
Clearly, we can see the playbook rule: when defending injustice -- change the subject and blame the victim. And, by the way, the attempt to redefine science as in effect the best evolutionary materialistic explanation of the cosmos from hydrogen to humans, is historically utterly unwarranted and philosophically deeply question-begging. So, all the huffing and puffing that since GG wasn't a nice little materialist he could not be a real scientist is is its own refutation. 2] What about grants and grad students etc? First, on papers, it is plain that the criteria applied related to the lifetime performance. On that ground, GG far exceeded the criteria,and even on the record of papers in ISU, he also exceeded the criteria. DLH at 22 on publications is telling. That's why we see the sort of external recommendation just cited. It is troubling indeed that a man who has pioneered a whole new area for observational Astronomy was not able to attract heavy funding and a large number of grad students. But, given the attacks made upon him, perhaps that is not so surprising. In short, we need to ask how well he did relative to the resources reasonably available to him and within his reasonable control -- especially as we are here looking at the problem that grantmaking can easily become an instrument of control and ideologisation of science. For that, the answer is obvious and in his favour. Maya's attempted denial of the facts on the record at 38, is therefore inadvertently revealing:
The bottom line is that Gonzalez has managed to get only a few articles published in refereed journals in recent years (Publish or Perish!), he has not generated grant revenue for his department, and none of the graduate students he has been advising have completed their doctoral work, despite his having been at ISU since 2001 (the usual time to complete such work is around three years).
Now, it would be nice to address some of this in detail, but the basic problem here is that if GG were half as bad as he is being made out to look, he would never have attracted the sort of recommendation we see above, now would he have been given the sort of favourable internal rating as a researcher [as I recall, he won a prize at ISU] nor would he have been able to publish a textbook with so prestigious a publisher. In short,this sort of statement reads like the allegations in a bad divorce case, not a reasonable record of credible facts relevant to the case. And, of course, this was never the issue, based on what we know from the record was going on long before the actual vote was made. 3] Dcost, 89: it looked like Maya was making good points. If any of her arguments have already been addressed, it would be a simple matter to provide a reference to the refutation. First, you underscore the need for a FAQ list. However, there is a fundamental problem with the point you are trying to make. This can be seen from looking at: 4] Maya, 72: The easiest way to silence the ID critics is to state the theory clearly, show how it explains the evidence better than the alternatives, make the falsifiable predictions, and do the experiments to test those predictions. Already done. And confirmed. And published under peer-review. An excellent case in point on inference to best explanation in biology on a longstanding conundrum is Meyer's peer-reviewed article on the Cambrian Revolution -- despite many dismissals, simply READ it to see its point. Similarly Loennig's discussion of dynamic genomes makes a very interesting point or two. Minnich has been doing interesting empirical research on the flagellum for years, which came out at Dover and was duly ignored by that Judge when he rueld that such research does not exist. But, it does. All three may be accessed through the link on peer reviewed publications. In astronomy (GG's field) the issues over finetuning are a matter of massive record. Cf my always linked Section D for a discussion. There's more -- simply go to the DI CSC web site and look at the collection of peer-reviewed articles there, as linked. In short, M has come across as someone who is denying the easily accessible evidence as it does not seem to suit her case. That will get the ire of the likes of even a Patrick. Onlookers, kindly cf as a start my always linked -- I give this as this gives a quick run through the different domains that ID relates to. 5] according to Michael Behe. In Dover he admitted, under oath, that a definition of science that included ID would also include astrology. Is Behe incorrect? This reflects a classic distortion of what Behe said, as Jerry pointed out in 77. More to the point, Evo mat advocates very often distort the nature of the design inference and other linked theoretical constructs. So, it is appropriate to point out Wm A D's useful definition:
intelligent design begins with a seemingly innocuous question: Can objects, even if nothing is known about how they arose, exhibit features that reliably signal the action of an intelligent cause? . . . Proponents of intelligent design, known as design theorists, purport to study such signs formally, rigorously, and scientifically. Intelligent design may therefore be defined as the science that studies signs of intelligence.
In very brief summary: --> we know of three major causal factors, from massive experience: chance, necessity, agency. --> Techniques for discriminating the effects of the three are routine scientific praxis and technical praxis, e.g statistical inference, or even the basic inference that one has a signal in a world where noise exists and could in principle mimic a signal. --> The essence of such techniques is that one looks at the existence of contingency [which points away form nechanical necessity and associated natural regularities], then one looks for a pattern that we have a sufficiently large configuration space so that islands of observed functionality or other specification are sufficiently unlikely on the null hyp of chance that we may reasonably infer to agency. --> In every case where we do directly know the cause, such FSCI is the product of agency. Therefore on inference to best explanation we have good grounds to infer that even if we do not directly observe the agent in action, FSCI is a signature of agency. [Cf. my always linked Appendix 1 section 6 for a discussion of why this is so on basic principles of statistical mechanics.] --> In short, and in light of notorious longstanding conundrums like the origin of life, the Cambrian life revolution and the observed cosmological finetuning, which ID explains but evo mat based paradigms cannot reasonably account for, ID has significant scientific merit. --> However, in some cases, such inference to design points away from the assumptions of the evolutionary materialism that currently dominates much of science and associated educational institutions, the media and public policy. --> So, those who are committed to this worldview and associated research programmes that embed that worldview, challenge inference to design. Not at root because of evidence and explanation but because of a priori metaphysical commitments and demands. 6] Is no one here willing or able to meet the challenge of a mere grad student? Great rhetorical flourish. The problem is, it is a fair observation on the above, that in reality M has been reiterating long since answered points, as thought they were brand new; then, proceed to be largely unresponsive to replies and references. That is why Patrick, a rather tolerant guy, eventually gave up on her. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 12, 2007
December
12
Dec
12
12
2007
05:37 AM
5
05
37
AM
PDT
"Actually, TO and PT moderate as well and have banned ID proponents, so I fail to see how it’s neutral in that sense, either." I never suggested PT, nor did Maya in her challenge to you. Talk.origins has a robo-moderator that merely prevents cross-posting to too many groups (five, I believe). "The main issue is that Maya was not making any positive contribution to the discussion on UD. Instead she was parroting talking points that I’ve seen phrased by many Darwinists." From an outsider's perspective, pointed here by someone who does follow the ID movement fairly closely, it looked like Maya was making good points. If any of her arguments have already been addressed, it would be a simple matter to provide a reference to the refutation. Banning her for polite, and rather moderate, disagreement does give every impression that this blog, and by extension ID supporters, cannot withstand rational, evidence-based criticism. Refusing to accept Maya's challenge to discuss the issue in a neutral venue reinforces this impression. Maya's challenge was to any moderator and ID supporter here. It looks like a great opportunity to get your refutations of her arguments into a public forum once and for all. Is no one here willing or able to meet the challenge of a mere grad student?dcost
December 8, 2007
December
12
Dec
8
08
2007
08:24 AM
8
08
24
AM
PDT
Hi Patrick: On a site structure note . . . In re 87 [HT CS]:
The main issue is that Maya was not making any positive contribution to the discussion on UD. Instead she was parroting talking points that I’ve seen phrased by many Darwinists . . . . I understand that many people will come to UD as a Darwinist and they have questions that will be very common.
IMO, this underscores the need for an ID FAQ and forum, as part of that still upcoming resources section -- and with prominent links on the facing page. Maybe, a link to the IDEA centre site with its FAQ's and primers? [NB: I am having a web page access problem so I can't actually load these pages though they come up in Google -- yahoo I can't get just now either. Oh, the joys of living in paradise . . . at least, I can just walk down to a beach and watch the moon and stars and waters.] Just a thought . . . GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 8, 2007
December
12
Dec
8
08
2007
02:13 AM
2
02
13
AM
PDT
Actually, TO and PT moderate as well and have banned ID proponents, so I fail to see how it's neutral in that sense, either. But that's beside the point. The main issue is that Maya was not making any positive contribution to the discussion on UD. Instead she was parroting talking points that I've seen phrased by many Darwinists. Talking points that are unfortunate distortions of the issues as Jerry showed in comment #77. How many times must these type of objections be answered? https://uncommondescent.com/comment-policy/ Now moderation on UD is very subjective. I consider myself to have been a "noncommittal Darwinist" at one point. As in, I believed it due to the education system asserting it, and not because I strongly supported it, which is probably the case of many ID proponents on UD. I understand that many people will come to UD as a Darwinist and they have questions that will be very common. So I'm forced to judge intent. Is this person honestly interested in discussing ID (and is unintentionally raising objections that have been answered, without realizing it) or is this person incapable of having reasonable discourse? I judged Maya to be the latter. I DO read all comments in the moderation queue, so she's free to try and prove me wrong that she's incapable of such. BTW, that is how "I" see things. Bill, Denyse, Dave, etc. probably have their own views on the best moderation practices. It's not something we've discussed all too much, although if I'm uncertain about something I'll forward it to Bill. But I can objectively say that I'm probably the most lenient moderator on UD, so if you manage to raise my ire you probably deserve it.Patrick
December 7, 2007
December
12
Dec
7
07
2007
09:59 PM
9
09
59
PM
PDT
"I think it odd she even considers TO “neutral”." It's neutral in the sense that anyone can post there and no one can prevent another party in the discussion from participating. "The problem is not that ID cannot stand up to scrutiny. The problem is that her objections have been phrased by others many times in the past and answered aplenty." That should make it very easy for you to counter her arguments.dcost
December 7, 2007
December
12
Dec
7
07
2007
01:50 PM
1
01
50
PM
PDT
dcost, I'm not interested in debating Maya, especially if it's over commonly refuted arguments she can find with google's "searchterm site:www.uncommondescent.com". If anyone else wants to that is up to them. Maya claims:
Do you realize how poorly this reflects on the quality of your arguments? You have to resort to censoring a grad student because your claims cannot stand up to even minimal scrutiny. ... I publicly challenge Patrick and any other Uncommon Descent moderators or posters to defend their claims in a neutral venue. I suggest the talk.origins Usenet newsgroup
I think it odd she even considers TO "neutral". I certainly don't have the gall to claim that of UD, which prominently displays its purpose in the top-right corner. The problem is not that ID cannot stand up to scrutiny. The problem is that her objections have been phrased by others many times in the past and answered aplenty. As I already said "if a previously banned person tries to post information that is new and/or relevant I will let that through." Several other Darwinists has made the exact same assertion she did: that the HIV example somehow defeats the main argument in Edge of Evolution. These Darwinists have asserted, but they have yet to explain why this assertion is true even when asked to. If Maya wants to attempt it that would be great. If she begins to make positive contributions to UD I may even lift her ban.Patrick
December 7, 2007
December
12
Dec
7
07
2007
01:24 PM
1
01
24
PM
PDT
Thanks but the Dover fiasco didn’t do anything to ID. It was obvious that ID wasn’t on trial and ID wasn’t ruled against. The only letdown was that the judge never heard a word about ID. He obviously has selective hearing- as does the ACLU and all anti-IDists.
Maybe you're thinking of another Dover trial?
I would also bet that Gonzalez is a better scientist than any other in his department. I say that because anyone who thinks that sheer dumb luck (the anti-ID materialistic position) is scientific is a whack-job.
Then why bother at all with trying to appeal his tenure denial? Some of the comments on this blog regarding his peers at ISU are incredibly vicious and petty. If the consensus here is that his co-workers are such lying idiots, why would he even WANT to accept a tenured position? It's depressing to see this blog, which should be a shining beacon of truth, turned into a playground for vindictive and petty thugs. Yes, Joseph, I'm talking about you.SailorMon
December 7, 2007
December
12
Dec
7
07
2007
12:15 PM
12
12
15
PM
PDT
Maya may be banned here, but she's calling Patrick out: http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/47a6ab72f0dc0bf1 She's got a point -- are any of you willing to debate with her in a venue where neither of you can censor the other? Cue the High Plains Drifter soundtrack....dcost
December 7, 2007
December
12
Dec
7
07
2007
11:05 AM
11
11
05
AM
PDT
And who says that IDists can't make predictions! I made 2: 1- Maya, nor any other anti-IDist, would put forth a prediction based on their anti-ID materialistic position 2- Maya would claim victory even when it is obvious she is clue-less. everybody join in: Nahnahnah nah, nahnahnah nah, heyheyhey good bye... c-ya wouldn't want to b-yaJoseph
December 6, 2007
December
12
Dec
6
06
2007
11:55 AM
11
11
55
AM
PDT
That's exactly what she's claiming.
It would be better to take all her objections and discuss them
That would be worth doing if it wasn't the same set of objections that keep popping up every couple weeks (or even days) and then are shot down. As a moderator on UD I have to read EVERYTHING and quite frankly her objections were a waste of time. I swear these people have a list of objections they're copying and pasting. The funny thing is, I verbally commented to a friend that she'd probably make several different objections after being banned...and that's exactly what she wrote. We have google. There is no excuse. She can look in the archives for her commonly refuted objections. On top of that, the "quality" of her objections were about the same as John Kwok on Amazon; as in, intellectually dishonest. So overall I didn't see a point in keeping her around. BTW, if a previously banned person tries to post information that is new and/or relevant I will let that through. Ignoring new evidence due to the source would be a folly. But, as I said all I was seeing from Maya was commonly refuted arguments.Patrick
December 6, 2007
December
12
Dec
6
06
2007
09:09 AM
9
09
09
AM
PDT
Oops, I missed Patrick's comment saying "adios". It's too bad because now she can act like some kind of martyr, run to all the anti-ID sites and say she was banned because she was handing it to us but we just could not take it. It is very telling that in almost 150 years the best evos can come up with is ONE new protein-to-protein binding site. And that isn't even in a living organism...Joseph
December 6, 2007
December
12
Dec
6
06
2007
07:33 AM
7
07
33
AM
PDT
Wasn't Maya banned?jerry
December 6, 2007
December
12
Dec
6
06
2007
06:23 AM
6
06
23
AM
PDT
I take it that Maya will not produce even ONE prediction borne from the anti-ID materialistic position. Thank you Maya for demonstrating, by your silence on this, that the anti-ID materialistic position is isolated from predictive power and therefore also isolated from testability. IOW it ain't scientific.Joseph
December 6, 2007
December
12
Dec
6
06
2007
04:36 AM
4
04
36
AM
PDT
Maya, you said, "That’s not the case, according to Michael Behe. In Dover he admitted, under oath, that a definition of science that included ID would also include astrology. Is Behe incorrect?" The fact that you used this quote without consulting what Behe meant by it demonstrate an insincerity or naivety. It is absurd to think that Behe considers astrology as science today but in the middle ages and somewhat later it was taken very seriously and it eventually merged with astronomy, another science of its day which turned out to be more valid. Through the ages people formed all sorts of theories and explored them systematically and some of them were nonsense and some of them proved very fruitful but the process was scientific. Here is a quote from Wikipedia "Astrology and astronomy were often indistinguishable before the modern era, with the desire for predictive and divinatory knowledge one of the primary motivating factors for astronomical observation. Astronomy began to diverge from astrology after a period of gradual separation from the Renaissance up until the 18th century." Alchemy which many also consider a pseudoscience led to chemistry and nuclear physics proved alchemy was justified because all the elements are made from other elements except for hydrogen. It just requires a super nova for most but even on earth we have some elements deteriorating into others. So go back to the well and see what else you can come up with.jerry
December 5, 2007
December
12
Dec
5
05
2007
06:15 PM
6
06
15
PM
PDT
Maya, What one person says does not represent what others believe especially in a brand new discipline. We should have Paul come here to discuss his comments rather than have you quote one individual. There are some obvious implications of ID versus the current paradigm. For example, one substantial difference between ID and neo Darwinism is that ID predicts a lot of life will be a top down phenomena as opposed to a bottom up phenomena as predicted by neo Darwinism. ID does not deny neo Darwinism or say that neo Darwinism does not work but only that it is limited. So that any speciation or variations will either be a more limited genome or if there are expansions to the genome it will be trivial in terms of evolutionary biology and the species will essentially be the same. For example, canidae is supposed to be around for 40 million years. That is plenty of time for lots of novelty to develop and also lots of time for the genome to splinter off by loss of function in the genome. To the point that we have breeds of dogs selected artificially that have much narrower genomes than the current grey wolf but can actually breed with the grey wolf. Are the various species outside of artificially selected dogs in the canidae family examples of increased function in the genomes or are they result of loss of function in the genome as natural selection and genetic drift eliminate variation in the various populations. ID would predict the later while neo Darwinism would predict the former. So an ID research program would investigate which of these hypotheses is most consistent with the data. So ID research is going on now in evolutionary biology. It is just that if one stated these objectives the research would be killed and the researcher banished. However, if the researcher just said he or she was investigating the range of variations in the genomes of various canidae they would be able to do their research until they did the all important review under an ID or neo Darwinism alternative at which time they would be attacked and their funds withdrawn as not doing science. So there is lots of ID research going on now. It is just not labeled as such.jerry
December 5, 2007
December
12
Dec
5
05
2007
05:59 PM
5
05
59
PM
PDT
If Maya is banned then that is unfortunate. It would be better to take all her objections and discuss them with her as opposed to letting her leave a series of one liners and then being banned.jerry
December 5, 2007
December
12
Dec
5
05
2007
05:21 PM
5
05
21
PM
PDT
What, exactly, constitutes a “complex structure”? Michael Behe has admitted that a new viral protein-viral protein binding site has evolved in HIV. This resulted in new function (an ion channel), a form of complexity that Behe claimed was beyond the “Edge of Evolution”. That falsifies your prediction.
What the...did you even read what Behe wrote? He clearly said, "I explicitly pointed out in Chapter 8 of The Edge of Evolution that HIV had undergone enough mutating in past decades to form all possible viral-viral binding sites, but commented that apparently none of them had been helpful (now I know that one of them helped)." As in, this example was fully expected to be within the limitations of Darwinian mechanisms but when writing the book Behe was not aware of the example. Never mind that the discussion surrounding HIV was a small portion of the book. Why can't you people understand that simple fact; or would that require you to actually read what Behe is saying instead of regurgitating the same crud I see all the time. It's obvious at this point you have nothing left to say, so you're just lashing out with the usual talking points that are distortions of the real issues. Adios!Patrick
December 5, 2007
December
12
Dec
5
05
2007
04:44 PM
4
04
44
PM
PDT
Good for you Maya. Now how about ONE prediction made from the anti-ID materialistic position. To SailorMon- Thanks but the Dover fiasco didn't do anything to ID. It was obvious that ID wasn't on trial and ID wasn't ruled against. The only letdown was that the judge never heard a word about ID. He obviously has selective hearing- as does the ACLU and all anti-IDists. I would also bet that Gonzalez is a better scientist than any other in his department. I say that because anyone who thinks that sheer dumb luck (the anti-ID materialistic position) is scientific is a whack-job.Joseph
December 5, 2007
December
12
Dec
5
05
2007
04:32 PM
4
04
32
PM
PDT
jerry wrote: "One has to be an extreme state of denial to say that ID is not science. First of all it is very hard to define just what science is but ID uses all the tools of modern science and does make predictions." Where, then, is the theory? Paul Nelson doesn't think there is one. Where is the evidence that E. O. Wilson asks for? The easiest way to silence the ID critics is to state the theory clearly, show how it explains the evidence better than the alternatives, make the falsifiable predictions, and do the experiments to test those predictions. jerry continues: "Use what ever criteria you want for science and ID will fit in to that criteria." That's not the case, according to Michael Behe. In Dover he admitted, under oath, that a definition of science that included ID would also include astrology. Is Behe incorrect?Maya
December 5, 2007
December
12
Dec
5
05
2007
04:30 PM
4
04
30
PM
PDT
DaveScot wrote: "ID predicts that no evolution of complex structures will occur by chance & necessity within the temporal and geographical constraints imposed by the earth due to the statistical improbabilities involved. What is the ID theory that predicts this? The reason I ask is the following statement from a senior member of the Discovery Institute, Paul Nelson: "Easily the biggest challenge facing the ID community is to develop a full-fledged theory of biological design. We don’t have such a theory right now, and that’s a problem." DaveScot continues: "ID can be falsified by the observation of a single complex structure built by mechanisms of chance & necessity." What, exactly, constitutes a "complex structure"? Michael Behe has admitted that a new viral protein-viral protein binding site has evolved in HIV. This resulted in new function (an ion channel), a form of complexity that Behe claimed was beyond the "Edge of Evolution". That falsifies your prediction. DaveScot continues again: "This prediction appears to have been confirmed by the observation of P.falciparum over the last 50 years during which time it replicated billions of trillions of times, which represents more opportunities for mutation than the entire sequence of reptile-to-mammal evolution, and nothing beyond trivial changes were observed." Could you please provide a cite with more details? For example, how was this experiment performed? By whom? what selection pressures were the populations subjected to? What calculations support the claim of "more opportunities for mutation than the entire sequence of reptile-to-mammal evolution"?Maya
December 5, 2007
December
12
Dec
5
05
2007
04:18 PM
4
04
18
PM
PDT
Joseph wrote: "To get a grant you have to account for the money. Perhaps Gonzalez isn’t as good of a liar as some others are." That's a very serious claim to make about a group of working scientists. Do you have any evidence that the faculty of the ISU astronomy department are liars? As for grad students- why not blame the student? IOW why can’t it be the students were not up to the task? Or perhaps the students realized, as I did, that being a scientist really stinks because of all the extraneous nonsensical BS that comes with the job. And yet, the students being advised by other faculty members did complete their doctoral work in the usual timeframes. "Do you have anything to say about the floowing?: Yet in 2006, the year he was up for tenure, Gonzalez published more total articles than all other tenured ISU astronomers." That claim is not supported by the evidence. The summary of Gonzalez output shows only three papers published in refereed journals in 2006.Maya
December 5, 2007
December
12
Dec
5
05
2007
04:14 PM
4
04
14
PM
PDT
DLH wrote "For the relative importance of Gonzalez’s work, compare Gonzalez’s citations against all others within his own department (not other departments). See: Guillermo Gonzalez Has Highest Normalized Citation Count among ISU Astronomers for Publications Since 2001" Many of the papers published in 2001 and 2002 are based on work done by Gonzalez at his previous place of employment. The ISU tenure decision is based only on what he accomplished while at ISU. Seven refereed papers total for 2004, 2005, and 2006 is not impressive output. "Gonzales also had the second highest life time citation record in his department." Again, only the work done at ISU, including whether or not that work indicates that he will be productive in the future, counts toward the tenure decision.Maya
December 5, 2007
December
12
Dec
5
05
2007
04:13 PM
4
04
13
PM
PDT
Maya, One has to be an extreme state of denial to say that ID is not science. First of all it is very hard to define just what science is but ID uses all the tools of modern science and does make predictions. Use what ever criteria you want for science and ID will fit in to that criteria. We believe it fits in better than the current paradigm of evolutionary biology which is neo Darwinism which is one of story telling and creating likely scenarios. This sounds more like the IBM commercials appearing on the recent football games spoofing someone call Ideation Man. Now I do not know what field your work is in but what criteria that is being used in your field could be applied to ID. And to say that someone who wrote a textbook in the field is not fit as an educator is one of the more absurd accusations yet. I would wonder about the credibility and sincerity of someone who said that.jerry
December 5, 2007
December
12
Dec
5
05
2007
03:53 PM
3
03
53
PM
PDT
Ms. Maya, If you don't mind me asking, what is your particular field of study?bornagain77
December 5, 2007
December
12
Dec
5
05
2007
03:22 PM
3
03
22
PM
PDT
Joseph wrote: "Was Maya banned or did she tuck tail and run?" Neither. She is a grad student and has been studying and working. Oh yes, and referring to herself in the third person. pwieland wrote: "I am taken aback that a professor such as Maya would resort to name calling in defense of this controversy." Thanks for the promotion, but I am still a lowly grad student. I would like you to point out exactly where I resorted to name calling, though, please. As far as I remember, I have done no such thing.Maya
December 5, 2007
December
12
Dec
5
05
2007
02:52 PM
2
02
52
PM
PDT
Oops I also wanted the evidence that demonstrated the 1.3 million was real: Do you have a link that shows what each astronomer brought in? (comment 46)
Source The linked article doesn't list what the other faculty pulled in for grants, but it does state the average for the department. I think Mr. Luskin is sharp enough to have picked up on that information if it wasn't accurate. I do question his ability to accurately describe the funding needs of astronomy programs though. I really don't think he knows what he's talking about, research is expensive and that is reflected in the grants that his peers have received. Also of interest is Professor Gonzalez's admission:
But Gonzalez said during his interview with The Tribune last summer that he was told, beginning with his three-year tenure review in 2004, that he needed to bring in more research funding. He added he heard the same message in reviews every year since, as well.
He knew for years that he wasn't performing up to snuff in that area and it was an ongoing concern for his tenure review. I'll say it again, we should be careful in our support of Gonzalez as there is ample evidence that he didn't meet the requirements for acquiring tenure. This has the potential of being another huge letdown for ID, just like the Dover decision was.SailorMon
December 5, 2007
December
12
Dec
5
05
2007
02:41 PM
2
02
41
PM
PDT
Thanks Patrick Perhaps I rushed to judgement when I said that she "tuck tail and run". However I do understand that it will take quite a bit if time to furnish one prediction made by the anti-ID materialistic position. To see what the design inference predicts, with respect to Gonzalez, one just has to read "The Privileged Planet".Joseph
December 5, 2007
December
12
Dec
5
05
2007
08:31 AM
8
08
31
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply