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PZ Myers throws down a gauntlet to ID

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Yesterday, Intelligent Design critic and creationist basher, P.Z. Meyers, posted what he considers to be a real scientific challenge for ID proponents on his Pharyngula blogsite. The main thrust of his challenge is outlined in this Youtube video:

So, has Myers indeed stumbled upon a true significant challenge for ID?  Or, has he simply stumbled, as he so often does, over his own misconceptions and metaphysics?  I vote for the latter.


First off, he stumbles into what Phillip Johnson called Berra’s Blunder referring to Darwinist Tim Berra’s book Evolution and the myth of creationism,1990, pg 117-119, where Berra writes “If you compare a 1953 and a 1954 Corvette, side by side, then a 1954 and a 1955 model, and so on, the descent with modification is overwhelmingly obvious. This is what paleontologists do with fossils, and the evidence is so solid and comprehensive that it cannot be denied by reasonable people.” As Johnson points out, Berra completely misses the point that similarities between cars are still the result of common design.

“Of course, every one of those Corvettes was designed by engineers. The Corvette sequence – like the sequence of Beethoven’s symphonies to the opinions of the United States Supreme Court – does not illustrate naturalistic evolution at all. It illustrates how intelligent designers will typically achieve their purposes by adding variations to a basic design plan. Above all, such sequences have no tendency whatever to support the claim that there is no need for a Creator, since blind natural forces can do the creating. On the contrary, they show that what biologists present as proof of “evolution” or “common ancestry” is just as likely to be evidence of common design.”
P. Johnson, Defeating Darwinism by opening minds, 1997, pg 63.

In other words, homolgy doesn’t necessarity imply evolution, or exclude design. In his challenge, Myers is relying on the same sort of blunder, as he is assuming that any homology automatically eliminates design. My challenge back to him would be to show scientifically why that is the case.

ID proponent and Darwinism critic, Cornelius G. Hunter points out the hidden metaphysical blunder Myers is making as well. On his Darwin’s God blogspot, Hunter writes “While there are several problems with the challenge, the disguised religion comes around the 1:15 mark, [in the Youtube video], where the criterion of homology is explained. Don’t worry if you are not familiar with the concept of homology. The bottom line is that the challenge uses random design as a test for whether a structure evolved. Specifically, if there is any non random pattern detectable, then it must not have been designed; instead, it must have evolved.” Hunter goes on to say “This is today’s version of a test that dates back to Daniel Bernoulli and Immanuel Kant in the eighteenth century. The idea is that God would not design according to a gratuitous pattern.” In other words, this yet another version of the old “God wouldn’t have done it this way” argument. It would be interesting to see Myers scientific explanation for how he knows what God would or would not do.

Then there’s Myers’s implied Philosophical Naturalism, as he writes in the blog “The argument has long been highly asymmetric. Scientist find a gene, and what do they do? Figure out what it does, and dig into the databases to find its relatives within that organism or in other species. Creationists claim genes can’t be created without the intervention of a designer, and what do they do? Nothing.” In other words, Myers merely assumes evolution is the only explanation for homology, and his criticism of ID is that they aren’t busy digging into databases looking for those homologies, that is to say a naturalistic explanation for the data. Thus, according to Myers, doing “nothing”, means “not looking for only undirected, natural causes” as opposed to actively trying to understand the information content of the genetic code, tracing the informational pathways and/or trying to determine when, where and how the information was imparted into the system and how an intelligence may have been involved to bring this about. All that, per Myers, is doing “nothing”.

Comments
Joseph:
Now if we do determine design- IOW once the design inference is given a “Go” then we set out to TRY to answer the questions a design inference produces- the who, how, where, when.
Given that ID allows for any type of designer (including supernatural omnipotent ones), how would one do that? From an ID point of view, wouldn't "the-designer-did-it" always be the most parsimonius explanation?Hoki
May 17, 2009
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Jerry:
My answer to Myers is that they all are designed. Out.
Ha ha. Take that, PZM! This is the best answer I've seen in this discussion so far.Mapou
May 17, 2009
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Diffaxial, The prediction thta arises from ID is the SAME that arises from archaeology, forensic science and SETI- Intelligent agencies tend to leave behind traces of their involvement. If we fail to see such traces or the traces we do observe are demonstrated to be obtainable via nature, operating freely, the design inference is disconfirmed. As for bald declarations- that is all your position is. Ya see as I have said many times you cannot even account for the evolution of eyes/ vision systems beyond some simplified narrative. As for PZ all he has to do is start supporting his position and ID will fall. It is that simple.Joseph
May 17, 2009
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Joseph @ 42:
I answered the question of what ID predicts and what it would take to disconfirm the design inference. That you choose to continue to ignore that just further expoases your agenda of willfull ignorance
I don't recall that any of your responses have satisfied the request for a prediction arising from a necessary entailment of ID, such that ID is put at risk of disconfirmation. Something analogous to what PZ Myers attempted, but (by your collective lights) failed to achieve. However, I tend to ignore your posts due to your preference for argument by bald declaration and frequent use of personal insults (such as the above), so I may have missed it.Diffaxial
May 17, 2009
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Cabal, Copernicus, Galileo, Newton and Kepler all understood that science was a way to understanding "God's" Creation.Joseph
May 17, 2009
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Sorry, I wrote heliocentric instead of geocentric...Cabal
May 17, 2009
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Cabal:
What resources are required?
Money, people, time- for starters. "On the Origin of Species..." was published 150 years ago. Yet the evidence for the (alleged) evolution of the eye/ vision system is the same today as it was then. And that is even though we know much, much more about eyes and vision systems than Darwin did. The evidence is the same- that is we observe varying degrees of eyes/ vision systems in living organisms and we "know" the original population9s) didn't have either. One thing is detecting design in mechanical devices; it is obvious. What about in non-mechaniscal devices? What is it that prevents glaciers from depositing the massive stones that form Stonehenge?
But how do we detect design presumably having taken place millions of years, thousands of generations back in time?
Knowledge gained via experience. That is we have observed nature, operating freely and we have also observed what designing agencies can do with nature. We take that knowledge and apply it to what we are investigating. Then we form an inference. And as with ALL scientific inferences it can either be confirmed or refuted with future knowldge. However the science of today does not and cannot wait for what the future may or may not bring. As for the utility of ID- as I have been saying for years- under the ID premise: Living organisms are NOT reducible to matter, energy, chance and necessity. They are NOT reducible to their chemical make-up. The "genetic information" is NOT the sequence. The sequence is just necessary to carry out the instructions. Those instructions that are NOT visible via a microscope (just as the information on a computer disk is not visible by a microscope). And only under an ID framework would scientists even start to look for such a thing. "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of Intelligent Design."Joseph
May 17, 2009
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Joseph,
it is a bit nonsensical to ask IDists to answer all the questions BEFORE allowing ID the resources required to answer them.
What resources are required? One thing is detecting design in mechanical devices; it is obvious. But how do we detect design presumably having taken place millions of years, thousands of generations back in time? Is it possible, have you got any suggestions?Cabal
May 17, 2009
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#35, Frost122585:
rvb6, evidence for design is everywhere. Design was the scientific paradigm before non-teleological evolution monopolized the education establishment. The goal of ID is to lay out in scientific terms exactly how we know if something is designed.
We are all waiting for that to happen, how far off is it? In the meantime, to what extent is it appropriate to refer to ‘design’ as a scientific paradigm before modern scientific methodology began to be used? Going back a couple of centuries, the teleological paradigm used to be that the world was created in six days and the planets orbiting in perfect spheres around the sun. When scientists began to view the world objectively they found a disorderly universe working according to universal laws instead of idealized divine order. Against fierce resistance from proponents of the teleological worldview, the modern scientific view eventually became universally accepted and I presume very few people today subscribe to the antiquated teleological, heliocentric paradigm. Maybe we are in a similar situation today except the subject is origins of the species instead of whether the physical universe mirrors a perfect, divine order? Is it possible that as the now abandoned, antique cosmology was founded on the teleological paradigm, the application of a teleological paradigm on biology eventually also may be found to be in error? Evidence for design is claimed to be everywhere so I guess there is something wrong with my brain since I am unable to see it. Is there any cure for that?Cabal
May 17, 2009
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jerry,
Suppose the comments about which genes were designed were contradictory, does that make ID empty? First, one could be right and one could be wrong or secondly, they both could be right and it is just the context of the argument that has to be understood.
Good point. And based on the comments so far, it sounds like individual genes could be a borderline case---maybe they could come about naturally, maybe not. How about throwing specified complexity at this problem? That'll give those Meyersbots something to chew on.herb
May 17, 2009
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Diffaxial-- Another great irony is that it now seems PZ is trying to falsify ID — which some evos like to claim can’t be falsified. . .The real irony is that your collective responses illustrate why they are correct. Are you referring to the non-PZ evos or our collective responses?tribune7
May 17, 2009
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hazel:
As an example, suppose I find a rock that looks like it might be an arrowhead.
Suppose you do.
If I found this in a jumble of rocks in a creek I wouldn’t have much to go on. But what if I found the rock in a cave where there was evidence of campfires dating to 1500 years ago . some pottery shards, and some striking stones known to be used for creating arrowheads. Then I would have some evidence about when, who and how, and that would add quite a bit to a possible determination of design.
Yes hazel investigators use all the evidence at their disposal. But let's say you found your arrow-head in that cave. Could that arrow-head be from an attacking enemy which would mean all the evidence in the cave is useless as it did not belong to the arrow-toting person? So if we took your approach we would be attributing stuff to the arrow-maker that was not even part of his/ her life.
Similarly, when the fire investigator works to determine arson he doesn’t determine arson first and then look for gas cans.
What happens when there aren't any gas cans? Ya see fire investigators try to find out if the fire could have started unintentionally. And then once they have exhausted that possibility do they then turn to a possible arson. IOW they try to figure out if nature, operating freely can account for the fire.
Looking for evidence of who, when, and how is an integral part of trying to determine design in fields like archeology and forensic science.
That is false for the reason provided. One may NEVER know who, how, when or where but one canb still dtermine design from nature, operating freely.Joseph
May 17, 2009
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Joseph writes, “hazel YOU need to focus on the claims of YOUR position.” My position on what? I was just making a remark on the issue of determining design. As an example, suppose I find a rock that looks like it might be an arrowhead. (I did a little bit of archeology work as an undergraduate, for what it’s worth.) If I found this in a jumble of rocks in a creek I wouldn’t have much to go on. But what if I found the rock in a cave where there was evidence of campfires dating to 1500 years ago . some pottery shards, and some striking stones known to be used for creating arrowheads. Then I would have some evidence about when, who and how, and that would add quite a bit to a possible determination of design. Do you agree with this analysis of this situation. Similarly, when the fire investigator works to determine arson he doesn't determine arson first and then look for gas cans. Looking for evidence of who, when, and how is an integral part of trying to determine design in fields like archeology and forensic science.hazel
May 17, 2009
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" It seems to me that finding evidence about “who, how, where, [and] when” is part of trying to determine whether something was designed in the first place." These are interesting by ancillary questions. They are not needed to determine a high probability of design. But they are certainly interesting questions which belies the stupidity of rvb8's comment at #37. The probability of design could be close to one and the answers to some of these questions could move it almost to one but they are not necessary to make it a high probability in the first place.jerry
May 17, 2009
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"Again the emptiness of “design” and “agency” vis the generation of testable predictions is apparent." An empty comment. Again argument by stupidity. Suppose the comments about which genes were designed were contradictory, does that make ID empty? First, one could be right and one could be wrong or secondly, they both could be right and it is just the context of the argument that has to be understood. I stand by my argument and please if you want to refute it try offering empirical evidence instead of empty rhetoric. It is ID that uses science to put forward its claims, not fatuous words which is what we get from anti ID proponents.jerry
May 17, 2009
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hazel:
It seems to me that finding evidence about “who, how, where, [and] when” is part of trying to determine whether something was designed in the first place. It’s not just “first determine design, and then answer those questions.
I take it that you don't have any investigative experience. Ya see in the absence of direct observation or designer inpuet, the ONLY possible way to make ANY scientific determination about the who, how, when or where, is by studying the design in question. But FIRST you must determine design is present.
As I and others have asked, can you provide examples of ID advocates studying life in order to determine ““who, how, where, [and] when” the designing was done?, or if not, provide examples about what types of investigation one would do to answer those questions?
hazel YOU need to focus on the claims of YOUR position. I am sure IDists will start taking on those questions once ID is accpeted and the resources are expanded. IOW it is a bit nonsensical to ask IDists to answer all the questions BEFORE allowing ID the resources required to answer them. After all your position doesn't answer squat and it has all the resources it needs.Joseph
May 17, 2009
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Joseph writes,
Now if we do determine design- IOW once the design inference is given a “Go” then we set out to TRY to answer the questions a design inference produces- the who, how, where, when.
It seems to me that finding evidence about “who, how, where, [and] when” is part of trying to determine whether something was designed in the first place. It’s not just “first determine design, and then answer those questions. Also, Joseph writes,
2- study it so that you can understand it. 3- understand it so that you can try to answer those new questions.
As I and others have asked, can you provide examples of ID advocates studying life in order to determine ““who, how, where, [and] when” the designing was done?, or if not, provide examples about what types of investigation one would do to answer those questions?hazel
May 17, 2009
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Is there any scientific data which demonstrates that a gene can arise via undirected processes where there wasn't any genes before? Why isn't the following paper the "death knell" for undirected evolution? Waiting for two mutations: with applications to regulatory sequence evolution and the limits of Darwinian evolution With new genes you also need a new binding site for that gene. The above paper talks about getting two mutations- what aboput building a new binding site from scratch? Is it even possible? I am sure it is but how much time would be required? And not only is a new binding site required but so are a promoter, enhancer, repressor, etc. And even then if the new gene starts pumping out another protein that protein has the potential of getting in the way of an already existing and functioning system.Joseph
May 17, 2009
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Diffaxial, I answered the question of what ID predicts and what it would take to disconfirm the design inference. That you choose to continue to ignore that just further expoases your agenda of willfull ignorance. Now if we do determine design- IOW once the design inference is given a "Go" then we set out to TRY to answer the questions a design inference produces- the who, how, where, when. And the ONLY way to do that is by studying the design in question. That is how it works in forensics. That is how it works in archaeology and that is how it works with SETI. 1- determine design 2- study it so that you can understand it. 3- understand it so that you can try to answer those new questions. That said experience has taught us that it does matter to an investigation whether or not that which is being investigated arose via agency involvement or nature, operating freely. And as for "nature, operating freely", well that cannot account for the origin of nature...Joseph
May 17, 2009
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Corvettes! Score another metaphor for Chatty PZ. The inability of Darwinoids to produce anything but colorful analogies reminds us of a certain famous ratiocinator and his complaint that theory produces “nothing but metaphors.” The same force of unifying resistance that makes simple, elegant theories like NS possible also divides them from the complex realm of actual experience, where manmade metanarratives have no meaning. Sorry, PZ—the train has already left the station (to use your kind of lingo). The real research in the life sciences today—where real men simply look at how nature works and don’t try to force any kind of ideology on it or stamp their feet—all indicates design. Evolution never shows up except to make a rare appearance in the discussion session wearing its pajamas and seeming out of place. Evolution is never found in the methods of these reports for one very simple reason: it cannot be proven.allanius
May 17, 2009
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Frost122585 @ 31:
Why would any one particular gene be designed? Design is the some total of multiple parts or processes working towards a whole. That is like saying “show me one dot of paint on the mona lisa that is deisgned. You cant go by that because you are comitting the fallacy of false comparasion.
Jerry @ 36:
My answer to Myers is that they all are designed. Out. There exist no evidence of any gene arising by naturalistic processes thus, the conclusion is they all arose by design. Now I am being a little bit facetious but not much.
Frost says that single genes aren't designed. Jerry says nearly all were designed. Again the emptiness of "design" and "agency" vis the generation of testable predictions is apparent. Tribune7 @ 7:
Another great irony is that it now seems PZ is trying to falsify ID — which some evos like to claim can’t be falsified.
The real irony is that your collective responses illustrate why they are correct.Diffaxial
May 17, 2009
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"wonderful, and when all is proved designed stop all together? Marvellous ’science’ this!" What a marvelously stupid comment. First there will never be an "all proved." Second, it never stopped thousands of ID believing scientists from continuing on in the past. Argument by stupidity is all that is available for the anti ID proponents. First, Myers stupid challenge and then, this inane comment.jerry
May 17, 2009
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Folks: UB has put his finger on the money:
There is absolutely nothing in the field of physics (or biology) that says matter should organize itself into energy metabolizing structures that begin recording their existence in a (randomly emergent) digitally encoded language based on a (randomly emergent) symbol system that uses a code convention (which is not contingent on physical laws) as a means to communicate vital information and meaning between discrete physical objects within the structure. It’s the very existence of recorded language, information, and meaning that is the real reason for such meaningless challenges.
We know, per direct observation and experience, that intelligent agents do create complex, specifically functional digital information-processing entities. We know as well, that trial and error to get to initial functionality, is a most unlikely to succeed mechanism. (And, we have many calculations, simple or complex that show why. In effect a random walk that starts at an arbitrary configuration -- for an entity requiring 1,000+ bits of information storage capacity -- is far too weak a strategy to be probabilistically plausible on the gamut of the observed cosmos. And, life forms as observed start out at ~ 600,000 - 1 million bits.) As to Berra's blunder, it's point is obvious. Berra lined up a sequence of changes that showed a progressive family resemblance, and claimed that such homologies showed evolution; in a context hat suggested that the explanation was spontaneous, random change plus natural selection. But in fact, he chose an example of a known designed sequence. This suffices to show that the logic of homology fails, unless we know in advance that here was no designer present. That is, there is an issue of question-begging at work so soon as homologies and "progress" are used as evidence that design was not necessary to produce such evident progress. Worse, the case is a demonstration that intelligent agents are known to be capable of creating a sequence of information-rich functional structures that show homologies. Has an unambiguous case of spontaneous change per random variation plus natural selection producing such complex entities requiring 1,00+ bits of information storage capacity been demonstrated? Plainly, not. And so, Mr Myers' "challenge amount"s to an attempt to shift the unmet burden of proof. One that has been unmet for 150 years. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 17, 2009
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" The goal of ID is to lay out in scientific terms how we know if something is designed": Really? And if you are 'scientifically' sucessful, and come to the conclusion that something, or some physiology is designed, what then? Stop and move on to prove that some other thing is designed and then stop, and move on; wonderful, and when all is proved designed stop all together? Marvellous 'science' this!rvb8
May 17, 2009
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My answer to Myers is that they all are designed. Out. There exist no evidence of any gene arising by naturalistic processes thus, the conclusion is they all arose by design. Now I am being a little bit facetious but not much. The ID challenge has always been show us the money. Until the naturalists can, then the burden is on them. We know that intelligence can create the genes. We do not know that naturalistic processes can. Show us naturalistic processes creating the genes. That does not say that genes do not get modified over times and will not vary by different species or that some genes will produce proteins that behave somewhat differently from organism to organism or may in fact take on a new use. But it does say that most if not all arose by design. If I am wrong and I do not think I am, then why in all these years and in all the books on evolution and in all the snide comments made about IDiots are there not any examples. So let's discuss why they are not all designed and see if we can find any examples. If no answers are forthcoming, then they are all designed. I expect we will find a couple but even if we do that does not a summer make.jerry
May 16, 2009
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rvb6, evidence for design is everywhere. Design was the scientific paradigm before non-teleological evolution monopolized the education establishment. The goal of ID is to lay out in scientific terms exactly how we know if something is designed. If is no secret that we are talking about things like living creatures. The evidence is in the improbability of such creatures ever raising without an intelligent guiding force. The digital code of DNA, the molecular machines within the cell- not to mention the fact that the origin of life flys in the face of physical principles of thermodynamics. There is plenty of evidence for design everywhere. Where ID is now is that stage where it is formulating and articulating the specifics of the theory and trying to present that along with negative critical analysis of non-teleological evolution to sway the establishment and the people as a whole that ID- as an engineering science - could be a more fruitful scientific template.Frost122585
May 16, 2009
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Why is it that when scientists come up with evidence of evolution, the ID crowd say; "this is not possible because...". Why not come up with evidence of design instead, as a counter argument? That is, instead of trashing the other sides evidence, discover some of your own, that is tangible, arguable, or at least serious.rvb8
May 16, 2009
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Hazel #30 and myself #1 both asked for examples of: "tracing the informational pathways and/or trying to determine when, where and how the information was imparted into the system and how an intelligence may have been involved to bring this about" Any offers? If not, a description of how you might set about this task?Mark Frank
May 16, 2009
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Not to mention their probabilistic relationship to a fitness landscape.Frost122585
May 16, 2009
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Well first of all the first questions is inane. Why would any one particular gene be designed? Design is the some total of multiple parts or processes working towards a whole. That is like saying "show me one dot of paint on the mona lisa that is deisgned. You cant go by that because you are comitting the fallacy of false comparasion. Put it like this... Q.When one is doing a puzzle, what is the most IMPORTANT piece?" A. The picture. He is trying to use a red herring argument about some kind of singled out "detail" which he thinks he has already set up so that IDists- or the theory of ID cant win. But there is a multiplicity effect of not "one gene" but all of the genes necessary for a particular function to exist which need to be taken into account.Frost122585
May 16, 2009
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