Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

PZ Myers: Vestigial means “reduced in size or utility compared to homologous organs in other animals” Huh?

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Here, in “VESTIGIAL: Learn what it means!” (Pharyngula, Scienceblogs)

The appendix in humans, for instance, is a vestigial organ, despite all the insistence by creationists and less-informed scientists that finding expanded local elements of the immune system means it isn’t. An organ is vestigial if it is reduced in size or utility compared to homologous organs in other animals, and another piece of evidence is if it exhibits a wide range of variation that suggests that those differences have no selective component. That you can artificially reduce the size of an appendix by literally cutting it out, with no effect on the individual (other than that they survive a potentially acute and dangerous inflammation) tells us that these are vestigial. More.

But wouldn’t his definition make all kinds of organs and limbs vestigial in most life forms?

Also:

That you can artificially reduce the size of an appendix by literally cutting it out, with no effect on the individual (other than that they survive a potentially acute and dangerous inflammation) tells us that these are vestigial.

But this makes no sense. A doctor can remove a man’s gangrenous leg without anyone getting the idea that the leg was vestigial.

Readers, isn’t the whole concept of “vestigial” organs as evidence for the evolution of life forms a bad idea?

No sooner is a can of worms opened than the worms form an escort party and lead us to a bigger one.

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Comments
Dionsio- I am ID! :) Or at least CLAVDIVS seems to think so.Joe
September 26, 2014
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#140 gpuccio
the simple concept of ID is that only a designer can generate dFSCI (or CSI, as you like). That can certainly be disconfirmed. But it was never disconfirmed. The simple concept of neo Darwinism is that dFSCI can be generated by non design systems. All the available facts disconfirm that concept.
:)Dionisio
September 26, 2014
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Posts #140 and #141 confirm my deeply grounded perception that gpuccio has much more patience than I do. I guess the day that virtue was given I wasn't there on time to pickup my portion, but gpuccio got a bonus too :)Dionisio
September 26, 2014
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#138 CLAVDIVS
Dionisio @ 136 Joe asks @ 128 ‘what “well established science” does ID attack?’ Then Joe immediately attacks...
Please, take a few things into account when reading my comments: English is not my primary language, I make mistakes very often, my reading comprehension is kind of poor, my communication skills are almost nonexistent, hence I don't know how to transmit an idea to another person (ask my wife if you want to confirm this), my IQ score is about the same as my age, whatever that means, when a friend or relative say a joke at a weekend family gathering, I usually get it by Monday, only after my wife explains it to me. All that said, here's the part of your comments I don't quite understand: Do you see the bold words in the above quoted text, which was copied from your post? Does your comment seem to imply that those two words are equivalent? Did I get it wrong? BTW, that's exactly what I tried -unsuccessfully- to bring up to your attention in my previous post #136. Please, clarify this. Thank you.Dionisio
September 26, 2014
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the bystander:
IMHO, Neither ID nor Evolution has figured out how life started and spread.
Well ID isn't about the "how". That comes after design has been detected and studied- that is what ID is about. And we are having issues with the "how" of some artifacts, like Stonehenge, which is by far more simple than a living organism.Joe
September 26, 2014
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CLAVDIVS:
So, if you’re unable to place any constraints on your designer concept, then it follows your designer concept is not scientifically testable.
Newton's four rules of scientific investigation place constraints on science such that it cannot rule in favor of an intelligent designer unless there is a requirement for one. So if purely materialistic processes can account for something we don't consider the design inference (unless some other evidence comes up).Joe
September 26, 2014
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CLAVDIVS- Just because you are gullible enough to believe that diatribe doesn't mean it is scientifically well established. As I said those people have no idea what makes an organism what it is. Genetic similarities are easily accounted for by a COMMON DESIGN. Also CONVERGENCE is also a player. BTW there are geneticists who doubt the genetic evidence points to universal common descent.Joe
September 26, 2014
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CLAVDIVS- No one is testing the designer concept. The design exists and can be tested. And if purely materialistic processes can account for something then your "designer concept" never comes up.Joe
September 26, 2014
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gpuccio @ 140 I asked you at @ 122 to name something impossible for your designer concept. I still haven't had an answer. Hence my comments about "nothing being impossible". If you can't tell me anything that's impossible for the designer, I will assume nothing is, and therefore the designer concept is not scientifically testable.CLAVDIVS
September 26, 2014
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CLAVDIVS: I am afraid I don't understand. Whoever said that "nothing is impossible for the designer"? You said that, not I. What I said is: "ID theory requires only one thing that the designer must be able to do: inputting original functional information into the object. Nothing else is needed. Therefore, I really don’t understand your point." So, I still don't understand. You say: "If you want to go into the real world and test a concept scientifically, the concept needs to be one that could possibly be disconfirmed. If a concept cannot possibly be disconfirmed by empirical evidence, then its not scientifically testable." Well, the simple concept of ID is that only a designer can generate dFSCI (or CSI, as you like). That can certainly be discomfirmed. But it was never discomfirmed. The simple concept of neo darwinism is that dFSCI can be generated by non design systems. All the available facts disconfirm that concept. So, what are your scientific conclusions?gpuccio
September 26, 2014
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Andre @ 137 Citation please for Dr Craig Venter asserting that Darwin's chapter on rudimentary organs supports special creation and undermines Darwin's theory of descent with modification.CLAVDIVS
September 26, 2014
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Dionisio @ 136 Joe asks @ 128 'what “well established science” does ID attack?' Then Joe immediately attacks the well-established science that shows genetic evidence supports common ancestry. QED.CLAVDIVS
September 26, 2014
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CLAVDIVS.... Sez who? You? Dr Craig Venter disagrees....Andre
September 26, 2014
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#134 CLAVDIVS Did you really understand the question you quoted? It doesn't seem like you did. You may want to try again. That wasn't easy after all, was it? :) PS. BTW, it may help to try paying attention to the meaning of words.Dionisio
September 26, 2014
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Andre @ 131 Naughty, naughty Darwinists. Fie upon them for saying vestigial organs must have no function. Now we have got that out of the way, do you agree with gpuccio and drc466 that Darwin's original chapter on rudimentary organs, like blind eyes and flightless wings, supports his theory of descent with modification i.e. common ancestry and is difficult to explain by special creation. And if you don't accept common ancestry, what's the alternative, besides special creation?CLAVDIVS
September 26, 2014
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Joe @ 128
... what “well established science” does ID attack?
Let's see ...
The genetic evidence does not support a common ancestry- you don’t even know what makes an organism what it is and without that you cannot say anything, scientifically, regarding common ancestry.
QED. That was easy.CLAVDIVS
September 26, 2014
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gpuccio @ 125
ID theory requires only one thing that the designer must be able to do: inputting original functional information into the object. Nothing else is needed. Therefore, I really don’t understand your point.
My point is a simple one. If nothing is impossible for the designer, then this designer concept is compatible with every logically possible state of affairs. Such is not a concept that can be tested empirically, because no matter what observations you make, you can say "yup, designer wanted it that way". If you want to go into the real world and test a concept scientifically, the concept needs to be one that could possibly be disconfirmed. If a concept cannot possibly be disconfirmed by empirical evidence, then its not scientifically testable. There's nothing wrong with a concept that's not scientifically testable; that just means it need to be defended with metaphysical/philosophical arguments, not empirical ones. So, if you're unable to place any constraints on your designer concept, then it follows your designer concept is not scientifically testable.CLAVDIVS
September 26, 2014
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CLAVDIVS:
What I have been saying all along is that Darwin’s original argument – that rudimentary organs support descent with modification, and are difficult to explain by special creation – is just as strong as it has ever been.
Only if you ignore reality.Joe
September 26, 2014
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ClAVDIS. Who is arguing for special creation? The point is this and please take note, the Darwinist camp have used this as evidence for a long time as evidence for evolution because they have no function...... Now that they do have function as we have recently discovered they are still evidence for evolution although we've had to modify our view on what vestigial actually means! Heads I win tails you lose!Andre
September 26, 2014
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IMHO, Neither ID nor Evolution has figured out how life started and spread. Both theories have too many loopholes.the bystander
September 26, 2014
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Andre @ 123, 124 I'm not interested in defending whatever random things you dig up. What I have been saying all along is that Darwin's original argument - that rudimentary organs support descent with modification, and are difficult to explain by special creation - is just as strong as it has ever been. Complaining about how people have misused the term 'vestigial' (which Darwin never used, by the way) doesn't affect the strength of the argument one iota. gpuccio sees that. drc466 sees it too. Why can't you?CLAVDIVS
September 26, 2014
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CLAVDIVS- what "well established science" does ID attack?
What we actually observe, across a very good statistical sample of genetic and fossil evidence, is an extremely strong mathematical signal in the patterns of similarities and differences between organisms; namely, a branching pattern over time that confirms Darwin’s idea of descent with modification.
The genetic evidence does not support a common ancestry- you don't even know what makes an organism what it is and without that you cannot say anything, scientifically, regarding common ancestry. The similarities point to a common design and the differences point to different requirements.Joe
September 26, 2014
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CLAVDIVS:
Do you want to learn about the strongest case for common ancestry?
The strongest case for common ancestry is Theobald's "29+ evidences for macroevolution". However it is rife with errors, based on bias and totally untestable.Joe
September 26, 2014
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william spearshake- Please tell us how to know who the designer is (designers are) given just the design. Thanks. And if you cannot do so then please stuff it with the "cop out" crap. That said ID does NOT prevent anyone from trying to make determinations about the designer(s). It is a SEPARATE question from the determination of intelligent design. And if you had any investigative experience you would have known that. Also ID is NOT consistent with everything. That is just ignorant. We wouldn't even infer intelligent design if nature, operating freely, can produce whatever we are investigating- and yes, that includes life. That is how science operates. There has to be a requirement for a designer otherwise every death would be considered a murder. That means to refute any given design inference all you would have to do is take away the designer requirement by demonstrating unguided processes can produce it.Joe
September 26, 2014
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CLAVDIVS: ID theory requires only one thing that the designer must be able to do: inputting original functional information into the object. Nothing else is needed. Therefore, I really don't understand your point.gpuccio
September 26, 2014
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CLADVIS Defend it! http://www.darwinwasright.org/vestigial_structures.htmlAndre
September 26, 2014
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CLAVDIVS... Defend it..... http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/ Defend it..... http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/the-hind-legs-of-whales/ Defend it...... http://txtwriter.com/Backgrounders/Evolution/EVpage12.html There are a million more out there saying Vestigial = non functional...... Seriously man to what levels will you stoop to make yourself believe this nonsense that the meaning of the word should now somehow be changed or never really meant that?Andre
September 26, 2014
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gpuccio @ 120
... it is absolutely true that the nature of the designer is and must be fully open to empirical investigation.
Can you name something that ID proponents agree the designer could not possibly do, other than logically impossible things? If not, then there cannot really be a testable theory of ID, can there?CLAVDIVS
September 26, 2014
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Querius @ 119
The inescapable conclusion is that, without exception, every structure in any organism is a vestige of an earlier one, which has been adapted to a modern environment. All life on earth consists of collections of vestigial organs because they all evolved from earlier structures.
Exactly correct. Darwin, of course, never referred to "vestigial" organs; he called them "rudimentary, atrophied, or aborted" and spent a chapter on them which made it clear that they can have some function. The whole point of Darwin citing these rudimentary organs was to show how their existence naturally flows from his theory of descent with modification, whilst they are difficult to explain by means of the then prevalent theory of separate, intelligent creation of each species.CLAVDIVS
September 26, 2014
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william spearshake: There is no doubt at all that the nature of the designer is open for investigation. It is equally true that: a) The design inference in itself does not depend on the nature of the designer (except for those key qualities which define a designer: being a conscious intelligent purposeful agent). b) Any inference about the nature of the designer must be made from observable data, and not from ideologies of any kind. IOWs, the purpose is to understand the nature of the designer from data, after we have made a design inference, and not to support (or falsify) the design inference according to some ideological idea of who or what the designer should be (which is exactly one of the favorite "arguments" of our adversaries, in the form of "why should an omnipotent God do such and such?). So, provided that we understand that the design inference is based on the observation of complex functional information, and does not depend in any way on specific hypotheses about the nature of the designer, it is absolutely true that the nature of the designer is and must be fully open to empirical investigation.gpuccio
September 26, 2014
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