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Subjectivists Need to Check Their Moral Privilege

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Many of our interlocutors here often complain about the lengthy comments KF often posts which frame the necessity of a cohesive and coherent worldview when it comes to moral views and arguments. With others, their arguments often hinge around the insistence that either morals simply are not objective in nature, or that there is no way to tell. Even when the logic shows how subjective morality fails to provide a sound basis for behavior or argument, and fails to differentiate any moral view from another, their mantra seems to be a big “so what?”

IOW, so what if their worldview is rationally inconsistent with their behavior? So what if ultimately subjective morality endorses any and all behavior as moral equivalents? That’s not how most people actually behave, they counter, so worrying about worse-case scenarios derived from subjective morality is a groundless concern, especially since believing in objective morality doesn’t appear to make people behave better. Most people, they argue, have similar enough conscience and empathy and other feelings so that if they just adhere to those, we can have a generally-agreed upon and workable moral system without worrying about whether or not it is objectively true.

One problem with this line of thought – especially for those who grew up in western countries – is that it fails to recognize how a “similar-enough” set of personal feelings about others in society has developed within the framework of a virtually universal belief in certain moral absolutes (inviolable rights). Moral relativists take for granted the impact of hundreds of years of post-Enlightement Christian moral objectivism upon our culture and society when they appeal to feelings baked into culture from hundreds of years of enlightened Christianity as their basis of morality.

IOW, their moral views and feelings (even those that superficially appear to contradict some formal Christian “sins”) are the very product of a culture based on and inextricably steeped in post-enlightenment Christian moral objectivism. Their moral relativism is a privileged position sitting atop, relying upon and operating through the very thing it says does not exist.

Even when the Western moral relativist mistakenly argues for an end to discrimination against transgenders, they are taking for granted that “discrimination” against a minority is “a bad thing” that “most people” would automatically “feel bad” about. They are using an Christian Enlightenment-generated set of moral absolutes entrenched in the citizenry to make an emotional case against what they mistakenly frame as “discrimination”, when anti-discrimination as a good thing itself is not something a relativist would probably have access to use outside of Western Christian Enlightenment. Just look around the world to find that out.

Yeah, it’s real easy to point at empathy and feelings when you can rely on most people around you to share similar feelings. Looking outside of the enlightened, western-civilization box, this isn’t something we find to be a universally-shared moral feeling, even if the precept of moral equality is one you can find from sages of all times and from all locations around the world. Around the world you have entire cultures that have no problem at all seeing women and children as inferior objects to be used and abused, seeing other tribes and cultures as something to be exterminated, beheading gays and mutilating people for small legal infractions. They have zero expectation of any moral equality or rights.

The Western objective-morality idea of an objective, god-given inviolable right to liberty and self-determination set the table for today’s western, post-modern moral relativists; how convenient for them when they offer up a big fat “so what” in arguments showing the logical soundness of objective morality and the principles that came from the Enlightenment. They don’t have to account for their moral perspective and tender sensibilities as long as they ignore where they are drawing them from and what has protected their feelings from the brutality of other social mores in other other places in the world.

Moral subjectivists need to check their moral privilege. If they’re going to dismiss the enlightened Christian natural law objective morality basis, they have no right to take for granted the “feelings” and “conscience” and “empathy” it has generated for them to rely on in their arguments supporting moral relativism.  Every time they claim someone has a right or that they should have some liberty, they are intellectually freeloading on hundreds of years of moral objectivism and enlightened Christian views permeating the society they grew up in.

Comments
KairosFocus: "... tells us all we need to know about the bankruptcy of such a view." So much for even the pretense of an open and fair discussion. "Notice, that we have still yet to actually address the substantial matter, starting with self evident moral truth as grounding objectivity of morality — even after such was again drawn to focal attention." Your micharacterization of us not agreeing with your assessment as not addressing it speaks volumes. Why don't you cut and paste the same numbered nonsense about OUGHT and IS that starts with the claim that if you don't accept it as self evidently true that you are being blatantly absurd? I never get tired of that.clown fish
May 24, 2016
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Feeling outrage, feeling sick, horror, and all kinds of emotional responses to the holocaust, are subjective and a basis for condemnation of it.mohammadnursyamsu
May 24, 2016
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It's no surprise that you haven't received a convincing argument from atheists and materialists. But the argument for objective morality is wrong on creationist terms. There are 2 categories in creationism, creator and creation. Opinion applies to the creator, fact applies to the creation. No way no how can you put morality into the creation and fact category. Unless you were talking about morality written in DNA, or the objective fact that books of laws exist. That is the only extent to which morality is objective in creationism.mohammadnursyamsu
May 24, 2016
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cf:
But lets assume, for the sake of argument, that morality is objective as KF, WJM, yourself and others claim. Does that mean that the holocaust did not or would not have happened? Of course not.
No, but it would mean that others have a rationally justifiable and non-hypocritical right to oppose the holocaust. On subjective morality, they simply would not.Phinehas
May 24, 2016
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Aleta:
My support of same-sex marriage and transgendered accommodations, as well as many other things, is consistent with my belief in the principles of our Constitution concerning rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for all.
Objective rights? Or are you saying something closer to... My support for chocolate ice cream is consistent with my belief that it tastes better than vanilla. But then, how to justify imposing that taste on others?Phinehas
May 24, 2016
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F/N: Moved up the geostrategic chart to a better place: https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/fyi-ftr-a-plea-for-civilizational-sanity/ KFkairosfocus
May 24, 2016
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F/N: Notice, that we have still yet to actually address the substantial matter, starting with self evident moral truth as grounding objectivity of morality -- even after such was again drawn to focal attention. That speaks volumes on the actual balance on the merits on the core issues, and on claims or suggestions to have successfully rebutted such issues. Were there a substantial response that would be successful, it would have been long since given; the rhetoric of smokescreens and deflection to try to project emotional discrediting of core, self evident and objective moral truth speaks inadvertent volumes. KF PS: Cf earlier today: https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/fyi-ftr-a-plea-for-civilizational-sanity/kairosfocus
May 24, 2016
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I think it is very confusing to use the nazi or atheist definition of subjectivity. The nazi and atheists definitions of subjectivity are wrong. The nazi's asserted a scientific objective morality, and then they proceeded to categorize the Aryan view of things as subjective. They use the word subjective, but it has nothing to do with the human spirit choosing in expression of emotion with free will. It is about particular objectively measurable racial characteristics reacting to the environment and things. This whole definition is bogus for lack of defining terms.mohammadnursyamsu
May 24, 2016
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CF, cf 209. KF PS: This from Bernard Lewis in his epochal essay on the roots of Muslim rage, is instructive:
. . . The accusations are familiar. We of the West are accused of sexism, racism, and imperialism, institutionalized in patriarchy and slavery, tyranny and exploitation. To these charges, and to others as heinous, we have no option but to plead guilty -- not as Americans, nor yet as Westerners, but simply as human beings, as members of the human race. In none of these sins are we the only sinners, and in some of them we are very far from being the worst. The treatment of women in the Western world, and more generally in Christendom, has always been unequal and often oppressive, but even at its worst it was rather better than the rule of polygamy and concubinage that has otherwise been the almost universal lot of womankind on this planet . . . . In having practiced sexism, racism, and imperialism, the West was merely following the common practice of mankind through the millennia of recorded history. Where it is distinct from all other civilizations is in having recognized, named, and tried, not entirely without success, to remedy these historic diseases. And that is surely a matter for congratulation, not condemnation. We do not hold Western medical science in general, or Dr. Parkinson and Dr. Alzheimer in particular, responsible for the diseases they diagnosed and to which they gave their names.
kairosfocus
May 24, 2016
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Clown RE 207 "That depends. Americans of Japanese descent had the right to own property and to have the same freedoms as other citizens. This right was taken away from them during the war." So what? As you say "They can be, and have been, removed or suspended AT ANY TIME" Vividvividbleau
May 24, 2016
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Vividbleu@206. You are correct. Jews had societal rights (not equal to others in Germany, but that is a different issue) that the democratically elected Nazi government took away. The holocaust is an excellent example of what can happen if morality is subjective. But lets assume, for the sake of argument, that morality is objective as KF, WJM, yourself and others claim. Does that mean that the holocaust did not or would not have happened? Of course not. There are serious potential consequences to subjective morality. Nobody is arguing against that. But there are also serious potential consequences to an understanding of chemistry, physics, evolution, cosmology, biology, etc. The way I see it, we have two options: 1) Accept the fact that morality is subjective and society driven. And do our best to ensure that we work together to have a society that we can all enjoy, knowing that there will be mis-steps along the way, some of them very serious. 2) We can claim (pretend) that morality is objective, knowing that there will be mis-steps along the way, some of them very serious. To me, the bigger risk is the latter. The former requires us to work at maintaining and improving society, the latter encourages complacency and unreasonable resistance to change. If there is one "truth" in life (as supported by human history) it is that societies evolve or die. We know from history that resisting change has never worked over the long term. If we accept that change is inevitable, and work hard at making sure that the changes are well thought out, we have a better change of it working out best for everybody.clown fish
May 24, 2016
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CF, your reaction to exposure of the implicit might/manipulation makes 'right' nihilism in community/cultural relativism -- with right to life on the line (and a past 100 years history of democides going beyond 100 millions) -- tells us all we need to know about the bankruptcy of such a view. Those who refuse to heed lessons bought with blood and tears doom themselves to pay the same coin for the same lessons over and over again. And you have forgotten already the point WJM hammered home above that relativism turns the reformer into an immoral person, that is you cannot live consistent with your own view even when trying to lay smokescreens and deflect blame to targetted others. KF PS: Those who genuinely need to look at the sins and blessings of Christendom may find here on helpful.kairosfocus
May 24, 2016
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DS, Ponder the significance of an assertion that means, it is an error (of falsity) to assert that error exists. And still, this is on a side issue. KFkairosfocus
May 24, 2016
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Vividbleu: "No disrespect to KF and BA but I must admit that was funny. Your worldview not so much but I know you feel the same about mine." The fact is, I suspect that you and I share the vast majority of moral values that we each hold. Where we differ is in the origin of these values. I just can't reconcile the proposal that there are objective moral values (rights, truths) when history clearly does not support this view. Or, if there are objective morals, the fact that entire societies can apparently deviate from them at will (change them over time) means that it is impossible to rationalize what they are with any level of confidence. Which is effectively the same as saying that they are not objective. "But no rights were taken away you have already agreed to that." That depends. Americans of Japanese descent had the right to own property and to have the same freedoms as other citizens. This right was taken away from them during the war.clown fish
May 24, 2016
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Clown RE 196 For example, if society says that same sex marriage is a right, your personal or religious beliefs cannot do anything to hinder someone from availing themselves of that right. If we allow individuals to only support the rights of people on issues where we agree with the specific right. 'Nazi leaders began to make good on their pledge to persecute German Jews soon after their assumption of power. During the first six years of Hitler's dictatorship, from 1933 until the outbreak of war in 1939, Jews felt the effects of more than 400 decrees and regulations that restricted all aspects of their public and private lives. Many of those laws were national ones that had been issued by the German administration and affected all Jews. But state, regional, and municipal officials, on their own initiative, also promulgated a barrage of exclusionary decrees in their own communities. Thus, hundreds of individuals in all levels of government throughout the country were involved in the persecution of Jews as they conceived, discussed, drafted, adopted, enforced, and supported anti-Jewish legislation. No corner of Germany was left untouched.'" No soup for them Jews. Vividvividbleau
May 24, 2016
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Clown RE 202 "That wailing noise you hear is the western society that believed in objective morality and God given rights, taking away the rights of aboriginal children, of citizens of Japanese ancestry, of blacks, of homosexuals, of women." But no rights were taken away you have already agreed to that. Vividvividbleau
May 24, 2016
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Clown RE 203 No disrespect to KF and BA but I must admit that was funny. Your worldview not so much but I know you feel the same about mine. Vividvividbleau
May 24, 2016
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Vividbleu: "You wrote a lot of words when one would have sufficed “yes”" I have been hanging around KF and BA77 too much. :)clown fish
May 24, 2016
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Kairosfocus:
CF, the community giveth the right to life, liberty etc, the community taketh such away; blessed be the name of the community’s consensus. See the problem, and the reductio to might and manipulation make ‘right’ — and where that points? That wailing noise you hear in the background is the chorus of the ghosts of over 100 million victims of nihilistic atheistical and neopagan regimes in the past 100 years. KF
That wailing noise you hear is the western society that believed in objective morality and God given rights, taking away the rights of aboriginal children, of citizens of Japanese ancestry, of blacks, of homosexuals, of women. You can continue to lie to yourself about the existence of objective morality and God given rights, in spite of the all of the evidence to the contrary, or you can accept that these are things that society is responsible for, and work hard to make sure that your voice is heard in society and that you can influence the establishment, and changing, of these rights.clown fish
May 24, 2016
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KF,
DS, let me go through more simply. Start with Error exists = E, then ~E is asserting — propositions are assertions — it is an error to assert that errors exist.So ~ E contradicts itself.
Er, how does ~E contradict itself? ~E is the statement that error does not exist. How is that self-contradictory? Yes, a side issue, but still it's important to be right on specifics.daveS
May 24, 2016
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Clown RE 196 You wrote a lot of words when one would have sufficed "yes" Vividvividbleau
May 24, 2016
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CF, the community giveth the right to life, liberty etc, the community taketh such away; blessed be the name of the community's consensus. See the problem, and the reductio to might and manipulation make 'right' -- and where that points? That wailing noise you hear in the background is the chorus of the ghosts of over 100 million victims of nihilistic atheistical and neopagan regimes in the past 100 years. KFkairosfocus
May 24, 2016
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DS, let me go through more simply. Start with Error exists = E, then ~E is asserting -- propositions are assertions -- it is an error to assert that errors exist. So ~ E contradicts itself. E AND ~E is, similarly necessarily false entailing one or the other is false and on understanding what error is it is ~E. Again, we are still on a side issue, belabouring what is otherwise patent. KFkairosfocus
May 24, 2016
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KF,
DS, a description of an error arising from “Error exists” = E, so deny ~E then join: (E AND ~E) = 0 by definition so ~E is necessarily false is not a proof of any consequence or steps of reasoning more than || + ||| –> ||||| i,e, 2 + 3 = 5, it simply shows that the attempt to deny E instantly entails a necessarily false statement or error.
Yes, perhaps I was wrong above. I thought I understood what this exercise with E and ~E was supposed to show, but I think I confused it with something else. So: E = the statement "error exists". ~E = the statement "error does not exist". (E and ~E) is false of course. How does this lead to the conclusion that ~E is necessarily false again? Edit: Are you saying that you've supplied a procedure for constructing false statements, therefore error exists?daveS
May 24, 2016
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"Nor any subjectively given, they had no rights at all and were not denied any rights. " If society decides to grant rights, they are real and binding. You, as an individual, may disagree with the fact that something is a right, and I might even agree with you, but until we can convince society that it should no longer be a right, we are obliged to not prevent the enjoyment of that right until we are successful at changing the law. If we intentionally attempt to prevent someone from enjoying one of societies rights, we run the risk of losing our own rights (fines and jail time). For example, if society says that same sex marriage is a right, your personal or religious beliefs cannot do anything to hinder someone from availing themselves of that right. If we allow individuals to only support the rights of people on issues where we agree with the specific right, we are on a slippery slope that can only lead to a fall over the cliff and a broken back.clown fish
May 24, 2016
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Clown "None that were objectively given." Nor any subjectively given, they had no rights at all and were not denied any rights. Vividvividbleau
May 24, 2016
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Vividbleu: "Under your worldview they did not have any rights to begin with, nor were they denied any rights." None that were objectively given. All rights that people have are granted by society as a whole. Those rights change over time, sometimes expanding, sometimes contracting. At the time of the constitution, blacks Indians and women did not have the same rights as those of white male land owners. Last century, society decided that rights should be expanded to different races and women. This century, society has decided to expand rights to homosexuals and transgendered. And, contrary to the opinion of some here, we are not heading over the cliff to a broken back.clown fish
May 24, 2016
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Clown RE 168 "Pretty much correct" Pretty much? LOL "Except, of course, blacks, Indians, women, etc" Under your worldview they did not have any rights to begin with, nor were they denied any rights. Vividvividbleau
May 24, 2016
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DS, a description of an error arising from "Error exists" = E, so deny ~E then join: (E AND ~E) = 0 by definition so ~E is necessarily false is not a proof of any consequence or steps of reasoning more than || + ||| --> ||||| i,e, 2 + 3 = 5, it simply shows that the attempt to deny E instantly entails a necessarily false statement or error. This then simply means it is readily seen -- not after arduous step by step argument -- that E is undeniably true due to the meaning of the statement. That is it is true, necessarily true, undeniably true, self evidently true. This is not where anything of serious reasoning is; it is the consequence of truth existing and SE, knowable truth existing that is momentous. And still, we are on a side track that is not looking at say,self evidently, we find ourselves guided towards truth and right by conscience. With the fact of argument and concern towards truth itself as direct witness. KFkairosfocus
May 24, 2016
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KF,
DS, there is no need to go down the line of oh can you cite an authority; no more than for, the sky is blue.
Well, it would be worth checking out what others have said from time to time. Perhaps someone else could explain why "error exists" is a SET in a way that I can understand more easily.
What is also the case is that the attempt to deny produces a clear, easily seen case of an error — you are using my illustrations of ways such errors arise as a claimed proof, but they are not proofs of self evidence.
Exactly. You proved that error exists. Obviously you didn't prove that the statement is self-evident.
Nor has it escaped notice that this is a side issue at best.
Yes, but details matter.daveS
May 24, 2016
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