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Proteins Fold As Darwin Crumbles

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A Review Of The Case Against A Darwinian Origin Of Protein Folds By Douglas Axe, Bio-Complexity, Issue 1, pp. 1-12

Proteins adopt a higher order structure (eg: alpha helices and beta sheets) that define their functional domains.  Years ago Michael Denton and Craig Marshall reviewed this higher structural order in proteins and proposed that protein folding patterns could be classified into a finite number of discrete families whose construction might be constrained by a set of underlying natural laws (1).  In his latest critique Biologic Institute molecular biologist Douglas Axe has raised the ever-pertinent question of whether Darwinian evolution can adequately explain the origins of protein structure folds given the vast search space of possible protein sequence combinations that exist for moderately large proteins, say 300 amino acids in length.  To begin Axe introduces his readers to the sampling problem.  That is, given the postulated maximum number of distinct physical events that could have occurred since the universe began (10150) we cannot surmise that evolution has had enough time to find the 10390 possible amino-acid combinations of a 300 amino acid long protein.

The battle cry often heard in response to this apparently insurmountable barricade is that even though probabilistic resources would not allow a blind search to stumble upon any given protein sequence, the chances of finding a particular protein function might be considerably better.  Countering such a facile dismissal of reality, we find that proteins must meet very stringent sequence requirements if a given function is to be attained.  And size is important.  We find that enzymes, for example, are large in comparison to their substrates.  Protein structuralists have demonstrably asserted that size is crucial for assuring the stability of protein architecture.

Axe has raised the bar of the discussion by pointing out that very often enzyme catalytic functions depend on more that just their core active sites.  In fact enzymes almost invariably contain regions that prep, channel and orient their substrates, as well as a multiplicity of co-factors, in readiness for catalysis.  Carbamoyl Phosphate Synthetase (CPS) and the Proton Translocating Synthase (PTS) stand out as favorites amongst molecular biologists for showing how enzyme complexes are capable of simultaneously coordinating such processes.  Overall each of these complexes contains 1400-2000 amino acid residues distributed amongst several proteins all of which are required for activity.

Axe employs a relatively straightforward mathematical rationale for assessing the plausibility of finding novel protein functions through a Darwinian search.  Using bacteria as his model system (chosen because of their relatively large population sizes) he shows how a culture of 1010 bacteria passing through 104 generations per year over five billion years would produce a maximum of 5×1023 novel genotypes.  This number represents the ‘upper bound’ on the number of new protein sequences since many of the differences in genotype would not generate “distinctly new proteins”.  Extending this further, novel protein functions requiring a 300 amino acid sequence (20300 possible sequences) could theoretically be achieved in 10366 different ways (20300/5×1023). 

Ultimately we find that proteins do not tolerate this extraordinary level of “sequence indifference”.  High profile mutagenesis experiments of beta lactamases and bacterial ribonucleases have shown that functionality is decisively eradicated when a mere 10% of amino-acids are substituted in conservative regions of these proteins.  A more in-depth breakdown of data from a beta lactamase domain and the enzyme chorismate mutase  has further reinforced the pronouncement that very few protein sequences can actually perform a desired function; so few in fact that they are “far too rare to be found by random sampling”.

But Axe’s landslide evaluation does not end here.  He further considers the possibility that disparate protein functions might share similar amino-acid identities and that therefore the jump between functions in sequence space might be realistically achievable through random searches.  Sequence alignment studies between different protein domains do not support such an exit to the sampling problem.  While the identification of a single amino acid conformational switch has been heralded in the peer-review literature as a convincing example of how changes in folding can occur with minimal adjustments to sequence, what we find is that the resulting conformational variants are unstable at physiological temperatures.  Moreover such a change has only been achieved in vitro and most probably does not meet the rigorous demands for functionality that play out in a true biological context.  What we also find is that there are 21 other amino-acid substitutions that must be in place before the conformational switch is observed. 

Axe closes his compendious dismantling of protein evolution by exposing the shortcomings of modular assembly models that purport to explain the origin of new protein folds.  The highly cooperative nature of structural folds in any given protein means that stable structures tend to form all at once at the domain (tertiary structure) level rather that at the fold (secondary structure) level of the protein.  Context is everything.  Indeed experiments have held up the assertion that binding interfaces between different forms of secondary structure are sequence dependent (ie: non-generic).  Consequently a much anticipated “modular transportability of folds” between proteins is highly unlikely. 

Metaphors are everything in scientific argumentation.  And Axe’s story of a random search for gem stones dispersed across a vast multi-level desert serves him well for illustrating the improbabilities of a Darwinian search for novel folds.  Axe’s own experience has shown that reticence towards accepting his probabilistic argument stems not from some non-scientific point of departure in what he has to say but from deeply held prejudices against the end point that naturally follows.  Rather than a house of cards crumbling on slippery foundations, the case against the neo-Darwinian explanation is an edifice built on a firm substratum of scientific authenticity.  So much so that critics of those who, like Axe, have stood firm in promulgating their case, better take note. 

Read Axe’s paper at: http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.1

Further Reading

  1. Michael Denton, Craig Marshall (2001), Laws of form revisited, Nature Volume 410, p. 417
Comments
So I ask, do you think those 18 important mutations (plus all the others which are present in the other HARs) are perfectly explainable as the result of Darwinian evolution in primates? That they don’t exceed Behe’s limit?
A very long post before admitting that the 18 mutations took place in non-coding DNA. In general, which kind of DNA shows the most mutations -- protein coding or non-coding? I was asking for Behe's opinion. I haven't read every word he's written, but I think he makes a distinction between mutations that are potentially lethal, and mutations that are expressed as viable variations in phenotype. I would certainly agree that trying to repeat a specific sequence of 18 mutations would be futile, but no mainstream biologist would claim that you can predict specific sequences of mutations. Mutations do not occur because they're needed or because they're leading to some cool new structure.Petrushka
July 4, 2010
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veils this is how I wrote it up for future reference: This following article shows that over 1000 "orphan" genes, that are completely unique to humans and not found in any other species, and that very well may directly code for proteins, were stripped from the 20,500 gene count of humans simply because the evolutionary scientists could not find corresponding genes in primates. In other words evolution, of humans from primates, was assumed to be true in the first place and then the genetic evidence was directly molded to fit in accord with that unproven assumption. Thus evolution was proven to be true because evolution was first assumed to be true: Human Gene Count Tumbles Again - 2008 Excerpt: Scientists on the hunt for typical genes — that is, the ones that encode proteins — have traditionally set their sights on so-called open reading frames, which are long stretches of 300 or more nucleotides, or “letters” of DNA, bookended by genetic start and stop signals. This method produced the most recent gene count of roughly 25,000, but the number came under scrutiny after the 2002 publication of the mouse genome revealed that many human genes lacked mouse counterparts and vice versa. Such a discrepancy seemed suspicious in part because evolution tends to preserve gene sequences — genes, by virtue of the proteins they encode, usually serve crucial biological roles.,,, To distinguish such misidentified genes from true ones, the research team, led by Clamp and Broad Institute director Eric Lander, developed a method that takes advantage of another hallmark of protein-coding genes: conservation by evolution. The researchers considered genes to be valid if and only if similar sequences could be found in other mammals – namely, mouse and dog. Applying this technique to nearly 22,000 genes in the Ensembl gene catalog, the analysis revealed 1,177 “orphan” DNA sequences. These orphans looked like proteins because of their open reading frames, but were not found in either the mouse or dog genomes. Although this was strong evidence that the sequences were not true protein-coding genes, it was not quite convincing enough to justify their removal from the human gene catalogs. Two other scenarios could, in fact, explain their absence from other mammalian genomes. For instance, the genes could be unique among primates, new inventions that appeared after the divergence of mouse and dog ancestors from primate ancestors. Alternatively, the genes could have been more ancient creations — present in a common mammalian ancestor — that were lost in mouse and dog lineages yet retained in humans. If either of these possibilities were true, then the orphan genes should appear in other primate genomes, in addition to our own. To explore this, the researchers compared the orphan sequences to the DNA of two primate cousins, chimpanzees and macaques. After careful genomic comparisons, the orphan genes were found to be true to their name — they were absent from both primate genomes. This evidence strengthened the case for stripping these orphans of the title, "gene." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080113161406.htm The sheer, and blatant, shoddiness of the science of the preceding study should give everyone who reads it severe pause whenever, in the future, someone tells them that genetic studies have proven evolution to be true.bornagain77
July 4, 2010
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@bornagain77 (#199) Born, what do you mean when you say darwinian theory cannot explain something? A. darwinism has failed as an explanation Or B. Darwinism should be excluded from being used as an explanation because it's somehow biased against ID? I'm asking because the success indicated in the the paper you quoted seems to suggest [B] Specifically, you quoted:
If either of these possibilities were true, then the orphan genes should appear in other primate genomes, in addition to our own. To explore this, the researchers compared the orphan sequences to the DNA of two primate cousins, chimpanzees and macaques. After careful genomic comparisons, the orphan genes were found to be true to their name — they were absent from both primate genomes. This evidence strengthened the case for stripping these orphans of the title, “gene.”
Then appear to complain that it Darwinism was successful but somehow excluded ID.
The evidence was literally molded directly by neo-Darwinism with no consideration given to ID
veilsofmaya
July 4, 2010
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correction I meant, I wonder if Dr. Hunter has seen this article,,,bornagain77
July 4, 2010
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@bornagain77 (#177) You wrote;
veils please address the topic of the thread
Again, are you suggesting the inability of solving protein folding problems by any means has no bering on “account[ing] for the origination of a single protein?” Did you not write?:
I like this tidbit you had veilsofmaya: (perhaps a strange reflection of the possibility that the machinery of DNA itself may actually function using quantum search algorithms [3]). It would not surprise me in the least if this were true since I hold the Designer invented/invents quantum mechanics as well.
veilsofmaya
July 4, 2010
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gpuccio, you are not going to believe the shoddy science this article on orphan genes reveals: Human Gene Count Tumbles Again - 2008 Excerpt: Ironically, the way genes are recognized has triggered much of the confusion over the human gene count. Scientists on the hunt for typical genes — that is, the ones that encode proteins — have traditionally set their sights on so-called open reading frames, which are long stretches of 300 or more nucleotides, or “letters” of DNA, bookended by genetic start and stop signals. This method produced the most recent gene count of roughly 25,000, but the number came under scrutiny after the 2002 publication of the mouse genome revealed that many human genes lacked mouse counterparts and vice versa. Such a discrepancy seemed suspicious in part because evolution tends to preserve gene sequences — genes, by virtue of the proteins they encode, usually serve crucial biological roles. But like it or not, the 25,000 DNA sequences were already listed in the catalogs of human protein-coding genes, and skeptics had no systematic way to remove them. “At that point, no one had gone through the gene catalogs with a fine-toothed comb to find evidence that they weren’t valid,” said Michele Clamp, first author of the study and senior computational biologist at the Broad Institute. Far from blatant mistakes, non-gene sequences can masquerade as true genes if they are long enough and happen by chance to fall between start and stop signals. Despite having gene-like characteristics, these open reading frames may not encode proteins. Instead, they might have other functions or possibly none at all. To distinguish such misidentified genes from true ones, the research team, led by Clamp and Broad Institute director Eric Lander, developed a method that takes advantage of another hallmark of protein-coding genes: conservation by evolution. The researchers considered genes to be valid if and only if similar sequences could be found in other mammals – namely, mouse and dog. Applying this technique to nearly 22,000 genes in the Ensembl gene catalog, the analysis revealed 1,177 “orphan” DNA sequences. These orphans looked like proteins because of their open reading frames, but were not found in either the mouse or dog genomes. Although this was strong evidence that the sequences were not true protein-coding genes, it was not quite convincing enough to justify their removal from the human gene catalogs. Two other scenarios could, in fact, explain their absence from other mammalian genomes. For instance, the genes could be unique among primates, new inventions that appeared after the divergence of mouse and dog ancestors from primate ancestors. Alternatively, the genes could have been more ancient creations — present in a common mammalian ancestor — that were lost in mouse and dog lineages yet retained in humans. If either of these possibilities were true, then the orphan genes should appear in other primate genomes, in addition to our own. To explore this, the researchers compared the orphan sequences to the DNA of two primate cousins, chimpanzees and macaques. After careful genomic comparisons, the orphan genes were found to be true to their name — they were absent from both primate genomes. This evidence strengthened the case for stripping these orphans of the title, "gene." After extending the analysis to two more gene catalogs and accounting for other misclassified genes, the team’s work invalidated a total of nearly 5,000 DNA sequences that had been incorrectly added to the lists of protein-coding genes, reducing the current estimate to roughly 20,500. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080113161406.htm Can you believe that gpuccio? The evidence was literally molded directly by neo-Darwinism with no consideration given to ID at all,,, truly remarkable,, I wonder if Dr. Hunt saw that.bornagain77
July 4, 2010
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@bornagain (#90) You wrote:
But you do seem to think yourself expert in this area, whereas I have my reservations as to your expertise,
Born, take the following analogy. Imagine someone claimed "An internal composition engine cannot get over 200mpg because the spark plug is connected to the crankshaft" Clearly, you don't need to be an automotive engineer to realize this claim is unwanted. First, not all internal combustion engines even use a spark plug. One example is diesel engines. Nor are they actually "connected" to the crankshaft when are used. So, despite lacking the knowledge to deign a car from the ground up, you can clearly dismiss this claim as being unsupported. Note that in no way have you make a positive claim that cars *can* get over 200mpg in the process. It's unnecessary. I've essentially done the same thing to your claim that "..I do not see protein folding to be amendable to quantum computing…" However, at least the claim above makes a specific goal, 200mpg. while you've used the term "amendable" which is very vague.veilsofmaya
July 4, 2010
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Petrushka: Does Behe accept common descent of mammals? I believe he does. And so do I. By the way, I have noticed that you quote in #112 the same paper I quoted in #107. That's really deep attunement!gpuccio
July 4, 2010
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veils please address the topic of the threadbornagain77
July 4, 2010
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Petrushka: among the confused mass of "arguments" you accumulated in your last posts, I will try to clarify some points which could be of interest for those who read (probably not for you). Chimps and humans are different. That's a fact. For instance, the central nervous system of humans is much more complex, and, as all of us should know, it can do many important things that the chimps brain cannot do. Can you agree on that? Or is it a point you disagree upon? Let's pretend you agree. Now, if the genomes of chimp and humans are really so similar, how can we explain the differences that really exist? We simply can't. So, either the genomes are not enough to explain, or they are not really similar. I suppose both things are true. The slowing down of the appearance of new protein domains is not, as you say, "completely consistent with the slower rate of reproduction in mammals". If it were only a question of reproduction rate, how would you explain that half of the existing domains were already present in LUCA? Was LUCA reproducing at an immensely higher rate than bacteria? There is a much simpler explanation. To build up the first living cells (LUCA, bacteria, archea, maybe they are more or less the same thing) a huge quantity of new basic level information was necessary. Hundreds of different proteins were needed where there was none. So, the "process which can find functional proteins" (let's call it this way, not to be partial to any model) had to find a lot of them in a relatively short time, otherwise life could never have begun on our planet. After that, new protein domains were found by the PWCFFP eacxh time it was necessary: IOW, each time a new biochemical function was needed, which could not be obtained by the existing protein domains, or by a higher level combination nof them. The slowing down as evolution goes on has a very simple explanation: most functional protein domains (if not all) have already been found and exploited: the basic proteome is almost complete, and most basic biochemical functions can be accomplished with the existing superfamilies, expanding and specializing the existing folds. But then, how can we explain the huge variety and differences that we find among, for instance, metazoa? One answer could be that, even if only few new domains have emerged in the higher metazoa, still pertoeins can vary much in function, even remaining in the existing domains. That's perfectly true, obviously, but I don't believe that's the main answer. The main answer is that, while basic protein functionality has been mostly found and exploited in the first steps of evolution, higher level of information and function have been accumulating, and have become incresingly complex. I mean, obviously, all the "procedures" which use proteins as their final effectors: IOW, the regulatory network. Now you may say: where is it? That's a good question, because we don't really know much about that. But it is somewhere. Maybe in epigenetic factors. Maybe in non coding DNA, in introns, in transposons, in pseudogenes, so adversed by official darwinism. Maby somewhere else. But, while we don't really know in detail where that regulatory information is, we certainly know what it does: a) It controls the individual transcriptomes of about 10^14 cells (in humans) according to specific plans, sorting out form 20000 protein genes and many more possible proteins those which will be actively transcribed in each cell, their sequence and relative abundance of transcription and translation, their metabolism and catabolism, and so on. The transcriptome is highly specific for each cell type, and varies in the same cell type according to the functional moment, and to specific responses to the environment, to other cells, to general signals (hormones, cytokines), and so on. b) It determines and structures and controls the general body plan, and the specific morphology of systems, organs, tissues. c) It organizes and directs and controls the development and functioning of very complex interactive systems, aimed to modulate the adaptation to the external world, such as the immune system. d) And above all, and especially in humans, it determines, controls and regulates the specific morphology, architecture and functioning of the central nervous system, for a total of 10^11 cells and 10^14 ordered connections, allowing us to implement all the complex functions we know so well (no reason to list them all here), and especially, for tyhe first time in the natural history of our planet, to express our conscious intelligent representations in the form of abundant, rich and creative CSI. That's the scenario. Not being a complete fool, I don't believe that all that regulatory information is concentrated in 49 HARs, however fascinating they can be, or in small variations of the existing proteome. So, just to be clear, the point is not that mammals (or other higher metazoa) are just not so new or newly complex, just because most metazoa have a "similar" protein coding genome of about 10000 - 20000 genes. C. elegans, that little worm, one of the simplest metazoa, has 20100 protein coding genes, more or less like us. Amazing, isn't it? Metazoa are vastly different one from the other becasue they differ in regulatory information. That's the real answer, the only possible answer. HAR1, for instance, is probably an RNA gene, and its function is probably regulatory. But, whatever it is, the point is that it has 18 substitutions vs the chimp gene, and that those substitutions are believed to be very important for us to be human. Maybe true, maybe not. But let's assume it's true. So I ask, do you think those 18 important mutations (plus all the others which are present in the other HARs) are perfectly explainable as the result of darwinian evolution in primates? That they don't exceed Behe's limit? I don't.gpuccio
July 4, 2010
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@bornagain77 (#103) You wrote:
veils, why the concern?
Why the lack of concern? I welcome people calling me out on being ignorant since I do not want to reach conclusions based on things I do not understand. Apparently you don't care one way or the other. You wrote:
you see the evidence one way, I see it another.
Not only are you not denying any of my points, you seem to be affirming them. If when you mean, the "other way" you "see" evidence is... - Making vague goals - Quoting from and linking to only the summaries of papers - Making comments that reveal you do not have the foundation necessary to interpret these incomplete papers - Making vague conclusions - Repeating the above - Retreating to claims of personal attacks when someone calls you out on it … then yes. It would seem we're in complete agreement. You clearly do see the evidence differently. Which is precisely my point.
I do not think your reading of the evidence to be coherent, yet you are adamant that it is. This is all fine and well as that is how science progresses.
Then you should have no problem addressing my points. My guess is that you simply can't, which you apparently think is just "fine." Again, this is a sure fire way for science *not* to progress.
Thus, instead of trying to convince you why I see the evidence differently than you do, I am willing to wait until more evidence is available. Why are you not willing to wait?
Born, again you're the one who made the claim, not me. I've made numerous clarifications to this effect, which you continual ignore. I'm not arguing for the positive. I'm arguing that your 'opintion' does not appear to be supported by the papers you've quoted and linked to. However, if you're basing this conclusion on some other "evidence", then please present it.
why in the world are you so concerned with this fairly esoteric point? To me it seems very peculiar that you would completely ignore the fact that we cannot account for the origination of a single protein, which is the main topic of this thread by the way.
So why make the claim in the first place? Are you suggesting the inability of solving protein folding problems by any means has no bering on "account[ing] for the origination of a single protein?"
In fact since petrushka conceded that he had no clue where proteins came from, I would appreciate if you’d focus you energy on that.
Are you conceding the claim that "[you] do not believe protein folding to be amendable [(what ever that means)] to quantum computing" is vague and not supported by the papers you quoted and linked to?veilsofmaya
July 4, 2010
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you know petrushka this quote of yours that you keep bringing up,,,: "I’d like to point out once more that gaps arguments tend to evaporate over time, with research." ,,,,seems to be a pure fabrication on your part from my point of view because the more I learn of the evidence the greater, and more impassable, the gaps (canyons?) have become for evolution: "Now, after over 120 years of the most extensive and painstaking geological exploration of every continent and ocean bottom, the picture is infinitely more vivid and complete than it was in 1859. Formations have been discovered containing hundreds of billions of fossils and our museums now are filled with over 100 million fossils of 250,000 different species. The availability of this profusion of hard scientific data should permit objective investigators to determine if Darwin was on the right track. What is the picture which the fossils have given us? ... The gaps between major groups of organisms have been growing even wider and more undeniable. They can no longer be ignored or rationalized away with appeals to imperfection of the fossil record." Luther D. Sunderland, Darwin's Enigma 1988, Fossils and Other Problems, 4th edition, Master Books, p. 9bornagain77
July 4, 2010
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how do you answer his point on orphan genes in humans?
I would recommend giving up on an explanation and calling it a miracle. Actually, there are countless research papers on the origin of orphan genes. Here's one that doesn't require a subscription: http://www.biochemsoctrans.org/bst/037/0778/0370778.pdf I'd like to point out once more that gaps arguments tend to evaporate over time, with research. If ID were a football team, it would capitulate every time it got behind. I can't help but wonder what kind of mindset would actively oppose research. All these supposed dreadful problems for evolution are being uncovered by mainstream researchers, and yet they welcome them and look for more.Petrushka
July 4, 2010
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And speaking about Behe’s limit and humans, what do you think of the 49 HARs, with 18 nucleotide substitutions only in HAR1? Would you like to explain that, just as a start?
I'm not a molecular biologist. Does HAR1 code for a protein?Petrushka
July 4, 2010
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It is true that the rate of appearance of new domains has significantly slowed down, practically stopping at the level of mammals, and especially humans. As I have already commented, that shows probabvly that the search for lower level information is practically comnplete.
And that would be completely consistent with the slower rate of reproduction in mammals. Since rapid divergence is a characteristic of a depleted ecosystem (following a mass extinction) one would not expect much invention in th epresent. or near past. Mostly small variations on existing proteins. Which leads me to as you the same question I asked BA77. Are you aware of anything in Behe's Edge of Evolution, he seems to accept common descent in mammals, and specifically cites evidence from molecular evolution. So which is it? Molecular evolution is too fast, or is it too slow. I'm confused about the ID position. Suppose, for the sake of argument, ZI conceded that the origin of protein domains was something akin to a miracle: how does that affect mammalian evolution? Do the variations found among proteins in mammals violate the Edge, and if so, can you find this argument in Behe?Petrushka
July 4, 2010
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petrushka, when I read gpuccio, it seems that gpuccio is bringing up some very hard hitting points that are totally demolishing your argument, and when I read your post, you do not even answer his points, but instead you are merely flailing meaningless words about trying to find something, anything, to connect to. If I were the referee in a boxing match I would give you a standing count so you could clear your head. So please focus on the task in front of you, how do you answer his point on orphan genes in humans?bornagain77
July 4, 2010
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Petrushka: "A feature the Front Loader apparently forgot to install." Well of course. The blind, ever so random, indeterminate "watchmaker" is more clever and purpose-driven than any intelligent being humans are capable of inventing.JPCollado
July 4, 2010
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Myself I want to know exactly why, If neo-Darwinism is suppose to be this great powerhouse of innovation and diversity, why in blue blazes should material processes be stymied by its failure to explain the origination of just one single protein.
The history of the gaps argument is really amusing to the people whose work is filling the gaps. Whether it be missing links or simple, evolving chemical replicators. At some point, possibly in the next 20 years, we will see synthetic replicators produce functional proteins. By the way, how are you coming in finding some statement from Behe that the protein differences among mammals have no evolvable pathway? I understand that you are not obligated to research this for me, but I bet a shiny nickel that if you could find such a statement, you'd be happy to post it. Last time I looked, Behe had no argument against mammalian evolution. ID seems to have retreated to the pre-Cambrian, where the evidence has been erased over time.Petrushka
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Petrushka: I would like to remind you that, according to the paper that I cited in our past discussions, about 50% of protein domain superfamilies were probably present in LUCA (whatever it was: a single organism or a pool of organisms exchanging genes by HGT). You don't want to address the origin of those domains, and therefore the problem of OOL, and for the moment I will humour you. But the remaining 50% of original protein domains superfamilies originated after LUCA, in the course of thet "evolution of the species" which is so dear to darwininsts and to you. And those domains originated in prokaryotes and eukaryotes, and in metazoa too. It is true that the rate of appearance of new domains has significantly slowed down, practically stopping at the level of mammals, and especially humans. As I have already commented, that shows probabvly that the search for lower level information is practically comnplete. Obviously, that does not mean that new proteins have not arisen in the latest stages too, because proteins are a higher level aggregation of information than simple domains. Anyway, I would like to know if you renpounce to explain the origin of protein domains not only at OOL, but also in the course of successive evolution, or if you believe that the darwinian causal model is capable to explain at least that part. For me, it is clear that if new domains have appeared throughout the whole history of life on our planet, very rapidly at furst, then at a slowing down rate, the simplest explanatio (Occam, Occam!) is that the same causal model should be able to explain the whole proteome appearance, and frankly I can't see why we should postulate two different mechanisms for the same process (one for OOL, and one for later evolution). Regarding the existence of completely new proteins in humans, the answer is obviously not easy. The following paper is interesting, and brings about again a theme which is very dear to me, the role of transposons: "Evolution of primate orphan proteins" Macarena Toll-Riera, Robert Castelo, Nicola´ s Bellora and M. Mar Alba Abstract "Genomes contain a large number of genes that do not have recognizable homologues in other species. These genes, found in only one or a few closely related species, are known as orphan genes. Their limited distribution implies that many of them are probably involved in lineage-specific adaptive processes. One important question that has remained elusive to date is how orphan genes originate. It has been proposed that they might have arisen by gene duplication followed by a period of very rapid sequence divergence, which would have erased any traces of similarity to other evolutionarily related genes. However, this explanation does not seem plausible for genes lacking homologues in very closely related species. In the present article, we review recent efforts to identify the mechanisms of formation of primate orphan genes. These studies reveal an unexpected important role of transposable elements in the formation of novel protein-coding genes in the genomes of primates." And speaking about Behe's limit and humans, what do you think of the 49 HARs, with 18 nucleotide substitutions only in HAR1? Would you like to explain that, just as a start?gpuccio
July 4, 2010
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So random and so meaningless, it’s amazing it produces so much cohesion and purposefulness.
Yep, but what it doesn't produce are specific molecular changes to order. And given large and sudden environmental changes, it doesn't necessarily produce survival. A feature the Front Loader apparently forgot to install.Petrushka
July 4, 2010
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Thus it appears that you concede that the paper you cited by Szostak is refuted? I didn't see Szostak claiming to have a time machine. It's true he's looking for pathways to self-assembly, but even ten years later he has unraveled all the mysteries. I'm quit comfortable with the possibility thait this won't happen in my lifetime or his. The reason mainstream science makes progress is that the people involved make testable hypotheses and test them. It's slow and painful. And much harder than plugging numbers into statistical formulas.Petrushka
July 4, 2010
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Petrushka: "Evolution ... doesn’t have goals or a direction." So random and so meaningless, it's amazing it produces so much cohesion and purposefulness.JPCollado
July 4, 2010
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veils, why the concern?, you see the evidence one way, I see it another. I do not think your reading of the evidence to be coherent, yet you are adamant that it is. This is all fine and well as that is how science progresses. Thus, instead of trying to convince you why I see the evidence differently than you do, I am willing to wait until more evidence is available. Why are you not willing to wait? Of what importance is it to you if I believe it impossible for computers to precisely mimic what happens with a single protein with fidelity? why in the world are you so concerned with this fairly esoteric point? To me it seems very peculiar that you would completely ignore the fact that we cannot account for the origination of a single protein, which is the main topic of this thread by the way. Why are you not puzzled by this fact instead of being completely sidetracked with man's inability to mimic protein folding with fidelity? Myself I want to know exactly why, If neo-Darwinism is suppose to be this great powerhouse of innovation and diversity, why in blue blazes should material processes be stymied by its failure to explain the origination of just one single protein. Since that is in fact the main topic of the thread I would appreciate you addressing that point. In fact since petrushka conceded that he had no clue where proteins came from, I would appreciate if you'd focus you energy on that.bornagain77
July 4, 2010
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petrushka you state: "I thought I said some time ago that I have no idea how or when the protein domains arose." Thus it appears that you concede that the paper you cited by Szostak is refuted? Do you mind thanking gpuccio for teaching you that you were in error? Since that is the lead off paper of the thread, and the main point to be established, I am quite happy with the development.bornagain77
July 4, 2010
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GP, Thank you for that analysis. I am reading and re-reading the papers now. Much appreciated. Has Petrush or Maya responded to your comments yet?Upright BiPed
July 3, 2010
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@bornagain77 (#90) You wrote:
veils whatever I say, you do not think my opinions worthy, thus you think me ignorant of this topic as you yourself have clarified.
First, you haven't addressed any of my points. Instead, you seem to be trying to turn this into a personal attack. Second, you have it completely backwards. I think your claim is an just that, an 'option', because the papers you reference do not appear to support your claims. Given that you do not seem to realize this, the logical conclusion is that you do not actually understand the subject at hand.
And indeed I have never claimed to be an expert in this particular area of quantum mechanics as you seem to think I have
And I’m pointing out that posting links and quoting papers is *not* a substitute for not understanding the subject at hand. That you continue to quote and link to more papers, which also fail to support your position, implies you think otherwise. Again, if it's just your option or a belief, then why bother quoting or linking to papers in the first place?
But you do seem to think yourself expert in this area, whereas I have my reservations as to your expertise, but none-the-less from my own personal reading of the evidence, not from your personal reading of it, a reading which I do not agree with, I do not see protein folding to be amendable to quantum computing whereas you do.
Born, Can you explain the difference between solving all NP-complete problems and solving a specific NP-complete problem using quantum algorithms? I'm asking because understanding this difference is key to interpreting the 2007 The Limits of Quantum Computing paper you cited. In addition, the link you provided to this paper only gave access to the summary. As such, it appears your "personal reading of the evidence" is limited to a few a paragraphs, which you lack the necessary foundation to understand. When I point this out, you do not dispute this or address any of my specific points. Instead, you merely repeat the claim that I'm belittling you or that I've insulted you by claiming your stupid. Again, If you want to scale back your claim to a “hunch” or a mere ‘belief’, that’s one thing. But continuing to claim the papers you referenced support your position, is something quite different. Since you've refused to address the issues I've raised and retreated to claims personal attacks, it's unlikely further discussion will not be fruitful.veilsofmaya
July 3, 2010
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I'm somewhat confused by your train of reasoning. At some points you stress the differences between chimps and humans, and at other points you argue that proteins haven't evolved much. There are two big questions at stake: 1. Are the differences in proteins nested? Do you find sequences that don't fit a pattern of descent? 2. Are there protein sequences containing changes too great to be accomodated by evolution, that is, differences beyond the Edge?Petrushka
July 3, 2010
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I thought I said some time ago that I have no idea how or when the protein domains arose. Could be magic. Or not. My questions are about evolution. Do you have evidence that specific classes, mammalia for example, contain differences in proteins that are beyond Behe's edge?Petrushka
July 3, 2010
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Nearly ten links and not one relevant to the question of whether the differences between human and chimp proteins ar beyond Behe's Edge. Does Behe accept common descent of mammals?Petrushka
July 3, 2010
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Petrushka,
Evolution doesn’t produce changes according to demand. It doesn’t produce changes according to need. It doesn’t search for solutions. It doesn’t have goals or a direction.
It's so elusive it has to be believed.Clive Hayden
July 3, 2010
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