Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Outsider Meddling — Skeptics Need Not Apply (or, Just Have Faith)

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Someone by the name of skeech is cluttering up UD with impervious sophistry and wasting a lot of our time.

His/her latest thesis is that “according to biologists…” there is a “credible possibility that small incremental changes could have developed massive increases in biological information in a short time — followed by stasis.”

So, skeech assures us that “biologists” are universally agreed upon this proposition?

How about this and this?

Darwinian evolutionary theory is a boiling, ever-changing, amorphous cloud that is impenetrable and completely immune to critical analytical scrutiny. It was designed that way, for obvious reasons.

It should be noted that the “scientific” consensus in the early 20th century was the steady-state universe theory (that is, the universe is eternal, and has no beginning and no end). Those subscribing to the consensus were wrong (including Albert Einstein), and they put up a big fight until the end, when the evidence became overwhelming.

Continental drift theory was also ridiculed.

Wegener was the first to use the phrase “continental drift” (1912, 1915)… During Wegener’s lifetime, his theory of continental drift was severely attacked by leading geologists, who viewed him as an outsider meddling in their field.

The criticism we always hear from Darwinists is: Outsiders are not permitted to question the dogma, because they don’t understand the subtleties and the “science.”

The essence of Darwinian philosophy, presented as “science,” takes about 15 minutes to learn and understand: Random variation and natural selection explain everything — never mind the details, we’ll make up stories later to explain away the anomalies, contradictions, and improbabilities.

In the meantime, just have faith, and don’t ask any annoying questions.

This is not science, it’s religious indoctrination.

Comments
1- Evolution does NOT have a direction. We agree with that. 2- Nested Hierarchy requires a direction- one of additive characteristics. Agree or disagree?Joseph
April 8, 2009
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Ladies and gentlemen, observe [199] the limbic system in action.David Kellogg
April 8, 2009
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madsen:
I should have said that IDers disagree on whether common descent predicts nested hierarchies.
I would love to hear the reasoning behind the premise that common descent predicts a nested hierarchy given that nested hierarchies are determined by defined characteristics which do NOT include "who's your daddy/ mommy?".Joseph
April 8, 2009
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David Kellogg:
Joseph [184], yes, evolution doesn’t have a direction.
Part 2- Do nested hierarchies have a direction?
It does have products, however, and it does leave a partial history.
OK, so what?
The predictions of evolution are about how the classificaiton of those products relates to the organization of that history.
Nonsense. Nested hierarchies require distinct categories which are not obtainable via a lineage or lineages. Transitional organisms blur all lines of disticntion due to their very nature. Again Dr Denton puts down a thorough refutation of the premise in his book "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis". Also the VAST majority of the fossil record, greater than 95%, is of marine inverts- which is to be expected knowing what we do about fossilization. In that vast majority we do NOT see a pattern of universal common descent. Also we now know that the alleged "tree of life" is total crap. That alone demolishes the premise of nested hierarchies being derived from paths to the LUCA. And David it is obvious that your brain emerged very late. I can tell by the total lack of understanding displayed to the points made. That lack of understanding is evinced by your avoidance of those points.Joseph
April 8, 2009
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Joseph,
It unfolded by design, which is in direct opposition to unfolding via genetic accidents.
And there are several different, mutually contradictory elaborations on how the designing was actually carried out: frontloading, periodic tinkering by the designer over time, the designer poofing everything into existence a few thousand years ago, etc.
Also it isn’t that NH exists or not, rather it is that evolution would not be expected to produce such a pattern.
Ok, I misinterpreted your statements on NH. I should have said that IDers disagree on whether common descent predicts nested hierarchies.madsen
April 8, 2009
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Alan Fox (#188),
Find a Cambrian rabbit and ToE is in trouble.
I'm trying to understand this statement. First, are you saying that the lack of ancestors would be a problem, or that the going from complex to simple would be a problem, or something else? What precisely is the problem that a Cambrian rabbit poses to the ToE? Second, I've heard the Cambrian rabbit quoted widely. Would a Pennsylvanian rabbit do as well? How about a Jurassic rabbit? How about Triassic shore birds? Would Precambrian plants qualify? Can you expand upon your "Precambrian rabbit" a little? Finally, if someone claimed to find a Cambrian rabbit, would you immediately give up the ToE? Or would you spend a great deal of time trying to prove that A. it was not a rabbit, B. It was not Precambrian, or C. The ToE can handle it very nicely after all, thank you? In other words, is your theory truly falsifiable, or did you just throw something out that you think and hope you'll never see to keep critics of the ToE off of your back?Paul Giem
April 8, 2009
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Jerry said: "ID holds that at various times in the past new genetic information was introduced into life forms by an intelligence. Some hold that it may have been only once at the origin of life itself and some hypothesize it was more than one time and instances occurred later. Who, when, why or how are not part of the ID discussion but could represent interesting side areas on their own." Can you suggest experiments and/or observations that could in principle refute the proposition that at various times in the past new genetic information was introduced into life forms by an intelligence? Can you do so without specifying anything about the who, when, why or how? I am interested in this because, for me at least, the question whether ID is science or metaphysics largely hinges on this.faded_Glory
April 8, 2009
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Correction [193]: "the order in which species should appear corresponds pretty well to the order of history."David Kellogg
April 8, 2009
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Joseph, I said that the mammalian brain emerged pretty late, and it's true. But things can be lost. For example, when I examine the repetitive, emotional, almost instinct-driven style of your posts, I suspect that the actions of your typing fingers may bypass the neocortex entirely and go straight to the limbic system. :-)David Kellogg
April 8, 2009
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Joseph [184], yes, evolution doesn't have a direction. It does have products, however, and it does leave a partial history. The predictions of evolution are about how the classificaiton of those products relates to the organization of that history. Nobody's saying that nothing is lost as organisms evolve. But the new functions that do emerge do so in an ordered pattern: the order in which species appear corresponds pretty well to the order of history. The ability of animals to move on land is one such characteristic. Lo and behold, the record shows that land animals came later than water-dwelling animals. We should see the characteristics of mammals (hair, live birth, milk) emerge at a certain time, and not before. Lo and behold, we do. We should see a complex forebrain emerge relatively late, and we do. We should see the complex forebrain architecture emerge still later, and we do. Nested hierarchy in evolution doesn't mean that nothing is lost. It means that the things that evolution says came late due to the history suggested by the tree of life do, in fact, come late when we examine the historical record. Indeed, that is what we find. That's the significance of the "rabbit in the Cambrian."David Kellogg
April 8, 2009
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madsen:
Part of the problem here is that there is no single “ID position” on how life unfolded.
It unfolded by design, which is in direct opposition to unfolding via genetic accidents. Also it isn't that NH exists or not, rather it is that evolution would not be expected to produce such a pattern.Joseph
April 8, 2009
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jerry,
Given ID’s position on how life probably unfolded, a nested hierarchy leading to an intelligent organism was probably part of the design.
Part of the problem here is that there is no single "ID position" on how life unfolded. Some ID theorists accept common descent and some don't; some accept that nested hierarchies exist and some don't; some believe the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, while some fall into the YEC camp.madsen
April 8, 2009
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Alan Fox:
Well, if you look at the paths that must link all organisms on Earth via their parents, parent’s parents, and so on, assuming evolution by common descent with modification is true, you will find these paths all connect back to the last universal common ancestor. These paths take the form of a nested hierarchy.
That is false and demonstrates an utter lack of understanding pertaining to nested hierarchies. I noticed you didn't answer my question. Is that because by answering it you will prove my points?
So far, evidence from fossils, DNA comparison and such has not refuted the ToE.
It hasn't supported it. Try again: Do nested hierarchies have a direction? I say they do- they have a direction of additive characteristics. Do you agree or disagree? Answer please that way we can tell whether or not you understand nested hierarchies.Joseph
April 8, 2009
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"Find a Cambrian rabbit and ToE is in trouble." What a stupid comment. The debate is over how new information was released into life over the ages. With such a comment you are dealing with a non sequitur farcical interpretation of life and ID does not hold anything like that. ID holds that at various times in the past new genetic information was introduced into life forms by an intelligence. Some hold that it may have been only once at the origin of life itself and some hypothesize it was more than one time and instances occurred later. Who, when, why or how are not part of the ID discussion but could represent interesting side areas on their own. So a rabbit in the Cambrian remark is the sign of a seriously misinformed person and an indication that there is no serious answer to the ID position. If one had valid critiques, one would not resort to such remarks. Given ID's position on how life probably unfolded, a nested hierarchy leading to an intelligent organism was probably part of the design. So Alan Fox, thank you for making the ID position by not being able to make a coherent statement on an alternative. You and the rest of the anti ID people are welcome to try to come up with a coherent position but after 3 1/2 years I have yet to see one offered. But keep trying we need your attempts to continually make the ID case easier.jerry
April 8, 2009
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Well, if you look at the paths that must link all organisms on Earth via their parents, parent's parents, and so on, assuming evolution by common descent with modification is true, you will find these paths all connect back to the last universal common ancestor. These paths take the form of a nested hierarchy. So far, evidence from fossils, DNA comparison and such has not refuted the ToE. Find a Cambrian rabbit and ToE is in trouble.Alan Fox
April 8, 2009
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Joseph @185
Note that Tiktaalik is just one, albeit very impressive, prediction of modern evolutionary theory.
It is NOT a prediction based on random variation and it is NOT a prediction based on natural selection.
You have a very limited view and understanding of modern evolutionary theory.
So what, exactly, is tiki a “prediction” of?
If you read the page I've repeatedly referenced you would know that Tiktaalik is a transitional form between fish and tetrapods predicted to exist based on previously discovered fish and tetrapod fossils dated between 390-380 mya and 363 mya respectively. Since evolutionary theory maintains that change occurs incrementally, the transitional form was predicted to be found in sediments dated between those ages. That's exactly where Tiktaalik was found. Further, Tiktaalik's characteristics are transitional between fish and tetrapods. Go to the site for more details. The bottom line is that your claim that modern evolutionary theory does not make predictions is blatantly incorrect.
All I need to do is look at diseases. If the ToE were truly predictive then we would be able to successfully fight all diseases.
What a strange claim. How do you get from common descent with modification, with variation provided by mutations that are random with respect to fitness, to the idea that we should be able to fight all diseases? JJJayM
April 8, 2009
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Alan Fox, Do nested hierarchies have a direction? I say they do- they have a direction of additive characteristics. Do you agree or disagree?Joseph
April 8, 2009
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Joe says something I agree with:
Evolution does NOT have a direction.
Alan Fox
April 8, 2009
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JayM:
Note that Tiktaalik is just one, albeit very impressive, prediction of modern evolutionary theory.
It is NOT a prediction based on random variation and it is NOT a prediction based on natural selection. So what, exactly, is tiki a "prediction" of?
In order to maintain your ridiculous claim that MET is not a predictive theory, you need to ignore the hundreds of thousands of peer-reviewed papers in the primary literature.
All I need to do is look at diseases. If the ToE were truly predictive then we would be able to successfully fight all diseases. And all you would have to do is to present one prediction based on random variation and/ or natural selection.Joseph
April 8, 2009
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Once again for david Kellogg: 1- Evolution does NOT have a direction. 2- Nested Hierarchy requires a direction- one of additive characteristics. 3- Therefor only a fool would say evolution produces a nested hierarchy. What part of that don't you understand?Joseph
April 8, 2009
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David Kellogg:
Joseph, I’m not interested in refuting that premise.
You can't.
I refuted a different claim: your claim about what evolutionary scientists say evolution predicts.
It doesn't predict NH.
By your logic, all the scientists who say it does predict a nested hierarchy are fools.
And I supported that claim. YOU ignore that supporting reason.
Whether they understand nested hierarchy better than you or not, the fact is that they say evolution predicts this.
But it doesn't predict it for the reasons provided. The reasons YOU keep ignoring. You think your ignorance is some sort of refutation. Ya see it doesn't matter if scientists say "this predicts that" when in fact it doesn't. But you won't understand that because you appear incapable of understanding anythiung.
As with “cumulative climbing,” which you said climbers don’t use even after after I showed they did, no number of counter-examples will be sufficient.
Now you are lying. You didn't quote any climbers using the term "cumulative climbing" as the mechanism they use to go up a mountain.Joseph
April 8, 2009
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Joseph, I'm not interested in refuting that premise. I refuted a different claim: your claim about what evolutionary scientists say evolution predicts. By your logic, all the scientists who say it does predict a nested hierarchy are fools. Whether they understand nested hierarchy better than you or not, the fact is that they say evolution predicts this. Therefore your premise that they don't it refuted. Not that you will admit this. As with "cumulative climbing," which you said climbers don't use even after after I showed they did, no number of counter-examples will be sufficient.David Kellogg
April 8, 2009
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David Kellogg is now free to post at will? Great perhaps he will try to answer the refutation of the premise that evolution produces a nested hierarchy.Joseph
April 8, 2009
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Hermagoras, aka David Kellogg, "I’m curious — which is it when a post in response to the larger comment of which this is a part is deleted by an administrator without explanation, and in what appears to be a violation of the stated moderation policy?" That is a moderation. A banning means every part of all posts are not approved. And thanks for making that note at antievo, where people are surely to be balanced about the moderation here :) sarcasm intended. And yes, I took you out of the moderation pool, you've been respectful, and we can tolerate bad arguments here at UD.Clive Hayden
April 7, 2009
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David, My apologies for not getting back to you. It appears you been busy anyway :) "DATCG [114], your rather long diatribe against the non-canonical writings about Jesus are rather strange." Why? Other than I rambled a bit? First it was misleading. There is no evidence to suggest Christ stated the lines Sal Gal said was "attributed" to him in the writings of Thomas. There are very few scholars that give it any credence as a serious work related to Christ or his disciples outside of organizations like Jesus Seminar and Dan Brown. Dan has given lectures with the same people. I brought him up because of his deception much like that of the Jesus Seminar. Scholars who take the non-canonical writings seriously are quite plentiful, and are not limited to the Jesus Seminar folks: Bart Ehrman and Elaine Pagels come to mind. And when you say, "seriously" are you stating that Ehrman and Pagels have determine they should be canonical? There are several ways to discredit such scholarship. Besides dating, style, etc., you can always point to the Old Testament. The writings of Nag Hamadi documents or Gnostic "gospels" that claim authority do not match any of Christ teachings with that of the Old Testament. Yeshua ben Yosef was raised a Jew, a Rabbi and did not make up new ideas or statements and definitions or philosophy outside the Old Testament Doctrine. Every word he spoke was straight from Old Testament. Whereas the gnostic "gospels" are not related at all in majority of text. Christ stated not one Yod shall be changed from the Torah, the Psalms or the Prophets. The gnostic "gospels" change with the wind varying on Pagan Platonic Philosophy and Greek influences. The original disciples students refuted Gnosticism as heretical. Paganism and incompatible with the Judeo-Christian teachings even before Biblical Canon was solidified centuries later. Gnostic believers were not included as believers in Christ. They had their own sects and were not affiliated with any disciples of Christ. The attempt to use a heretical document as valid statements of Christ is therefore misleading. It was a strawman argument. Since Christ did not state what Sal Gal attributed to him by the gnostic writings of some unknown author.DATCG
April 7, 2009
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“While hierarchic schemes correspond beautifully with the typological model of nature, the relationship between evolution and hierarchical systems is curiously ambiguous. Ever since 1859 it has been traditional for evolutionary biologists to claim that the hierarchic pattern of nature provides support for the idea of organics evolution. Yet, direct evidence for evolution only resides in the existence of unambiguous sequential arrangements, and these are never present in ordered hierarchic schemes.”- Denton page 131 of "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis"
But again I doubt Kellogg will understand that basic fact. It is also worth repeating that nested hierarchy was FIRST used as evidence for a common design and all evos did when they took over was to replace archetype with common ancestor:
One would expect a priori that such a complete change of the philosophical bias of classification would result in a radical change of classification, but this was by no means the case. There was hardly and change in method before and after Darwin, except that "archetype" was replaced by the common ancestor.-- Ernst Mayr
Simpson echoed those comments:
From their classifications alone, it is practically impossible to tell whether zoologists of the middle decades of the nineteenth century were evolutionists or not. The common ancestor was at first, and in most cases, just as hypothetical as the archetype, and the methods of inference were much the same for both, so that classification continued to develop with no immediate evidence of the revolution in principles….the hierarchy looked the same as before even if it meant something totally different.
IOW nested hierarchy was and is used as evidence for Common Design.Joseph
April 7, 2009
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So why does David Kellogg avoid the arguments against evolution forming a nested hierarchy? Is it because he does not understand evolution nor nested hierarchy? I say it is. However: Nested hierarchies have a direction- For example in the nested hierarchy of living organisms we have the animal kingdom. To be placed in the animal kingdom an organism must have all of the criteria of an animal. For example:
All members of the Animalia are multicellular (eukaryotes), and all are heterotrophs (that is, they rely directly or indirectly on other organisms for their nourishment). Most ingest food and digest it in an internal cavity. Animal cells lack the rigid cell walls that characterize plant cells. The bodies of most animals (all except sponges) are made up of cells organized into tissues, each tissue specialized to some degree to perform specific functions.
The next level (after kingdom) is the phyla. Phyla have all the characteristics of the kingdom PLUS other criteria. For example one phylum under the Kingdom Animalia, is Chordata. Chordates have all the characteristics of the Kingdom PLUS the following:
Chordates are defined as organisms that possess a structure called a notochord, at least during some part of their development. The notochord is a rod that extends most of the length of the body when it is fully developed. Lying dorsal to the gut but ventral to the central nervous system, it stiffens the body and acts as support during locomotion. Other characteristics shared by chordates include the following (from Hickman and Roberts, 1994): bilateral symmetry segmented body, including segmented muscles three germ layers and a well-developed coelom. single, dorsal, hollow nerve cord, usually with an enlarged anterior end (brain) tail projecting beyond (posterior to) the anus at some stage of development pharyngeal pouches present at some stage of development ventral heart, with dorsal and ventral blood vessels and a closed blood system complete digestive system bony or cartilaginous endoskeleton usually present.
The next level is the class. All classes have the criteria of the kingdom, plus all the criteria of its phylum PLUS the criteria of its class. This is important because it shows there is a direction- one of additive characteristics. Yet evolution does NOT have a direction. Characteristics can be lost as well as gained. And characteristics can remain stable. All of that means we should not expect a nested hierarchy with descent with modification.Joseph
April 7, 2009
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Dave Kellogg:
I think he’s saying (it’s hard to tell from his writing)
Not to people with a junior high education.
that a nested hierarchy implies that all the objects in the hierarchy must be alive at a gien.
Nope, never said nor implied such a thing. What I said was that IF all the transitionals were still alive we would NOT observe a nested hierarchy. That was very clear. Ya see nested hierarchies require distinctly defined groups. And if those transitionals were alive then we woulod not have that. <blockquoteHe can complain about how scientists use the term, but calling people fools for saying that evolution predicts a nested hierarchy seems silly. ! Evolution does NOT have a direction. 2- Nested Hierarchy requires a direction- one of additive characteristics. 3- Therefor only a fool would say evolution produces a nested hierarchy. Next Linneaus was a Creationist and hios classification was used to classify the Created Kinds. All the evos did was change "archtype" to "common ancestor" and call the scheme theirs. Also as I have stated MANY times I get my definition from A summery of the priniciples of hierarchy theory:
nested hierarchies involve levels which consist of, and contain, lower levels.
That does not happen in a LINEAGE. And a lineage is the best one can hope for given evolution/ common descent.Joseph
April 7, 2009
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Joseph @172
What is the evidence that demonstrates Tiki is something other than a fish?
You could look at the Meet Tiktaalik Rosae page already referenced. If you require further information, there is an article in Nature that explains some of the transitional features. Note that Tiktaalik is just one, albeit very impressive, prediction of modern evolutionary theory. In order to maintain your ridiculous claim that MET is not a predictive theory, you need to ignore the hundreds of thousands of peer-reviewed papers in the primary literature. JJJayM
April 6, 2009
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Ah, but now my posts show up! Wonderful, and thanks. Now, to Joseph above: I think he's saying (it's hard to tell from his writing) that a nested hierarchy implies that all the objects in the hierarchy must be alive at a gien. But frankly, that's not how scientists use the term. He can complain about how scientists use the term, but calling people fools for saying that evolution predicts a nested hierarchy seems silly. Rather than using encarta or Webster's, he should use a technical dictionary in the field. Under "classification" in the Encyclopedia of Life Sciences, we get the following:
The traditional Linnaean classification of living beings has the structure of a hierarchy, with a series of ranks (categories) to which more or less extensive groups (taxa; singular, taxon) are allocated. The number of ranks in the classification is not strictly prescribed. However, tradition has consolidated the use of a few main ranks. Additional ranks may be added, whenever required, at the lower or the upper level, or in intermediate positions, but there has always been widespread opposition to an indiscriminate multiplication of ranks. The most traditional ranks, listed here from the lowest to the highest, are the species, the genus, the family, the order, the class, the phylum (in botany, traditionally called the division) and the kingdom. Most additional ranks are identified by a prefix, e.g. subfamily, superorder. The tribe, if recognized, is subordinate to the subfamily. Below the species level, tradition is not uniform. Botanists are generally more inclined than zoologists to recognize and name infraspecific entities. As for zoology, only one rank below the species is officially recognized (the subspecies), but this rank is extensively used in some groups (e.g. mammals, birds, butterflies) and virtually ignored in others (e.g. most marine animals). As for botany, multiple infraspecific categories are recognized, but lower-level units, e.g. forms, are often named within a species that has not been articulated into higher-order species subunits such as subspecies. Peculiar categories such as the cultivar are extensively employed for the cultivated plants. Two criticisms may be levelled with respect to the Linnaean hierarchy. The first criticism is that its use takes for granted a branched topology of relationships. This may be true for very large segments of the phylogenetic history of living beings, but it is definitely not true in several instances. First, the very origin of the eukaryotic cell, hence an event at the root of a disproportionately major branch of the phylogenetic tree, is currently explained as a symbiotic event, that is, as an event determining an anastomosis among the oldest branches of the tree of life. Second, anastomoses of branches of the phylogenetic tree are produced by any successful event of hybridization, which is possibly rare in animals but is certainly common in plants. In some cases, as in the sunflower genus Helianthus, the two small genomes associated with the chloroplast and the mitochondrion, respectively, may trace a history of recent hybridization other than the one recorded in the main (nuclear) genome. In all these instances, reducing the real topology of phylogeny to the conventional branched topology of the Linnean hierarchy is hardly ‘natural’. Another criticism of the Linnaean hierarchy comes from cladistics in particular. The problem is that a phylogenetic reconstruction may only allow for the identification of nesting relationships, but cannot offer any ground to the recognition of absolute ranks. For instance, the brown bear (Ursus arctos) will turn out to be a terminal twig of the bear family (Ursids), this being in turn a branch of the Carnivores, which are nested into a larger branch Mammals, and so on. However, nothing justifies giving the same rank (say, ordinal) to Carnivores and Rodents, or – outside Mammals – to Galliforms and Coleoptera.
David Kellogg
April 6, 2009
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