Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Remedial Logic for Materialists

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Materialists have a lot of stock responses they use to distract themselves from the explanatory poverty of the “answers” their faith commitments require them to spew out in response to obvious objections.  Consider the materialist responses to my last post, Quashing Materialist Appeals to Magic (Again).

Briefly, I argued that unless materialists can provide some sort of an explanation of the process by which the physical electro-chemical properties of the brain result in the mental properties of the mind, then merely invoking “emergence” has exactly the same explanatory power as invoking “magic.”  I quoted atheists Thomas Nagel and Elizabeth Liddle, who concur.

Now to the materialist’s stock answer (courtesy of Popperian):  Barry, you have committed the Fallacy of Composition.  The fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something must be true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole.  For example, hydrogen atoms are not “wet” and oxygen atoms are not “wet,” but if one inferred from the non-wetness of individual hydrogen and oxygen atoms that a particular way of combining and organizing those atoms would also be non-wet, one would be wrong.  Organize the atoms in a particular way and you get water, which is wet in a way that none of its constituent parts are.  In other words, “wetness” is an emergent property of the whole that is not a property of any of its parts, and if you had drawn an inference about the wetness of the whole from the non-wetness of the parts you would have been wrong.  In the same way, carbon atoms and the other physical components of the brain are not conscious, but when those parts are organized in a certain way, consciousness emerges.

No Popperian.  I have not committed the fallacy of composition.  Instead, you have committed the fallacy of false analogy.  The process of analogical inference involves noting the shared properties of two or more things, and from this basis inferring that they also share some further property.  The structure or form may be generalized like so:

  1. P and Q are similar in respect to properties a and b.
  2. P has been observed to have further property c.
  3. Therefore, Q probably has property c also.

A person commits the fallacy of false analogy when he makes a faulty inference from analogy.  And Popperian’s inference is faulty.  Let’s see why this is so.  Here is Popparian’s argument from analogy:

  1. Water and the brain are similar as to the following properties:

(a) Water molecules are made of parts; the brain is made of parts.

(b) The constituent parts of water molecules are organized in a particular way; the constituent parts of the brain are organized in a particular way.

  1. Water molecules have been observed to have a further property, namely the emergent property “wetness” resulting from the organization of its parts even though none of those parts exhibits that property.
  1. Therefore, the brain probably also has an emergent property, namely consciousness, resulting from the organization of its parts even though none of its parts exhibits that property.

An analogy is false if the similarities are not relevant to the conclusion.  In this case, the similarities are completely, totally, and utterly irrelevant to the conclusion.

We know why water is wet.  From Wikipedia:

Water is the chemical substance with chemical formula H 2O one molecule of water has two hydrogen atoms covalently bonded to a single oxygen atom.  Water is a tasteless, odorless liquid at ambient temperature and pressure, and appears colorless in small quantities, although it has its own intrinsic very light blue hue. Ice also appears colorless, and water vapor is essentially invisible as a gas.

Water is primarily a liquid under standard conditions, which is not predicted from its relationship to other analogous hydrides of the oxygen family in the periodic table, which are gases such as hydrogen sulfide. The elements surrounding oxygen in the periodic table, nitrogen, fluorine, phosphorus, sulfur and chlorine, all combine with hydrogen to produce gases under standard conditions. The reason that water forms a liquid is that oxygen is more electronegative than all of these elements with the exception of fluorine. Oxygen attracts electrons much more strongly than hydrogen, resulting in a net positive charge on the hydrogen atoms, and a net negative charge on the oxygen atom. The presence of a charge on each of these atoms gives each water molecule a net dipole moment. Electrical attraction between water molecules due to this dipole pulls individual molecules closer together, making it more difficult to separate the molecules and therefore raising the boiling point. This attraction is known as hydrogen bonding.

In summary, we know why water has the emergent property of wetness (i.e., it is a liquid at certain temperatures even though its constituent parts would not be a liquid at those same temperatures).  We know, that is, that the parts of water are causally adequate to account for the properties of the whole, including the emergent property “wetness,” and we know exactly why that is the case.   If we had reason to know that the parts of the brain were causally adequate to result in consciousness, then that analogy would be apt.  But we don’t.  In fact, just exactly the opposite is true.   We don’t have the first idea how, even in principle, the physical properties of the brain are causally adequate to account for the mental properties of the mind.

Therefore, the analogy to the wetness of water gets us exactly nowhere, because we simply have no reason (other than materialist metaphysical faith commitments) to believe that the wetness of the water is similar in relevant respects to the consciousness of the brain.  In fact, we have good reason to believe that the physical can ever be, even in principal, causally adequate to result in the mental, far less actual knowledge of how that is the case, as we do with water.

Popperian’s analogy gets us no further than demonstrating that that emergence is possible under certain conditions for certain systems.  But no one disputes that.  The question is not whether emergence is possible.  Of course it is.  The question is whether emergence occurred.  And merely pointing out that emergence is possible gets us nowhere with respect to the question of whether emergence actually occurred.  With respect to that question, Popperian has not given us the slightest hint of a nod toward an explanation of how that could have happened, and there are good reasons to believe it could not.

Not only has Popperian committed the fallacy of false analogy, but he also has committed the fallacy of “affirming the consequent.” This error takes the following form:

If P, then Q.

Q.

Therefore, P.

The reason this is false is because there may be other causes of P besides Q, as the following example demonstrates.

If it is raining the streets are wet.

The streets are wet.

Therefore it is raining.

Why is this reasoning invalid?  Because while it is certainly the case that if it is raining the streets will be wet; the converse is not also true.  The streets can be wet when there is not a cloud in the sky (as for example when a fire hydrant breaks).

Here is how Popperain affirms the consequent when he invokes emergence to account for consciousness:

If there are emergent properties, the whole has properties that cannot be reduced to the properties of its individual physical components.

The mind/brain system has properties that cannot be reduced to the properties of its individual physical components (i.e., consciousness).

Therefore, the mind/brain system exhibits emergent properties.

Why is this affirming the consequent?  Because there could be another reason besides emergence to account for consciousness, namely, the existence of an immaterial mind.

Popperian, the streets are wet.  That does not necessarily mean it is raining.  Write that down.

Comments
DaveS @11 That is exactly true. It is stating an hypothesis. It is not proving the hypothesis. There can be many explanations for the fossil record: God did it, aliens did it, time travelers did it, evolution did it, or some other force. What the facts do not do is prove it was evolution. For the hominid record to prove an ascent to man to have to prove evolution is the only possibility. That is where in the fallacy resides. To not be a fallacy it has to go like: 1. Evolution is the only force that could cause species to morph. 2. There is an ascent to man. 3. Therefore evolution created the ascent of man. This is deductive reasoning. However, since 1 is not know it is a fallacy to say 3 has been proven. Elementary logic. If as you say it is impossible to rule out all the explanations then that means evolution is untestable, and therefore not science.Peter
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
07:01 AM
7
07
01
AM
PDT
Z @ 36. "it hasn’t happened with regards to Planned Parenthood" Planned Parenthood admits to selling pieces of the unborn babies they've chopped up. My God man. They are on video negotiating prices. Why in the world would you claim it has not happened when they admit it?Barry Arrington
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:55 AM
6
06
55
AM
PDT
Barry Arrington: Z @ 31 absolutely refuses to answer the question. You must be hard of hearing, as we already answered. Barry Arrington: Are you, like eigenstate, in favor of chopping up little unborn babies and selling their parts like meat even if that practice turns out to be perfectly legal? No, we are not in favor, it's not legal, and as far as the evidence so far indicates, it hasn't happened with regards to Planned Parenthood.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:50 AM
6
06
50
AM
PDT
Popperian:
when you’re actually faced with moral problems in practice, it seems your only recourse is to conjecture solutions to moral problems and rationally criticism them
OK, Popperian, Zachriel is too cowardly to make his views on the matter plain. How about you. Are you, like eigenstate, in favor of chopping up little unborn babies and selling their parts like meat?Barry Arrington
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:48 AM
6
06
48
AM
PDT
Z @ 31 absolutely refuses to answer the question. Telling, very telling. BTW, Z, I infer from your non-answer that the answer is really "yes, you are in favor of choppping up little babies and selling the pieces like meat" After all, if the answer were "no" there would be no need to evade the question. I find it absolutely fascinating that you claim to attach moral significance to whether or not the pieces are priced to make a profit. The one-to-one correlation I mentioned above continues to hold. Barry Arrington
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:45 AM
6
06
45
AM
PDT
Barry, You still haven't explained how you can infallibly identify an infallible source or howe you could managed to interpret it infallibly should you have identified one in the first place. In the absence of such an explanation, when you're actually faced with moral problems in practice, it seems your only recourse is to conjecture solutions to moral problems and rationally criticism them. For example, how do you distinguish Barry Arrington's views on abortion and same sex marriage from some objectify true morality?Popperian
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:33 AM
6
06
33
AM
PDT
Popperian:
My criticism is specific to how you or StephanB know what someone is capable of producing or not.
And I answer that criticism here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-response-to-the-materialists-possible-possum-gambit/Barry Arrington
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:30 AM
6
06
30
AM
PDT
Barry Arrington: The statute is worded such that the word “sell” is defined to exclude reimbursing an abortionist for the cost of obtaining the baby parts. That's right. They get reimbursed for the costs of acquiring, storing, and transporting the tissue, just as they do with any other tissue donation. They can't legally make a profit, and the evidence certainly indicates that they don't. Barry Arrington: Are you, like eigenstate, in favor of chopping up little unborn babies and selling their parts like meat even if that practice turns out to be perfectly legal? We support current laws which criminalize the sale of human tissue.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:25 AM
6
06
25
AM
PDT
Barry Arrington: 1. The asserted self-evident truths in the Declaration are not in fact self-evident. That is not our position. Indeed, many people accept the truths of the Declaration of Independence as self-evident, which they determine by introspection. However, others find the truths not self-evident. The Founders recognized the truths as essentially subjective, which is why they didn't argue for the truths, but simply stated them and hoped their audience would agree; because if they agreed with the precept, then the syllogism would be persuasive. However, this self-evident truth was contrary to the self-evident truths of the Middle Ages, which were duty to God and sovereign before any individual pursuit of happiness. King George and the British parliament weren't daft or irrational. They just didn't accept the precept that all men are created equal. Anyone can see that they are not equal in terms of ability, and furthermore, see that some are born into positions of power and responsibility, which they saw as God-ordained.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:22 AM
6
06
22
AM
PDT
Actually Z @ 26, you are wrong about that. The statute is worded such that the word "sell" is defined to exclude reimbursing an abortionist for the cost of obtaining the baby parts. So, I will ask the question, again. Are you, like eigenstate, in favor of chopping up little unborn babies and selling their parts like meat even if that practice turns out to be perfectly legal?Barry Arrington
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:21 AM
6
06
21
AM
PDT
I'd also point out that i did not claim you committed the fallacy of composition, either. My criticism is specific to how you or StephanB know what someone is capable of producing or not. To quote StephanB...
A sufficient or proportional cause is one that is capable of producing the effect, which is defined as a change or the coming into existence of another thing. Accordingly, a cause cannot give what it does not have to give. Matter, for example, does not have the power to reflect on itself, so it cannot confer or transmit that quality to humans.
First, anthropomorphize much? Second, the fallacy of composition doesn't even "go" in that direction. From the referenced link...
The fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole (or even of every proper part).
Given that wetness isn't true of some part of the whole, how did you get that from an argument I didn't make? Rather, I'm suggesting your "criteria" commits the fallacy of division, which does "go" in that direction.
A fallacy of division occurs when one reasons logically that something true for the whole must also be true of all or some of its parts
That is is reflected in StephanB's comment. Specifically, something true for the whole, human reflection, must also be true of all or some of its parts, matter, for it to be a proportional cause. Since reflection isn't true of matter it cannot cause reflection in the whole. Again, if I've got it wrong, then what is your criteria and how does it differ. Please be specific.Popperian
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:18 AM
6
06
18
AM
PDT
Z's argument appears to be: 1. The asserted self-evident truths in the Declaration are not in fact self-evident. 2. Therefore, self-evident truth does not exist. Non-sequitur Z. Fail.Barry Arrington
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:14 AM
6
06
14
AM
PDT
Barry Arrington: in favor of chopping up little unborn babies and selling their parts like meat? The sale of human tissue is illegal in the U.S. As far as we know, no one in the current kerfuffle has been charged with such a crime, but if the evidence supports such a charge, they should be prosecuted.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:12 AM
6
06
12
AM
PDT
Barry Arrington: No self-evidently true statement has ever been proven false. Bald claim followed by ad hominem. You might try providing an argument instead. If you define self-evident as one which is not capable of contradiction, then the truths in the U.S. Declaration of Independence are not self-evident. However, the term as used in the Declaration means truths that can be garnered through introspection. If you accept the truths, then the syllogism in the Declaration will be persuasive. If you do not accept the truths, then you will not be persuaded. King George and the British parliament were not persuaded. They valued duty and stability before the individual pursuit of happiness.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:10 AM
6
06
10
AM
PDT
Popperian, Surely you can do better than to distort and misrepresent my argument. Yet you don't. Surely you can do better than stamping your foot and asserting "it's poss-i-bool; it's poss-i-bool." Yet you don't.Barry Arrington
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:10 AM
6
06
10
AM
PDT
I'm curious Zachriel. Are you, like eigenstate, in favor of chopping up little unborn babies and selling their parts like meat? The reason I am curious is there seems to be a one-to-one correlation between those who deny self-evident truth and those who are OK with chopping up little unborn babies and selling their parts like meat. And if I am wrong about that I would like to know.Barry Arrington
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:08 AM
6
06
08
AM
PDT
Barry:
P and Q are similar in respect to properties a and b. P has been observed to have further property c. Therefore, Q probably has property c also.
Conciseness must be emergent because we've observed emergent explanations in the past? Why do you insist in putting me in a box I do not belong in? Specifically, I've presented criticism of inductivism on the same thread. Yet, you've just assumed I'm making an inductive argument. Surely, you can do better than this?Popperian
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:07 AM
6
06
07
AM
PDT
Zachriel
Not only can some so-called self-evident truths be proven false
No, Z, they can't. No self-evidently true statement has ever been proven false. You don't understand the nature of self-evident truth. You have a nasty habit of pontificating on matters about which you don't have a clue.Barry Arrington
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:05 AM
6
06
05
AM
PDT
eigenstate is evil, and because he is evil he can acknowledge that a developing human "is both fully human and full alive" and then in the next breath say that Planned Parenthood employees are doing an affirmatively good thing when they chop up that fully human and fully alive being and sell its parts like meat.Barry Arrington
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
06:03 AM
6
06
03
AM
PDT
Barry Arrington: The ancients knew the earth was round and even calculated its circumference. The world didn't start with Eratosthenes. People long thought the world was self-evidently flat. Barry Arrington: By definition, a self-evident proposition can never be proven to be false. Not only can some so-called self-evident truths be proven false, some can be said to be self-evidently false. For instance, "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal..." Well, it's clear that people are not created equal, but vary considerably in skills, capacity, and inherited wealth and power. In particular, King George III would have said that he was born to rule his subjects, and that a person's primary duty was to his lord, not to the pursuit of happiness. This was the self-evident truth of the Middle Ages. Self-evident truths apparently have a limited shelf-life.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
05:51 AM
5
05
51
AM
PDT
eigenstate mocks, scoffs and ridicules at 14. Noticeably absent -- even the slightest hint of how the physical produces the mental. For those of you who might be tempted by eigenstate's bluff, I commend you to world famous atheist Thomas Nagel's Mind and Cosmos, where he acknowledges the logical incoherence of exactly eigenstate's position. Which just goes to show you don't have to be a theist to understand that the physical cannot produce the mental; you don't have to be an ID proponent to understand the physical does not produce the mental. You just have to be honest.Barry Arrington
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
05:45 AM
5
05
45
AM
PDT
DK,
But you might consider the following examples of things that are or have been considered to be self-evident: The earth is flat.
Daniel, as the wag said, "it is not what you don't know that is bad; it is what you do know that just isn't so." Here's an example. The ancients knew the earth was round and even calculated its circumference. Your other examples are also not examples of "self-evident" propositions. By definition, a self-evident proposition can never be proven to be false.Barry Arrington
August 20, 2015
August
08
Aug
20
20
2015
05:37 AM
5
05
37
AM
PDT
Hi, Barry, I noticed that your response didn't address my questions:
Does the immaterial mind interact at all with anything material? How does your immaterial mind communicate with your typing fingers?
I would appreciate your thoughts on those items.Daniel King
August 19, 2015
August
08
Aug
19
19
2015
04:55 PM
4
04
55
PM
PDT
The self-evident is untestable. It is that with which we test everything else.
Barry, I appreciate your comment, especially because you noticed me and didn't insult me. But you might consider the following examples of things that are or have been considered to be self-evident: The earth is flat. The sun moves around the earth. Heavier objects fall more rapidly than lighter objects. Men are superior to women.Daniel King
August 19, 2015
August
08
Aug
19
19
2015
04:46 PM
4
04
46
PM
PDT
@Barry, Wow, this may be the poorest thinking I've seen in your posts, and that's saying something...
As for your question about substance dualism, I am not a substance dualist, so I won’t speak for them. If you are asking me whether I am invoking the existence of the immaterial mind as some sort of “theory,” I am not. The existence of the immaterial mind is a datum, not a theory.
it's not a datum, and can't be. There's nothing to measure, nothing to capture "as the daturm". If that's not clear, start with this: Barry, intuitions about the omniscience of his intuitions notwithstanding, thinks: "I can't feel my brain or my thoughts when I think, it must be immaterial". That is a conjecture, and it's logically possible that it's correct. But it's not a datum, its a conclusion that can otherwise be explained: "My mind is the physical activity of my brain, I just can't feel it or sense it as tactile process when I think". Also an explanation. Everybody who reads you Barry, friend and foe alike, understands the, uh, not-so-sneaky reflex you have of hiding any belief or conjecture behind "self-evidently true", or "unassailable fact", but this is perhaps the most conspicuous case of that kind of intellectual cowardice yet. Do you know anyone else in the intellectual history of philosophy and science who would agree with you that your intuition of mind as immaterial makes that a fact (that's what a datum is)? If we read an instrument, and get a reading from it - say 25 degrees celsius from a thermometer, we have a datum. It's not specified or needed for what it's measuring, or even if it is measuring correctly (perhaps the thermometer needs to be calibrated), it's a fact that obtains intersubjectively, and is not subject to interpretation in terms of the value of the datum. LIke I said, it may be controversial as to whether the thermometer is calibrated or functioning correctly, but the datum of the number being displayed is not a matter of conjecture or controversy. Something to keep in mind when you're cooking up howlers like this. It you pointed what critical skills you have at your own posts, you'd have to fall back to just posting links to current news stories.
It is, in fact, the primordial datum. Its existence is denied only at the price of patent absurdity and self-referential incoherence — a price materialists are eager to pay.
The existence of our thoughts cannot be denied, if we are thinking thoughts on that subject or any subject -- transcendentally true. But that's not the issue. The question how the mind obtains, and a physical mind-as-activity-of-the-brain neither introduces absurdities or incoherencies. An immaterial mind is problematic in ways a wholly physical mind is not, but it also does not obligate us to absurdities or logical contradictions. This is pre-remedial stuff, Barry. Your claims don't even rise to juvenile. If you doubt that, we can go through relevant pages of, say, The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and look at the basic concepts your bungling badly - 'self-evidence', datum vs. conjecture, theory of mind, etc. You're not even on the playing field here, Barry. Maybe one of your ID supporters will be kind enough to point this out, and that might give you some more tribal friendly basis for a little introspection here, but given your penchant for defending yourself from criticism with denigration and verbal abuse, I won't be surprised if your left to wallow as you are. Mind as immaterial, because it's a datum. Let the record show, your Honor, that this is what we are dealing with.eigenstate
August 19, 2015
August
08
Aug
19
19
2015
02:19 PM
2
02
19
PM
PDT
PS to #11: I should add that in your example, the conclusion would be that evolution has not been falsified by this particular test.daveS
August 19, 2015
August
08
Aug
19
19
2015
01:13 PM
1
01
13
PM
PDT
Peter: If evolution is true you will see gradual changes over time from ape to man (p). We see creatures that look like they could have evolved (q). Therefore evolution is true. q => p. No. Therefore evolution is scientifically supported. As daveS points out, it is hypothetico-deduction. The more ways we can support a hypothesis, the more confidence we will have in our conclusion. With regards to the evolution of humans, we might then look for genetic evidence, which happens to also confirm the pattern of branching descent.Zachriel
August 19, 2015
August
08
Aug
19
19
2015
01:11 PM
1
01
11
PM
PDT
Peter, Isn't what you describe simply the hypothetico-deductive method? Not to mention, it's impossible to show that there could be no other reasons for the various hominids found in the fossil record.daveS
August 19, 2015
August
08
Aug
19
19
2015
12:42 PM
12
12
42
PM
PDT
Evolutionists have made a far worse logical fallacy than this. You often see the picture of ape to man showing a gradual series of changes. All the creatures have existed, so it is powerful evidence for evolution, except that the user of the picture is committing the affirming the consequence logical error. If evolution is true you will see gradual changes over time from ape to man (p). We see creatures that look like they could have evolved (q). Therefore evolution is true. q => p. This is a fallacy because evolution is the theory that creatures change between species. It has not been shown that any of the creatures could **only** have evolved from one species to another. There could be other reasons that there were different hominids. This fallacy also applies to homology and dna variation. There is no laboratory evidence ever showing one species ever having evolved into another. Homology assumes evolution is true based on similar structures. DNA variation assumes evolution to be true. Since 90 percent of the so-called evidence for evolution is homology and DNA variation, there is almost NO evidence for evolution. The only explanation for university professors inability to recognize these elementary logic errors is because it would upset their religious beliefs.Peter
August 19, 2015
August
08
Aug
19
19
2015
12:26 PM
12
12
26
PM
PDT
DK @ 8: The self-evident is untestable. It is that with which we test everything else.Barry Arrington
August 19, 2015
August
08
Aug
19
19
2015
12:19 PM
12
12
19
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply