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Pass me a Corona! II

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The comments to the original Pass me a Corona! post are closed. Additional comments on that topic should be posted below. I will start this post with PaV’s last comments to the prior post [i.e., everything that follows is PaV, not Barry].

Today the paywall for a Spectator USA article has been lifted. The article is by a retired pathologist who worked as a pathologist for the NHS in the UK, Dr. John Lee. I mentioned his article yesterday.

Every point he makes parallels arguments I’ve made here, though not so much the time period of death–though this, too, parallels a concern over “excess deaths.”

Here are some relevant comments:

The distinction between dying ‘with’ COVID-19 and dying ‘due to’ COVID-19 is not just splitting hairs. Consider some examples: an 87-year-old woman with dementia in a nursing home; a 79-year-old man with metastatic bladder cancer; a 29-year-old man with leukemia treated with chemotherapy; a 46-year-old woman with motor neurone disease for two years. All develop chest infections and die. All test positive for COVID-19. Yet all were vulnerable to death by chest infection from any infective cause (including the flu). COVID-19 might have been the final straw, but it has not caused their deaths.

Here’s a comment that might well be directed at the deaths we see coming out of Italy and Spain. Are these deaths due to a variety of causes but simply attributed, blindly, to the SARS-CoV-2 virus?

Next, what about the deaths? Many UK health spokespersons have been careful to repeatedly say that the numbers quoted in the UK indicate death with the virus, not death due to the virus — this matters. When giving evidence in parliament a few days ago, Prof. Neil Ferguson of Imperial College London said that he now expects fewer than 20,000 COVID-19 deaths in the UK but, importantly, two-thirds of these people would have died anyway. In other words, he suggests that the crude figure for ‘COVID deaths’ is three times higher than the number who have actually been killed by COVID-19. (Even the two-thirds figure is an estimate — it would not surprise me if the real proportion is higher.)

If we take Ferguson literally, does this mean that the actual number of deaths worldwide due to SARS-CoV-2 is not 35,000, but around 12,000? Will we ever know? The people responsible for finding this out are the same people who might have been gigantically wrong about their numbers. What would be their motivation to prove how incompetent they were?

It should be noted that there is no international standard method for attributing or recording causes of death. Also, normally, most respiratory deaths never have a specific infective cause recorded, whereas at the moment we can expect all positive COVID-19 results associated with a death to be recorded. Again, this is not splitting hairs. Imagine a population where more and more of us have already had COVID-19, and where every ill and dying patient is tested for the virus. The deaths apparently due to COVID-19, the COVID trajectory, will approach the overall death rate. It would appear that all deaths were caused by COVID-19 — would this be true? No. The severity of the epidemic would be indicated by how many extra deaths (above normal) there were overall.

Let me point out that this very problem is what has been going on now for over thirty years in the case of HIV. This is exactly how HIV/AIDS is defined. And Dr. John Lee says this is wrong. He’s a pathologist. So, Dr. Fauci, in charge of HIV/AIDS for over thirty years has been employing a definition for HIV/AIDS that is wrong, not true. Is it any wonder, then, that we are in this quandry?

Today, Fauci is quoted as saying that the number of deaths he expects from CoVid-19 is between 100,000 and 200,000. No way that is going to happen. Are the blind leading the blind?

Here’s a fresh perspective on numbers:

Let me finish with a couple of examples. Colleagues in Germany feel sure that their numbers are nearer the truth than most, because they had plenty of testing capacity ready when the pandemic struck. Currently the death rate is 0.8 percent in Germany. If we assume that about one-third of the recorded deaths are due to COVID-19 and that they have managed to test a third of all cases in the country who actually have the disease (a generous assumption), then the death rate for COVID-19 would be 0.08 percent. That might go up slightly, as a result of death lag. If we assume at present that this effect might be 25 percent (which seems generous), that would give an overall, and probably upper limit, of death rate of 0.1 percent, which is similar to seasonal flu.</blockquote. Let’s note that 0.08% is less than the mortality of seasonal flu. That’s how this entire thread started. Is the Deep State at work again?

This thread began on March 18th. Total number dead on that date: 150. Twelve days later–almost two weeks, the number is 2613. So, 2,470 people died in an almost two week period.

And how many have died of seasonal flu since Feb 28th? 4,000–as of March 19th.

We’re being had.

Comments
KF and LM, I like graphs as well, but they have to be interpreted with great caution. The Canadian case is a good example, and probably not unique. The new cases plots are currently showing a fairly rapid increase. However, knowing the situation on the ground, it took a while for them to get the testing ramped up, but not the sampling. Samples were taken rapidly but there was a backlog in the labs. The delay in reporting was as long as ten days. During this time testing capacity was being ramped. As such, the new cases reported today could have been from samples collected several days ago. The other stat used is new deaths. But these suffer from the same flaw. Some progressions are quick, and some slow. And they are not a great indication of the current rate of spread. What this means is that we are past the peak before we can detect it.Ed George
March 30, 2020
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LM, I trust, THE peak, but it may just be this peak. And yes, I find graphs very important. KFkairosfocus
March 30, 2020
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Earth to Jim, Chloroquine is being used successfully to save lives from COVID 19. That is REALITY. But I understand why you would want to deny reality.ET
March 30, 2020
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Jim, your ignorance of ID, while amusing, just proves that you are an ass. Those Darwinists can't even test their own claims.ET
March 30, 2020
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Derek Lowe has some right wing politics that I don’t always agree with, but his medical chemistry is always spot on. https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/03/29/more-on-cloroquine-azithromycin-and-on-dr-raoultJim Thibodeau
March 30, 2020
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So . . . what tests could be run to determine if COVID-19 was designed?
ID scientists just need to do a CSI calculation, duh. It has been asserted in dozens of articles and several books that CSI is the ID method for distinguishing design from not design. Biologists, and Information Theory experts have claimed that CSI is useless garbage, but all ID people need to do to determine design is to give us a good CSI calculation. If they do, it should Blow Away stupid Darwinists.Jim Thibodeau
March 30, 2020
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We are already past the peak. COVID 19 Live Updates New cases are down. The peak of sick and dying will continue to rise a bit but not for much longer.Latemarch
March 30, 2020
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Jim- One thing we know for sure is that no one will tell us how nature didit.ET
March 30, 2020
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Johns Hopkins COVID 19 dashboard interactive mapET
March 30, 2020
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Case scenario 1: SARS-Cov-2 encounters a human immune system. Selective pressures acting here: _____ Case scenario 2: SARS-Cov-2 encounters a drug synthesized using human intelligence and lots of resources. Its numbers are dramatically reduced. Selective pressures acting here: _____ Role of the intelligent agent (human):____ Tip: Consciousness is an illusion is not a valid answer. You atheists have tried it and failed miserably :) C'mon, you know it all. Explain it to the theists. We're waiting.Truthfreedom
March 30, 2020
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As of Monday, the state (California) had 1,432 hospitalized, roughly double the number from four days ago. And there are 597 people in intensive care unit beds, roughly triple the 200 who were in those beds four days ago.rhampton7
March 30, 2020
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JVL March 30, 2020 at 11:48 am Here’s another approach: if life shows signs of design and viruses are a kind of life (debatable, I know. Debate it. ) then by what criteria can you determine whether COVID-19 is designed or not?
The virus has RNA, so obviously ID Scientists will calculate the CSI and from that tell us if it’s positive for design or not. It should be a powerful, groundbreaking paper.Jim Thibodeau
March 30, 2020
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Go to church, PaV. This is all a hoax. God will protect you.MatSpirit
March 30, 2020
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Several hundred more Americans have now died from the coronavirus than died in 9/11.Jim Thibodeau
March 30, 2020
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@rhampton in a few minutes the global death toll is going to hit 37,000, and we know that’s an undercount. You are not a person I would say is being misled by propaganda.Jim Thibodeau
March 30, 2020
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Bizarrely, he seems to. This post was from earlier today. I am not sure there is any way to get through to someone who thinks the total deaths doubling four times in two weeks during is evidence that this epidemic will be relatively minor.orthomyxo
March 30, 2020
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Does PaV still believe that “we’re being had”?rhampton7
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