Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Outsider Meddling — Skeptics Need Not Apply (or, Just Have Faith)

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Someone by the name of skeech is cluttering up UD with impervious sophistry and wasting a lot of our time.

His/her latest thesis is that “according to biologists…” there is a “credible possibility that small incremental changes could have developed massive increases in biological information in a short time — followed by stasis.”

So, skeech assures us that “biologists” are universally agreed upon this proposition?

How about this and this?

Darwinian evolutionary theory is a boiling, ever-changing, amorphous cloud that is impenetrable and completely immune to critical analytical scrutiny. It was designed that way, for obvious reasons.

It should be noted that the “scientific” consensus in the early 20th century was the steady-state universe theory (that is, the universe is eternal, and has no beginning and no end). Those subscribing to the consensus were wrong (including Albert Einstein), and they put up a big fight until the end, when the evidence became overwhelming.

Continental drift theory was also ridiculed.

Wegener was the first to use the phrase “continental drift” (1912, 1915)… During Wegener’s lifetime, his theory of continental drift was severely attacked by leading geologists, who viewed him as an outsider meddling in their field.

The criticism we always hear from Darwinists is: Outsiders are not permitted to question the dogma, because they don’t understand the subtleties and the “science.”

The essence of Darwinian philosophy, presented as “science,” takes about 15 minutes to learn and understand: Random variation and natural selection explain everything — never mind the details, we’ll make up stories later to explain away the anomalies, contradictions, and improbabilities.

In the meantime, just have faith, and don’t ask any annoying questions.

This is not science, it’s religious indoctrination.

Comments
Clive writes, "There is a difference between being banned and moderated. I can show you the difference if you would like to see it." I'm curious -- which is it when a post in response to the larger comment of which this is a part is deleted by an administrator without explanation, and in what appears to be a violation of the stated moderation policy? I have noted the deletion for the record on antievo.David Kellogg
April 6, 2009
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JayM, What is the evidence that demonstrates Tiki is something other than a fish? Please be specific- it wasn't at the site you linked to- all it said was this fish has some "weird"(for a fish) characteristics.Joseph
April 6, 2009
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JayM, Tiki is not a prediction borne from natural selection. It is not a prediction borne from random variations. Predictions borne from common descent should NOT be confused nor conflated with predictions made from the ToE.Joseph
April 6, 2009
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Refuting nested hierarchies for dummies: David Kellogg linked to UC Berkley on Nested Hierarchy. Take a good look at the diagram. See those connecting lines? Every point on each line would be a transitional organism. Now the question is- if all of thoise transtionals were alive today would we be able to put the organisms into nice neat nested boxes (sets)? No. We would have a mess of boxes with very little order. Will Alan or David understand that simple point? Nope. And therein lies the problem with evolutionists.Joseph
April 6, 2009
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Joseph @167
Tiktaalik in particular, and the hundreds of thousands of peer-reviewed papers in the primary literature in general, completely disprove your claim.
Tiki is not a prediction made from the theory.
Yes, it very clearly is. Continuing to ignore theclearly documented history of how Tiktaalik was found doesn't make it go away.
Transitionals from fish to land animal is a prediction borne from the premise that if land animals evolved from fish we should see some transitionals showing this.
So evolutionary theory does make predictions. Thank you for admitting that your previous claim was completely wrong.
However there isn’t anything which demonstrates Tiki is anything but a fish.
Well, nothing aside from the actual evidence documented here. (Keep hitting that next button to see how your claim is repeatedly refuted.) JJJayM
April 6, 2009
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David Kellogg:
Evolution predicts that living things will be related to one another in what scientists refer to as nested hierarchies—rather like nested boxes.
Right but if all the transitionals were still alive there wouldn't be any nested boxes. Darwin understood this and that is why he pointed to extinction events to make the distinctions observed. IOW it isn't evolution/ common descent that produces a nested hierarchy it is well timed extinction events which produced the distinct nested boxes we observe today.Joseph
April 6, 2009
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JayM:
Your claim was that modern evolutionary theory doesn’t predict anything.
It can predict change and/ or stasis. It cannot predict anything specifically for all the reasons I provided.
Tiktaalik in particular, and the hundreds of thousands of peer-reviewed papers in the primary literature in general, completely disprove your claim.
Tiki is not a prediction made from the theory. Transitionals from fish to land animal is a prediction borne from the premise that if land animals evolved from fish we should see some transitionals showing this. However there isn't anything which demonstrates Tiki is anything but a fish. It's "transitional" status is only in the minds of those who need it to be a transitional.Joseph
April 6, 2009
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David Kellogg:
(Onlookers might be interested in Joseph’s earlier trouble with “cumulative climbing,” uncorrected even when definitively refuted.)
You are a legend in your own mind. There isn't any mountain climbers who use the term "cumulative climbing" as a mechanism for what they do. Not one. IOW all you are doing is proving my point- tat you cannot understand the contxt of a discussion.Joseph
April 6, 2009
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David Kellogg, Why is it that YOU have not addressed the refutations of te premise that evolution produces a nested hierarchy? Could it be because neither you nor the site you linked to understand nested hierarchies? Could it be that you do not understand that evolution does NOT have a direction? Dr Denton is also a scientist. So why don't you adress his refutation of the premise?Joseph
April 6, 2009
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Alan, YOU can't even form an argument as to why evolution would produce a nested hierarchy. YOU can't even address the refutation for that premise. And YOUR position doesn't offer anything in a practical way. IOW you appear to not be able to understand anything. And that means no one can have an educated discussion with you.Joseph
April 6, 2009
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Joe, I think the problem that arises from attempting any sort of exchange with you is amply demonstrated by following the links to your blog and reading some of the exchanges. You appear not to wish to undestand what a nested hierarchy is. OK. It is not important for me. I am more interested in finding out what intelligent design may eventually have to offer in any practical way.Alan Fox
April 6, 2009
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JayM, "3- There is no way to predict what would be selected for at any point in time. Reproductive success. is selected for." Reproductive success is selected for, what is selected for is reproductive success by reproducing successfully. This is a circle, and isn't an explanation, it's affirming the premise as the conclusion.Clive Hayden
April 5, 2009
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JayM, "I agree. Being subject to moderation here means that it is nearly impossible to participate in the discussions. When posts don’t appear for 12 to 24 hours, the discussion has moved on. “Moderation” here and “censorship” are distinctions without a difference." There is a difference between being banned and moderated. I can show you the difference if you would like to see it. "This type of behavior gives the impression that the “new, open” moderation policy discussed earlier is a sham and that UD does not, in fact, support real debate about the issues. What are the moderators afraid of?" 'This type of behavior" is in "reaction" to other types of behavior that justify the moderation to begin with. There are lots of people that aren't moderated because they've never done anything to earn it. This type of behavior is in reaction, not pro-action, please remember that. UD is an open dialogue for folks that don't have to be moderated because of their past behavior. I'm not afraid of anything.Clive Hayden
April 5, 2009
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John A. Davison @79. I know it's frustrating to be on moderation, but give it time. The same slow grinding wheel that reversed its policy and put you back on this site is the same slow grinding wheel that will likely take you off moderation, provided you meet UD's conditions. What can I tell you. Life isn't always fair. There are times when you have to bite the bullet and adjust to the environment in which you find yourself, much like organisms must adjust to their environment. In any case, you can easily "expose" intellectual cowards for what they are without calling attention to the fact that they are cowards. Most important, you can refute their arguments, and, from what I have observed, you can refute with uncommon authority. (It isn't the pseudo-name that defines the coward, it is his unwillinness to face the truth and his proclivity to obfuscate, evade, and deceive.) If, on occasion, you cannot stop yourself and find that you must allude to a courage-challenged Darwinist by name, use the old Joe Louis tactic ("You can run but you can't hide.") That's about as hard as you can push it at the level of the individual. Speaking about Darwininists in general, you can be a little more expressive.StephenB
April 5, 2009
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Alan Fox:
The ToE posits an unbroken chain of descent through a hierarchy of organisms who were all at least viable enough to produce viable offspring.
Make up your mind Alan. "An unbroken chain of descent" is not a nested hierarchy and will not form a nested hierarchy. So which is it?Joseph
April 5, 2009
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Alan Fox:
Nonetheless. ToE predicts common descent in a nested hierarchy.
No it does not. Nested hierarchy is based on CHARACTERISTICS not desecnt. And nested hierarchies do not reflect descent. Ya see nested hierarchies have a directuion- one of ADDITIVE characteristics. Evolution isn’t like that. Common descent isn’t like that. As a matter of fact all we could expect out of evolution/ common descent is a LINEAGE. Lineages do NOT form a nested hierarchy. What part of that don't you understand?
Well done for linking to your own blog in #151.
No need to reinvent perfectly good refutations.
I think the Discovery Insitute should consider using your input.
They are smart enough to realize that NH has been refuted pertaining to evolution. Dr Denton book "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis", released in the late '80s destroyed the argument that evolution/ common descent leads to a nested hierarchy. That some evos refuse to acknowledge said refutation doesn't matter one bit to the DI. Only the willfully ignorant cling to such an idea.Joseph
April 5, 2009
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LoL!! Only a fool thinks that evolution would expect a nested hierarchy!
Nonetheless. ToE predicts common descent in a nested hierarchy. This prediction can be disproved by (to use the old example) finding a rabbit fossil in pre-Cambrian strata. Well done for linking to your own blog in #151. I think the Discovery Insitute should consider using your input.Alan Fox
April 5, 2009
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----David Kellogg: The question is not whether Gnostic texts (and others — there are plenty of non-Gnostic non-canonical early texts) can be reconciled with doctrinal Christianity. The question was whether they have any historical relevance." You seem to forget the context in which my original point was made. Someone (Sal Gal) attached Gnostic writings to the teachings of Jesus, for which no rational defense can be made. You defended his position and called on Ehman and Pagels as exponents of Gnostic credibility. Now now you seem to be saying that none of this is relevant. In fact, all heresies have enormous historical significance. Most early church documents are responses to heresies, each one calculated to fine tune a doctrine or dogma that has either been misunderstood or mischarachterized. ----" And as I have pointed out, serious historical scholars take them seriously not as doctrine (which is not a historical question). When someone tells me what they "didn't" mean while neglecting to tell me what they "did" mean, I have to wonder about why they are leaving out that information. You originally stated that these men took the writings of the Gnostic gospels seriously. That suggests that the relavant passages were worthy of serious consideration in some context, presumably as reasonable interpretations of Christianity. Now you are suggesting that you didn't mean that at all. Please! ----"You can call Bart Ehrman and Elaine Pagels a lot of things — evangelical scholars don’t like them one bit — but it’s a little silly to call them “uninformed.” As a point of exegetical theology, "evil matter" cannot be reconciled with Christianity. Insofar as Ehrman and Pagels are defending Gnosticism, they are defending that which is incompatible with Christian belief. Under the circumstances, only three options exist: [a] They are uninformed, [b] They cannot reason in the abstract or [c] they are being disingenous. I chose [a] as the most generous alternative, but I will be happy to go with "deceiving heretics" if you like."StephenB
April 4, 2009
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Joseph, you write [15]:
Only a fool thinks that evolution would expect a nested hierarchy!
Do you think that the University of California Museum of Paleontology is made up of fools?
Evolution predicts that living things will be related to one another in what scientists refer to as nested hierarchies—rather like nested boxes.
For the record, I disagree with hazel slightly. It's not that you don't understand nested hierarchies. It's that you don't understand how scientists use the term. As is frequently the case, you are fixated on a word which you insist has to be used the way you say, no matter how people in the appropriate field use it. (Onlookers might be interested in Joseph's earlier trouble with "cumulative climbing," uncorrected even when definitively refuted.)David Kellogg
April 4, 2009
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Nested Hierarchy and evolution another refutation Nested Hierarchy and Universal Common Descent- Shattering the MythJoseph
April 4, 2009
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hazel, I understand perfectly well what nested hierarchy means. I also understand common descent and evolution. Ya see if nested hierarchy was an expected outcome of evolution/ common descent then my scenario would produce a nested hierarchy. As for nested hierarchy and characteristics, I covered that also: Only a fool thinks that evolution would expect a nested hierarchy! Ya see nested hierarchies have a directuion- one of ADDITIVE characteristics. Evolution isn’t like that. Common descent isn’t like that. As a matter of fact all we could expect out of evolution/ common descent is a LINEAGE. Lineages do NOT form a nested hierarchy.Joseph
April 4, 2009
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Joseph @146
I will say it again and you can keep ignoring it:
I didn't ignore anything. I pointed out a counterexample that completely disproves your claim that evolutionary theory does not make testable predictions. You're wrong.
1- There is no way to predcit what mutations will occur.
Mutations are random with respect to fitness. Why would you expect to be able to predict which will occur?
2- There is no way to predict what those mutations will effect
That's because they are random.
3- There is no way to predict what would be selected fpr at any point in time.
Reproductive success. is selected for.
4- We do NOT have any idea what makes an organism what it is- therefor we can’t predict what organisms will appear at any point in time.
That doesn't even make sense. Your claim was that modern evolutionary theory doesn't predict anything. Tiktaalik in particular, and the hundreds of thousands of peer-reviewed papers in the primary literature in general, completely disprove your claim. JJJayM
April 4, 2009
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JohnADavison @143
Now go right ahead and hold this message for as long as you choose for what you call “moderation.” I call it censorship!
I agree. Being subject to moderation here means that it is nearly impossible to participate in the discussions. When posts don't appear for 12 to 24 hours, the discussion has moved on. "Moderation" here and "censorship" are distinctions without a difference. This type of behavior gives the impression that the "new, open" moderation policy discussed earlier is a sham and that UD does not, in fact, support real debate about the issues. What are the moderators afraid of? JJJayM
April 4, 2009
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You don't understand what nested hierarchy means, Joseph. It refers to characteristics, not populations. Nested hierarchies of characteristics include organisms that are now extinct, for instance.hazel
April 4, 2009
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More on nested hierarchy- Common descent: Start with a population. We will call it population A. Then say after some generations pop A gives rise to two other populations- A1 and A2. Now in order for a nested hierarchy to exist pop A must consist of and contain populations A1 and A2. Yet pop A does not as both A1 and A2 are SEPARATE populations. Will Alan understand any of that? Doubtful.Joseph
April 4, 2009
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Alan Fox, The alleged tree of life has been toppled The Phylogenetic Tree Topples?Joseph
April 4, 2009
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JayM, I will say it again and you can keep ignoring it: 1- There is no way to predcit what mutations will occur. 2- There is no way to predict what those mutations will effect 3- There is no way to predict what would be selected fpr at any point in time. 4- We do NOT have any idea what makes an organism what it is- therefor we can't predict what organisms will appear at any point in time. By Jay's logic the Bible is completely true because science has shown that the universe had a beginning just as the Bible said.Joseph
April 4, 2009
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The ToE did not predict Tiktaalik. It doesn’t even predict fish. It doesn’t predict anything.
The ToE posits an unbroken chain of descent through a hierarchy of organisms who were all at least viable enough to produce viable offspring.
Please provide the reference. It predicts that evidence of ancestral forms such as fossils like Tiktaalik roseae will be consistent with a nested hierarchy. I am sure I do not need to remind Joe about nested hierarchies. LoL!! Only a fool thinks that evolution would expect a nested hierarchy! Ya see nested hierarchies have a directuion- one of ADDITIVE characteristics. Evolution isn't like that. Common descent isn't like that. As a matter of fact all we could expect out of evolution/ common descent is a LINEAGE. Lineages do NOT form a nested hierarchy. IOW Alan once again you have proven that you don't know anything.Joseph
April 4, 2009
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Khan:
Evolutionary theory predicted that there would be fish-land animal transitional species in late Devonian aged rocks.
Please provide the reference. Ya see seeing there is no way to predict what mutations will occur at any point in time and seeing there isn't any way to predict what will be selected for at any point in time, tghere isn't any such prediction. As a matter oif fact no one knows what made Tiki what it is! that prediction was put to the test through 5 years of hard digging and was eventually shown correct w the discovery of tiktaalik. But Tiki isn't a transitional. It is a fish- pure and simple.Joseph
April 4, 2009
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It is like pulling teeth to be heard here at Uncommon Descent. Stephen B asked me a question in message # 79 and I am finally allowed to respond in #143. I suspect Stephen B has forgotten all about the question he asked. We shall soon see. It is hard to believe isn't it?JohnADavison
April 4, 2009
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