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Subjectivists Need to Check Their Moral Privilege

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Many of our interlocutors here often complain about the lengthy comments KF often posts which frame the necessity of a cohesive and coherent worldview when it comes to moral views and arguments. With others, their arguments often hinge around the insistence that either morals simply are not objective in nature, or that there is no way to tell. Even when the logic shows how subjective morality fails to provide a sound basis for behavior or argument, and fails to differentiate any moral view from another, their mantra seems to be a big “so what?”

IOW, so what if their worldview is rationally inconsistent with their behavior? So what if ultimately subjective morality endorses any and all behavior as moral equivalents? That’s not how most people actually behave, they counter, so worrying about worse-case scenarios derived from subjective morality is a groundless concern, especially since believing in objective morality doesn’t appear to make people behave better. Most people, they argue, have similar enough conscience and empathy and other feelings so that if they just adhere to those, we can have a generally-agreed upon and workable moral system without worrying about whether or not it is objectively true.

One problem with this line of thought – especially for those who grew up in western countries – is that it fails to recognize how a “similar-enough” set of personal feelings about others in society has developed within the framework of a virtually universal belief in certain moral absolutes (inviolable rights). Moral relativists take for granted the impact of hundreds of years of post-Enlightement Christian moral objectivism upon our culture and society when they appeal to feelings baked into culture from hundreds of years of enlightened Christianity as their basis of morality.

IOW, their moral views and feelings (even those that superficially appear to contradict some formal Christian “sins”) are the very product of a culture based on and inextricably steeped in post-enlightenment Christian moral objectivism. Their moral relativism is a privileged position sitting atop, relying upon and operating through the very thing it says does not exist.

Even when the Western moral relativist mistakenly argues for an end to discrimination against transgenders, they are taking for granted that “discrimination” against a minority is “a bad thing” that “most people” would automatically “feel bad” about. They are using an Christian Enlightenment-generated set of moral absolutes entrenched in the citizenry to make an emotional case against what they mistakenly frame as “discrimination”, when anti-discrimination as a good thing itself is not something a relativist would probably have access to use outside of Western Christian Enlightenment. Just look around the world to find that out.

Yeah, it’s real easy to point at empathy and feelings when you can rely on most people around you to share similar feelings. Looking outside of the enlightened, western-civilization box, this isn’t something we find to be a universally-shared moral feeling, even if the precept of moral equality is one you can find from sages of all times and from all locations around the world. Around the world you have entire cultures that have no problem at all seeing women and children as inferior objects to be used and abused, seeing other tribes and cultures as something to be exterminated, beheading gays and mutilating people for small legal infractions. They have zero expectation of any moral equality or rights.

The Western objective-morality idea of an objective, god-given inviolable right to liberty and self-determination set the table for today’s western, post-modern moral relativists; how convenient for them when they offer up a big fat “so what” in arguments showing the logical soundness of objective morality and the principles that came from the Enlightenment. They don’t have to account for their moral perspective and tender sensibilities as long as they ignore where they are drawing them from and what has protected their feelings from the brutality of other social mores in other other places in the world.

Moral subjectivists need to check their moral privilege. If they’re going to dismiss the enlightened Christian natural law objective morality basis, they have no right to take for granted the “feelings” and “conscience” and “empathy” it has generated for them to rely on in their arguments supporting moral relativism.  Every time they claim someone has a right or that they should have some liberty, they are intellectually freeloading on hundreds of years of moral objectivism and enlightened Christian views permeating the society they grew up in.

Comments
While I'm not sure at all that I could possibly crack through the candy shell of dogmatism that hides the relativistic and irrational melty core of the above lazy thinkers any more effectively than those of you with more patience and much more source data at hand, I'll try. Often enough, I'm forced to plod through an illustration with the odd lazy thinker, a proud member of the brainwashed masses...the Holier-than-thou bicycling, recycling, vegan, the drippy "emperor has no clothes, and I'm loving it" art student with nothing but a medical Marijuana card and a vaporizer to his name, Bernie worshipper. The illustration I use is an attempt, normally after failing to get through with basic logic and first principles...discarding that benefit of the doubt you guys keep graciously affording the above lazy thinkers. Goes something like this: Sitting at a table, you're gathered with members of every major religion, every political philosophy, and you, the relativist, the enlightened, the scoffer decide to stand up and declare to all at the table that they are all wrong...that, because they hold to truths that exclude the truths of their fellow truth-holders, they are therefore "closed-minded...that they are relics of a dark past, that, like you, they shouldn't judge each other based on their own limited subjective perspectives...you know...cuz, like, judging is, like, so bourgeois, man...like so fascist, man...we need to move forward, man, and, like, make everyone feel welcome, man..." And, on and on, it goes...except, hold on... What we're trying to point out to you relativists is that you're doing exactly what you accuse moral objectivists of doing: YOU'RE BEING EXCLUSIVE; YOU'RE EMPLOYING DOGMA! YOU'RE PLACING YOUR SELF-DESCRIBED SUBJECTIVE BELIEFS ABOVE THOSE OF EVERYONE ELSE AT THE TABLE! YOU'RE EXCLUDING EXCLUSIVISTS! YOU'RE BORROWING FROM A MORAL OBJECTIVITY TO CONDEMN MORAL OBJECTIVITY! IOW, YOU'RE A HYPOCRITE WHO EITHER IS DEVOID OF SELF-AWARENESS, A HUGE LOVER OF IRONY, OR, I SUPPOSE, OK WITH INCLUDING HYPOCRISY AMONG YOUR SUBJECTIVIST'S COMMANDMENTS. Your whole "awww, hey, man, all religions can't be right, so none of them are true" shtick is a RELIGIOUS position...a superior judgment made possible through lazy thinking and expensive poli-sci tenured-Marxist-teaching undergrad classes you were forced to take...and, now, you're better than all those religious whackadoodles...you...are...enlightened. Nope. Sorry. You're still just an exclusivist...only you've no "why" or "wherefore" on which to ground your dogma but majority opinion??? Faddish imperatives??? Emotional feel-good, government-compelled directives about bathrooms and wedding cakes??? The latest Facebook poll??? The latest tweet from Lena Dunham??? Or Bill Nye??? Or Leonardo Dicapprio??? Please, for all of our sakes, try a little critical thinking.mugwump3
May 22, 2016
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kairosfocus @ 66 - 51 doesn't answer the question whether objective morals can change. Interestingly, if 51 is a list of objective moral principles, I notice none militate against gay marriage - in fact, #7 and #8 seem to argue *in favour* of gay marriage.CLAVDIVS
May 22, 2016
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WJM:
“What difference does it make if the woman is requesting the harming of an unborn child?”
CF:
If she is not requesting the abortion then the doctor would be doing harm to her.
Wait a minute, we were discussing the harm done to the unborn child, not to the mother. It isn't the mother who gets sliced up or scalded to death. How does the woman's consent to an abortion effect the harm done to the child. Is this not more evidence that it is impossible to have a rational discussion with a subjectivist.StephenB
May 22, 2016
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WJM: "What difference does it make if the woman is requesting the harming of an unborn child?" If she is not requesting the abortion then the doctor would be doing harm to her.clown fish
May 22, 2016
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Clavdivs, Cf 51 above. KFkairosfocus
May 22, 2016
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WJM: What exactly is 'objective morality' the way you are using it. - Can it ever change? - Can we show any part of it is agreed upon by all?CLAVDIVS
May 22, 2016
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Aleta, there is a well known narrative that is conventional wisdom in many quarters but which is strongly contradicted by key state papers and associated pivotal history of ideas documents. In this case, the original key documents are decisive but are largely forgotten or are seriously misread i/l/o a current and anachronistic secularistic mindset projected to the past. As just one sampler consider that it is Congress which was calling the American people to repentance and reformation in May 1776. Congress itself. And in so doing it was clearly thinking in terms of the double covenant understanding of nationhood and government under God with blessings of liberty requiring national penitence; a view that inter alia traces to Ac 17 and Rom 13. KFkairosfocus
May 22, 2016
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So I don’t think your explanation of the connection between the DoI and the Constitution is valid, Stephen.
What you think is irrelevant to the facts, which I just presented. The DOI provides the objective moral justification for the Constitution.StephenB
May 22, 2016
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Hmmm. Why are my statements "the usual party line talking points . . .", but yours are not your party line talking points?Aleta
May 22, 2016
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(Decided the stuff was a bit dense so I opened it up a bit)kairosfocus
May 22, 2016
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Aleta, sorry, not so again (but you are giving the usual partyline talking points . . . ), the statement in the preamble and in the closing of the Const clearly connect it to -- the spiritual covenant understanding of May 17 1776 and Dec 18 1777 plus plus plus, and -- to the DoI, cf 50 - 51 above again, and my discussion on manifestly evident core principles of the natural moral law -- * explicit in the DoI paras 1 and 2, * with obvious context in Locke and Blackstone * with other content ranging through Rutherford, Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos, the Dutch Doi of 1581 and * as far back as King Alfred's Book of Dooms [Common Law . . . Literally starts with Moses (10 Commandments!) and the Apostles before speaking to the Witans of Saxon kingdoms that had taken baptism], * Justinian's Corpus Juris Civilis * and of course Magna Carta. Note, blessings of liberty in the relevant history of theology is highly loaded with significance as the congressional calls to prayer amplify. Much has been forgotten and needs to be seen with fresh eyes, and the documents I point to are of particular significance. They also strongly support WJM's points on the historical natural law foundation of stabilised modern democracy. What is happening in our time is the knocking out of the stabilising framework through the hostile dechristianising agendas at work, not knowing how crucial the blessings of Christendom are to what we have. Predictably, the course onward will be much like that in Athens surrounding the Peloponnesian war. Which BTW is a good part of specific concerns behind why the US founders/framers were so careful to speak in terms of a republic, they wanted to make sure of stabilisation and answer to the then widely understood concerns on the dangerous instability and self destructive nature of democracies. KFkairosfocus
May 22, 2016
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institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness
And this is what the Constitution does, without reference to God. The Constitution is a secular document.Aleta
May 22, 2016
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Aleta, Not so, please look again at the philosophical f/w and principles in the 1st and 2nd paras of the DoI:
When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness [--> sets up the Confed and const to follow]. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .
This is in the historical, documentary context as outlined at 40 in which several history of ideas themes can be clearly seen in continuity. And the 2nd para is a rationale, explicitly that lays out a basis. SB is right. The attempt to drive a wedge between the two on excuse of passage of a decade, fails. KF PS: To get a further idea of context here is Blackstone in Commentaries on the Laws of England 1765:
Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his creator, for he is entirely a dependent being . . . consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his maker for every thing, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his maker's will. This will of his maker is called the law of nature. For as God, when he created matter, and endued it with a principle of mobility, established certain rules for the perpetual direction of that motion; so, when he created man, and endued him with freewill to conduct himself in all parts of life, he laid down certain immutable laws of human nature, whereby that freewill is in some degree regulated and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the purport of those laws . . . These are the eternal, immutable laws of good and evil, to which the creator himself in all his dispensations conforms; and which he has enabled human reason to discover, so far as they are necessary for the conduct of human actions. Such among others are these principles: that we should live honestly [NB: cf. Exod. 20:15 - 16], should hurt nobody [NB: cf. Rom 13:8 - 10], and should render to every one his due [NB: cf. Rom 13:6 - 7 & Exod. 20:15]; to which three general precepts Justinian[1: a Juris praecepta sunt hace, honeste vivere. alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere. Inst, 1. 1. 3] has reduced the whole doctrine of law [and, Corpus Juris, Justinian's Christianised precis and pruning of perhaps 1,000 years of Roman jurisprudence, in turn is the foundation of law for much of Europe]. [Parenthetical remarks and emphases added.]
kairosfocus
May 22, 2016
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Mung, that is a silly comment. Irrespective of whether there is objective morality, factual questions can be true or false. The phrase about "Nature's God" is in the DoI, not the Constitution, and that's a true fact. The statement has nothing to do with morality.Aleta
May 22, 2016
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The DoI was about why we were to dissolve our political connection with Great Britain. It is not about how the 13 colonies were to govern themselves. The Constitution, which was written over a decade later, was about how the thirteen colones were to be governed as a unified country. The Constitution is not the "how" of which the DoI was the "why". So I don't think your explanation of the connection between the DoI and the Constitution is valid, Stephen.Aleta
May 22, 2016
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But you’ll agree, won’t you kf, that the words Stephen posted are not in the Constitution. True? What is the point of arguing about whether it is true or not if there is no objective morality?Mung
May 22, 2016
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Note how WJM shifts the goalposts from objective morality to objective commodity. So? Are you saying that he ought not do that because you wish he would not do that?Mung
May 22, 2016
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Aleta
But you’ll agree, won’t you kf, that the words Stephen posted are not in the Constitution. True?
Of course. The DOI is the "why." The Constitution is the "how." It is the why that always justifies the how. That is why I brought it up. Subjectivists don't understand this because for them, there is no "why," --there is only, "I want."StephenB
May 22, 2016
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But you'll agree, won't you kf, that the words Stephen posted are not in the Constitution. True?Aleta
May 22, 2016
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F/N: I cannot but note that Cf et al have yet again failed to cogently address the following, so lest it be lost in the stream of comments, I again draw attention to it, as addressing the pivotal underlying issue, the objectivity of our being under moral government and of key moral principles. Notice, first, how Paul, in what would become the most important single foundational bit of theology in the Christian scriptures, firmly places moral government communicated by conscience and linked understanding of the natural moral law accessible specifically tot he one who does not have scriptures, in the heart of Christian theology. Then, notice how Anglican Canon Richard Hooker, in his Ecclesiastical Polity (1594+, praised BTW by the pope across the dividing lines of the reformation) draws out the principles, and how Locke in grounding what would become modern liberty and democracy, cites this at a crucial point in his 2nd treatise on civil gov't. This would then find its fulfillment in the US DoI and Constitution, then would spread tot he wider world as the first great modern democracy . . . yes, carefully balanced to stabilise it . . . succeeded: _______________ >>normally responsive people will at least grudgingly respect the following summary of such core, conscience attested morality from the pen of Paul:
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . . Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong [NIV, "harm"] to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. [ESV]
Where, John Locke, in grounding modern liberty and what would become democratic self-government of a free people premised on upholding the civil peace of justice, in Ch 2 Sec. 5 of his second treatise on civil Government [c. 1690] cites "the judicious [Anglican canon, Richard] Hooker" from his classic Ecclesiastical Polity of 1594 on, as he explains how the principles of neighbour-love are inscribed in our hearts, becoming evident to the eye of common good sense and reasonableness:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8 and alluding to Justinian's synthesis of Roman Law in Corpus Juris Civilis that also brings these same thoughts to bear:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]
We may elaborate on Paul, Locke, Hooker and Aristotle, laying out several manifestly evident and historically widely acknowledged core moral principles for which the attempted denial is instantly and patently absurd for most people -- that is, they are arguably self-evident moral truths. For instance: 1] The first self evident moral truth is that we are inescapably under the government of ought. (This is manifest in even an objector's implication in the questions, challenges and arguments that s/he would advance, that we are in the wrong and there is something to be avoided about that. That is, even the objector inadvertently implies that we OUGHT to do, think, aim for and say the right. Not even the hyperskeptical objector can escape this truth. Patent absurdity on attempted denial.) 2] Second self evident truth, we discern that some things are right and others are wrong by a compass-sense we term conscience which guides our thought. (Again, objectors depend on a sense of guilt/ urgency to be right not wrong on our part to give their points persuasive force. See what would be undermined should conscience be deadened or dismissed universally? Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit.) 3] Third, were this sense of conscience and linked sense that we can make responsibly free, rational decisions to be a delusion, we would at once descend into a status of grand delusion in which there is no good ground for confidence in our self-understanding. That is, we look at an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds: once such a principle of grand global delusion is injected, there is no firewall so the perception of level one delusion is subject to the same issue, and this level two perception too, ad infinitum; landing in patent absurdity. 4] Fourth, we are objectively under obligation of OUGHT. That is, despite any particular person’s (or group’s or august council’s or majority’s) wishes or claims to the contrary, such obligation credibly holds to moral certainty. That is, it would be irresponsible, foolish and unwise for us to act and try to live otherwise. 5] Fifth, this cumulative framework of moral government under OUGHT is the basis for the manifest core principles of the natural moral law under which we find ourselves obligated to the right the good, the true etc. Where also, patently, we struggle to live up to what we acknowledge or imply we ought to do. 6] Sixth, this means we live in a world in which being under core, generally understood principles of natural moral law is coherent and factually adequate, thus calling for a world in which OUGHT is properly grounded at root level. (Thus worldviews that can soundly meet this test are the only truly viable ones. if a worldview does not have in it a world-root level IS that can simultaneously ground OUGHT, it fails decisively.*) 7] Seventh, in light of the above, even the weakest and most voiceless of us thus has a natural right to life, liberty, the pursuit of fulfillment of one’s sense of what s/he ought to be (“happiness”). This includes the young child, the unborn and more. (We see here the concept that rights are binding moral expectations of others to provide respect in regards to us because of our inherent status as human beings, members of the community of valuable neighbours. Where also who is my neighbour was forever answered by the parable of the Good Samaritan. Likewise, there can be no right to demand of or compel my neighbour that s/he upholds me and enables me in the wrong — including under false colour of law through lawfare. To justly claim a right, one must first be in the right.) 8] Eighth, like unto the seventh, such may only be circumscribed or limited for good cause. Such as, reciprocal obligation to cherish and not harm neighbour of equal, equally valuable nature in community and in the wider world of the common brotherhood of humanity. 9] Ninth, this is the context in which it becomes self evidently wrong, wicked and evil to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child or the like as concrete cases in point that show that might and/or manipulation do not make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ ‘worth,’ ‘justice,’ ‘fairness,’ ‘law’ etc. That is, anything that expresses or implies the nihilist’s credo is morally absurd. 10] Tenth, this entails that in civil society with government, justice is a principal task of legitimate government. Thus also, 11] Eleventh, that government is and ought to be subject to audit, reformation and if necessary replacement should it fail sufficiently badly and incorrigibly. 12] Twelfth, the attempt to deny or dismiss such a general framework of moral governance invariably lands in shipwreck of incoherence and absurdity. But that does not mean that the attempt is not going to be made, so there is a mutual obligation of frank and fair correction and restraint of evil. _________________ * F/N: After centuries of debates and assessment of alternatives per comparative difficulties, there is in fact just one serious candidate to be such a grounding IS: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. (And instantly, such generic ethical theism answers also to the accusation oh this is “religion”; that term being used as a dirty word — no, this is philosophy. If you doubt this, simply put forth a different candidate that meets the required criteria and passes the comparative difficulties test: _________ . Likewise, an inherently good, maximally great being will not be arbitrary or deceitful etc, that is why such is fully worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. As a serious candidate necessary being, such would be eternal and embedded in the frame for a world to exist at all. Thus such a candidate is either impossible as a square circle is impossible due to mutual ruin of core characteristics, or else it is actual. For simple instance no world is possible without two-ness in it, a necessary basis for distinct identity inter alia.>> ________________ That is what needs to be answered and the consistent absence of a cogent reply speaks for itself. KFkairosfocus
May 22, 2016
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Aleta, The May 17, 1776 national prayer meeting called by congress sets the context of covenant nationhood under God. The July 4, 1776 DoI is the first part of the formation of government under God by duly proper representatives and the Sept 17, 1787 Constitution delivered a revised form of Govt in the twelfth year of independence. That is, it fulfilled what is in the 2nd para DoI, and properly is to be understood in that context. Thus, SB is entirely correct to cite the DoI as the relevant context of the Constitution that has the following grand statement structure:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America . . . . [Main Body, Arts I - VII] . . . . Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names. . . . . [AMENDMENTS].
Where, blessings of liberty is particularly significant. But first, the 1778 Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union have this structure:
And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union. Know Ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name and in behalf of our respective constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union . . . . In Witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands in Congress. Done at Philadelphia in the State of Pennsylvania the ninth day of July in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy-Eight, and in the Third Year of the independence of America.
That May 1776 call to prayer gives critical context, i/l/o the classic, reformation understanding of nationhood and government under God, with particular reference to blessings of liberty:
May 1776 [over the name of John Hancock, first signer of the US Declaration of Indpependence] : In times of impending calamity and distress; when the liberties of America are imminently endangered by the secret machinations and open assaults of an insidious and vindictive administration, it becomes the indispensable duty of these hitherto free and happy colonies, with true penitence of heart, and the most reverent devotion, publickly to acknowledge the over ruling providence of God; to confess and deplore our offences against him; and to supplicate his interposition for averting the threatened danger, and prospering our strenuous efforts in the cause of freedom, virtue, and posterity.. . . Desirous, at the same time, to have people of all ranks and degrees duly impressed with a solemn sense of God's superintending providence, and of their duty, devoutly to rely, in all their lawful enterprizes, on his aid and direction, Do earnestly recommend, that Friday, the Seventeenth day of May next, be observed by the said colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that we may, with united hearts, confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and, by a sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease his righteous displeasure, and, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness; humbly imploring his assistance to frustrate the cruel purposes of our unnatural enemies; . . . that it may please the Lord of Hosts, the God of Armies, to animate our officers and soldiers with invincible fortitude, to guard and protect them in the day of battle, and to crown the continental arms, by sea and land, with victory and success: Earnestly beseeching him to bless our civil rulers, and the representatives of the people, in their several assemblies and conventions; to preserve and strengthen their union, to inspire them with an ardent, disinterested love of their country; to give wisdom and stability to their counsels; and direct them to the most efficacious measures for establishing the rights of America on the most honourable and permanent basis—That he would be graciously pleased to bless all his people in these colonies with health and plenty, and grant that a spirit of incorruptible patriotism, and of pure undefiled religion, may universally prevail; and this continent be speedily restored to the blessings of peace and liberty, and enabled to transmit them inviolate to the latest posterity. And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and abstain from servile labour on the said day.
The context could not be clearer and more sustained. It would be helpful to add the congressional call to thanksgiving in Dec 1777, however:
December 1777: FORASMUCH as it is the indispensable Duty of all Men to adore the superintending Providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with Gratitude their Obligation to him for benefits received, and to implore such farther Blessings as they stand in Need of; And it having pleased him in his abundant Mercy not only to continue to us the innumerable Bounties of his common Providence, but also to smile upon us in the Prosecution of a just and necessary War, for the Defence and Establishment of our unalienable Rights and Liberties [--> Just war theory, a Christian theological context]; particularly in that he hath been pleased in so great a Measure to prosper the Means used for the Support of our Troops and to crown our Arms with most signal success: It is therefore recommended to the legislative or executive powers of these United States, to set apart THURSDAY, the eighteenth Day of December next, for Solemn Thanksgiving and Praise; That with one Heart and one Voice the good People may express the grateful Feelings of their Hearts, and consecrate themselves to the Service of their Divine Benefactor; and that together with their sincere Acknowledgments and Offerings, they may join the penitent Confession of their manifold Sins, whereby they had forfeited every Favour, and their humble and earnest Supplication that it may please GOD, through the Merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of Remembrance; That it may please him graciously to afford his Blessing on the Governments of these States respectively, and prosper the public Council of the whole; to inspire our Commanders both by Land and Sea, and all under them, with that Wisdom and Fortitude which may render them fit Instruments, under the Providence of Almighty GOD, to secure for these United States the greatest of all human blessings, INDEPENDENCE and PEACE; That it may please him to prosper the Trade and Manufactures of the People and the Labour of the Husbandman, that our Land may yet yield its Increase; To take Schools and Seminaries of Education, so necessary for cultivating the Principles of true Liberty, Virtue and Piety, under his nurturing Hand, and to prosper the Means of Religion for the promotion and enlargement of that Kingdom which consisteth “in Righteousness, Peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost.”[i.e. Cites Rom 14:9]
Oh, how much has been so conveniently forgotten. KFkairosfocus
May 22, 2016
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Those words are not from the Constitution, Stephen.Aleta
May 22, 2016
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CF
Note how WJM shifts the goalposts from objective morality to objective commodity.
Bad logic: WJM did not move the goalposts. He referred to objective and subjective commodities. In that context, commodity is the general category while "subjective" and "objective" are particulars within that category.StephenB
May 22, 2016
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I’m pretty sure that Mr Arrington and you and all the other contributors here – including me – would agree that one of the greatest achievements of the United States lies in the Constitution on which it is founded. Was that handed down from on high, inscribed of tablets of stone, to delegates who had been standing around with bated breath, waiting to be told what it should be? No, it was not. It was hammered out by the delegates to the Constitutional Convention of 1787 over months of painstaking negotiation.
What is it about the words, ..."the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them ..." that you do not understand.StephenB
May 22, 2016
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StephenB: “Would you try to talk a doctor out of aborting an unborn child?” CF
Not if the abortion was being conducted on the request of the woman.
You said that your standard for talking someone out of a position was based on whether or not someone would be "harmed" by that position. Now we find that you really don't care about harm at all. If it pleases a woman, you will harm unborn children all day long. You are a walking contradiction.StephenB
May 22, 2016
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CF said:
Note how WJM shifts the goalposts from objective morality to objective commodity.
The debate is about whether or not moral subjectivists act as if morality is an objective commodity, or if they act as if it is a subjective commodity, and further that their subjectivist arguments and narrative depend entirely upon their privileged position of growing up in a westernized society with deeply embedded post-enlightenment Christian precepts of natural law moral objectivism. Note how Seversky brazenly refers to a document created by moral objectivists which gains it's authority from natural law precepts as " In other words, one of the finest examples of inter-subjective agreement the world has ever seen." The full force of the point of the OP is on full display here. What makes the constitution of the USA "one of the finest" such examples, and not any other agreement struck by any other group of people throughout the history of the world?. Note Seversky's implication that people of different subjective views reaching intersubjective agreement is laudable - is the capacity of a single empereror to force his personal moral views on an entire population not also laudable? What difference does it make - morally speaking - if one person forces his views on everyone, or if a lot of people come to an agreement? Under moral subjectivism, there is no difference between majority makes right and might makes right. Seversky seems to be trying to make the case that people being able to come to agreements about fundamental moral rights and obligations indicates that morality is subjective in nature. It indicates no such thing; rather, it makes the case that people were able to set aside personal preferences and use logic and reason to refine a document to reflect the most basic and rationally certain aspects of what they all held was an objective moral foundation. It speaks to the objective nature of morality above personal preference, not the other way around.William J Murray
May 22, 2016
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CF said:
Not if the abortion was being conducted on the request of the woman.
What difference does it make if the woman is requesting the harming of an unborn child?William J Murray
May 22, 2016
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Seversky continues:
IIs it really necessary to point out that a choice in music is rather different from the preference of almost all people that they and their families and friends not be, raped, tortured and murdered by psychopaths?
Depends on what you mean by "different"; if you mean "different" in forms of degree, meaning a more intensely felt preference and or a more widely popular preference, then yes it is different in degree or popularity and you have warrant to argue and act according to that increased degree of preference or popularity. What it cannot be, however, is categorically different. Under moral relativism, one's dislike of harm to self or family must still be, categorically, a personal preference and cannot be an objective commodity, so it cannot warrant behavior or terms that are reserved for objective commodities.
How is that immoral?
For example, if society says that homosexual behavior is immoral, then if "majority prevails", you cannot challenge that view because you would be acting immorally. You have no basis to challenge majority morality if majority determines what is moral. If only the individual determines what is moral for them (true moral subjectivism), then the act of attempting to talk another person into behaving differently is a de facto attempt to get them to behave immorally - against their own personal, subjective morality.
I’m pretty sure that Mr Arrington and you and all the other contributors here – including me – would agree that one of the greatest achievements of the United States lies in the Constitution on which it is founded. Was that handed down from on high, inscribed of tablets of stone, to delegates who had been standing around with bated breath, waiting to be told what it should be? No, it was not. It was hammered out by the delegates to the Constitutional Convention of 1787 over months of painstaking negotiation.
By people who, to a man, each believed in and objective basis for morality.
Each one of those delegates approached it from his own subjective perspective but they were nonetheless able to forge an agreement by which they could all live and which has stood the test of time thus far.
Everyone approaches everything in existence "from their own subjective perspective"; that doesn't mean what they are approaching is itself subjective in nature. You seem to think that they could have come up with the idea of "unalienable rights" and "self-evident truths" if they were moral subjectivists. Sorry, no. You're intellectually freeloading on concepts unavailable to the logically-consistent moral subjectivist.
In other words, one of the finest examples of inter-subjective agreement the world has ever seen. I see nothing deranged or illogical about that.
You're just using terminology to co-opt the work of of moral objectivists and a document that relies entirely upon the precepts of moral objectivism and natural law to feed a subjectivist narrative you have no logical access to. The DoI and Constitution were created by moral objectivists and were founded moral objectivism, asserting objectively, self-evident moral truths. That you bald-facedly try to turn that into an account for subjectivism is absurd.William J Murray
May 22, 2016
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WJM: "Note how CF has simply not responded to any salient argument point about the difference between commodities held to be objective and those held to be subjective and how we act in society with regards to those two different categories of phenomena." Note how WJM shifts the goalposts from objective morality to objective commodity.clown fish
May 22, 2016
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StephenB: "Would you try to talk a doctor out of aborting an unborn child?" Not if the abortion was being conducted on the request of the woman.clown fish
May 22, 2016
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