Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Permissible errors in asserting design using the Explanatory Filter(s)

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Masters of stealth intent on concealing their actions may successfully evade the explanatory filter. But masters of self-promotion intent on making sure their intellectual property gets properly attributed find in the explanatory filter a ready friend.

Bill Dembski
Mere Creation

The Explanatory filter classifies systems or artifacts into 3 categories.

1. produced by law
2. produced by chance
3. produced neither by chance nor law (designed by definition)

Suppose we started out with the correct probability distributions. We can interpret the above statement by Bill to mean we might mistake a system as produced by chance or law when in fact it was produced by an intelligence. For example, if you had uniquely numbered fair coins, and they were arranged for you in the following way (with 1= heads, 0=tails), what would you say?

1101110010111011110001001101010111100110111101111……

Using ID procedures, in the absence of recognizing a design specification you would label the system as the product of chance, but if you recognized it as the digits of the Champernowne sequence, you’d say it is “produced neither by chance nor law and thus by definition is designed.”

Mistaking a design as the result of chance is perfectly within the framework of ID, such errors in using the Explantory Filter are acceptable (as evidenced by the quote above). For the sake of brevity, we don’t say:

produced by chance or produced by design that we mistake as chance

We merely say “chance”, with the provision that it is short hand for:

produced by chance or produced by design that we mistake as chance

The same holds true for making mistakes where we mistakenly attribute design to law.

The reliability of the filter rests on classifying things as “not chance and not law” based on an assumed probability distribution. The assumed distribution could of course be wrong, and thus the assertion of design could be wrong, but the inference relative to the assumptions is correct for “produced neither by chance nor law”. “Produced neither by chance nor law” means practically speaking “produced neither by chance nor law” according to the assumed distribution.

It does not mean the assumed distribution is correct, but it does mean the inference relative to the assumptions follows the correct deduction from the premises. This also means a design claim can be falsifiable if the assumptions are falsifiable.

So if someone says, “how do you know it is designed, you don’t have all the facts?” The correct response is, “in the ultimate sense, that may not be demonstrable, but relative to the assumptions I’m working from (which may be false assumptions), the inference of design is correct. Further, all things being equal, if I assert design on a reasonable distribution, the claim of design is always more likely to be true in the ultimate sense than the claim of mindless evolution.”

I gave an example of the design inference here:
Relevance of coin analogies to homochirality and symbolic organization in biology. The inference is correct with respect to the underlying assumptions. The underlying assumptions could be incorrect, but the deduction from the premises should be above reproach, and that’s what is meant by design inference.

NOTES

1. This discussion came up in part because Lizzie argues chance is the null (default) hypothesis for ID. I countered by saying the EF uses no null hypothesis. Any ID proponent is welcome to weigh in, but I don’t think Lizzie’s characterization is correct based on ID literature. It is true we assume chance by default if law and design are ruled out, but that’s different than saying chance is the null hypothesis.

2. Some design inferences in history were later falsified, like the craters of the moon. They looked so perfectly circular that some thought they had to be designed. That was one of the few rare cases where the product of law was mistaken for design. A meteor or rock hits the moon, it makes a circular crater. Also consider the effect of law in the Chlandi plate demonstration:
Response to Harry McCall (Chlandi plates)

3. Some will complain, “What if the design inference is wrong”, to which I respond, “Then we don’t lose much, but what if the non-design inference is wrong? What side of Pascal’s wager do you want to be on? What do you have to gain if non-design is true?”

See: If Darwinism were true, what is there to gain?

4. If you want to be an evolutionary formalist, you should say “I don’t know” in the face of uncertain probability distributions and stop trying to promote mindless evolution as “fact, fact, fact” when it is “speculation, speculation, speculation” and quit persecuting scientists and denying diplomas to students until you really know mindless evolution is true.

5. I used filter(s) in the title, various methods of rejecting the chance hypothesis may fail while others succeed. Someone with the Champernowne sequence in their EF filter library will recognize design, while others without the Champernowne sequence in the EF filter library won’t.

6. Bill Dembksi’s book The Design Inference makes clear it the inference is correct in principle based on the distributions assumed, he didn’t ever say we’ll necessarily have the correct distributions to work with. That is a Darwinist straw man, and like lots of strawman, it’s erected to make the appearance of an easy knockdown of a reasonable claim.

7. Summarizing the permissible errors of asserting design:

A. the assumptions are false (but that is true of every idea, not just ID), but all things being equal, if design is asserted, uncertainty favors the design case over the non-design case.

B. the assumptions are true, but we fail to recognize design. One example of that is the product of “Masters of Stealth” and another is the Champernowne sequence.

8. I’ve suggested (not insisted) a workable definition of “chance” is a process that maximizes uncertainty relative to the degrees of freedom of the symbols. To illustrate, maximum uncertainty implies a 50% proportion of heads in the case of coins and a 50% proportion of L-amino acids in the case of amino acids, and even less-than-50% proportions for alpha-peptide bonds in proteins/proteinoids and 3′-5′ in DNA chains.

Comments
Concept Block: When an anti-ID advocate denies the scientific validity or usefulness of a concept, like "consciousness", "intelligence", "agency", "chance", "semiotic", "code", "information", "intention", "teleological", "complex specified information", etc., in order to ignore and/or deny good arguments against their position. No concept or principle is too fundamental or necessary for the anti-ID advocate to summarily dismiss in service of their ideology, including the concept of the universality of 2+3=5 or the law of non-contradiction. You cannot have a rational debate with those willing to abandon reason in service of their ideology.William J Murray
December 25, 2013
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KF#40. Very well put. RDFish doesn't accept intelligence and agency because he is certain of one thing 'we think with our brain'. IOW intelligence and agency are reducible to matter. This thread by KF addresses this metaphysical bias. Do we have exact definitions for consciousness, agency and intelligence? Probably not, but they are fundamental to our reality. Denying them is self-referential incoherent. Besides no one knows what matter or energy is either. Fifthmonarchyman rightly points out RDFish's selective hyperskepticism which doesn't extend to naturalistic philosophy of mind inspired by neurophysiology.Box
December 25, 2013
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RDF@36: Some corrections on points: >> The problem with ID is that it makes a specious generalization from “human activity” to “intelligent agent activity”.>> 1 --> There is no good reason to equate intelligence or agency with being embodied as a human being or the like. 2 --> Long since, in this blog, and brought repeatedly to your attention, is the case of beavers and their dams. Just to begin with. >> Since we know of no other intelligent agents,>> 3 --> an assertion contrary to facts long since repeatedly brought to your attention. 4 --> it is, further plain that if any entity were to act in ways sufficiently similar to humans, we would deem them intelligent. >> we have no basis for making this generalization.>> 5 --> Patently false and a bare assertion. >> ID does not even attempt to provide an operational definition of “intelligent agent”,>> 6 --> Logical positivism, which in effect asserted that only things that were analytic or which could be defined in terms of observations and operations were meaningful, has long since collapsed due to self referential incoherence of the verification principle. 7 --> In effect, this approach is unable to satisfy its own criteria for meaning. As in, inter alia, apply this same criterion to itself in a regress and it will soon collapse into absurdity. 8 --> I know for a fact that this was repeatedly drawn to your attention, just willfully ignored. 9 --> And, after lying low for a time you are resurfacing to recirculate the same tired, worn out and cogently answered objections, trying them out on new people. For this, you should be deeply ashamed. >> and so the concept is scientifically vacuous. >> 10 --> Rubbish. You know or full well should know that intelligence and agency are reasonable, and observable. There is -- after thousands of years of relevant discussion in our civilisation and serious candidates that do not meet the strawman caricature you propose [e.g. do you really wish to beg the question that God could be intelligent or an agent?] -- no good reason to confine them to entities embodied as humans. ___________ Cho, man, do betta dan dat! KFkairosfocus
December 25, 2013
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PS: RDF, after this thread, we know already that you and many other objectors to design thought are likely to be constrained by ideological a prioris to not see agency as a real entity. But you yourself are a self-aware, conscious and intelligent agent capable of designing blog posts, and so we only need to point to an empirical reality and then point onwards to anything else capable of the like behaviour beyond the calculable limits of blind chance and mechanical necessity on the gamut of the solar system or the observed cosmos. Finding a necessary and sufficient summary definition is secondary to simply recognising from concrete examples that such things exist, and denial of that is a species of self referential absurdity. BTW, life is not capable of such a definition so far, for various reasons, does that make it vacuous scientifically? If so, why then do we have a science called biology, the scientific study of life? It is high time to move beyond definitionitis rhetorical gamesmanship, why not make that a new year resolution. And let us go off and have a happy Christmas. KFkairosfocus
December 25, 2013
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To RDFish, Be more clear in future. Multiple people independently misinterpreted you in the exact same way, so it is not our fault. I attacked an argument that you mentioned. If it wasn't something that you actually believe, then you should have said so. "My position is that ID does not say what it offers as an explanation of anything in any way that can be assessed to see if it is true or not. Not only does it not say what is responsible, or where it came from, or how it works – it doesn’t say what it can do, or (even more importantly) what it can’t do. In the context of ID, the term “intelligent agent” is fully synonymous with “something that can do anything”, which explains nothing at all." This is completely false. If it were true, then it would be impossible to investigate design outside of everyday life. SETI and archaeology wouldn't exist. Design makes predictions as to what would be seen and it makes predictions regarding what wouldn't be seen. So much has been said on both of these topics that even a passing familiarity with this site should give one a clue as to what they are. Design is in no way synonymous with "something that can do anything" because it is only appealed to as an explanation regarding things that show certain specific features. If other explanations work, the design hypothesis is useless. But design does not rely on the failure of other explanations. CSI/O is a positive case for it.Jul3s
December 25, 2013
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RDF: Please remember that in the middle ages educated people long since understood the earth to be a sphere. It casts a circular shadow on the moon in eclipses, and it is a solid object, so that alone is decisive . . . as the now often derided Aristotle had observed. And there are illuminated manuscripts that show that, beyond all doubt, my favourire has blue and brown cloak in a cartoon walking, starting from back to back, round the earth and meeting face to face on the opposite side. In 300 or so BC, its circumference was already calculated to a reasonable value. KFkairosfocus
December 25, 2013
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Hi Optimus,
1. Do you feel that consciousness is a meaningful concept?
Of course. Consciousness is that which we lose when we fall into a dreamless sleep, and regain when we awaken. We are conscious of only some of our mental activity; most of our thinking is accomplished without conscious awareness. We know that human beings can design complex artifacts, and we know that we are usually conscious of doing so (although we often solve problems when we are not consciously thinking about them), but we do not know that our consciousness is what causes those designs.
2. Do you think that all events in the universe are ultimately reducible lawlike forces?
I think we already know of events that cannot be explained by "lawlike forces", such as those involving quantum entanglement. I believe that there are fundamental aspects of reality of which we have no understanding; whether these aspects are "lawlike" could depend on what that term means.
3. How do you feel about Quastler’s association of information production with conscious activity?
I'm interested in all sorts of ideas about consciousness, but it's clear that nobody really knows if any of these ideas have any truth to them at this point.
4. In your opinion, is it possible to draw any meaningful distinction between observed events caused by human activity and events that are not caused by such activity?
Yes, of course. The problem with ID is that it makes a specious generalization from "human activity" to "intelligent agent activity". Since we know of no other intelligent agents, we have no basis for making this generalization. ID does not even attempt to provide an operational definition of "intelligent agent", and so the concept is scientifically vacuous. In the context of ID, the term "intelligent agent" is simply synonymous with "something that can do anything at all", which cannot constitute an explanation of anything. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 24, 2013
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RDFish says, So the earth is flat, stationary, and the center of the universe?....... I say, unsurprisingly You completely misunderstand my position. Tentatively accepting our common sense perceptions is only the starting point. We assume we can more or less trust our faculties this allows us to begin the process of discovery. In that process we find that sometimes our perceptions are incorrect. Trust but verify. It is a pretty simple concept but the entire scientific enterprise rests on it. If we were instead to doubt our eyes and ears from the get go we couldn't even get to the point of discovering that there is an universe out side our head. Let alone it's characteristics. As with most folks your Hyperskepticism is highly selective you trust your eyes only when you like what you see. When you are presented with a perception you don't like you close your eyes tightly and refuse to believe what you see until you are guaranteed complete infallibility. That approach, not commonsense is the ultimate science stopper. peacefifthmonarchyman
December 24, 2013
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Greetings, RDFish (Apologies for the delay) To be honest, I was rather confused upon reading your #16. If you don't mind, I've a few questions to clarify your position: 1. Do you feel that consciousness is a meaningful concept? 2. Do you think that all events in the universe are ultimately reducible lawlike forces? 3. How do you feel about Quastler's association of information production with conscious activity? 4. In your opinion, is it possible to draw any meaningful distinction between observed events caused by human activity and events that are not caused by such activity?Optimus
December 24, 2013
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RDFish @ 25:
Here is what the case is:
I think this is a pretty accurate summary of where things currently stand in the debate. But, at least in my case, ID research (i.e. Edge of Evoution) and books (esp. Dr. Meyer's) have been extremely helpful in refuting the Darwinian creation story. Standard line at this point is that to go any further would get into metaphysics or theology, but I would like to see it tried. Is our reality only a reflection of another dimension, etc.? Quantum physics or some undiscovered phenomena may point the way.Piltdown2
December 24, 2013
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Hi FMM,
I say let’s stick with common sense!!!
So the earth is flat, stationary, and the center of the universe? Tides are controlled daily by some god? Heavier objects are accelerated faster by gravity than lighter ones? The longer you play a slot machine without winning, the more likely it will pay off on the next pull? An electron exists at one location at one moment? Time passes at the same rate for all observers? Ah yes, FMM - let's just use our common sense and dispense with all of this hard science stuff. School would be so much easier! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
December 24, 2013
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(apologies for unclosed italics above, oops)RDFish
December 24, 2013
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Hi NetResearchGuy,
RDFish: Your position is that any appearance of design in nature can be traced back to the action of law and chance.
A less careless reading of my posts will reveal that is not my position at all. You would do well to actually quote what I say and respond to it, rather than debate a straw man.
Does that mean you believe that anything not explainable by chance or known physical laws (such as biological CSI) is due to the action of unknown laws science has not yet discovered?
That would depend on what you mean by "laws". What I really mean is that anything not explainable by what we currently know is not yet explained, and saying that it is "designed" does not constitute any sort of explanation. It only appears to be an explanation because of all of the hidden connotations that the term "design" carries (such as "human-like" or "conscious thought").
If so, then there are actually three possible causes for anything in your worldview: chance, law, and unknown law. But unknown law is not an explanation for anything, it is a philosophical belief based on faith.
You are correct to say that "unknown law" is not an explanation for anything. Neither is "chance", and neither is "design". None of these terms characterize something in such a way that we can tell if it is true or not; none of these terms add anything to our understanding of anything. "Darwinian evolutionary mechanisms" is an explanation, and so we are able to assess whether we have reason to believe it is true or not that Darwinian account for biological systems. (I agree with you that it doesn't).
You say nothing has been observed that violates known laws of physics, and clearly that is false. The existence of the universe itself violates the laws of conservation of mass and energy.
Clearly that is false? I must have missed the announcement than anyone has figured out how the universe came to exist! Hahaha.
Your position based on your faith in materialism...
I'm not a materialist, so again your argument is completely misguided. If you'd like to debate the issues that would be great, but if you want to pretend to debate me while making up both sides of the debate, I'm not interested.
I believe there are certain phenomena that science can’t devise an experiment to test, even in a theoretical sense, such as the origin of the universe, or the perceived mind body duality...
I agree with this with regard to our current state of knowledge, but I do not believe that we have theoretical grounds that demonstrate these phenomena will be, in principle, forever inaccessible to empirical investigation (that's just a detail, really).
...that we call consciousness.
I do not agree that consciousness is a "perceived mind/body duality", but again that's a technical point - I do know what you mean.
You may argue that we only perceive our minds as separate from our body, and it’s not reality, but I consider that an irrelevant form of circular logic, equivalent to arguing that it’s merely a perception that we have perception!
Conscious awareness is an undeniable fact that each of us experience. What I argue is that we have no idea what the necessary and sufficient conditions for consciousness are, nor whether or not conscious awareness is causal (rather than perceptual). Perhaps you're aware of investigations into these matters (by folks like Libet, Wegner, and so on)?
Your position is that because ID doesn’t attempt to reduce design inferences to specific underlying mechanisms it isn't valid...
No, you're wrong again about my position. My position is that ID does not say what it offers as an explanation of anything in any way that can be assessed to see if it is true or not. Not only does it not say what is responsible, or where it came from, or how it works - it doesn't say what it can do, or (even more importantly) what it can't do. In the context of ID, the term "intelligent agent" is fully synonymous with "something that can do anything", which explains nothing at all.
...but your materialistic worldview is equivalent in that it also doesn’t attempt to define underlying mechanisms for phenomena contradictory to known laws, which science can never make any progress towards solving.
Wrong again: I'm not a materialist. Yawn.
It instead accepts that if something is “not law and not chance” then it is “unknown law”. If your argument for materialism is dependent on the same argument for unknown and observable forces behind Design-Met then it can’t be a valid criticism — it’s self refuting.
You seem like a smart guy - let's debate this. But if you continue to pretend that I'm saying things I'm not saying, it's just not worth it. Cheers, RDFish
RDFish
December 24, 2013
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If we took the approach that our perceptions are to be doubted until we demonstrate their validity hundreds of years of philosophy have demonstrated we will never get past "I think therefore I am". It looks cool on a tee-shirt but won't pull much weight in the real world. I say let's stick with common sense!!! peacefifthmonarchyman
December 24, 2013
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A coin ordering robot is deterministic. It can be argued it is a law-like deterministic machine…That’s actually an important point that has escaped most. It might worth making a separate discussion of the topic.
Yes indeed, Sal! Cheers, RDFish
Well, ho,ho,ho. We agree on something! See you after Christmas! Have a good one! Salscordova
December 24, 2013
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netresearchguy says, You may argue that we only perceive our minds as separate from our body, and it’s not reality, but I consider that an irrelevant form of circular logic,equivalent to arguing that it’s merely a perception that we have perception! I say, Exactly, Science has proven that we are hard wired to perceive that minds and brains are not equivalent just like it has demonstrated that we are hardwired to infer design in certain instances. The burden of proof is always on those who would deny such common sense perceptions. quote: "If there are certain principles, as I think there are, which the constitution of our nature leads us to believe, and which we are under a necessity to take for granted in the common concerns of life, without being able to give a reason for them — these are what we call the principles of common sense; and what is manifestly contrary to them, is what we call absurd." end quote: Thomas Reid,...... The "absurd" is never the default position. To argue that we must abandon our common sense perceptions until their accuracy is demonstrated is simply selective hyperskepticism. It's nothing but the "brain in the vat" position of Descartes. It's possible that our perceptions are completely untrustworthy but if so science is impossible because it begins with the assumption that our perceptions are correct unless a flaw is demonstrated. peacefifthmonarchyman
December 24, 2013
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Hi Sal,
It is however good to point out design-EF does not encompass the process of making designs, it is the process of identifying designs.
Here you've simply moved the ambiguity from design (verb) to design (noun). My point is that the word "design" carries various connotations (mainly conscious awareness) that ID doesn't even attempt to support empirically.
Design is detected in a system by observing it is neither the product of law and chance. Bill said he formulated the EF to reflect ordinary practice of how humans detect designs of other humans.
It works for humans because we know what humans are and the sorts of things we do. So, in the real world, "design detection" means "detection of human activity". In ID, "design detection" doesn't mean anything at all, except "we found something we can't explain".
The formalized EF, when it has good inputs and infers design, as far as I can tell, will be good enough to detect human or human like designs as far as ordinary practice goes. I think design-EF is a subset of all designs made by intelligent agencies. There is no need to retract the connection.
If you want to say that an "intelligent agency" is "human-like", then that's fine - you've finally and actually said what you're talking about. In that case, ID is the same as SETI, and has so far come up empty-handed.
A coin ordering robot is deterministic. It can be argued it is a law-like deterministic machine...That’s actually an important point that has escaped most. It might worth making a separate discussion of the topic.
Yes indeed, Sal! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
December 24, 2013
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Hi William J Murray,
Isn’t the “null hypothesis” that materials and forces interacting according to physical law, acting through known, relevant mechanisms, can generate whatever “X” is being examined, taking into account whatever probabilistic distributions of outcomes are plausible along the way?
The term "null hypothesis" is inappropriate here (the term refers to what would be expected if there was no correlation between two phenomena). It is terribly wrong to imagine that there are two hypotheses, one called "chance" and one called "design", and that one must be correct and the other incorrect. This mistake causes no end of confusion. Here is what the case is: There are phenomena we wish to explain, such as the existence of the complex living things we observe on Earth. The word "chance" does not constitute any sort of explanation for that (nor for anything else), and neither does the word "design". If we wish to provide an actual explanation, we must say what it is we believe is responsible. Darwinists do this, specifying the particular processes they believe result in living systems. Because Darwinists actually do tell us what they think is responsible, it is possible to evaluate whether or not their claims are true. I believe (along with you) that Darwinists' explanations are not able to account for what they purport to explain. ID, however, does not say what they believe is responsible, and so there is no way to assess the truth of ID's claims. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
December 24, 2013
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Hi Jul3s,
Information isn’t physical but it is real.
Information is an abstraction, and not physical - that's correct. However, information is invariably instantiated in physical states.
Your position requires you to prove that law and chance are capable of making everything including(what is in everyday speech is referred to as) design.
No, my position requires no such thing, as a less careless reading of my posts would reveal. You would do better to quote what I actually say and respond to it, rather than to make up my argument for me and debate a straw man instead. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
December 24, 2013
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All, An unusual number posts are getting held up in the spam or mod queue for reasons unknown to me. Thanks all for your patience. Merry Christmas to all. Salscordova
December 24, 2013
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Sal
No. A deterministic robot can make objects that will pass the EF. The EF tests the simplest law and chance path, not every possible complex law and chance path.
You are quite correct about this and your point also applies to the bigger picture. ID's paradigms are simply not equipped to probe the ultimate nature of reality nor do they presume to do so. Accordingly, the scientist's inference to design involves no presuppositions about multiple realms of existence. From a philosophical perspective, a designed organism does, indeed, require dualism, but that conclusion can be arrived at only by using a different set of analytical tools. Of course, ID science is consistent with dualism, but that is not the same thing as saying that it requires or presupposes dualism. It is also important to point out that physical laws cannot design anything because they have no creative potential. They can only do what they do over and over again. Law-like regularities cannot suddenly change their nature and perform a novel or creative act.StephenB
December 24, 2013
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RDFish: Your position is that any appearance of design in nature can be traced back to the action of law and chance. Does that mean you believe that anything not explainable by chance or known physical laws (such as biological CSI) is due to the action of unknown laws science has not yet discovered? If so, then there are actually three possible causes for anything in your worldview: chance, law, and unknown law. But unknown law is not an explanation for anything, it is a philosophical belief based on faith. You say nothing has been observed that violates known laws of physics, and clearly that is false. The existence of the universe itself violates the laws of conservation of mass and energy. Your position based on your faith in materialism is that unknown physical laws existed at one point that counteracted these known laws, much in the way that lift from a bird's wings locally counteracts gravity. I believe there are certain phenomena that science can't devise an experiment to test, even in a theoretical sense, such as the origin of the universe, or the perceived mind body duality that we call consciousness. You may argue that we only perceive our minds as separate from our body, and it's not reality, but I consider that an irrelevant form of circular logic, equivalent to arguing that it's merely a perception that we have perception! Your position is that because ID doesn't attempt to reduce design inferences to specific underlying mechanisms, it isn't valid, but your materialistic worldview is equivalent in that it also doesn't attempt to define underlying mechanisms for phenomena contradictory to known laws, which science can never make any progress towards solving. It instead accepts that if something is "not law and not chance" then it is "unknown law". If your argument for materialism is dependent on the same argument for unknown and observable forces behind Design-Met then it can't be a valid criticism -- it's self refuting. NetResearchMan/GuyNetResearchGuy
December 24, 2013
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If dualism is false, then the Explanatory Filter is incoherent, because if dualism is false then nothing happens which is not the result of fixed law and/or chance. Cheers, RDFish
No. A deterministic robot can make objects that will pass the EF. The EF tests the simplest law and chance path, not every possible complex law and chance path. Example. A coin ordering robot is deterministic. It can be argued it is a law-like deterministic machine. The EF however looks for the negation of the simplest law and chance path, not all paths. That's actually an important point that has escaped most. It might worth making a separate discussion of the topic.scordova
December 24, 2013
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Well, the problem remains: Using the word “design” to mean “neither lawlike nor random” is highly misleading, since “design” has so many other mentalistic connotations.
It is however good to point out design-EF does not encompass the process of making designs, it is the process of identifying designs. Why it seems to work, I don't have much to say, and I almost don't care. The 500-fair-coins heads is extensible to enough designs in biology, that I feel the ID side has a good case in saying biology resembles man-made designs. Whether biology is designed by some intelligence in the metaphysical sense, I don't think is formally demonstrable, only circumstantially believable, and that is good enough for me, personally speaking. Design is detected in a system by observing it is neither the product of law and chance. Bill said he formulated the EF to reflect ordinary practice of how humans detect designs of other humans. The formalized EF, when it has good inputs and infers design, as far as I can tell, will be good enough to detect human or human like designs as far as ordinary practice goes. I think design-EF is a subset of all designs made by intelligent agencies. There is no need to retract the connection. As far as science goes, like the 500-fair-coins illustration, the empirical properties of systems displaying design-EF is a serious challenge to evolutionary theories. That's fair game for IDists to challenge on purely scientific (not methaphysical) grounds. I've already said, I'm ambivalent to saying whether ID scientifically proves the action of intelligence. I don't care about that. If people don't want to believe in that sort of thing, that's up to them, but that doesn't excuse them from saying something is scientific (like OOL and various evolutionary theories) are scientific facts when they are not.scordova
December 24, 2013
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Isn't the "null hypothesis" that materials and forces interacting according to physical law, acting through known, relevant mechanisms, can generate whatever "X" is being examined, taking into account whatever probabilistic distributions of outcomes are plausible along the way? Colloquially known as "the chance hypothesis"? (Probably would be better termed "the necessity & chance hypothesis".) And, isn't the alternate hypothesis that "X" is better explained as the result of deliberate, teleological manipulations of those materials and forces along the way? Colloquially known as "the design hypothesis"?William J Murray
December 24, 2013
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Information isn't physical but it is real. Your position requires you to prove that law and chance are capable of making everything including(what is in everyday speech is referred to as) design. Not only is this absurd because it contradicts all observation and countless valid inferences that are made all the time, it assumes what it tries to prove. Claiming that design is just a result of law and chance because that is what our brains result from merely begs the question.Jul3s
December 24, 2013
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Hi Optimus,
From most of what I’ve read by ID proponents, ‘design’ is used in a fairly colloquial manner to indicate the application of planning and forethought to generate something (typically some functional arrangement of matter and energy).
In that case, two things are true: First, Sal's definition needs to be changed, since "planning and forethought" has no obvious relation to "lawlike or random" (or the complement thereof). And second, ID would need to actually provide at least one tiny bit of evidence that something capable of planning was involved in generating biological CSI. To date, nobody has ever tried to do that. As for "forethought", if this concept entails consciousness (and most people would interpret the word that way), then ID is even more conjectural and in need of evidence that it doesn't even acknowledge a need for.
It doesn’t follow that a failure to elucidate the intracacies and mysteries of consciousness somehow invalidates our firsthand, empirical knowledge that conscious activity is capable of generating arrangements of matter and energy that are inaccessible to lawlike forces.
Nobody knows if consciousness is causal (as opposed to being perceptual), but there are certaintly empircal reasons to raise the question, despite what our intuitive feelings might be (cf. Libet, Wegner, Koch, and so on).
And I should note that when I say “inaccessible,” I DO NOT mean that said arrangements violate physical laws, merely that physical laws are necessary but insufficient to serve as an adequate explanation for said arrangements.
You are positing that something aside from the physical exists; in other words you are positing an expanded ontology (such as some sort of dualism).
I am not a dualist. The observation that conscious activity is real and sometimes (though not always) discernible after the fact has no necessary connection to dualistic metaphysics.
If dualism is false, then the Explanatory Filter is incoherent, because if dualism is false then nothing happens which is not the result of fixed law and/or chance. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
December 23, 2013
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A bit of honesty would help so much: ID ought to lay it’s cards on the table, admit that what “design” is supposed to mean is “libertarian free will operating in a dualistic metaphysics”, and concede that ID relies on metaphysical conjectures rather than any sort of reasoning from scientific evidence. Nothing wrong with that!
I am not a dualist. The observation that conscious activity is real and sometimes (though not always) discernible after the fact has no necessary connection to dualistic metaphysics.Optimus
December 23, 2013
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Hi littlejohn,
I think in one sense you are correct, flight is subject to the laws of nature, however, at the same time, flight requires anti-gravity measures to overcome it’s forces. Anti-gravity is a violation of the laws of gravity, is it not?
Nothing that birds or planes or hot-air baloons or anything else we know of uses any form of technology that changes or undermines the force of gravity. Because of Earth's gravity, every object in Earth's vicinity (birds, airplanes, the moon, and so on) undergoes an acceleration directly toward the center of the Earth all the time. However, other forces act on these objects as well (such as the lift generated by beating wings against the air), and to compute the movement of an object, all of the force vectors need to be combined.
Can you provide some examples of violating the laws of physics that meet your qualifications? Honestly, I am confused.
An experiment that conclusively showed a mass accelerating toward the Earth at 64 ft/sec**2 (rather than 32 ft/sec**2) without the effects of any other forces besides Earth's gravity, it would violate the laws of physics. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 23, 2013
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Hi Sal,
I agree with you the conflation and equivocations of the notions of design are deeply unfortunate. For at least the span of this thread, I’ll use the term design-EF...At least with design-EF, it is clear I’m talking about something not chance and not law.
Well, the problem remains: Using the word "design" to mean "neither lawlike nor random" is highly misleading, since "design" has so many other mentalistic connotations. And beyond that, as I've said, there is no evidence - and no way anyone can think of to gain evidence - that anything ever proceeds in a manner that is "neither random nor lawlike". Perhaps everything in the universe, including intelligent minds, operate in a law-like manner, and perhaps not - nobody knows.
The term used to be CSI, but as you can see, almost no one at UD can agree on what CSI scores should be for even simple cases.
Now you've lost me. CSI is an attempt to formalize the concept of a design - a recognizable pattern of complex form and function. It was never meant to describe the means by which the CSI came to exist. I have no trouble using the term "CSI" (although I usually just say "complex form and function" or something) - I think it is clear that some mechanisms (brains, eyeballs, flagella, and so on) are fabulously complex and demand an explanation. So CSI is just fine - the problem as I see it is using the word "design" to mean something that doesn't actually have anything to do with a conscious mind, even though that is what everyone who hears the term thinks that is what it means.
Merry Christmas to you!
Well, I'm an ignostic, so Christmas isn't my thing, but I always feel good when people say that anyway. It's such a happy holiday! Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 23, 2013
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