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Professor Raymond Tallis on good and bad arguments for atheism

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I have often found that the best refutations of arguments for atheism are written by atheists. Raymond Tallis is a splendid example of this rule. In an article entitled “Why I am an atheist,” in Philosophy Now, May/June 2009, 73:47-48 (click here or here to read online), he manages to slay no less than three arguments for atheism, before advancing two much better arguments of his own. Interestingly, however, some of the best online refutations of Tallis’s own arguments for atheism have been written by …. you guessed it, atheists.

The relevance of all this to Intelligent Design should be obvious. Arguments for Intelligent Design are based not only on the existence of complex specified information in living organisms, but also on the fine-tuning of the cosmos. If there were a cosmic Creator, then it would have to be a God of some sort. But if there were compelling or even strong arguments against the existence of God, they would also be arguments against at least the cosmic version of Intelligent Design.

Without further ado, let’s have a look at what Tallis calls the bad arguments for atheism.

First, there’s the argument from lack of evidence for God:

The worst reason for not believing in God (though the least obviously bad), is that there is no evidence for His existence. This is a bad reason for atheism because no-one can agree what would count as evidence. Miracles, scriptures, the testimony of priests and prophets etc, can all be contested on empirical grounds: but for some people the fact that we communicate intelligibly with one another, or that the world is ordered, or even that there is something rather than nothing, is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that there is a Creator who not only made the world but also made it habitable by and intelligible to us. Therefore the appeal to evidence, or lack of it, will always be inconclusive.

Often atheists appeal to Occam’s razor when justifying their skepticism along these lines, but the philosopher Michael Anthony, a Senior Lecturer in the Department of Philosophy at the University of Haifa, Israel, undercut this argument in an incisive article entitled, Where’s the Evidence?. Allow me to quote a short excerpt:

The trouble is that Ockham’s Razor is of little use in disputes over whether some entity X exists. That is because it is typically an open question in such disputes whether everything that needs explaining can in fact be explained without X. Theists believe, or at least suspect, that there are features of reality which are inexplicable without appeal to a divine being: the existence of a contingent universe, the fine-tuning of physical constants, etc. We need not decide here whether a divine being is needed to explain these things: what is important is just that the Razor itself cannot decide such matters. It comes into play only assuming that a complete explanation of the relevant phenomena is possible without X; at which point it licenses us to eliminate X from our ontology.

The second bad argument for atheism which Raymond Tallis criticizes is the argument from the various evils that religious belief has inflicted on the human race – warfare, sectarian bigotry, clerical corruption and the oppression of women, as well as the hampering of open-ended scientific inquiry. Tallis’ rebuttal of this argument is commendably fair-minded:

However, the jury must still be out over the net benefit, because we cannot run the course of history twice, once with and once without religion, to determine whether religion has overall made us treat each other worse. Or, come to that, whether religion has blocked progress in understanding nature and making the world more comfortable to live in and life more bearable, or vice versa….

… Badly behaved priests and sickeningly venal and powerful churches do not demonstrate the untruth of religion. While they remind us of the corrupting influence of power, particular when it claims to have transcendental authority, this fact doesn’t support the Big Bang against the Six Days of Creation.

It is heartening to see that there are some atheists who are capable of separating the metaphysical truth claims of a religion from the moral goodness or badness of the people making those claims. Certainly, a corrupt founder can bring a religion’s metaphysical truth claims into discredit, if some of those claims pertain to him (or her); but it is hard to see how corrupt followers can inflict such damage on a religion.

The final bad argument for atheism is that belief in God traumatizes people, but Tallis has no time for this one either:

Another bad reason for being an atheist is that religious beliefs scare people witless, particularly children, with their doctrines of salvation and damnation. That argument won’t wash either. If God expects certain things of you – including belief in Him – and the punishment for disappointing Him is eternal damnation, then it’s a supreme kindness to frighten you into obedience to His Will, as interpreted by the experts.

Having cleared the table, Tallis puts forward what he considers to be the two best arguments for atheism: first, if a personal God exists, He is a morally capricious Being, which makes His existence implausible; and second, the concept of God is self-contradictory. First, let’s examine Tallis’s charge of capriciousness:

According to the religions in which I was brought up (though not, of course to all religions), God unites in His Person a risibly odd combination of properties. In order to uphold a world picture which links the great events that brought the universe about with the little events that fill our lives, it has to conflate metaphysics and morality, physics and politeness – something of the significance of the Big Bang with an Angry God who sulks because he is not adequately praised, and who intervenes at a personal or political level in an often random and sometimes quite repulsive way… The God who merges the power that slew thousands to avenge the slights felt by other thousands, or to lift a righteous person up, with the power to bring the boundless totality of things into being, is an ontological monstrosity – like a chimera uniting the front end of a whale with the back end of a microbe.

The charge that Tallis is making here is that the personal God of the Abrahamic religions is both big and small at the same time – and not only small, but petty to boot.

My initial line of response would be to ask Tallis what he considers more important than people. For it was he himself who wrote:

But we are quite different from other species, if only because, as the philosopher Schelling pointed out, it is in us that, “Nature opens its eyes . . . and notices that it exists.” We are the only species that quarrels over its own nature and has written about the origin of species. (You can be a beast, but I’m human.. Article in The Times, October 29, 2005.)

“OK,” you might be thinking, “so we’re not beasts. But why should an infinite God care about human beings in particular?” The best and most succinct answer to that question which I’ve ever seen comes from an online article by (you guessed it) another atheist, Jason Rosenhouse: Coyne lays an egg. In his article, Rosenhouse takes Professor Jerry Coyne to task for what he considers a very unsatisfactory review of Professor Michael Behe’s book, The Edge of Evolution (Free Press, 2007). At one point Rosenhouse quotes a remark made by Coyne in his review:

So what scientific reason can there be for singling out just one species as the Designer’s goal?

and answers Coyne’s question with a ready reply:

There is only one species with the intelligence to contemplate a relationship with God. That’s why we might single out just one species.

Bravo, Professor Rosenhouse! I couldn’t have put it better myself.

A God who takes an interest in human affairs is not a small God, then.

The next point I’d like to make is that the value of human life is not additive. Two lives are worth no more than one. To see why, consider the following moral dilemma discussed by the atheist philosopher, Philippa Foot, in a now-famous essay, The Problem of Abortion and the Doctrine of Double Effect:

Suppose that a judge or magistrate is faced with rioters demanding that a culprit be found for a certain crime and threatening otherwise to take their own bloody revenge on a particular section of the community. The real culprit being unknown, the judge sees himself as able to prevent the bloodshed only by framing some innocent person and having him executed.

In such a case, Foot declares, the judge “may not kill the innocent person in order to stop the riots.” And she is surely right. As the Talmud puts it:

Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world. (Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5; Babylonian Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin 37a.)

It is not morally absurd, then, for God (if He exists) to take a personal interest in one particular human being. It would be utterly wrong to think that one person is too small to take an interest in. On the contrary, there is nothing in all the world which is larger than a single human individual.

Nor is there anything petty about God taking a personal interest in a particular tribe of human beings, provided that He has a morally significant reason for doing so – e.g. a special task that He wishes to accomplish through them.

Finally, I would invite Professor Tallis to make a distinction between what God does on a given occasion, and the way in which His actions are subsequently described by human beings. The Israelites, after passing safely through the Red Sea, may have gloried in the death of the Egyptian armies that pursued them: “Both horse and rider He has hurled into the sea” (Exodus 15:21). That sounds like gloating, and I for one do not believe in a God who gloats at the destruction of human beings, be they good or bad. But I have no problem believing that of all the peoples of the world, God might choose one (the Jews) as the people to whom He would first reveal Himself. After all, He had to pick somebody. I also have no problem believing that He may have providentially assisted the Jewish people to escape from the clutches of their captors, the Egyptians. To assert this is in no way equivalent to asserting He intended the destruction of the Egyptians who chose to pursue the Israelites; rather, it simply means that God intended to make sure that nobody who wished to harm the Israelites would be capable of pursuing them.

Thus people may be petty and vindictive in exalting God’s mighty works; but God Himself is never petty.

Professor Tallis’s other main argument for atheism is that “God is a logically impossible object,” as he puts it in his provocatively titled article, In search of the G-spot. What he particularly objects to, as he writes in his article, “Why I am an atheist,” is the notion of a God who combines in His Being both the unbounded and the specific:

… the notion of a God who is infinite but has specific characteristics; unbounded, but distinct in some sense from His creation; who is a Being that has not been brought into being; who is omniscient, omnipotent and good and yet so constrained as to be unable or unwilling to create a world without evil; who is intelligent and yet has little in common with intelligent beings as we understand them; and so on.

As a religious believer, I completely reject Tallis’s assertion that the God of classical theism, or even the God of Judaism and Christianity, has any specific characteristics whatsoever. Let’s start with classical theism: God is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Being Who created the cosmos. The latter part of that description (“Who created the cosmos”) sounds specific. However, it does not describe the essence of God (which is utterly unbounded), but a particular action, freely performed by God. Likewise, the actions performed by God in the Bible do not endow Him with specific characteristics as a Being; they are simply specific choices that He made at critical points in human history.

“But the God of Judaism is one God,” I hear you object. “That’s specific.” But what does “one” mean here? Does it mean “one and not two”? No. It means “one and indivisible.” God cannot be divided into parts; if he could, he would be contingent, and hence not God.

Someone might object that the God of the Jews is quite distinct from, say, Zeus and Thor, so He must have specific properties in His Being, to distinguish Him from those entities. Not so. Zeus and Thor have certain very specific properties; God is distinguished from these pint-sized deities by the general property of being totally unbounded in His essence. And lest anyone suggest that the word “His” implies specificity on God’s part, let me add that no Jew has ever attributed a body to the omnipresent God of the Bible, who forbade anyone to make an image of Him.

“But what about the Christian God?” I hear the skeptic ask. “By His very nature, He’s three persons – not two, and not twenty-five. Three sounds pretty specific, wouldn’t you say?” No, I wouldn’t. According to one popular explanation developed by St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.), the Trinity is simply a necessary consequence (even if we finite human beings are incapable of deducing it ourselves) of the general fact that God knows and loves Himself perfectly – God the Son being God’s knowledge of Himself, and God the Holy Spirit being God’s love of Himself. To say that God is a Being whose nature it is to know and love Himself perfectly is a completely general, non-arbitrary statement about the essence of God.

Turning to Professor Tallis’s remaining objections to the logical coherence of the notion of God: it should be readily apparent that an unbounded Being Who cannot fail to exist is necessarily “in some sense distinct from His creation,” since the cosmos is utterly contingent.

Nor can I see why Tallis objects to “a Being that has not been brought into being.” Or is he claiming that it is an a priori truth that whatever exists, has a beginning – or at the very least, a cause? But surely, the notion of an Uncaused Cause makes perfect sense. For instance, the atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell, in his famous 1948 BBC debate with the Jesuit priest, Fr. Frederick Copleston, upheld the view that “it’s illegitimate even to ask the question of the cause of the world.” The point at issue between Russell and Copleston was not whether there was an Uncaused Cause, but where one should stop in one’s quest for causes.

What about the problem of evil? It seems that Tallis has a point when he objects to the notion of a God “who is omniscient, omnipotent and good and yet so constrained as to be unable or unwilling to create a world without evil.” This would seem to imply a certain specificity on God’s part, wouldn’t it? No, not at all. I’ll answer Professor Tallis by directing him to an online article written by another atheist, Professor Bradley Monton, who describes what he considers to be “the most promising reply to the problem of evil,” as follows:

This isn’t the most formal way to present it, but I’ll present it with a parable. Suppose that God exists, and God is omnipotent and omniscient, and has the desire to be omnibenevolent. So God creates a very nice universe, a universe with no evil. We might at first think that God has fulfilled the criterion of omnibenevolence, but then we recognize that God could do more – God could create another universe that’s also very nice. Agents could exist in that universe that didn’t exist in the first universe, and so there’s an intuitive sense (which is admittedly tricky to make precise mathematically) in which there would be more goodness to reality than there would be were God just to create one universe.

But of course there’s no reason to stop at two – God should create an infinite number of universes. Now, he could just create an infinite number of universes, where in each universe no evil things happen. But in doing so, there would be certain creatures that wouldn’t exist – creatures like us, who exist in a universe with evil, and are essential products of that universe. So God has to decide whether to create our universe as well. What criterion should he use in making this decision? My thought is that he should create all the universes that have more good than evil, and not create the universes that have more evil than good.

So that’s why an omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent God would create our universe, even though it has evil – our universe adds (in an intuitive sense, setting aside mathematical technicalities) to the sum total of goodness in the universe, and hence it’s worth creating.

I don’t personally endorse Professor Monton’s solution to the problem of evil myself. Still, I wouldn’t rule it out either, and I think Professor Monton does a commendable job of showing that a promising reply to the problem of evil can be made, without any special pleading on the theist’s part.

Finally, we are left with Professor Tallis’s objection to the concept of a God “who is intelligent and yet has little in common with intelligent beings as we understand them.” Tallis is right to be wary of a purely apophatic theology which tells us what God is not, but doesn’t tell us what He is. There are, however, two viable alternatives. The first is the classical theism of St. Thomas Aquinas, who asserts that the attribution of intelligence to God is neither an equivocal one (where the word “intelligence” has a totally different meaning for human beings from the meaning it has when applied to God), nor a univocal one (where the word “intelligence” has the same meaning for humans as it does for God), but an analogous one. For Aquinas, the statement, “God is intelligent” simply means: “There is something in God which is to God like intelligence is to human beings.” The other attributes of God can be construed in the same fashion. As the philosopher and former atheist Edward Feser puts it in his excellent article on Classical Theism:

For the Thomist, this is the key to understanding how it can be the case that God’s goodness is His power, which is His knowledge, which is His essence, which is His existence. Such a claim would be nonsensical if the terms in question were being used univocally, in exactly the same sense in which we use them when we attribute goodness, power, knowledge, etc. to ourselves (and as they are used in Paleyan “arguments from analogy”). But neither are the senses utterly equivocal. Rather, what we mean is that there is in God something analogous to what we call goodness in us, something analogous to what we call knowledge in us, and so forth; and in God, it is one and the same thing that is analogous to what are in us distinct attributes.

Not all Christians find Aquinas’ doctrine of analogy persuasive, however, and some Christians would hold that “intelligence” means the same thing for us as it does for God. Some very famous Christian philosophers and theologians, such as St. Anselm (c. 1033-1109) and Duns Scotus (c.1265-1308), have argued that since “knowledge” is a pure perfection, which does not impose any limitations on its possessor, the term “knowledge” must have the same meaning for God and creatures alike: it can be applied univocally to both. (In this respect, knowledge is unlike the perfection of “rationality,” which is limiting because it requires its possessor to arrive at a conclusion only after reasoning his/her way from premises.) Thus although the manner in which God knows is utterly different from our own, and although God’s knowledge is infinitely greater than ours in degree, the actual meaning of the word “know” is the same for God as it is for other intelligent beings.

In any case, as I have argued before, the differences between Aquinas and Duns Scotus on this issue have been greatly exaggerated. Moreover, in formulating his doctrine of univocal predication, Scotus was not opposing the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas, but those of the theologian Henry of Ghent. And speaking of Aquinas, here is what he wrote in his Summa Contra Gentiles Book II, chapter 46, paragraph 4, about why the cosmos would have been lacking in perfection if God had not made intelligent creatures:

[T]he highest perfection of things required the existence of some creatures that act in the same way as God. But it has already been shown that God acts by intellect and will. It was therefore necessary for some creatures to have intellect and will.

Duns Scotus couldn’t have put it better himself.

I conclude, then, that the concept of God remains a defensible one, that Intelligent Design therefore remains an intellectually viable undertaking, and that Professor Tallis’s arguments have failed to undermine belief in God. I would also like to commend Professor Tallis for refuting three popular arguments for atheism, and I would urge him to read from the writings of other atheists and ex-atheists who have progressed beyond the more serious philosophical arguments he puts forward on behalf of atheism.

Comments
TM: We find ourselves as morally governed creatures, which points to a Lawgiver. God, as ground of the cosmos, is inherently good. He is not externally constrained in his behaviour, but his character of goodness decisively shapes what he does. So, as perfect Love Himself, God is not and cannot be capricious. Nor is divine caprice our real challenge, it is that as too often ill-willed moral rebels, were we to get justice, we would not fare very well. So our challenge is to obtain mercy. Thus, the significance of the gospel as good news, God himself intervening in love to rescue us, as we receive the Saviour:
Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. [ESV]
That puts up a very different picture than debating points about alleged divine caprice. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 21, 2010
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VJ, if God is unbounded, does that also mean He is unbounded by morality? If so, wouldn't He then be morally capricious?tragic mishap
December 21, 2010
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Steve Thanks. I was not sure on that one and asked. Great to hear from one of UD's resident experts! Gkairosfocus
December 21, 2010
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i find it odd that ppl who like to label themselves atheists, often say - well which god do you want me to belie in ( and then proceed to run off a whole list of historical deities) but , they are totally overlooking that it is the inner impetus within each individual that is giving rise to their conception of god , which is then built around either tradition , history , or experience, ie the atheist is comparing the stained glass of the window colors to god , an overlooking the fact that there is only one light behind those colours ,giving rise to our individual conceptions. if they had reason, they would see that there are numerous instruments to register god. there are as many as there are human beings , and these human instruments register god or lack of god , according to how finely tuned they are. and how finely tuned they are depends on their level of spiritual unfoldment. (and as very many atheists are rude ,arrogant and selfish and only worship intellect;therefor lacking much spiritual unfoldment its no surprise that they have so far failed to recognize god.)mazda
December 21, 2010
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kf: All your points are well taken. On a minor note, Aquinas believed that God created man in finished form and not through a gradual process, which is why Christian Darwinists are being disingenous when they shamelessly misuse his name to justify their incoherent world view.StephenB
December 21, 2010
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Ilion: You can see a discussion (updated overnight in light of recent exchanges at UD) of the distinction between classical, generic theism and specifically Biblical Judaeo-Christian theism. Islamic theism is somewhat different. When the inference form morality as the law in our hearts, minds and consciences is appropriately enfolded in theism -- beyond cosmological, ontological and teleological reasoning -- theism begins to approach the revelational theism of scriptures. But, indeed, it is not equal to it. BTW, the distinction is one part of why design thought is not to be properly equated to Biblical Creationism, in any of its various forms. (Young Earth, Young Cosmos Biblical Creationism is by no means the only form of Creationism, though it is probably the most common form of self-identified creationism in North America today. To give a measure, many of the founders of the Fundamentalist rebuttal to Modernism in the early 1900's were not YEC in views; and neither were some key church fathers (e.g. Augustine) and perhaps even so noteworthy a theologian as Aquinas [VJT, do correct me if I err on this last]. The picture is more complex than we may be led to think based on today's headlines.) However, Christians are theists in the strict worldviews sense. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 21, 2010
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VJTorley: "As a religious believer, I completely reject Tallis’s assertion that the God of classical theism, or even the God of Judaism and Christianity, has any specific characteristics whatsoever. …" Ilíon: "Ah! So, I was right all along in my suspicion that the “God of classical theism” (which Feser is always pushing) is not the Living God, the God of the Bible." VJTorley: "One could believe in the God of classical theism without believing in the God of the Bible. That’s an intellectually consistent position. …" Does "the God of classical theism" represent in incomplete understanding of the Living God -- in which case no sensible Christian will have a philosophical problem with the concept -- or is "the God of classical theism" an understanding of the deity which is in opposition to the understanding of "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"? === Look, the very term "theism" bothers me. To describe or categorize Biblical religion as "theism" is to implicitly, and improperly, put Judaism and Christianity on the same continuum with (classical) polytheism and pantheism ... and with atheism. AND, the creation of this false relationship leads to, and lends credence to, that supremely silly pseudo-argument, so belovéd of Dawkins and his acolytes, that "atheism just rejects one more" -- for this false relationship implies that God is but one more being (or posited being) in "the world." But, the fact is, most paganisms, most polytheisms (and certainly classical-age polytheism), pantheism, Mormonism and so on are all cut from the same cloth as (western-style) atheism. They are but variations on materialistic atheism (while non-materialistic atheism results in Buddhism or somethig akin to it). All these systems posit or assert that "the world" or "the universe" -- that is, time-space and matter-energy -- is the ultimate basis of reality, and that minds "arose," all by themselves, from matter-in-motion ... and, ultimately, from Chaos. All these systems posit or assert that 'Mind' (if minds even exist!) is an effect of matter. In total opposition to all variants of materialistic atheism (and also in opposition to non-materialistic atheism) are transcendant systems: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, possibly some formulations of Hinduism, and so on ... that is, systems which posit or assert -- or conclude -- that 'Mind' is the ultimate basis of reality. All these systems see that matter is an effect of 'Mind'. Now, of course, I understand that we have the difficulty of existing language: if/since the use of 'theism' to denote transcendant systems in general leads to the the false conception that they are just variations of materialism, yet seeing that the term 'atheism' naturally/linguistically implies 'theism,' then what term should we use instead? I have no idea; nevertheless: I am not a 'theist', I am a Christian.Ilion
December 21, 2010
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Barry Arrington: Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad you enjoyed the article.vjtorley
December 21, 2010
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markf (#28): Thank you for your post. I don't disagree with you when you write: "It seems to me that the only good reason for believing or not believing in something is the status of the evidence." As far as it goes, that's true. I would like to make the following observations, however: (1) As Tallis rightly points out, we first need to know what would count as evidence. And to answer that question, as Michael Anthony remarks in the passage I quoted above in my article, we need to know what would count as a good explanation of the facts which are relevant to deciding the issue; (2) Your phrase "the status of the evidence" sounds rather impersonal. When the "something" in question is a proposition describing a personal relationship (e.g. "My wife loves me," or "God loves me"), the decision procedure will have to take into account certain first-person facts which may be known to oneself alone, and which cannot be dispassionately analyzed on a third-person basis. Thus I would not agree with those skeptics who would rule out religious experience a priori as a reason for believing in God.vjtorley
December 21, 2010
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O/T: Just watched totality of the lunar eclipse. Once in 400 years, at the N Hemisphere Winter Solstice. Let us not forget that the choice of thos season for Christmas as a festival of light and the "official" birthday of Jesus, is that this is the time of minimum light in the world; and light is coming into the world. Let us pray that light and a miracle of healing will come to our benighted, mortally wounded, suicidal civilisation.kairosfocus
December 21, 2010
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molch,
Has it ever ocurred to you that “the good” is simply that which which confers fitness advantages?
Why would a fitness advantage be "good"?Clive Hayden
December 21, 2010
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#23 VJ My main point is to refute Tallis's argument: The worst reason for not believing in God (though the least obviously bad), is that there is no evidence for His existence. This is a bad reason for atheism because no-one can agree what would count as evidence. I am not clear whether you agree with Tallis. It seems to me that the only good reason for believing or not believing in something is the status of the evidence. Indeed a reasonable definition of evidence might be along the lines of "something which gives you a good reason to believe in something else".markf
December 20, 2010
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I agree with Tallis that the God of the Old Testament is morally capricious, but why do so many people then disbelieve in God instead of updating their understanding to something more consistent with their own moral compass? As to the existence of evil, this has never been a problem for me. Most of the evil of this world is caused by us. It seems obvious that we must become moral and worthy beings by our own choice. Otherwise, we would be immature babies in need of constant supervision. God wants us to grow up. AS to natural suffering, the things is that this world is a place where physical bodies are vulnerable and death the sure end, the release of the soul from the body. We're here for good reason, but death is not a tragedy.avocationist
December 20, 2010
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allanius (#14) Thank you for your post. You write:
First of all, if we are talking about the God of the Bible, "God is love," not intellect. Thomas was quite wrong on that one. We are all aware, of course, that the notion that God is intellect came from Plato and Aristotle, not the Bible? That you will not find one single statement in the Bible to the effect that intellect is the essence of God? Not one?
How about this one? "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1.) Yes, the Bible does tell us that God is love (1 John 4: 8, 16). But it also tells us that God is truth. Jesus Himself said, "I am the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6). In John 15:26 and John 16:13, he refers to the Spirit of Truth. And 1 John 1:5 tells us that "God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." By intellect I simply mean: that which understands truth. God's understanding is perfect; hence God is the Supreme Intellect, just as He is the Supreme Good. His essence is both knowledge and love: He is that Being whose nature it is to know and love Himself perfectly, A consequence of this is that He knows and loves everything else perfectly. And finally, how about these verses, from Psalm 119? "And do not take the word of truth utterly out of my mouth, For I wait for Thine ordinances." (Ps. 119:43) "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Thy law is truth." (Ps. 119:142) "Thou art near, O LORD, And all Thy commandments are truth." (Ps. 119:151) "The sum of Thy word is truth, And every one of Thy righteous ordinances is everlasting." (Ps. 119:160) I hope that helps clear up any misunderstandings between us.vjtorley
December 20, 2010
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VJT: Thanks. the price tag of the rejection tactic, though may be reductio ad absurdum. G PS: Just added a turtles all the way down vicious infinite regress worldview diagram.kairosfocus
December 20, 2010
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Heinrich --One wonders, then, about all the innocents God destroyed (e.g. all the infants killed in the massacres ascribed to him, e.g. The Flood, or Sodom & Gomorrah). Innocents die today still via disease or natural disasters albeit I suspect the greatest killer of them remains the will of man. I guess if you are a materialist you may think physical death is the greatest tragedy and if you are one looking for an excuse to hate God you will point to this and say "see, I am good because I disapprove." For a Christian the death of an innocent isn't a tragedy for the innocent since all who are physically born are fated to physically die. The tragedy is the heartbreaking pain to those who loved him. The greater tragedy, of course, is never to have loved him in the first place, and to consider his existence the result of an ultimately pointless series of random events is absolutely evil, but a materialist would probably not quite get that.tribune7
December 20, 2010
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markf (#10) Thank you for your post. I agree on the need for common ground between believers and non-believers, when reasoning about God's existence. The classical arguments for God's existence (e.g. the Five Ways) take as their starting point certain evident facts about the world - e.g. the occurrence of change, or of causation, or of things that go out of existence, or of grades of excellence, or of laws of Nature that are about something. Intelligent Design arguments start from the existence of complex specified information in Nature. The next step is the tricky part: agreeing on what counts as an explanation, and where to stop in one's demand for explanations. One thing I recall reading nearly thirty years ago, when I came across Germain Grisez's Beyond the New Theism, is that one should continue to ask a question until and unless it becomes apparent that there is something wrong with doing so. Grisez argued that there is nothing obviously wrong with asking why the cosmos exists, given that it is contingent; hence we are entitled to infer a necessary Being. From studying Intelligent Design, I have also learned a lot about abductive logic: when faced with competing explanations of a given fact, it is rational to adopt the best explanation of that fact. I agree, however, that a lot more work needs to be done on the subject of epistemology and religious claims. This will be the subject of a future post of mine.vjtorley
December 20, 2010
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Ilion (#8): One could believe in the God of classical theism without believing in the God of the Bible. That's an intellectually consistent position. However, historically speaking, the notion of such a God was largely derived from Biblical teachings about God, combined with Greek philosophical ideas. Personally, I doubt very much whether the notion of such a God would have been arrived at, in the absence of the Bible.vjtorley
December 20, 2010
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Heinrich: You ask a very good question about infants killed in massacres attributed to God. It's funny - I was just reading the Biblical account of the death of the firstborn of Egypt this morning, in Exodus 12. What a coincidence! Here's my take. The only reason why God could conceivably intend the death of an infant is to spare it from an even worse fate that would otherwise have befallen it, had it lived. This is of possible relevance to the the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, as the people of those cities lived in a very depraved society in which children would subjected to various kinds of sexual abuse. However, it does not help us with the Flood or the death of the firstborn of Egypt. With regard to these two events, there are only two possibilities: (1) they were sent by God; or (2) they weren't. If they were sent by God, then since they cannot be construed as acts of rescue, and since the children were innocent victims, they must have been killed in a manner that would befit a moral Deity. They must have died instantly and painlessly. God could have accomplished this by simply shutting down their nervous systems, so they felt nothing. As He maintains everything in existence, this would be a very easy thing to do - all He had to do is withhold His usual co-operation from creatures. Thus saving the children from a painful death wouldn't have required a positive act on His part (i.e a miracle), but merely a negative one. The other possibility is that these events were not sent by God, but were natural events. Maybe the death of the firstborn of Egypt was an unusually severe plague. And maybe the Flood was a cometary impact that caused high tidal waves all around the world, drowning people in coastal areas. In that case, God's intention would not have been to kill people, but to deliver certain people whom He specially chose (Noah and his family in the case of the Flood; the Israelites in the case of the plagues of Egypt) from a catastrophe. The real miracle, then, would not have been that large numbers of people died, but that a few were supernaturally delivered. Not being a Scripture scholar, I'm reluctant to adjudicate between the two views. I realize, of course, that there are passages in Scripture which seem to indicate that the Flood and the plagues of Egypt were sent by God as a punishment, which creates difficulties for the second view. Then again, a superficial reading of Scripture also suggests that God hardened Pharaoh's heart - but not even Orthodox Jews (who are firm believers in free will) take those passages at face value. Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. Hope that helps.vjtorley
December 20, 2010
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kairosfocus Thank you for your kind comments. By the way, I'm not a Professor. I just have a Ph.D. in philosophy, that's all. I entirely agree with your remarks about inferences. One person's modus ponens is another's modus tollens, as they say, and a determined atheist will certainly try to deny premises that lead to theism. I've just been having a look over at your 101 Web page. There's lots of very interesting stuff there, which I'd recommend that readers have a look at. Here's the link: http://nicenesystheol.blogspot.com/2010/11/unit-2-gospel-on-mars-hill-foundations.html#u2_bld_wvu Thank you once again.vjtorley
December 20, 2010
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RkBall and sbk: Well-spotted. I've made the necessary editing changes. Thank you.vjtorley
December 20, 2010
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"Moreover, in formulating his doctrine of univocal predication, Scotus was not[?] opposing the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas, but those of the theologian Henry of Ghent."sbk
December 20, 2010
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allanius: "We are unhappy; we would not be unhappy unless we were conscious of a self-existent “good” of happiness; therefore “the good” exists. Has it ever ocurred to you that "the good" is simply that which which confers fitness advantages?molch
December 20, 2010
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RKBall, The MOST pleasant surprise in my life was when God was there for me in a time of need for me. Therefore since God is real and is indeed the source of all Good, then the definition of the most extreme source of trauma that could visit a person would be to be separated from God, i.e. from the source of all that is good. That is why I am eternally grateful for, and accepting of, Christ's redeeming work on the cross: General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy, and the Shroud http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5070355/bornagain77
December 20, 2010
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"The final bad argument for atheism is that it traumatizes people, but Tallis has no time for this one either:" Please modify this sentence to clarify the "it". I believe you mean "religion", or "belief in God", and not, as the immediate antecedent would suggest, "atheism". Thanks for a thoughtful post, brother.RkBall
December 20, 2010
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“The notion of God is defensible”? Sure. We are unhappy; we would not be unhappy unless we were conscious of a self-existent “good” of happiness; therefore “the good” exists. See? That was easy, (Okay—I borrowed.) First of all, if we are talking about the God of the Bible, “God is love,” not intellect. Thomas was quite wrong on that one. We are all aware, of course, that the notion that God is intellect came from Plato and Aristotle, not the Bible? That you will not find one single statement in the Bible to the effect that intellect is the essence of God? Not one? In fact the story of the fall of man can be read to mean that intellect is specifically not the essence of God. They were tempted to believe that the knowledge of good and evil would make them “like God.” This knowledge is exactly what the philosophers had in mind when they used the term “intellect,” or judgment, which was supposed to help them determine what is good. But this knowledge did not make them like God; instead it exposed their nakedness by revealing the difference between God and them, which is their mortality (“you will surely die”). This suggests, for one thing, that to be “like God” is not at all what the Greek philosophers imagined it to be. They claimed that God was intellect and tried to glorify themselves through the power of judgment, but this same power divided them between the analytic and synthetic methods of describing the good. “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise. The intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” Secondly, just because Professor Tallis published his argument for atheism in Philosophy Now doesn’t mean that it isn’t jejune. The “ontological monstrosity” tack is too silly for words. What do we care if Professor Tallis’s deistic sensibilities are offended by a personal God? And he gives himself away with the “physics and politeness” crack. What, we’re supposed to accept some fantasy-land hierarchy now where Einstein obtains immortal transcendence over those who believe that equality with God is not something to be grasped and choose to remain meek and lowly and be kind to others? Hey Professor Tallis, ever heard of the Beatitudes? Oh, I forgot. One needs to have ears to hear the things of God—and those ears don’t generally attach themselves to people who full of their own counsel. Besides, you’ve been published in Philosophy Now! You’re practically immortal yourself! And the “infinite but specific” jive is equally unimpressive. The misguided claim that the Bible agrees with the Greek notion that God is infinite rests on exactly one verse: “His understanding is infinite.” Let’s set aside the rather important question of translation and cut to the chase: it is his understanding that is “infinite,” not God himself. The transcendent quality that the Bible ascribes to God is immortality, not infinity. Life, not intellect, is the “light of men,” and immortality does not cause the mischief that infinity causes in philosophy for the simple reason that the difference between mortal and immortal life is not absolute. Mortal life is not immortal, but it is still life. Immortal God can still be born in a mortal being, as we are soon to celebrate. The infinite, however, cannot be finite. “His understanding is infinite.” If God created the heavens and the earth, then modern science is now in the process of showing that this is most certainly true from the human point of view. What God made reveals an entirely different order of understanding from the finite thinking of men. The Bible speaks simple truth; the atheists are caught admiring themselves in a room of mirrors.allanius
December 20, 2010
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Shogun, I was thinking that in paganism the gods can be quite morally capricious. Of course, widespread belief in capricious gods do not bode well for the practice of science. So if an atheist is making the claim that a morally capricious god can't exist he is overlooking the "sez who?" argument, and of course it's the Bible that "sez who" so what we basically wind up with is a Bible-believing atheist which is highly illogical.tribune7
December 20, 2010
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Prof Torley: Interesting post, as usual. I note to MF, that as he will recall, ANY argument of form P => Q can be rejected if one is sufficiently unhappy with Q. Simply reject Q and argue NOT-Q so NOT-P, with perfect validity; even if one will then have to fend off the impacts of a reductio ad absurdum. So, indeed, what counts as evidence (= accepted facts + accepted chains of logic + accepted explanations) can indeed be a decisive issue. But, when we deal with major worldview issues, the problem is that alternative start points can be at least as problematic, or even far worse than that. So, we are back at the table of comparative difficulties across alternative worldview first plausibles, compared on factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory elegance and power: simple but not simplistic. Onlookers, my own 101 take on the matter is here. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 20, 2010
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I'm not sure why anyone would think that atheism benefits from an argument from evil; while it may be useful in an argument that a "good" god doesn't exist, theism itself doesn't define god as "good". IMO, an entirely "good" universe simply can't exist and be a rational universe, because good can only exist if it is contextualized by not-good. The existence of evil, or not-good, is necessitated by the principle of identity in any rational universe. Why is a rational universe necessary? For individuated entities to exist so they can know the good, and ponder and come to know god. Thus, evil is necessarily existent in any universe where one can rationally come to know and love god. If we were to exist as beings that simply "know" god, without having to come to know god or rationally accept god or choose good, then a rational universe wouldn't be necessary, and evil need not exist. You cannot choose god, or good, if nothing that is not-god, or not-good, exists to contextualize your choice. Thus, in order for free will to exist and be meaningful, not-good must exist, and what is at least experienced as not-God must exist.Meleagar
December 20, 2010
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The worst reason for not believing in God (though the least obviously bad), is that there is no evidence for His existence. This is a bad reason for atheism because no-one can agree what would count as evidence. This is a strange position. If lack of evidence is a poor argument for atheism because we cannot agree on what counts as evidence; then equally purported evidence is a poor argument for theism because we cannot agree on what counts as evidence. If we are ruling out evidence then what basis can there be for any belief either way? If we can't agree on what counts as evidence then what we need to do is discuss what is acceptable evidence and try to find some common ground.markf
December 20, 2010
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