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RDFish Cannot Count to Three

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In a prior post RDFish starts off with a promisingly cogent observation:

We’re not arguing about “evolutionary adaptation”, but rather about the highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms we observe in organisms. Of course large populations and crossovers can help a bit with local optima, but saying these things will “tend to avoid” them is wishful thinking – there is just so much that can be assembled that way, which is why GAs come up with optimizations and not novel mechanisms. The important point, though, is not to argue about this in the abstract, because there is no way to demonstrate (yet) whether or not the combinatorial resources were sufficient or not.

Leading Mapou to respond:

Wow. RDFish is moving dangerously close to accepting the designer hypothesis (i.e., life requires consciousness)

To which RDFish responds indignantly:

HUH? Why in the world would you say that – I haven’t moved one iota in that direction, of course, because there isn’t a shred of evidence for it. I deny that evolutionary theory accounts for biological complexity, but that doesn’t lend any credence whatsoever to the notion that some conscious being thought up designs for all us creatures and built us somehow!

I am always amazed when one of our opponents reveals that the metaphysical blinders they are wearing restrict their vision to such a degree that they cannot see the blatantly obvious implications of their own conclusions.

Let’s lay it out step by step.

  1. Given our current understanding of causation, there are three and only three possibilities regarding the provenance of “highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms we observe in organisms.” The first two possibilities, which in combination are often referred to as “natural causes,” are law and chance, including a combination of the two.  The third possibility, Aristotle’s tertium quid, is the act of an intelligent agent.*

 

  1. The project of modern evolutionary theory is to demonstrate that the highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms we observe in organisms can be reduced to purely natural causes.

 

  1. The project of intelligent design is to demonstrate that intelligent agency is a better explanation for the highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms we observe in organisms.

 

  1. Modern evolutionary theory and ID are playing a zero sum game. If modern evolutionary theory is correct about the sufficiency of natural causes to account for the observations, ID would be falsified.  If ID is correct about the insufficiency of natural causes to account for the observations, that aspect of modern evolutionary theory would be falsified.

 

  1. In the comment above, RDFish denies that evolutionary theory currently accounts for biological complexity.

 

  1. Other things being equal, RDFish’s observation – to the extent it is true – undermines the standing of modern evolutionary theory.

 

  1. Since we are playing a zero sum game, it follows that Mapou is generally correct; RDFish’s observation supports a design approach to the extent it undermines a non-design approach to origins, even if RDFish himself does not understand it.

RDfish again:  “I deny that evolutionary theory accounts for biological complexity, but that doesn’t lend any credence whatsoever to the notion that some conscious being thought up designs for all us creatures and built us somehow!”

Uh, Fish, since it is one or the other, denying that one can explain the observations does tend to lend credence to the other (which is not to say that it establishes it, but it does tend in that direction).

 

__________

*There may, of course, be an unknown quartium quid (a fourth causal force in addition to law, chance and agency) that has escaped detection from the time of Aristotle to this moment.  That is why I qualify with “given our current understanding of causation.”  We do not know what we do not know, but if we must choose based on what we do know, there are only three choices.

Comments
Hi StephenB,
We have already established that law-like regularities exist. That is obvious.
Good - it's great when we agree about something!
I am asking how you know (or can know) that intelligent agents such as angels are not responsible for those regularities. I am asking how you (or scientists) can know that nature is responsible for the law-like regularities that are observed.
Again, I'm not interested in debating the whether scientific laws are the result of angels' activities. If you would like to discuss such things, perhaps another forum would be more appropriate.
Epistemology is on the table because all your objections against ID are epistemological.
No, my arguments are empirical. I accept realism and the scientific method, and point out that we have no empirical evidence that anything transcends physical cause. This means that any theory (such as ID) that assumes mental causation transcends physical cause cannot be empirically supported.
Our confidence in the existence of physical causality is based on a common sense interpretation of what we observe that cannot be confirmed by science. Right?
No, common sense is not the source of scientific results. Instead, we rely on observations that are within our uniform and shared experience.
In like manner, the existence of intelligent agents is a common sense interpretation of what we observe that cannot be confirmed by science. Right?
Again, common sense conclusions are often found to be wrong, and corrected by science. Common sense leads to - and derives from! - many fallacies and cognitive illusions. Pervasive examples include confirmation biases, the gamblers' fallacy, inferences to external agency as the result of ideomotor effects (cf. Ouija boards), and so on. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 7, 2015
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Hi Andre,
You’ve been harping on the issue of there not being any definition about what intelligent agents are, I just gave you one it does not mean I agree or disagree with it, just that it does exist.
Of course there are endless different definitions of "intelligence" - that is the problem. I categorized the various problems that these definitions pose for ID @24, above.
An intelligent agent can both encode and decode its environment.
In that case, intelligent agency has nothing to do with consciousness, and you would consider a modem to be an intelligent agent. Is that what you intended to say?
Secondly to claim that my question is a fallacy of decomposition and a false dichotomy you just have to demonstrate it as false, please do so I’m extremely eager for you to prove I’m wrong.
The first is not an empirical question, it's simply a matter of logical fallacy (i.e. that since chemical reactions can't concern themselves with truth, then a human being - if he consists only of chemical reactions - cannot concern himself with truth). The second - the false (or really, empirically unsupported) dichotomy - derives from your assumption that concern for truth is incompatible with (forms a dichotomy with) obeying the laws of nature.
If you can find any inanimate matter that defy the laws I’ll gladly concede so lets have it show me what stuff rocks dream about.
Huh? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 7, 2015
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RDFish:
We know that lawlike regularities exist – science has found many that we all agree on. Nobody argues that there are random events either.
Laws are not causes Mr. Fish. And chance is no cause either. If that's the sum total of your physical causes then you are in sad shape indeed.Mung
December 7, 2015
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RDFish
Yes, I did [answer my question]
No, you didn't.
– science demonstrates lawlike regularities and chance events, but not anything that transcends them.
We have already established that law-like regularities exist. That is obvious. I am asking how you know (or can know) that intelligent agents such as angels are not responsible for those regularities. I am asking how you (or scientists) can know that nature is responsible for the law-like regularities that are observed.
If you’d like to question science itself, and all of epistemology, perhaps you can find someone else to discuss that with.
Epistemology is on the table because all your objections against ID are epistemological. Accordingly, I would like for you to simply acknowledge that you have no way of knowing, given your hyperskepticism, what you claimed to know, namely that law/chance exists. Our confidence in the existence of physical causality is based on a common sense interpretation of what we observe that cannot be confirmed by science. Right? In like manner, the existence of intelligent agents is a common sense interpretation of what we observe that cannot be confirmed by science. Right?StephenB
December 7, 2015
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Hi RDFish:
The question relevant to ID is, does human intelligence transcend physical cause?
There isn't any evidence that laws and chance can produce it and there isn't even any way to test the claim. That you are too stupid to understand the implications of that proves that you do not belong in this discussion cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 7, 2015
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Hi RDFish:
It is you who dodged the question of what, exactly, you mean by “intelligent agency”.
That has already been answered. The fact that all you can do is be an infant proves that you don't have an argument. You must be the most willfully ignorant person, ever- well perhaps second to Zachriel. cheers. Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 7, 2015
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Hi RDFish:
What traits do all intelligent agents share?
The ability to manipulate nature for a purpose. Barry, feel free to use that answer and then watch RDFish choke on it as he has every other time. cheers, Virgil cainVirgil Cain
December 7, 2015
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RDFish You've been harping on the issue of there not being any definition about what intelligent agents are, I just gave you one it does not mean I agree or disagree with it, just that it does exist. What do I consider to be an intelligent agent? Here goes; An intelligent agent can both encode and decode its environment. Secondly to claim that my question is a fallacy of decomposition and a false dichotomy you just have to demonstrate it as false, please do so I'm extremely eager for you to prove I'm wrong. If you can find any inanimate matter that defy the laws I'll gladly concede so lets have it show me what stuff rocks dream about.Andre
December 7, 2015
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Hi Andre, Your link discusses purely deterministic algorithms. Is this really how ID defines agency?
Ask yourself this? Do chemical reactions concern themselves with truth or do they obey the laws of nature?
:-) This is called the fallacy of decomposition. ... and also false dichotomy. Extraordinary that you could fit two fallacies into a single statement! Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 6, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
You did not address my question:
Yes, I did - science demonstrates lawlike regularities and chance events, but not anything that transcends them. If you'd like to question science itself, and all of epistemology, perhaps you can find someone else to discuss that with. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 6, 2015
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RDFish
The question relevant to ID is, does human intelligence transcend physical cause? Nobody knows the answer to that question. We know that lawlike regularities exist – science has found many that we all agree on. Nobody argues that there are random events either. But as far as something that is neither random nor determined? There is no way to empirically show that anything – including human intelligence – belongs in that category.
Ask yourself this? Do chemical reactions concern themselves with truth or do they obey the laws of nature? You'll find the answer to this when you ponder the question......Andre
December 6, 2015
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RDFish What is an intelligent agent? http://www.mind.ilstu.edu/curriculum/ants_nasa/intelligent_agents.phpAndre
December 6, 2015
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Hi RD, You did not address my question: How do you "know" (your word) that the law-like regularities that we observe in nature are the effects of law/chance (as a category of causes)? How do you know, for example, that the solar system is not regulated by angels acting with law-like precision? How do you know that law/chance is real?StephenB
December 6, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: As far as we know, law and chance are all that there is. SB: If you are going to abandon reason and common sense, that is, if you are going to question the existence of intelligent agency, then why don’t you question the existence of law/chance as well?
Humans (and other animals) act in ways we call "intelligent". The question relevant to ID is, does human intelligence transcend physical cause? Nobody knows the answer to that question. We know that lawlike regularities exist - science has found many that we all agree on. Nobody argues that there are random events either. But as far as something that is neither random nor determined? There is no way to empirically show that anything - including human intelligence - belongs in that category. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 6, 2015
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Hi Barry Arrington:
Fish: You obviously believe that “intelligent agents” are ontologically distinct entities . . . Barry: Are you an intelligent agent Fish? If you answer “yes,” then you share my true warranted belief that intelligent agents are ontologically distinct entities. If you answer “no,” you are staggeringly stupid. Fish: Well, it turns out that science also needs objective and precise descriptions, even if people have intuitive notions about things. That is the reason that ID is a scientifically vacuous theory. Barry: And that, dear readers, is what we call a “dodge.” The fact that Fish felt he had to evade the question is answer enough.
It is you who dodged the question of what, exactly, you mean by "intelligent agency". Your response was to ask me if I am an intelligent agent, which obviously is no response at all. You dodged, then pretended it was me. That's called "projection", and you do it a lot.
Fish: You are confusing the science – which seeks concrete explanations that can be tested against evidence – with scientist’s personal motivations, which of course may well include the desire to prove or disprove religious claims. BA: You act as if the two can be separated.
Uh, you act as if they can't. I'm talking here about the science, not the motivation. The science seeks, as always, to provide empirical answers to empirically accessible questions. We cannot scientifically ask questions regarding the purpose of the universe, or the purpose of human beings, because we cannot state those questions in ways we can empirically investigate. We can, however, scientifically investigate how living things came to exist. So far, the answer is: Nobody knows.
And I will not waste further time on giving you definitions of that which was demonstrated.
Your demonstration is of something called a "human being". You aren't talking about human beings, though - you are talking about some abstract class of things, called intelligent agents, that include human beings. Your problem, though, is that you cannot provide an objective, empirical inclusion criterion for this class of things. If there are other intelligent agents aside from human beings, what characteristics must they share with humans, and what characteristics might they not share with humans? Again: What empirically accessible attributes do all intelligent agents have in common?
You admit that intelligent agency exists. How could you not. You’ve been given perfectly workable definitions many times, and you insist on rejecting them all. That says more about you than about the workability of the definitions.
The definitions fall into various types; what I've shown is that none of them serve the purpose required by ID. There are those which include attributes that cannot be scientifically investigated. For example, "the compliment of law + chance" or "neither random nor determined", which incorporate metaphysical assumptions. Then there are those which include empirically accessible attributes, but there is no empirically-based reason to believe that those attributes were possessed by whatever was responsible for the origin of life. Examples include use of general purpose language, or ability to solve novel mathematical problems. Other definitions include words that require clarification in the context of hypothetical non-human (even non-living) things. For example, one might suggest that intelligence requires foresight. The question in this context arises: If something is not conscious, can it be said to have foresight? What is your definition, Barry?
RDF: As far as we know, law and chance are all that there is. BA: Said an intelligent agent who, by the very act of writing that sentence, proved otherwise. Fish: Honestly, this single statement of yours would merit you an “F” in a freshman class in philosophy. Wow. BA: This freshman philosophy class of yours must be really tough if Aristotle himself would get an “F.” Or maybe “the Philosopher” is correct and you are wrong. I’m gonna go with that.
Aristotle was wrong about a lot of things, of course! Now, you believe you can dismiss the ancient and unsolved problems regarding ontology and determinism with this killer argument of yours? Your argument is: The fact that you write a sentence proves that you transcend physical cause. Now, people on all sides of this debate continue to write papers and books on the topic - you should tell them all to desist because you've solved the problem! Good grief.
And one of the questions that can be evaluated is whether the best explanation for a particular phenomenon is “goal directed teleology” or “natural causes.” Whole fields of inquiry (forensics, etc.) are based on the distinction that you insist on denying.
Still with the forensics analogy? Please. Forensic scientists find evidence of human activity (or perhaps in a stretch some other animal with opposable thumbs). If you asked a forensic scientist what an "intelligent agent" was, they would have no more notion of what that meant than you apparently do!! Don't dodge, Barry, just answer: What traits do all intelligent agents share? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 6, 2015
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As far as we know, law and chance are all that there is.
Oops, guess RDFish already answered that. So whatever happens it's the result of law and chance. I see...computerist
December 6, 2015
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Neither Law, nor Chance, are causes. Neither are their conjunction.Mung
December 6, 2015
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question for RDFish. If chance/law is well defined (and if it's not, could you please explain why?), and if "ID" simply meant "x as the result of NOT chance/law", would that be unreasonable in your mind? Thankscomputerist
December 6, 2015
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Hi RDFish:
But there is no evidence that RM&NS can produce intricate mechanisms, and no evidence that something “intelligent” was responsible for life.
And yet that evidence for ID has been presented. Strange, isn't it?
(I put “intelligent” in scare quotes because there is no empirically accessible set of characteristics associated with the word in the context of ID, which renders it scientifically meaningless).
Your willful ignorance is not an argument.
As far as we know, law and chance are all that there is.
Except law and chance cannot produce Stonehenges nor any artifacts. Yet artifacts exist. So we know there is something more than law and chance.
As for “scientific”, I use the same guide as Stephen Meyer and Darwin – results need to be based on our uniform and shared experience.
Great- you should enjoy this:
"Thus, Behe concludes on the basis of our knowledge of present cause-and-effect relationships (in accord with the standard uniformitarian method employed in the historical sciences) that the molecular machines and complex systems we observe in cells can be best explained as the result of an intelligent cause. In brief, molecular motors appear designed because they were designed”- Pg. 72 of Darwinism, Design and Public Education
cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 6, 2015
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RDFish:
As far as we know, law and chance are all that there is.
It seems to me that your radical hyper-skepticism is a little selective. If you are going to abandon reason and common sense, that is, if you are going to question the existence of intelligent agency, then why don't you question the existence of law/chance as well? How do you, in fact, "know" (your word) that law/chance exists? To be more precise, how do you know that the law-like regularity that we observe comes from nature at all? Are you absolutely certain that angels are not moving planets around in their orbits with law-like precision? Are you absolutely certain that we are not measuring the direct movements and actions of intelligent agents? The one response you cannot make is, "Oh come on, let's use a little common sense." That ship has already left the port. So, how do you answer?StephenB
December 6, 2015
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Fish: You obviously believe that “intelligent agents” are ontologically distinct entities . . . Barry: Are you an intelligent agent Fish? If you answer “yes,” then you share my true warranted belief that intelligent agents are ontologically distinct entities. If you answer “no,” you are staggeringly stupid. Fish: Well, it turns out that science also needs objective and precise descriptions, even if people have intuitive notions about things. That is the reason that ID is a scientifically vacuous theory.
And that, dear readers, is what we call a “dodge.” The fact that Fish felt he had to evade the question is answer enough.
Fish: You are confusing the science – which seeks concrete explanations that can be tested against evidence – with scientist’s personal motivations, which of course may well include the desire to prove or disprove religious claims.
You act as if the two can be separated. The goal of the Manhattan Project was to build a fission bomb. The nuclear science employed in the project was in service to that goal. The historical science of Darwinism is in service of the goal of explaining why things that look designed for a purpose are not. Every honest Darwinist will tell you that. “Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view. Yet the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the illusion of design and planning.” Richard Dawkins
Barry: That sentence is the product of intelligent agency. Fish: Examples are not definitions.
No, but they are demonstrations. And I will not waste further time on giving you definitions of that which was demonstrated. You admit that intelligent agency exists. How could you not. You’ve been given perfectly workable definitions many times, and you insist on rejecting them all. That says more about you than about the workability of the definitions.
RDF: As far as we know, law and chance are all that there is. BA: Said an intelligent agent who, by the very act of writing that sentence, proved otherwise. Fish: Honestly, this single statement of yours would merit you an “F” in a freshman class in philosophy. Wow.
This freshman philosophy class of yours must be really tough if Aristotle himself would get an “F.” Or maybe "the Philosopher" is correct and you are wrong. I’m gonna go with that.
Fish: it is a question of what explanations we can come up with that can be scientifically evaluated, period.
And one of the questions that can be evaluated is whether the best explanation for a particular phenomenon is “goal directed teleology” or “natural causes.” Whole fields of inquiry (forensics, etc.) are based on the distinction that you insist on denying.Barry Arrington
December 6, 2015
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RDFsih: As far as we know, law and chance are all that there is. This is a metaphysical claim.Mung
December 6, 2015
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Barry, Once again I find myself in complete disagreement with you. RDFish can count to three. It's when he tries to get to three by adding one and two that he has problems.Mung
December 6, 2015
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RDFish:
My comments are directed at the claim that “Intelligent Design Theory” is a scientific theory, rather than some set of metaphysical beliefs.
So what? This objection can be directed at any theory, including modern evolutionary theory. The inference that the posts of RDFish have an intelligent cause is not a set of metaphysical beliefs.Mung
December 6, 2015
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Hi Barry Arrington,
RDF: You obviously believe that “intelligent agents” are ontologically distinct entities . . . BA: Are you an intelligent agent Fish? If you answer “yes,” then you share my true warranted belief that intelligent agents are ontologically distinct entities. If you answer “no,” you are staggeringly stupid.
If this is your idea of a clever response to my points, then I am manifestly more intelligent than you :-) Anyone who has ever actually studied cognitive function - psychologists, neurologists, AI researchers, and so on - knows better than to try and argue about "intelligence" without providing a concrete definition of what is being claimed. You fail to do so. You're a lawyer, right? Imagine legislature passing a law that said "No person shall ever engage in shenanigans". Well, everybody knows what shenanigans are, right? I imagine you would realize that this law is ambiguous, and while everyone has intuitive, subjective notions about what constitutes "shenanigans", the law requires much more objective and precise descriptions. Well, it turns out that science also needs objective and precise descriptions, even if people have intuitive notions about things. That is the reason that ID is a scientifically vacuous theory.
Yes, exactly. From Origin of Species to this present moment the entire raison d’être of evolutionary theory has been to explain the apparent design of living things without resorting to a designer. This is so basic I can’t believe anyone on either side of the debate would deny it.
You are confusing the science - which seeks concrete explanations that can be tested against evidence - with scientist's personal motivations, which of course may well include the desire to prove or disprove religious claims.
RDF: Yet you provide no objective, empirically-based description of what “intelligent agency” entails, which renders your conclusion scientifically meaningless. BA: Consider the sentence you just wrote: “Yet you provide no objective, empirically-based description of what “intelligent agency” entails, which renders your conclusion scientifically meaningless” That sentence is the product of intelligent agency.
Examples are not definitions. Simply explain what are the necessary and sufficient conditions of intelligent agency, in a concrete, empirically accessible way! Until you do, we are like the judge trying to decide if a kid on a skateboard is engaging in shenanigans without a legal definition thereof.
We don’t know what we don’t know.
It's nice to see that even between diametrically opposed positions like ours, there is common ground :-)
But based on the only two games in town, to the extent one is proven to be true, the other will be proved to be false. This is obvious.
No, this is a ridiculous error that you insist on making. You can make up as many bad theories as you'd like - there is no rule that says we have to pick one and pretend it is scientifically justified as being true. You just keep ignoring this! Not only do you create a false dichotomy, but you just plug your ears and refuse to acknowledge the main point I make here: The word "design" does not constitute an explanation of anything at all unless you make implicit assumptions about what a "designer" is. Thomas Nagel, for example, disbelieves (like I do) that evolutionary processes account for biological systems, and suggests a "natural teleology" is involved. Does that qualify as an "intelligent agency"? Why or why not? [Aha... see below]
Either a fundamental teleology underlies the provenance of the “highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms we observe in organisms” or it does not.
Ok, now you're calling it a "fundamental teleology", rather than "intelligence". Simply provide a clear, empirical description of what a "fundamental teleology", and we can go about trying to decide if such a thing was responsible for living things or not. If you don't want to provide scientifically workable definitions, that's fine! You can still believe whatever you'd like, but please don't call it science.
RDF: As far as we know, law and chance are all that there is. BA: Said an intelligent agent who, by the very act of writing that sentence, proved otherwise.
Honestly, this single statement of yours would merit you an "F" in a freshman class in philosophy. Wow.
Again, ID is agnostic about the nature of the obvious teleology underlying all living things. In this regard, to some degree we are sympathetic with atheist Thomas Nagel, who recognizes the poverty of all previous naturalist attempts to account for that teleology. As I have pointed out before, Nagel believes there must be an as yet unknown quartium quid to account for the teleology. Perhaps he is right. Where ID theorists can agree with him is in his assertion that “the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False.” He is on the right track.
AHA! See, more common ground! I hadn't read ahead in your posts when I mentioned Nagel above, and here you are citing him too....
Is the teleology explained by a conscious, rational being? I believe it is, but that belief is a metaphysical belief. ID does not require it.
Wait a minute!!! Huh???? What, exactly then, are we arguing about? It appears that you already understand that the commonsense, intuitive notion of "intelligence" that we have - that includes conscious awareness - cannot be scientifically justified as the cause of living things! The only thing we have left to work out is why you think it's OK for ID to use words like "intelligence" and "design" without specific definitions, making it appear that there is science behind the assertion that the cause of life was in fact a conscious, rational being!
Dembdki is saying Nagel might be right.
YES! And that means that I am right in my argument that commonsense notions of intelligence cannot be scientifically ascribed to the cause of living things, and that we have no scientifically useful description (yet) of what "natural teleology" might be. (Nagel writes philosophy, not science).
Now you are reverting to a “naturalism of the gaps.”
NO! I am not. Rather, I am arguing that it is not a question of what is "natural"; instead, it is a question of what explanations we can come up with that can be scientifically evaluated, period. If we don't know the answer, then the answer is "we do not know".
And our uniform and shared experience is that when the provenance of highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms is actually known, it is always, without exception, the result of intelligent agency and never the result of blind, unguided natural forces.
False dichotomy. You are setting up a false opposition of two ill-defined concepts, instead of seeking an actual answer. What defines an intelligent agency? If you say it transcends law+chance, you are merely spouting metaphysical assumptions that cannot be tested. And what defines "blind, unguided natural forces"? This metaphorical description isn't a well-defined class at all. Blind? Unguided? A light beam is unguided, right? But it travels in well-defined paths, because... it is in fact guided by spacetime. What do you think guides things that are guided? Consciousness? You've already ceded that one. Teleology? Fine - just get to work trying to craft a scientifically useful description of what that might be, and we'll be on the very same page! Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 6, 2015
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Fish:
As for “scientific”, I use the same guide as Stephen Meyer and Darwin – results need to be based on our uniform and shared experience.
And our uniform and shared experience is that when the provenance of highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms is actually known, it is always, without exception, the result of intelligent agency and never the result of blind, unguided natural forces. ID proponents take that datum and run with it. Our opponents resist it.Barry Arrington
December 6, 2015
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Fish
There’s a very long history of ascribing various mysteries to an “intelligent agent” when no other explanation can be found.
Now you are reverting to a “naturalism of the gaps.” Tjguy is asserting that such a naturalism of the gaps is growing increasingly unpersuasive as we find out just how highly intricate the multi-component mechanisms we observe in organisms really are. Just so stories can be multiplied only so much until the whole “just so” edifice crumbles. We are privileged to see that happening within our lives.Barry Arrington
December 6, 2015
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Fish:
one could be equally speculative and suggest some unknown sort of informational/organizational aspect is involved. Dembski allows that it may be some type of “impersonal telic force”
Yes, as I have been explaining, that is correct. Dembdki is saying Nagel might be right.Barry Arrington
December 6, 2015
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Fish:
You choose to posit some unknown sort of intelligent (conscious, rational) being as the explanation of life.
Again, ID is agnostic about the nature of the obvious teleology underlying all living things. In this regard, to some degree we are sympathetic with atheist Thomas Nagel, who recognizes the poverty of all previous naturalist attempts to account for that teleology. As I have pointed out before, Nagel believes there must be an as yet unknown quartium quid to account for the teleology. Perhaps he is right. Where ID theorists can agree with him is in his assertion that "the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False." He is on the right track. Is the teleology explained by a conscious, rational being? I believe it is, but that belief is a metaphysical belief. ID does not require it.Barry Arrington
December 6, 2015
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Fish:
No. As far as we know, law and chance are all that there is.
Said an intelligent agent who, by the very act of writing that sentence, proved otherwise.Barry Arrington
December 6, 2015
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