Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Please Take the Time to Understand Our Arguments Before You Attack Them

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The comments our Darwinist friends put up on this site never cease to amaze.  Consider, as a for instance, Kantian Naturalist’s comment that appears as comment 9 to kairosfocus’ Infographic: The science of ID post.  The post sets forth a simple summary of the case for ID, and KN responds: 

What I like about this infographic is that it makes really clear where the problem with intelligent design lies.

Here’s the argument:

(1) We observe that all As are caused by Bs. (2) Cs are similar to As in relevant respects. (3) Therefore, it is highly probable that Cs are also caused by Bs.

But this is invalid, because the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

KN has been posting on this site for years.  He is obviously an intelligent man.  He is obviously a man of good will.  I will assume, therefore, that he is attacking ID as he believes it to be and not a straw man caricature of his own making.  And that is what is so amazing.  How can an intelligent person of good will follow this site for several years and still not understand the basics of ID?  It beggars belief. 

Maybe it will help if I explain ID using the same formal structure KN has used. 

KN:

(1) We observe that all As are caused by Bs.

ID as it really is:

(1)  For all As whose provenance is actually known, the cause of A was B. 

Here “A” could be complex specified information or irreducible complexity.

B, of course, stands for “the act of an intelligent agent.”

In step 1 KN is actually not far off the mark.  I have reworded it slightly, because ID does not posit there is no possible explanation for A other than B.  ID posits that in our universal experience of A where its provenance has been actually observed, it has always arisen from B.  Now, there may be some other cause of A (Neo-Darwinian evolution – NDE – for instance), but the conclusion that NDE causes A arises from an inference not an observation.  “NDE caused A” is not just any old inference.  We would argue that it is an inference skewed by an a priori commitment to metaphysical materialism and not necessarily an unbiased evaluation of the data.  

KN:

(2) Cs are similar to As in relevant respects.

ID as it really is:

(2)  We observe A to exist within living systems. 

In (2) KN starts to go off the rails in a serious way.  Here we have the tired old “ID is nothing by an argument from analogy” argument.  KN is saying that the complex specified information in a cell is “similar in relevant respects” to the complex specified information found, for example, in a language or a code.  He is saying that the irreducible complexity of any number of biological systems is “similar in relevant respects” to the irreducible complexity of machines. 

No sir.  That is not what ID posits at all, not even close.  ID posits that the complex specified information in a cell is identical to the complex specified information of a computer code.  The DNA code is not “like” a computer code.  The DNA code and a computer code are two manifestations of the same thing.  The irreducible complexity of the bacterial flagellum is identical to (not similar to) the irreducible complexity of an outboard motor.  

ID proponents obviously have the burden of demonstrating their claims.  For example, they have the burden of demonstrating that the DNA code and a computer code are identical in relevant respects.  And if you disagree with their conclusions that is fair enough.  Tell us why.  But it is not fair to attempt to refute ID by attacking a claim ID proponents do not make.

KN:

(3) Therefore, it is highly probable that Cs are also caused by Bs. 

ID as it really is:

(3)  Therefore, abductive reasoning leads to the conclusion that B is the best explanation of A. 

The Wikipedia article on abductive reasoning is quite good.  [I have changed the symbols to correspond with our discussion]: 

to abduce a hypothetical explanation “B” from an observed surprising circumstance “A” is to surmise that “B” may be true because then “A” would be a matter of course. Thus, to abduce B from A involves determining that B is sufficient (or nearly sufficient), but not necessary, for A.

For example, the lawn is wet. But if it rained last night, then it would be unsurprising that the lawn is wet. Therefore, by abductive reasoning, the possibility that it rained last night is reasonable. . . . abducing rain last night from the observation of the wet lawn can lead to a false conclusion. In this example, dew, lawn sprinklers, or some other process may have resulted in the wet lawn, even in the absence of rain.

[Philosopher Charles Sanders] Peirce argues that good abductive reasoning from A to B involves not simply a determination that, e.g., B is sufficient for A, but also that B is among the most economical explanations for A. Simplification and economy call for the ‘leap’ of abduction.

For what seems like the ten thousandth time:  ID does not posit that the existence of complex specified information and irreducibly complex structures within living systems compels “act of an intelligent agent” as a matter of logical necessity.  ID posits that given our universal experience concerning complex specified information and irreducibly complex structures where the provenance of such has been actually observed, the best explanation of the existence of these same things in living structures is “act of intelligent agent.” 

KN, I hope this helps.  If you disagree with any of the premises or the abuction that we say follows from the premises, by all means attack them with abandon.  But please don’t attack an argument we do not make.  That just wastes everyone’s time. 

 

 

 

Comments
Hi Phinehas,
Great! We’re making progress!
Yes! We make progress when we answer each other's questions.
1) RDF has NOT stopped beating his wife. I’m sure RDF will also agree that: 2) People stop doing things when they don’t think it is OK to continue.
No, I disagree with this statement - there are other reasons to stop doing things.
If RDF thinks it is OK to continue beating his wife, I’m afraid we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
No, I do not think it is OK to continue beating my wife - I am not nor have I ever done so. See? Now let's try it with you actually answering questions about the topic at hand! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
03:11 PM
3
03
11
PM
PDT
RDF to SB, 782:
you steadfastly refuse to provide any sort of definition for “intelligence” or “intelligent agency”, which makes these debates much harder than they need to be.
SB is of course one of the authors of the UD weak argument correctives in the revised form linked from the resources tab above, to which the UD glossary is an appendix. If RDF cared to follow, as well, he would have seen that the definition of intelligence found in that glossary has already been cited upthread. I am fairly sure it will be acceptable to SB as a first pass. As in:
Intelligence – Wikipedia aptly and succinctly defines: “capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn.”
Yes, the UD glossary uses a definition of intelligence that is given by a source known to be generally hostile to design theory, the better to make it plain that we are not making an idiosyncratic usage but an ordinary one. An intelligent agent would obviously be an entity of whatever form that reflects such capabilities or a material subset of them. Where, reasoning, purposing [necessary for planning], thinking, thinking abstractly and comprehending [= understanding] ideas all move well beyond mere mechanical processing to self aware insightful thought. And nothing in the definition implies that such an entity is or requires a physical substrate or infrastructure. End of rabbit trail, back to the pivotal issues. KFkairosfocus
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
03:03 PM
3
03
03
PM
PDT
RDF: Great! We're making progress! 1) RDF has NOT stopped beating his wife. I'm sure RDF will also agree that: 2) People stop doing things when they don't think it is OK to continue. If RDF thinks it is OK to continue beating his wife, I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree.Phinehas
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
03:01 PM
3
03
01
PM
PDT
RDF:
However, if you read my statement (3) again you’ll see I am not defining any term. Rather, I said that “intelligence depends on CSI-rich mechanism”.
That is another false statement. You didn't say that "intelligence DEPENDS on CSI-rich mechanism when you reframed my refutation (while refusing to confront it). You said,
"You are saying that the intelligent agent (that ID claims to be the source of the CSI we observe in terrestrial living things) MAY ITSELF HAVE BEEN a CSI-rich physical entity. Is that right?"
To say, "it may have been" is to make a statement about what an intelligent agent "is" or "was," which is far different from saying that an intelligent agent merely depends on something. The second statement can be justified; the first statement cannot. It is just another of the many ways you quietly try to twist meanings and hope no one will notice. In any case, that whole paragraph was simply an attempt to evade my refutation and muddy the debate waters. So, let's get back to the refutation. It's clean, easy to understand, and does not need any fine tuning by you. RDF
I point out intelligence depends on CSI-rich mechanism, so it could not precede it.
Even if it were true that intelligence cannot precede the CSI that it is alleged to depend on, it can precede the CSI that it produces. Your error is in believing that all manifestations of CSI are the same CSI. Do you have an answer to my refutation of your main argument?StephenB
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
02:50 PM
2
02
50
PM
PDT
Hi Phinehas,
So, to be clear, you’re saying that you’ve NOT stopped beating your wife?
Again, absolutely, positively, without reservation or qualification, I have not stopped beating my wife! I have already explained that #2 is the correct answer. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
02:42 PM
2
02
42
PM
PDT
To clarify 789 Argument #3 1. True 2. True 3. True 4. True 5. True 6. False 7. False And 7 re-worded instead of "observed not on earth", "non-terrestrial CSI"Silver Asiatic
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
02:29 PM
2
02
29
PM
PDT
RDF: Your answer is much more complicated than my simple choices. You've also invoked impossibilities, which only serves to muddy the waters. I'm really going to have to insist that you stick with my much more simple framing of the questions. So, to be clear, you're saying that you've NOT stopped beating your wife?Phinehas
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
02:25 PM
2
02
25
PM
PDT
2) It is NOT the case that for every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity.
Every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, originated on planet earth. Conclusion: Therefore, if the universe was designed by intelligence, that intelligence must have come from planet earth. or Since it is not possible that an intelligence from earth could design the universe, then the universe could not possibly be designed by intelligence. or Since God, by definition is intelligent and existed before planet earth, God cannot possibly exist. Argument #2 1. For every intelligent action in our experience, where we know the source, we know the source empirically. 2. The source, by definition, is intelligence. 3. We therefore have empirical knowledge of a thing called "intelligence". 4. Empirical knowledge means that we can measure the physical dimensions of the thing. 5. Since we have empirical knowledge of intelligence, we can measure the physical (weight, spacial characteristics, location, functioning physical parts and dimensions) aspects of it. Argument #3 (correction of above). 1. We do not have direct empirical knowledge of the source of any intelligent action. 2. We only know that an action is intelligent by observing the effects of intelligence. 3. The empirical data we study is not intelligence itself, but the effects of intelligence. 4. So, we do not know intelligence directly, only the effects. 5. One of the effects of intelligence we observe is CSI. 6. But we only observe CSI originating from earth. 7. So, effects of intelligence (CSI) observed not on earth, cannot be indications of intelligence. Obviously, these don't work.Silver Asiatic
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
02:24 PM
2
02
24
PM
PDT
Hi Phinehas,
As to the two different statements approach… 1) It is the case that RDF has stopped beating his wife. 2) It is NOT the case that RDF has stopped beating his wife.
What is the problem? The answer is quite simple: I have not stopped beating my wife, because I have never started and so stopping would be impossible. Thus, #2 is the correct answer. How about your answer now? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
02:17 PM
2
02
17
PM
PDT
RDF: As to the two different statements approach... 1) It is the case that RDF has stopped beating his wife. 2) It is NOT the case that RDF has stopped beating his wife. Now, you wouldn't refuse to accept either one of these statements, would you? But they differ ONLY in the one single word of negation, "NOT". I hope you see the point in not always accepting how someone else chooses to frame the debate. *For the record, I don't know whether RDF even has a wife.*Phinehas
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
02:12 PM
2
02
12
PM
PDT
Hi Phinehas, Hi Phinehas,
I don’t find his statement that complicated. Are you not able to understand what he is saying?
I understand the statement. The statement alludes to some unspecified set of observations and "related analysis", including arguments about the cosmos, that somehow is held to ultimately lead to a "reasonable conclusion" (or at least show that there is no good basis for rejecting) that there is a possibility that there is an exception to the claim that when we observe the production of CSI it always comes from a CSI-rich physical entity. The problem is that this is not at all responsive to what I have asked. I am not talking about the other sorts of observations about, for example, the physical constants of the cosmos, and I am not talking about what sorts of conclusions are "reasonable" given all sorts of other arguments and analyses, and I am not talking about whether or not we have a good basis for ruling things out. Instead, I am asking a very simple question about our experience, that I will repeat here once again: It is the case, or is it NOT the case, that for every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
02:11 PM
2
02
11
PM
PDT
RDF: So, yes? You do have a problem with KF's correction? I don't find his statement that complicated. Are you not able to understand what he is saying? Nor do I think it "invokes" the fine tuned contingent cosmos we inhabit, but merely points to it as a possible counter-example to the claim that only CSI-rich physical entities can produce CSI. Is there something about the fine tuned contingent cosmos we inhabit being used as such an example to which you object? Or even, for the sake of argument, do you have a reason for objecting to its "invocation?" What exactly is your objection?Phinehas
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
01:52 PM
1
01
52
PM
PDT
Hi Phinehas, I asked you if you agreed with the statement "for every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity". This is a simple proposition, extremely similar to one that we both agreed with from ID: "for every CSI-rich system in our experience, when we know the source, the source is intelligent action". Neither of us feel the need to complicate, qualify, hedge, or alter the latter proposition in order to agree with. However, while you disagree with the former statement, you refuse to confirm its direct contradiction. Instead you come back with a complicated statement that even invokes the fine tuned contingent cosmos we inhabit. Two statements, Phinehas: 1) It is the case that for every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity. 2) It is NOT the case that for every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity. One is the direct contradiction of the other - they differ ONLY in the one single word of negation, "NOT". Still you refuse to accept either one of these statements! Small wonder it has been difficult to make progress here :-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
01:37 PM
1
01
37
PM
PDT
RDF:
I am trying very hard not to equivocate about anything, and not to misrepresent your position, and in order to do that you need to simply tell me if I am stating your position correctly or not, and if not, please state your position as concisely as you can.
I have no problem with how KF corrected your characterization of the ID position:
KF: In your view, there are indeed [there is no good basis for ruling out that there are] instances of intelligent action in our experience [and observation with related analysis] where we know the source and [can find it reasonable to hold that] the source is not a CSI-rich physical entity. [Where the fine tuned contingent cosmos we inhabit is a relevant case in point.]
Do you?Phinehas
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
01:23 PM
1
01
23
PM
PDT
Hi StephenB,
RDF: Let me just make sure I really understand what you are saying by paraphrasing your objection. You are saying that the intelligent agent (that ID claims to be the source of the CSI we observe in terrestrial living things) may have itself been a CSI-rich physical entity. Is that right? SB: Absolutely not. You cannot define an intelligent agent, which is capable of producing CSI, as a CSI-rich entity.
I was not making a definition. Unfortunately you steadfastly refuse to provide any sort of definition for "intelligence" or "intelligent agency", which makes these debates much harder than they need to be. However, if you read my statement (3) again you'll see I am not defining any term. Rather, I said that "intelligence depends on CSI-rich mechanism". Do you or do you not agree with this statement, then: For every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity. You've dodged the question once by pretending I was redefining some term. You can use whatever obscure (or secret) definition you want to for "intelligent action" in this sentence, but if you dodge the question it will confirm that you are unwilling to debate the issue in good faith.
A CSI-rich entity is not causally adequate for producing CSI, but an intelligent agent is. Rather then try to convert my refutation into a strawman, just stay with it as it is. It should be clear enough.
Since my argument makes no mention of "causal adequacy", your statement is simply not relevant. Here again is my simple argument:
1) ID says that for every CSI-rich system in our experience, when we know the source, the source is intelligent action. 2) We observe CSI-rich systems in biology; ID says that intelligent action is therefore the best explanation for these systems. 3) I say that for every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity 4) I say that (3) implies that intelligent action could not have preceded CSI-rich mechanism in order to cause it
If you'd like to argue about something else, such as the "non-negotiable rules for historial sciences" or something, perhaps we can get to that some other time. But I've presented a very simple argument here, and I think if you could dispute it you certainly would. So the question is, can you?
RDF: Also, are there any other objections you have to my argument as stated in my recent posts to Phinehas? SB: Let me count the ways.
Actually, just counting the ways you disagree is not helpful. Neither are blanket accusation of illogic, falsity, or appeals to the "rules of historical science". Either you can counter my simple argument as I've presented it here or you can't. As long as you fail to tell me which of the four statements in my argument you disagree with and why, it will be quite apparently that you cannot refute it. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
01:15 PM
1
01
15
PM
PDT
RDF:
3) I point out intelligence depends on CSI-rich mechanism, so it could not precede it.
SB: Intelligence cannot precede the CSI that it is alleged to depend on, but it can precede the CSI that it produces. Your error is in believing that all manifestations of CSI are the same CSI.
RDF: Ok good!! Thank you for that clear explanation of your objection.
You are welcome.
RDF: Let me just make sure I really understand what you are saying by paraphrasing your objection. You are saying that the intelligent agent (that ID claims to be the source of the CSI we observe in terrestrial living things) may have itself been a CSI-rich physical entity. Is that right?
Absolutely not. You cannot define an intelligent agent, which is capable of producing CSI, as a CSI-rich entity. A CSI-rich entity is not causally adequate for producing CSI, but an intelligent agent is. Rather then try to convert my refutation into a strawman, just stay with it as it is. It should be clear enough.
Also, are there any other objections you have to my argument as stated in my recent posts to Phinehas?
Let me count the ways. It is illogical, as I made clear in the above statement; irrelevant, as I have pointed out all along; non-representative of the ID inference; dependent on a false premise (the claim that intelligence cannot exist without CSI); and contrary to the rules of historical science, which you say don't exist except when you are subjecting them to a negative evaluation.StephenB
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
12:59 PM
12
12
59
PM
PDT
Hi Phinehas,
RDF: So now you’ve explained your objection to (3), which is that as an empirical claim (rather than a metaphysical speculation), it is false. Once again, just to be very, very clear: In your view, there are indeed instances of intelligent action in our experience where we know the source and the source is not a CSI-rich physical entity. Please confirm that I understand you correctly, and also is there anything else you object to in my argument as I stated it in #767? PHINEHAS: If you understand me correctly, then you will understand: And I say that, as predicted, when you are not equivocating in a way that would make (3) look as though it is a logical conclusion, (3) can be shown to be irrelevant. So, do you understand me correctly?
Well, the reason I want to take this a step at a time is because we so often talk past each other. If you are confident of your argument, this should not be a problem for you, but for some reason you didn't answer my question. Again, let's just take it a step at a time: We both agree with the oft-stated assertion of ID that says "For every CSI-rich system in our experience, when we know the source, the source is intelligent action." Right? However, you apparently disagree with the assertion that "For every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity." In other words, in your view, there are indeed instances of intelligent action in our experience where we know the source and the source is not a CSI-rich physical entity. Does this fairly represent your objection to my statement in (3) or not? I know you'd rather just accuse me of equivocation or some other malfeasance here, but I am trying very hard not to equivocate about anything, and not to misrepresent your position, and in order to do that you need to simply tell me if I am stating your position correctly or not, and if not, please state your position as concisely as you can. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
12:49 PM
12
12
49
PM
PDT
@RDF:
You can read this entire thread in vain looking for one single comment I’ve made that is derogatory about anyone’s religious views. I am arguing against a position that deals with the nature of empirical support, and have taken special care to say explicitly and repeatedly that belief in God is not irrational or unreasonable, and that there are other ways to justify knowledge besides empiricism. In return, you tell me that anyone who doesn’t believe in your particular conception of a Supreme Being is incapable of rationality.
When you repeatedly ignore the limitations of the evidence of human experience, you are acting irrational. You have no intellectual foundation for the assertion, and yet you use it anyways against debate opponents who have explained that it is unconvincing and not true; with no attempt at explaining why their objections are wrong or inapplicable and why you will continue to assert it. The sentence you singled out as offensive is my treating this as another data point in my life experience regarding a certain religious claim. ("The fool says in his heart, "There is no God"") I find it interesting that you pay little attention to accusations of dishonest argumentation, but this offhand comment on rationality cuts you to the quick to the point you respond to it twice. If you are rational, then my statement is false. Why even be offended? You know whether or not you are rational - is it in any way dependent on what I think? Is my claim true? If not - and if I am an ignorant bigot as you have called me, why do you care what I might think about you? "Sad that you would say that, SirHamster, but that's just the sort of thing that an ignorant bigot would say." I can tell you that I am not offended by your labels of ignorant/bigot, because I don't find that this debate has demonstrated it.SirHamster
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
12:41 PM
12
12
41
PM
PDT
That's odd, I think I hit comment nos 666 and 777! Maybe I should go look for a powerball! (NOT)kairosfocus
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
12:34 PM
12
12
34
PM
PDT
RDF, 774:
as far as ID is concerned, the intelligent agent that designed life on Earth may well have itself been a CSI-rich physical entity.
It has been repeatedly stated above that the inference to design for the world of cell based life on earth from Thaxton et al c 1984 on, does not extend to whether the entity involved is within or beyond the cosmos. That is, post Venter et al, we can see a possible -- causally sufficient -- cause would have been a molecular nanotech lab. It is the cosmological design inference on fine tuning in the further context of a credibly contingent cosmos, which points to a designer beyond it, witht he knowledge, power, skill and intent to build such a cosmos. This holds through even a multiverse speculation and in the root we plausibly end up with a necessary, intelligent being as ultimate cause, on best explanation. Such is at least possible, and would be non material as matter is inherently contingent. That is, we are looking at a mind beyond matter as a necessary being. And BTW, by the logic of cause involved [logic, not theology], necessary beings have no beginning and no end. (Cf here on, a link that has also been previously given.) All of this has been highlighted repeatedly across hundreds of posts so if you are unaware of this, that can hardly count to your advantage. KFkairosfocus
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
12:31 PM
12
12
31
PM
PDT
RDF:
Please confirm that I understand you correctly, and also is there anything else you object to in my argument as I stated it in #767?
If you understand me correctly, then you will understand:
And I say that, as predicted, when you are not equivocating in a way that would make (3) look as though it is a logical conclusion, (3) can be shown to be irrelevant.
So, do you understand me correctly?Phinehas
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
12:25 PM
12
12
25
PM
PDT
Re RDF to Ph, 772:
In your view, there are indeed [there is no good basis for ruling out that there are] instances of intelligent action in our experience [and observation with related analysis] where we know the source and [can find it reasonable to hold that] the source is not a CSI-rich physical entity. [Where the fine tuned contingent cosmos we inhabit is a relevant case in point.]
That is there is no good observationally rooted reason to assert that it is our uniform experience that CSI-exhibiting systems come from designers which are invariably based on and require CSI-exhibiting bodies and organs such as the brain. KFkairosfocus
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
12:16 PM
12
12
16
PM
PDT
Hi Brent, Sorry, I missed this post.
Not only have we no experience with other mechanisms by which CSI arises, but no other plausible mechanisms are even available.
Yes, I have agreed with this from the start.
If, as you suggest, it is CSI (other complex physical mechanisms), that gives rise to CSI, well, you have in infinite regress, and have not answered the question. You seem to think this is a problem for ID, but it is not. You see this problem and immediately jump to the conclusion that, therefore, ID is really about the OOL. But it isn’t. No one in the ID community proper is trying to ride the bus that far. They don’t have to.
Ok, good. Let me make sure I understand your argument here. You are saying that the problem with my argument is this: I assume the Designer of ID must be disembodied (to avoid an infinite regress), but you are saying that ID is not concerned with this. In other words, as far as ID is concerned, the intelligent agent that designed life on Earth may well have itself been a CSI-rich physical entity. Do I understand you correctly? Here is a very simple explanation of my argument: 1) ID says that for every CSI-rich system in our experience, when we know the source, the source is intelligent action. 2) We observe CSI-rich systems in biology; ID says that intelligent action is therefore the best explanation for these systems. 3) I say that for every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity 4) I say that (3) implies that intelligent action could not have preceded CSI-rich mechanism in order to cause it If I understand you, you object to (4), because as far as ID is concerned, the CSI-rich mechanisms we see on Earth may well have been designed by an entity who was itself a CSI-rich entity. Is that right? Do you object to anything else in my argument? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
12:06 PM
12
12
06
PM
PDT
SB: You may find the explicit laying out of inductive reasoning applied to design inferences, at 762, interesting. meyer did not make up or by his own fiat impose such glorified common sense rules, indeed he explicitly highlights noticing the use of these rules in the title of a work by Lyell. KFkairosfocus
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
11:59 AM
11
11
59
AM
PDT
Hi Phinehas,
RDF: 3) I say that for every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity PHINEHAS: This is only true where “our” is limited to materialists or “experience” is limited to our physical senses. In other words, it rests upon metaphysical assumptions.
Very well then! You disagree with my premise (3). In your view, there are indeed instances of intelligent action in our experience where we know the source and the source is not a CSI-rich physical entity. Excellent - I think we're making very good progress here!
However, we’ve clearly seen that metaphysical assumptions about the nature of the designer are irrelevant to ID.
Yes! And metaphysical assumptions are irrelevant to my argument as well. In other words, if my argument turns out to rest on some metaphysical assumption, then my argument fails, because my argument explicitly claims to be based on our uniform and repeated experience. So now you've explained your objection to (3), which is that as an empirical claim (rather than a metaphysical speculation), it is false. Once again, just to be very, very clear: In your view, there are indeed instances of intelligent action in our experience where we know the source and the source is not a CSI-rich physical entity. Please confirm that I understand you correctly, and also is there anything else you object to in my argument as I stated it in #767? Now we're getting somewhere! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
11:16 AM
11
11
16
AM
PDT
RDF:
RDF: 3) I say that for every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity
This is only true where "our" is limited to materialists or "experience" is limited to our physical senses. In other words, it rests upon metaphysical assumptions. However, we've clearly seen that metaphysical assumptions about the nature of the designer are irrelevant to ID. As has been pointed out repeatedly:
UB: If it should come to pass that at some future date we find that a bodily entity originated life on earth, or alternatively, that a “disembodied” entity did it, neither of these would…alter our original inference to design. This simple fact decimates the position you’ve argued for.
RDF: 4) I say that (3) implies that intelligent action could not have preceded CSI-rich mechanism in order to cause it
And I say that, as predicted, when you are not equivocating in a way that would make (3) look as though it is a logical conclusion, (3) can be shown to be irrelevant.Phinehas
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
11:02 AM
11
11
02
AM
PDT
Hi StephenB,
Intelligence cannot precede the CSI that it is alleged to depend on, but it can precede the CSI that it produces. Your error is in believing that all manifestations of CSI are the same CSI.
Ok good!! Thank you for that clear explanation of your objection. Let me just make sure I really understand what you are saying by paraphrasing your objection. You are saying that the intelligent agent (that ID claims to be the source of the CSI we observe in terrestrial living things) may have itself been a CSI-rich physical entity. Is that right? Also, are there any other objections you have to my argument as stated in my recent posts to Phinehas? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
10:43 AM
10
10
43
AM
PDT
SirHampster:
SH: I’ve learned from experience not to expect rationality from people who reject God.
You can read this entire thread in vain looking for one single comment I've made that is derogatory about anyone's religious views. I am arguing against a position that deals with the nature of empirical support, and have taken special care to say explicitly and repeatedly that belief in God is not irrational or unreasonable, and that there are other ways to justify knowledge besides empiricism. In return, you tell me that anyone who doesn't believe in your particular conception of a Supreme Being is incapable of rationality. I could, based on your actions, accuse all religious people of the ignorance and bigotry you display. But I am not a bigoted person, and I know that not all religious people lash out at unbelievers the way you do.RDFish
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
10:40 AM
10
10
40
AM
PDT
RDF:
3) I point out intelligence depends on CSI-rich mechanism, so it could not precede it. Are there any other reasons that you believe (3) is wrong/irrelevant?
Yes, (3) is not only irrelevant, it is illogical. Intelligence cannot precede the CSI that it is alleged to depend on, but it can precede the CSI that it produces. Your error is in believing that all manifestations of CSI are the same CSI. It is a huge, huge, error.StephenB
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
10:39 AM
10
10
39
AM
PDT
Hi Phinehas,
RDF: Here is a very simple summary: 1) ID says only intelligence makes CSI-rich systems. 2) We see CSI-rich systems in biology; ID says intelligence is the best explanation 3) I point out intelligence depends on CSI-rich mechanism, so it could not precede it. PHINEHAS: Yes, sometimes you say “so it could not” as if this is a logical conclusion. But when logical objections are raised, you suddenly change what you are saying to claim you are making an empirical claim.
I have said perhaps 300 times, consistently and without exception, over and over again until I am blue in the face, that THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT ABOUT LOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY BUT RATHER ABOUT EMPIRICALLY-BASED PROBABILITIES OF HYPOTHESES. I could go gather up quote and quote where I have said this explicitly, and if you don't believe me I will. In any event, perhaps at long last you now understand what I have been saying consistently from the very start: Our uniform and repeated experience do not serve as incontrovertable premises from which we can make certain conclusions! Instead they establish our expectations of what is true. In this case, our experience indicates that all intelligent action depends on CSI-rich mechanisms. Not a logical claim, not a claim of certainty, just a statement about the fact that every observation of intelligent action comes from a CSI-rich entity.
So, does (3) accurately reflect what you are saying? Or does it not?
I will endeavor to be even more simple and clear: 1) ID says that for every CSI-rich system in our experience, when we know the source, the source is intelligent action. 2) We observe CSI-rich systems in biology; ID says that intelligent action is therefore the best explanation for these systems. 3) I say that for every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity 4) I say that (3) implies that intelligent action could not have preceded CSI-rich mechanism in order to cause it Now, I am trying to understand your objections to this argument. Here are possible things you object to, but I am asking you to tell me exactly what your counter-arguments are. a) Perhaps you find (3) to be untrue. In other words, you believe that there are intelligent actions in our experience for which we know the source and the source is not a CSI-rich physical entity. b) Perhaps you object to the inference in (4) because the intelligent agent responsible for CSI-rich mechanisms in biology could itself have been a CSI-rich mechanism. Of course these might not be your counter-arguments, or you may take issue with the way I've worded them, or you may have completely different counter-arguments. What I am asking is for you to be as clear as you can and tell me what your position is. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 23, 2013
October
10
Oct
23
23
2013
10:38 AM
10
10
38
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 29

Leave a Reply