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Permissible errors in asserting design using the Explanatory Filter(s)

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Masters of stealth intent on concealing their actions may successfully evade the explanatory filter. But masters of self-promotion intent on making sure their intellectual property gets properly attributed find in the explanatory filter a ready friend.

Bill Dembski
Mere Creation

The Explanatory filter classifies systems or artifacts into 3 categories.

1. produced by law
2. produced by chance
3. produced neither by chance nor law (designed by definition)

Suppose we started out with the correct probability distributions. We can interpret the above statement by Bill to mean we might mistake a system as produced by chance or law when in fact it was produced by an intelligence. For example, if you had uniquely numbered fair coins, and they were arranged for you in the following way (with 1= heads, 0=tails), what would you say?

1101110010111011110001001101010111100110111101111……

Using ID procedures, in the absence of recognizing a design specification you would label the system as the product of chance, but if you recognized it as the digits of the Champernowne sequence, you’d say it is “produced neither by chance nor law and thus by definition is designed.”

Mistaking a design as the result of chance is perfectly within the framework of ID, such errors in using the Explantory Filter are acceptable (as evidenced by the quote above). For the sake of brevity, we don’t say:

produced by chance or produced by design that we mistake as chance

We merely say “chance”, with the provision that it is short hand for:

produced by chance or produced by design that we mistake as chance

The same holds true for making mistakes where we mistakenly attribute design to law.

The reliability of the filter rests on classifying things as “not chance and not law” based on an assumed probability distribution. The assumed distribution could of course be wrong, and thus the assertion of design could be wrong, but the inference relative to the assumptions is correct for “produced neither by chance nor law”. “Produced neither by chance nor law” means practically speaking “produced neither by chance nor law” according to the assumed distribution.

It does not mean the assumed distribution is correct, but it does mean the inference relative to the assumptions follows the correct deduction from the premises. This also means a design claim can be falsifiable if the assumptions are falsifiable.

So if someone says, “how do you know it is designed, you don’t have all the facts?” The correct response is, “in the ultimate sense, that may not be demonstrable, but relative to the assumptions I’m working from (which may be false assumptions), the inference of design is correct. Further, all things being equal, if I assert design on a reasonable distribution, the claim of design is always more likely to be true in the ultimate sense than the claim of mindless evolution.”

I gave an example of the design inference here:
Relevance of coin analogies to homochirality and symbolic organization in biology. The inference is correct with respect to the underlying assumptions. The underlying assumptions could be incorrect, but the deduction from the premises should be above reproach, and that’s what is meant by design inference.

NOTES

1. This discussion came up in part because Lizzie argues chance is the null (default) hypothesis for ID. I countered by saying the EF uses no null hypothesis. Any ID proponent is welcome to weigh in, but I don’t think Lizzie’s characterization is correct based on ID literature. It is true we assume chance by default if law and design are ruled out, but that’s different than saying chance is the null hypothesis.

2. Some design inferences in history were later falsified, like the craters of the moon. They looked so perfectly circular that some thought they had to be designed. That was one of the few rare cases where the product of law was mistaken for design. A meteor or rock hits the moon, it makes a circular crater. Also consider the effect of law in the Chlandi plate demonstration:
Response to Harry McCall (Chlandi plates)

3. Some will complain, “What if the design inference is wrong”, to which I respond, “Then we don’t lose much, but what if the non-design inference is wrong? What side of Pascal’s wager do you want to be on? What do you have to gain if non-design is true?”

See: If Darwinism were true, what is there to gain?

4. If you want to be an evolutionary formalist, you should say “I don’t know” in the face of uncertain probability distributions and stop trying to promote mindless evolution as “fact, fact, fact” when it is “speculation, speculation, speculation” and quit persecuting scientists and denying diplomas to students until you really know mindless evolution is true.

5. I used filter(s) in the title, various methods of rejecting the chance hypothesis may fail while others succeed. Someone with the Champernowne sequence in their EF filter library will recognize design, while others without the Champernowne sequence in the EF filter library won’t.

6. Bill Dembksi’s book The Design Inference makes clear it the inference is correct in principle based on the distributions assumed, he didn’t ever say we’ll necessarily have the correct distributions to work with. That is a Darwinist straw man, and like lots of strawman, it’s erected to make the appearance of an easy knockdown of a reasonable claim.

7. Summarizing the permissible errors of asserting design:

A. the assumptions are false (but that is true of every idea, not just ID), but all things being equal, if design is asserted, uncertainty favors the design case over the non-design case.

B. the assumptions are true, but we fail to recognize design. One example of that is the product of “Masters of Stealth” and another is the Champernowne sequence.

8. I’ve suggested (not insisted) a workable definition of “chance” is a process that maximizes uncertainty relative to the degrees of freedom of the symbols. To illustrate, maximum uncertainty implies a 50% proportion of heads in the case of coins and a 50% proportion of L-amino acids in the case of amino acids, and even less-than-50% proportions for alpha-peptide bonds in proteins/proteinoids and 3′-5′ in DNA chains.

Comments
scordova @ 67
seventrees, Thank you for the kind words. I don’t believe we’ve met before at UD. Welcome to Uncommon Descent.
Thanks. Though this is the second time I'm making a comment on your posts. I understand that you're dealing with many comments, improving the chances (or the probability) that mine does not get seen. (People are arguing over the meaning of the word "chance" now. But at least, I trust that you get it). StephenB @ 70
RD tried that one on me as well. He tried to evade the discussion about the fact that the universe came into existence by displacing it with the irrelevant question about how of the universe came into existence.
I have the impression this is going to strike a long discussion again.seventrees
December 26, 2013
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Fifthmonarchyman, Thanks for telepathically prompting me. Otherwise, I'd just write whatever chance ung neuidces87y wepfjefe [f eo!William J Murray
December 26, 2013
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seventrees recalls an earlier discussion: NetResearchGuy @ 21
You say nothing has been observed that violates known laws of physics, and clearly that is false. The existence of the universe itself violates the laws of conservation of mass and energy.
RDFish @ 30
Clearly that is false? I must have missed the announcement than anyone has figured out how the universe came to exist!
RD tried that one on me as well. He tried to evade the discussion about the fact that the universe came into existence by displacing it with the irrelevant question about how of the universe came into existence. Some might call it "rigor." I call it sophistry.StephenB
December 26, 2013
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Here is an example where Design-Met will be rejected by the Explanatory Filter as a non-design-EF. Suppose we started out with 500 fair coins heads on a table as part of the design of human designer. The human designer starts cleaning up the table in a careful way an putting the coins in coin wrappers to preserve their ordering. He's just about done, and he gets interrupted and he leave 1 coin on the table. It is heads. Let us suppose we also have video tape evidence (on the home surveillance camera) the human designer had to flip that coin from tails to heads to make his original 500 fair coin design. Now, if we looked at that single remaining coin on the table, we would say, according to the explanatory filter, the orientation of that coin is not-designed, when in fact, if the orientation of the coin was in the metaphysical sense designed. ID proponents believe design-EF is a proper subset of design-met. I think that is generally correct, and any pathological possible counterexamples are not of importance to me personally. It's good enough, as far as biology goes, to make me believe God made life. In the world of investment and professional gambling, there is what is known as certainty equivalent which defines situations where it is better to take the risk of sometimes being wrong than retreating to the safety of always being right. http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/certaintyequivalent.asp I view the claims related to the EF, to ID, in terms of Pascal's wager and certainty equivalence. I've criticized the Darwinists for the irrationality of their wagering and certainty equivalence models. It's not that I cavalierly dismiss permissible errors in the EF, but I've come to believe wherever we've made a wrong inference, the cost of doing so is zero in terms of the effect on human affairs, but the benefit of being right, even if by coincidence, is possibly far greater than the cost being wrong. Thus on a benefit-to-cost ratio, ID is a superior theory to mindless origin.scordova
December 26, 2013
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The line of argument I was going for regardin AI was this. Suppose for the sake of argument: 1. a pre-biotic soup is an AI system 2. Darwinian selection is an AI system 3. a prokaryotic cell is an AI system 4. a coin ordering robot is an AI system AI systems are constraint propagators. Unless they connect to an outside information source and download some software to extend their capabilities, the extent of what they can construct is limited. An AI coin ordering robot, unless it is also programmed to construct space shuttles, won't build space shuttles. Darwinian evolution, unless it is programmed to evolve a prokaryote to a eukaryotic multicellular complex human won't evolve a eukaryotic multicellular complex human. One can even grant for the sake of argument that AI is form of Intelligence, it doesn't negate the problem of evolving the kind of complexity we see in life, and it doesn't negate the OOL problem. Thus, I think a source of information outside the known universe was the source of the "download" of information to life. This suggests to me, "God did it". But that is my personal view, and the OP was meant to identify permissible errors in the Explanatory Filter.scordova
December 26, 2013
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seventrees, Thank you for the kind words. I don't believe we've met before at UD. Welcome to Uncommon Descent.scordova
December 26, 2013
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Box @57, I am intrigued by your discussion with WJM. For what it’s worth, here is my take: First, I think definitions are in order. In order to keep things as simple as possible, I will restrict my discussion to the realm of human activity. The mind is a non-material and rational faculty of soul. The brain is a physical bodily organ (albeit the noblest of all bodily organs and the most magnificent design in the universe). If anyone else defines those terms differently, then I would have to follow their arguments from their definitions in order to evaluate them. Since, by my definition, the brain exists as physical organ made solely of matter, and since matter cannot get outside of itself, the brain cannot be responsible for or its own arrangement (design) nor can it be responsible for or design anything else. Being composed of matter, the brain is a slave of two masters: The mind leads it from one side by originating whatever thoughts and concepts that it processes, and the laws of nature direct it from the other side as with any other bodily organ. I would offer this metaphor: The mind is the driver of an automobile, the control system (steering, brakes, and accelerator) is the brain, and the remaining parts are the body. With this analysis, we can clearly understand how each element places limitations on the other, but we can also understand that only the driver (which is the immaterial person) can direct the vehicle to a specified destination (design anything). Again, using my definitions, (withholding judgment about how others might define their terms), and with the understanding that this is a philosophical analysis (ID science does not presume to make this claim) I would agree with your conclusion:
IOW in order to produce a designed outcome there has to be a non-physical element involved in producing that outcome.
StephenB
December 26, 2013
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Typical debate with an anti-ID advocate: ID advocate: There are certain things that exist that are best explained by intelligent designed. Anti-ID advocate: Whoa! Hold up there, fella. “Explained”, in science, means “caused by”. Intelligent design doesn’t by itself “cause” anything. ID advocate: What I meant is that teleology is required to generate certain things, like a functioning battleship. It can’t come about by chance. Anti-ID advocate: What do you mean “by chance”? “By” means to cause. Are you claiming that chance causes things to happen? ID advocate: Of course not. Chance, design and necessity are the three fundamental categories of causation used to characterize the outcomes of various processes and mechanisms. You’re taking objection with colloquialisms that are commonly used in mainstream science and debate. Here are some examples of peer-reviewed, published papers that use these same colloquialisms. Anti-ID advocate: Those aren’t real scientists! ....
That's why I don't defend ID by talking about ID, I defend ID by talking about design-EF.
The principal advantage of characterizing design as the complement of regularity and chance is that it avoids committing itself to a doctrine of intelligent agency…Nevertheless, it is useful to separate design from theories of intelligence and intelligent agency. Bill Dembski
Bill was wise to see, by separating D from ID, the heart of the matter is focused on. Recall Barry and I did not ask Nick Matzke if 500 fair coins heads configuration is designed, we only asked if he believed chance could be an explanation. We shut Nick down within about 20 comments among the 3 of us. Otherwise, the debate evolves as WJM outlines above, and it will never end, exactly what the Darwinists would prefer. Regarding RDFish, he, like me is a stickler for rigor. I don't take offense in his criticisms of ID. In fact, Matzke's meltdown over the 500 fair coins was due to the simplicity of the question we posed to Nick, and the simplicity of the question was influenced by RDFish's insistence on rigor in how ID proponents state their case. RDFish and I used to be on quite hostile terms until we began to communicate more over time. I don't lump him in with our typical detractors like KeithS or Thornton at TSZ. It was probably alarming to my ID colleagues that I took RDFish's side on some topics. He, like me, has been interested in Artificial Intelligence, so its no coincidence I understand some of his concerns. Artificial Intelligence is a highly materialistic view of Intelligence, so I can understand his revulsion at the insistence ID implies a conscious intelligence. You could see that in this exchange:
A coin ordering robot is deterministic. It can be argued it is a law-like deterministic machine…That’s actually an important point that has escaped most. It might worth making a separate discussion of the topic.
Yes indeed, Sal! Cheers, RDFish
I suggested, given that, we let AI be a form of Intelligence, but that didn't go over well here at UD. :-) No wonder Bill suggested separating Design from doctrines of Intelligence! I'm a D-proponent, not just an ID-proponent.scordova
December 26, 2013
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Greetings everyone. Sal, I applaud you for distinguishing between the two forms of design, considering RDFish's discussions with you. To me, it is too clear for even a person who is not acquainted with academic discussions. I crave to do such. Keep on. Something I noticed while reading some of the few posts above. I do not think it is out of topic for this as it was started by RDFish. NetResearchGuy @ 21
You say nothing has been observed that violates known laws of physics, and clearly that is false. The existence of the universe itself violates the laws of conservation of mass and energy.
RDFish @ 30
Clearly that is false? I must have missed the announcement than anyone has figured out how the universe came to exist!
From Wikipedia:
1st Law of Thermodynamics: The law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system is constant; energy can be transformed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed.
RDFish, the universe coming to existence is the problem. His claim will only be false if matter/energy in itself has always existed (in other words, eternal).seventrees
December 26, 2013
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Hey WJM, Ive come to the conclusion that you are my smarter more articulate doppelganger so instead of commenting repeatedly here I'm going to project a silent telepathic dito in your direction after every post you make. It will serve as my own private data compression device and save tons of bandwidth. ;-) peacefifthmonarchyman
December 26, 2013
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Box said IOW in order to produce a designed outcome there has to be a non-physical element involved in producing that outcome. I say, I'm sure that RDfish would say that what we perceive as a designed outcome "emerges" from a purely physical cause. The problem with that conclusion is that it is based entirely on faith. He has absolutely no evidence that the nonmaterial can come from the material. He would probably point to things like snowflakes and say "see look at how pretty intricate patterns emerge from a few simple rules". Not realizing that it's exactly things like snowflakes that the filter is designed to filter out. This is another example of his selective hyperskepticism when he does not like what he sees he closes his eyes tightly and demands infallibility before he will proceed an inch but if likes an idea he jumps blindly into the abyss with no positive evidence at all. peacefifthmonarchyman
December 26, 2013
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Box, I'm just saying it's a separate argument as to whether or not non-physical is necessary to produce design outcomes. IMO, the typical post here produces complex, specified information that is well beyond the grasp of the computing power of the entire physical universe to acquire. After all, wat is meant by the term "physical"? Does it include the quantum substrate? If the quantum substrate is a field of potentials until observation collapses that potential into actualities, I'm not sure what the term "physical" even means. Is gravity physical as a thing in and of itself? Even if one insists the brain is what causes battleships, and insists that the brain is purely physical, that doesn't change the fact that "the brain" cannot be a chance/necessity system (or, rather, that it is implausible that it is). You asked how I would respond to a naturalist who claimed that brains caused battleships, and brains were physical systems, and as such battleships were the result of chance/necessity. That would be how I answer them - their reasoning is so flawed it must be tossed back into the mine it was chipped out of. Unless they are assuming their conclusion by definitional fiat - meaning, they define physical as necessarily chance/necessity systems, and so because the brain IS physical, and because it causes battleships the battleship must be the product of chance/necessity - there is no reason to insist that "physical" necessarily means "chance/necessity".William J Murray
December 26, 2013
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KF: go ahead :)William J Murray
December 26, 2013
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If we know all elements involved in producing an outcome – from the first bubbles of the multiverse to the present day – and each and every one of those elements are purely physical, doesn’t that necessarily mean that the outcome must be within the scope of the chance/necessity category of causations?
That's determinism, which not an necessary aspect of what "physical" means.
IOW in order to produce a designed outcome there has to be a non-physical element involved in producing that outcome.
Nope. I mean, I believe there is, but the term "physical" doesn't inherently imply "determined". That would be a separate metaphysical attachment. Physical things exist; physical things - whether there is any non-physical help or not - produce design outcomes. Whether there is anything non-physical involved is really irrelevant to the point that the brain cannot be a chance/necessity system. That may be because something non-physical is involved (like, say, information or mind), or it may not, but IMO that's a whole different argument than the one that reaches the conclusion that the brain (as shorthand for "what generates a battleship") cannot be a chance/necessity system.William J Murray
December 26, 2013
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WJM: You have 24 hours to promote your comment in 43 above as an original post or I will. I have already appended it to my own IDF 21 here. KFkairosfocus
December 26, 2013
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WJM #56: The idea that “physical” necessarily means “chance/necessity” is a metaphysical commitment not entailed by either the definition of “physical” or “chance/necessity”. “Necessity” is a characteristic description of physical processes/mechanisms and/or outcomes. So is “chance”. So is “design”. Whether something is physical or not is entirely irrelevant to the question of if it produces output best characterized as designed.
If we know all elements involved in producing an outcome – from the first bubbles of the multiverse to the present day - and each and every one of those elements are purely physical, doesn’t that necessarily mean that the outcome must be within the scope of the chance/necessity category of causations? IOW in order to produce a designed outcome there has to be a non-physical element involved in producing that outcome.Box
December 26, 2013
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Box, The idea that "physical" necessarily means "chance/necessity" is a metaphysical commitment not entailed by either the definition of "physical" or "chance/necessity". "Necessity" is a characteristic description of physical processes/mechanisms and/or outcomes. So is "chance". So is "design". Whether something is physical or not is entirely irrelevant to the question of if it produces output best characterized as designed.William J Murray
December 25, 2013
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Box: The naturalist assumes that the brain is purely physical and produces all so called ‘mental’ processes. From these it follows that by definition all (so called) mental processes are caused by chance/necessity.
WJM: That’s flawed logic, because physicality doesn’t necessarily imply chance/necessity in and of itself.
William, you are trying to tell me something which I'm not able to grasp. I hope you can help me. Maybe I've got the context wrong. A purely physical brain obeys the laws of nature and is bound by causal closure (physical effects have only physical causes), so all it produces should be categorized as within the scope of the chance/necessity category of causations, right?Box
December 25, 2013
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1. What is it exactly about those outcomes that they cannot be described in terms of chance/necessity?
The degree of their specified, functional configuration. I should say that it can be described, but it is not a plausible description.
2. The naturalist position as I see it: The naturalist assumes that the brain is purely physical and produces all so called ‘mental’ processes. From these it follows that by definition all (so called) mental processes are caused by chance/necessity.
That's flawed logic, because physicality doesn't necessarily imply chance/necessity in and of itself.
IOW – since they are produced by the brain – all (so called) mental processes are by definition within the scope of the chance/necessity category of causations.
Only if one invents a convenient definition of "physical" that isolates their particular metaphysical commitments.
Here is where I have a problem with “the brain produces outcomes that are not plausibly categorized as within the scope of the chance/necessity category of causations”. Do you not agree that this category is unacceptable for the naturalist based on his metaphysical assumptions?
Of course it is. Lots of things - including the obvious, the self evident, and the necessary - are unacceptable for the naturalist. So?William J Murray
December 25, 2013
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StephenB #51
Anti-ID advocate: Yes, because neurophysiology has proven that brains design battleships and computers.
SB #51: As you seem to suspect, neurophysiology has not proven that the brain designs battleships and computers. Science shows only that the brain is affected by or involved in the process. To be affected by or involved with a process is not necessarily to be the cause of that process. A computer is affected by and involved with its programs. That doesn’t mean a computer causes its programs. In both cases, a better candidate for the cause would be–(hide the kids!)—a mind.
I fully agree. Allow me to repeat your statement once more, because it is important: “neurophysiology has not proven that the brain designs battleships and computers”.Box
December 25, 2013
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WJM #50: Whether or not one assumes the brain is purely physical, the brain produces that which cannot be described in terms of chance/necessity. The “physicality” of the brain is an irrelevant consideration.
Two questions: 1. What is it exactly about those outcomes that they cannot be described in terms of chance/necessity? 2. The naturalist position as I see it: The naturalist assumes that the brain is purely physical and produces all so called 'mental' processes. From these it follows that by definition all (so called) mental processes are caused by chance/necessity. IOW - since they are produced by the brain - all (so called) mental processes are by definition within the scope of the chance/necessity category of causations. Here is where I have a problem with “the brain produces outcomes that are not plausibly categorized as within the scope of the chance/necessity category of causations”. Do you not agree that this category is unacceptable for the naturalist based on his metaphysical assumptions?Box
December 25, 2013
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Box *"Anti-ID advocate: Yes, because neurophysiology has proven that brains design battleships and computers." *"RDFish doesn’t accept intelligence and agency because he is certain of one thing ‘we think with our brain’. IOW intelligence and agency are reducible to matter." Your individual observations are excellent and, while related, each has slightly different texture. Let's take them one at a time:
Anti-ID advocate: Yes, because neurophysiology has proven that brains design battleships and computers.
As you seem to suspect, neurophysiology has not proven that the brain designs battleships and computers. Science shows only that the brain is affected by or involved in the process. To be affected by or involved with a process is not necessarily to be the cause of that process. A computer is affected by and involved with its programs. That doesn't mean a computer causes its programs. In both cases, a better candidate for the cause would be--(hide the kids!)---a mind.
RDFish doesn’t accept intelligence and agency because he is certain of one thing ‘we think with our brain’. IOW intelligence and agency are reducible to matter.
It would be much more realistic to say that we think with our minds. When we conceptualize a tree, we do not crowd a physical tree inside our brain. Even if it were possible, our head would explode in the process. On the contrary, we passively receive a non-material representation (idea) of a tree and our non-material mind then actively forms the concept of what a tree is. Put another way, only a non-material faculty (mind) can house a non-material entity (concept). It is with these same non-material concepts that we understand the meaning of a contradiction (a tree is a tree and cannot also be a river) and reason in the abstract (all trees spring up from the ground, 'a' is a tree, therefore, 'a' sprang up from the ground). The mind leads; the brain follows. In any case, the issue of physical formations is not really on the table. ID is not about playing the music; ID is about writing the score. Or, again, intelligence is not about arranging physical matter into a designed form; intelligence is about conceptualizing the designed form that is to be arranged. ID detects only the conceptualization and knows nothing about how that concept was realized.StephenB
December 25, 2013
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How do we define the scope of the chance/necessity category of causations?
By looking at what the applicable physical laws can be expected to produce concerning the interacting materials involved, including any acceptable chance deviations from predicted outcomes. The scientific plausibility of any outcome (as being within standard deviations from expected outcomes of the underlying chemical interactions) would be determined, IMO, by something like David Abel's Universal Plausibility Metric - most of us use this intuitively, I think, to make casual determinations of whether or not something falls under the design or chance/necessity category. It doesn't take a formal methodology to determine that there is no physical law or chance mechanism that will put all coins - 500 of them - heads up on a table. That takes a design process/mechanism. Brains can cause this. Therefore, brains are not properly classified as chance/necessity systems.
If there was such a category of causations – on which all parties could agree – then the debate would be over. Writing a book like Hamlet didn’t convince any naturalist.
You cannot debate with those that deny the obvious, and cannot reason with those willing to abandon reason in service of their ideology. There is no physical law or chance mechanism that will necessarily or by chance put those 500 coins heads up; therefore there is another category of causes. Materialists don't like this because of where it necessarily leads.
The naturalist assumes that 1. the brain is purely physical and 2. the brain is causing all ‘mental’ phenomena. He will never agree that creating the book Hamlet is an outcome that is not plausibly categorized as within the scope of the chance/necessity category of causations.
Whether or not one assumes the brain is purely physical, the brain produces that which cannot be described in terms of chance/necessity. The "physicality" of the brain is an irrelevant consideration.William J Murray
December 25, 2013
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If human beings were nothing more than sophisticated intelligently designed machines run by chance and necessity, would the products (Windows, etc.) of humans still be called design?JWTruthInLove
December 25, 2013
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WJM #45: The only way to determine if the brain is, or is not, a system limited (as far as we know) to producing chance/necessity outcomes is to actually look at the outcomes. Since the brain produces outcomes that are not plausibly categorized as within the scope of the chance/necessity category of causations, the brain cannot plausibly or accurately be characterized as a chance/necessity system.
How do we define the scope of the chance/necessity category of causations? If there was such a category of causations – on which all parties could agree – then the debate would be over. Writing a book like Hamlet didn’t convince any naturalist. The naturalist assumes that 1. the brain is purely physical and 2. the brain is causing all 'mental' phenomena. He will never agree that creating the book Hamlet is an outcome that is not plausibly categorized as within the scope of the chance/necessity category of causations.Box
December 25, 2013
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WJM says, they just ideologically assumed the mutations were properly characterized as “random”, and that the selection was “natural”. I say, It's much worse than that they also unilaterally decreed that their absurd (aka Reid)assumption is the only one that is allowed and ruled our universal commonsense perceptions to be anti-science and out of bounds. Then they proceed to mock and belittle anyone who would dare disagree as flatearthers and fundamentalists. It truly is a bazzario world. peacefifthmonarchyman
December 25, 2013
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So, my question is, what "null" hypothesis do/did darwinists use in order to reach their "scientific" conclusion that categorizes mutations as "random" or "chance" and selection as "natural"?William J Murray
December 25, 2013
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Box @44: That a brain causes things is entirely irrelevant to the question of if the things in question are, in principle, the plausible outcomes of chance/necessity systems, processes and mechanisms. The only way to determine if the brain is, or is not, a system limited (as far as we know) to producing chance/necessity outcomes is to actually look at the outcomes. Since the brain produces outcomes that are not plausibly categorized as within the scope of the chance/necessity category of causations, the brain cannot plausibly or accurately be characterized as a chance/necessity system. Anti-ID advocates generally just assume that if a thing physically exists, it is by default a chance/necessity object/system. When they say "brain causes battleship to exist", they have made a de facto categorical claim about the nature of the brain and what it produces. Look at these two categorical assertions in Darwinism: random or chance mutation and natural selection. How and when did Darwinists ever validate the relevant mutations as "random" or "chance", or the selection process as "natural", as opposed to artificial (intelligently guided)? Did they do it by examining the results and comparing them to the "null" - that they were intelligently orchestrated? No, they just ideologically assumed the mutations were properly characterized as "random", and that the selection was "natural". Just as your hypothetical anti-ID advocate assumes that if there is a physical brain causing something to happen, it must be explicable via chance and necessity.William J Murray
December 25, 2013
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09:23 AM
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WJM #43, excellent summary. May I ask how you handle the following reply?
ID advocate: So, you’re saying that battleship or a computer can be generated by a combination of necessity (physical laws) and chance?
Anti-ID advocate: Yes, because neurophysiology has proven that brains design battleships and computers.Box
December 25, 2013
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Typical debate with an anti-ID advocate: ID advocate: There are certain things that exist that are best explained by intelligent designed. Anti-ID advocate: Whoa! Hold up there, fella. "Explained", in science, means "caused by". Intelligent design doesn't by itself "cause" anything. ID advocate: What I meant is that teleology is required to generate certain things, like a functioning battleship. It can't come about by chance. Anti-ID advocate: What do you mean "by chance"? "By" means to cause. Are you claiming that chance causes things to happen? ID advocate: Of course not. Chance, design and necessity are the three fundamental categories of causation used to characterize the outcomes of various processes and mechanisms. You're taking objection with colloquialisms that are commonly used in mainstream science and debate. Here are some examples of peer-reviewed, published papers that use these same colloquialisms. Anti-ID advocate: Those aren't real scientists! ID advocate: Those are scientists you yourself have quoted in the past - they are mainstream Darwinists. Anti-ID advocate: Oh. Quote mining! You're quote mining! ID advocate: I'm using the quotes the same way the authors used them. Anti-ID advocate: Can you prove it? ID Advocate: It's not my job to prove my own innocence, but whatever. Look, it has been accepted for thousands of years that there are only three categories of causation - necessity, or law, chance and artifice, or design. Each category is distinct. Anti ID advocate: I have no reason to accept that design is a distinct category. ID advocate: So, you're saying that battleship or a computer can be generated by a combination of necessity (physical laws) and chance? Anti-ID advocate: Can you prove otherwise? Are you saying it's impossible? ID advocate: No, I'm saying that chance and necessity are not plausible explanations. Anti-ID advocate: "Explanation" means to "cause" a thing. Chance and necessity don't "cause" anything. ID advocate: We've already been over this. Those are shorthand ways of talking about processes and mechanisms that produce effects categorized as lawful or chance. Anti-ID advocate: Shorthand isn't good enough - we must have specific uses of terms using explicitly laid-out definitions or else debate cannot go forward. ID advocate: (insert several pages lay out specifics and definitions with citations and historical references). ID advocate: In summary, this demonstrates that mainstream scientists have long accepted that there are qualitative difference between CSI, or organized, complimentary complexity/functionaliity, and what can in principle be generated via the causal categories of chance and necessity. Only intelligent or intentional agency is known to be in principle capable of generating such phenomena. Anti-ID advocate: OMG, you can't really expect me to read and understand all of that! I don't understand the way you word things. Is English your first language? It makes my head hurt.William J Murray
December 25, 2013
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