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Response to Gabriel

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I made the following response in the commentary on another thread. Because some people thought it deserved to become an article in its own right… here it is.

Also with an apology to Jonathan Wells for calling him a “Moonie”. I had no idea it was considered by many to be derogatory. I thought it was merely a neutral descriptive like “Jehovah” or “Mormon” or “Amish”.

Gabriel

don’t try to tell me that Christianity is not the engine running the ID movement

Obviously then we’re already guilty by association in your mind.

Guilt by association is a logical fallacy.

You can’t ask any ID proponents to give up their religious faith anymore than you can ask an atheist Darwinist to acquire some religious faith. That isn’t how science works.

However, since I’m not a religious person I can quite easily give up any notion that the designer of either the universe or of life itself is a deity. I have no data on the nature of the designer other than what I can determine through the nature of the design.

Now I’d like to ask you if it is true that either 1) life was designed in part or in whole or 2) life was not designed in any part. Is this a valid dichotomy? Is there a middle ground between the two choices?

If you agree that’s a valid dichotomy then is it true that some scientists are claiming and teaching that life was not designed?

If this is true then, and remembering your own concession (which I agree with) that there are no proofs in science, and the history of the origin and diversification of life is shrouded in millions and billions of years of antiquity (I accept both an old earth and universal common descent as the best current explanations for empiric observations), how can this claim be falsified?

I put to you that the claim can not be truly falsified as that would require proof of design and in science there are no proofs. It may only be rendered more doubtful than design in the heirarchy of possible explanations. It can be rendered more doubtful by either negative evidence (flaws) in the non-design theory itself and by positive evidence of design theory. Positive evidence has been ruled out of the question by definition rather than by analysis. Even though SETI, for example, can legitimately search through cosmic radio patterns in the universe for intelligent agency without any clue or promise of being able to discover the nature or source of the intelligence, it seems that applying the same search parameters to patterns found in living things or patterns in the laws that govern the universe, is no longer “science” as it is in SETI. A double standard is brought to light.

Other positive evidence of intelligent agency is 1) we know it exists in the universe today (it is ourselves) so we know that intelligent agency is possible and 2) the same agency is capable of doing the kind of things that need to be done to plan and/or alter the course of evolution for purposeful ends (designing and/or changing heritable DNA sequences; i.e. genetic engineering).

So we offer positive evidence that detection of design is an acceptable scientific methodology used in many disciplines (cryptology, forensic sciences, archeology, SETI, and so forth), we offer positive evidence that an intelligent designing agency is extant at least in the modern universe which proves that such agency can and does exist in nature, and we offer positive evidence, by demonstration, that intelligent agency is capable of the necessary tasks in directing or steering the course of organic evolution. We lack a smoking gun but that’s not unexpected when the trigger was pulled millions or billions of years ago. The gun and the weilder may no longer exist but the putative bullet holes (the effects), so to speak, remain for us to examine.

The counter-claim that chance & necessity is capable of the necessary tasks has not been demonstrated. It has not been shown that small mutations can ever accumulate into significant novel functional architectures that we observe in living things today. It has not been shown feasible by computer simulations of population genetics, in a laboratory, or in field observation. Yet this undemonstrated means of achieving grand ends has a legally enforced privilege of being the only possible explanation for the origin and diversity of life taught to our children in public schools. It is illegal to question the exclusive theory in a public school (see the Cobb County, Georgia “sticker” case where a disclaimer sticker attached to a biology textbook saying “evolution is a theory, not a fact, and should be critically examined” was ruled unconstitutional) and where mention of the name of any alternative to evolution by pure chance & necessity is also illegal (see Dover, PA trial where a verbal advisory to students that there exist alternative explanations to evolution by chance alone such as intelligent design was ruled unconstitutional).

So what do you propose we do? The gatekeepers of scientific orthodoxy, by majority rule (since when did science become decided by majorities?), or by claiming constitutional authority, who are demonstrably (we have the appropriate surveys to show) a majority composed of atheists, have a vested interest in the exclusionary practices set forth above to further entrench and expand their worldview in all segments of public schooling from kindergarten through post-doctorate.

How do you propose we respond to these unfair, Draconian methods arrayed against us? We do what we can to fight them in the courts where they block our right to have our children taught about the weaknesses of current theory and the nature of alternative theories, we do what we can to expose the ostracism, black balling, and career wrecking of scholars who support ID in public colleges and universities, we blog, we write books. We use whatever means are legally and ethically available to thwart or workaround the gatekeeper’s exclusionary practices. Is any of what we do somehow wrong or unfair in your opinion?

And please do me the courtesy of acknowledging that in no case did I use the holy bible (which I consider to be no more than a collection of stories, myths, legends, and largely unverifiable eyewitness accounts created and/or compiled by human authors with human agendas) to support my case in any fashion. My irreligious nature may not be a majority in ID circles but that doesn’t seem to have excluded me from it. Bill Dembski’s co-author in his latest book, Jonathan Wells, who is also a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, is a Moonie for Pete’s sake. Wells believes some living dude in Korea or somewhere similar named the Reverend Moon is the messiah. It’s hard to imagine a more anti-Christian religion than holding out someone other than Christ as the savior. Yet Moonie Wells and agnostic David Scot Springer (me) are still solidly in the ID camp inner circles. Berlinski and Stein are Jews. The ID community is largely composed of Christians, that’s true, but the U.S. population is largely composed of Christians. One should expect that the frequency of different religious beliefs of ID adherents would reflect that of population in general if there is no religious bias, and it more or less does reflect that distribution. It reflects that distribution a hell of a lot more than the gatekeepers of scientific orthodoxy embodied in the National Academy of Science which is, survey says, composed of 70% positive atheists, 21% agnostics, and 9% believers in some sort of deity. THAT, my friend, is WAY out of line with the general population. If you want to talk about religious conspiracies in the science establishment I’ve got the smoking gun for you and it ain’t Christians holding it.

Comments
StephenB The question was not who made dirt. The question was what aspect of life on the planet earth would require violating some law of physics in its creation.DaveScot
August 26, 2008
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Certainly conciousness and mind are candidates for requiring transcendence in their design and creation. Which physical law do you believe must be violated to create a mind or consciousness and why?DaveScot
August 26, 2008
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"I’ve a standing challenge to my cohorts to describe to me what aspect of life on this planet requires a designer able to transcend the laws of physics." The mind?William J. Murray
August 26, 2008
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Truly oustanding argument, Dave! A few tweaks and you should submit it for publication to a much wider audience. Clearly, God exists, and I (and many others) do believe in one true triune God. While there is no strength in numbers when it comes to religion, I do pray that He calls you, and Jonathan Wells, too. Meanwhile, I am not sure if you've seen this, but there is a an AAAS Propaganda video out in which Jennifer Miller of Dover fame claims to be a scientist (and a sunday school teacher and a preacher's daughter). Do you know of any articles Jennifer Miller has had published in a peer reviewed scientific journal? Double standard on the part of the evolanders?William Wallace
August 25, 2008
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Dave @23: >> You didn’t tell me what aspect of life on this planet requires a transcendent designer. Does consciousness qualify as a possible candidate?Spiny Norman
August 25, 2008
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Dave: I’m not sure I can refute your argument that a material entity operating entirely within the laws of physics can design life. But, because the entity is inside of those laws, it cannot create them, and therefore is just as dependant on a transcendent, self existent being as the laws themselves. In other words, even if one can design from the inside (I’m not sure), one can create only from the outside. You’ve heard the relevant joke, I am sure: The upstart innovator tells God he could have designed the world just as well, so God tells him to go get his own dirt.StephenB
August 25, 2008
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StephenB You didn't tell me what aspect of life on this planet requires a transcendent designer. I'm not going to argue that if we play the game of who designed the designer we don't run into the logical problem of needing an uncaused cause but for life on earth we don't have to attempt an infinite regression. We're only talking about what it would take to design the life on our planet. My position is that a material entity operating entirely within the known laws of physics could do it. If you disagree then describe some physical aspect of life as we know it that would require violating the laws of physics to design and assemble it. Perhaps there may be such aspects but I don't know of any and no one so far has been able to present one to me. DaveScot
August 25, 2008
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-----Dave: "I’ve a standing challenge to my cohorts to describe to me what aspect of life on this planet requires a designer able to transcend the laws of physics. No such description has been given" I would agree that science cannot deal with such a daunting challenge, however, I think reason itself independent of science has something to say: Three principles can guide us here. [A] Something cannot come from nothing, and [B] a thing cannot create itself, and [C] if anything exists, something always existed. A thing cannot create itself because that would mean it had to be before it was. So, the concept of self creation is irrational. That leaves us understanding that everything we take for granted, physical laws, life, and all the rest, obviously did not create themselves and had to come into being from some outside source. By outside I mean a self existent being that has the power of being within itself and depends on nothing outside itself. This self-existent being produces all else including matter itself. That would be my brief argument against materialism.StephenB
August 25, 2008
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bFast, DaveScot: I see, DaveScot, what you are saying in short is that there is nothing in biology that could not be reasonably explained as the product of another intelligent being. As Dave noted a while back regarding Ancient Sea anemones having seemingly human-like genes:
Nothing in evolution makes sense except in the light of front loading.
So the question remains, what kind of non-transcendent intelligence (aside from "The Ancients") can with remarkable precision 'front load' a genome 700 million years in advance without also knowing with remarkable precision what 700 million years later would be needed? What kind of non-transcendent intelligence has both that kind of precision and that kind of foresight to effect such front loading?Charles
August 25, 2008
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I see, DaveScot, what you are saying in short is that there is nothing in biology that could not be reasonably explained as the product of another intelligent being. Or, given some uninterrupted technological growth, say 100 years, we humans could search out a neighboring heavenly body, say Titan, and do a teraforming project that in every way resembles what has happened on earth. Though intelligence is required, there is nothing "supernatural" required to produce biology. If this is what you are saying, I fully agree with you. There is nothing I see in modern biology that requires anything more than intelligence of the kind we have, and technology of the kind that we have, albiet in a significantly enhanced form. Ie, biology does not in any way prove the "supernatural" nature of the intelligent agent(s).bFast
August 25, 2008
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Gil I'm pretty sure all research into fundamental physics is reasonably expected to have practical applications and that belief is as old as physics itself.DaveScot
August 25, 2008
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bFast I consider intelligent agency to be part of the material universe. Therefore when considering the origin of life on this planet I presume that intelligent agency operating within the confines of physical law could explain it. Of course that raises the question of the origin of the intelligent agency but that's a different question and I don't have any data to apply to that question - as far as I know intelligence preceded matter not the other way around or perhaps there's an equation like E=MC^2 where matter and intelligence are two manifestations of the same underlying thing and like matter & energy the transformation can go both ways. I simply can't do more than speculate about things for which I have no empirical data.DaveScot
August 25, 2008
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Dave in 12 & 13 is right. The laws of physics need not be “transcended” in the creation and diversification of life on this planet. Dave does not deny transcendence for the laws themselves: “The whole universe, on the other hand, which also appears to be a product of intelligent design, I cannot find a way to explain by well known laws and theories of physics.” As for a challenge here, I’ve seen it only from the TEs who seem to insist that if there were physical evidence for a divine hand it would transcend even logic and therefore we couldn’t possibly recognize it. Logic, let us concede, is a part of ultimate reality that even God does not transcend. TEs who speculate otherwise end up with theological gibberish and an epistemological foundation of sand. The mathematical realist sees a hierarchy where logic and mathematics are necessary and the laws of physics more likely contingent. One area where we may disagree but I predict that as ID theorists we will eventually agree is in regard to the elementarity of agency. Because ID recognizes Design (along with chance and necessity) as explanatory and that in our experience Design is produced only by Intelligence, therefore it should be difficult to maintain that intelligence “emerges” from pure mechanism—i.e., from chance and necessity. If there is a law of biogenesis maybe we can invoke a law of intelligence: Intelligence comes only from intelligence. Here is where Angus Menuge and Denyse O’Leary/Mario Beauregard come in and where possibly some of us may disagree at this time.Rude
August 25, 2008
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DaveScot, your post is confusing, as if your name is attached to someone else's words. You said:
I’ve a standing challenge to my cohorts to describe to me what aspect of life on this planet requires a designer able to transcend the laws of physics. No such description has been given
I've played an active role on this site for a couple of years, I have never noticed this standing challenge. And You said:
The facts surrounding the origin and diversification of life on earth can be explained by materialist means IMO.
Yet I know that you have said that the OOL question remains insurmountable via natural means. I remember you saying that if this question could be answered, ID would be irrelevant, or something of that nature. Of this, I agree with you. There are many mysteries in genome, such as the irreduceable complexity of the bacterial flagellum, but if the OOL question can be genuinely answered (soup to DNA based life) it would answer many other ID claims, including irreduceable complexity and CSI. Have you changed your mind? Are you now of the belief that there is a natural explanation for the orgin of life? If so, do tell.bFast
August 25, 2008
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DaveScot:
I’m an engineer and I’m pretty much only interested in science that leads to discoveries with practical application and as a taxpayer that’s the only science I’m willing to fund...
In general I agree, however, I'm in favor of funding basic research in the hard sciences and mathematics (not Mickey Mouse "science" like Darwinism) with no immediately obvious practical benefits, because practical benefits often come from unexpected places. For many years my dad was involved NMR (nuclear magnetic resonance) research, and I'm sure no one thought at first that it would find a use in the medical field through MRI (magnetic resonance imaging). An arcane area of mathematical number theory eventually found a use in the RSA public-key encryption system, which is now the encryption method used for virtually everything (including all those https websites and secure online transactions and data transfer).GilDodgen
August 25, 2008
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DaveScot I’ve a standing challenge to my cohorts to describe to me what aspect of life on this planet requires a designer able to transcend the laws of physics. No such description has been given... You never received any responses to this challenge, or none you felt met your qualifications? You are an advocate of 'front loading', yes? Doesn't the appearance of 'front loading' suggest such a designer? Or do you argue there is no proof any designer is actually transcendent, that without proof of the designer's identity and provenance, you would argue the designer could just as well be a non-transcendant advanced extraterrestrial? Not arguing, just looking to understand why your challenge has gone unmet.Charles
August 25, 2008
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in the sense that Christianity has been the engine running the whole scientific enterprise for at least the last 500 years Possibly supportable on a cultural basis in a general sense but certainly not at the level of individual participants. Examine the list of Nobel prize winners and you'll find plenty of non-Christians on it, far more than one would expect based upon the religious distribution in the underlying general population. Way too many Jews, agnostics, and atheists. But these people almost all performed their work in and around and through a predominantly Christian culture. Christian culture, particularly that descended from the Protestant Reformation which turned capitalism from an economic thesis into a religious imperative, I believe can be rightly given most of the credit for post enlightenment scientific achievement - not at all due to Christian thought in the laboratory but rather of the success of Christian culture which paid for and encouraged the scientific research. And it encouraged the research primarily because the results of the research could be leveraged for economic success which in the Protestant Reformed world was taken as a measure of success in the eyes of God (Protestant Work Ethic). So capitalism I think is ultimately responsible for the success of post enlightenment science and the Protestant Reformation is ultimately responsible for the support and expansion of capitalism.DaveScot
August 25, 2008
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liz Took you off moderation. Sometimes new-member critics get so verbose there's not enough time to respond to all their challenges. Often they insist on repeating objections we've all heard before and that's cause for banishment rather than going through a rehash of arguments that are never settled in the mind of the critic. If a critic enters basically parroting stuff found in talk.origins with an unshakeable faith that his or her source is correct then from experience I know there will be nothing productive as a result. It's frustrating to all involved so I just quash it as soon as it becomes apparent. You're not quite right about me. I'm a materialist as far as materialism can possibly and reasonably explain the facts. The facts surrounding the origin and diversification of life on earth can be explained by materialist means IMO. I've a standing challenge to my cohorts to describe to me what aspect of life on this planet requires a designer able to transcend the laws of physics. No such description has been given so for now I work under the assumption that life, on this planet anyhow, does not or did not require the involvement of a transcendent agency. The whole universe, on the other hand, which also appears to be a product of intelligent design, I cannot find a way to explain by well known laws and theories of physics. The multiverse hypothesis doesn't hold water for a number of reasons IMO so for the nonce as far as I'm concerned cosmological origins seems to require some transcendent form of intelligence. Since there doesn't seem to be any way to investigate what came before the origin of the observable universe it doesn't hold much interest for me. I'm only interested in the further pursuit of knowledge not beating my head against an impenetrable brick wall. The origin and diversification of life on this planet is amenable to further investigation since there's a lot of the observable universe still awaiting observation while the origin of the observable universe, or what lies beyond it, is by definition not observable. One of your points on another thread that I noted was that science is largely interested in practical results. I'm an engineer and I'm pretty much only interested in science that leads to discoveries with practical application and as a taxpayer that's the only science I'm willing to fund, but I don't think that applies to science or scientists in general where knowledge is pursued just for knowledge itself. Anyhow, in that light, I think evolutionary biology writ large is a complete waste of time and money. There are plenty of practical things that further understanding of microevolution might entail since microevolution is going on around us all the time but for practical applications I can't what use there is in worrying about how or why bacteria evolved into single celled eukaryotes or how they evolved into multicellular forms, whether whales came from hippos or something else, birds from dinosaurs, men from reptiles, and so forth. That has no practical concern. All living forms on this planet, so far as we can tell, are deeply related to each other. How they came to be related is rather irrelevant given we can characterize the relationships, in the cases where they matter, empirically. No needs to believe that mice and men shared a common ancestor or diverged by random mutation & selection to know that mice make good model animals for medical research. We know that by comparative anatomy and experience working with them. No matter how mice and men came to be anatomically similar the similarities remain the same and can be empirically determined.DaveScot
August 25, 2008
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So I see. Yeah, I don't know why I didn't Google it. For some reason I just presumed the content of a textbook would not be online. Dumb.Charlie
August 25, 2008
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I actually posted the wrong citation. BarryA's citation is correct.tragicmishap
August 25, 2008
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Charlie: "Garrett and Grisham's BIOCHEMISTRY" Second edition, Saunders College Publishing, Fort Worth, Philadelphia, etc.., pp. 98" I'm not sure about the year because I don't have the book in front of me. This citation is from my notes. But I believe the publishing year was 1999. Google is my friend. Eric: I was being sarcastic, but thanks for explaining why a passage with phrases like "most of the time", "it is conceivable", "most likely", and "some kind" is not actually evidence. For comparison, the paragraph immediately preceding this passage: ""Loss-of-function Mutations: Generally, loss-of-function (null) mutations are found to be recessive. In a wild-type diploid cell, there are two wild-type alleles of a gene, both making normal gene product. In heterozygotes (the crucial genotypes for testing dominance or recessiveness), the single wild-type allele may be able to provide enough normal gene product to produce a wild-type phenotype. In such cases, loss-of-function mutations are recessive. In some cases, the cell is able to "upregulate" the level of activity of the single wild-type allele so that in the heterozygote the total amount of wild-type gene product is more than half that found in the homozygous wild type. However, some loss-of-function mutations are dominant. In such cases, the single wild-type allele in the heterozygote cannot provide the amount of gene product needed for the cells and the organism to be wild type." Notice the replacement of the suspect phrases with words like, "null mutations", "diploid cell", "alleles", and "upregulate". This type of specific language greatly increases a student's learning experience and the publisher is advised to include such scientific treatment in all relevant passages in the future.tragicmishap
August 25, 2008
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Thanks BarryA, "Pure random chance" references come in handy sometimes.Charlie
August 25, 2008
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Surely Gabriel had a point (though not the point he intended) in the sense that Christianity has been the engine running the whole scientific enterprise for at least the last 500 years. I have referred to Rodney Stark's book "The Victory of Reason", which argues this point very cogently, in this forum before, and Steve Fuller's article of a few days ago reinforced this by making the point that "[ancient] atomism became such a powerful force in the Scientific Revolution only once it underwent theological domestication, such that chance came to be seen as a mechanism that God used to good effect as part of an overall design strategy". The fact that Darwinism has led part of the scientific enterprise down a blind alley and slowed the rate of progress in that area for the last 150 years doesn't detract from underlying historical fact.Stephen Morris
August 25, 2008
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The citation to the passage tragicmishap quotes is [2] is Griffiths, et al, An Introduction to Genetic Analysis, p. 472 (1999)BarryA
August 25, 2008
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Hi Tragicmishap, Could you give the title and year of that text for future reference?Charlie
August 24, 2008
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Actually, my college biology textbook DOES teach the primary weakness of evolutionary theory: "Gain-of-function mutations: Because mutations events introduce random genetic changes, most of the time they result in loss of function. The mutation events are like bullets being fired at a complex machine; most of the time they will inactivate it. However, it is conceivable that in rare cases a bullet will strike the machine in such a way that it produces some new function. So it is with mutation events; sometimes the random change by pure chance confers some new function on the gene. In a heterozygote, the new function will be expressed, and therefore the gain-of-function mutation most likely will act like a dominant allele and produce some kind of new phenotype." Of course no real examples are given , because there are none. The textbook did include a helpful diagram. Though, I wish they had left the diagram without color so I could color it in myself. :( But in light of this argument against evolution, Dave should probably rethink his bullet and bullet-hole analogy. And the textbook editor should be fired.tragicmishap
August 24, 2008
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Gabriel, "don’t try to tell me that Christianity is not the engine running the ID movement." This reminded me immediately of a thread on Telic Thoughts entitled, "What Jesus claimed about himself" (http://telicthoughts.com/open-thread-3/) One thing is very obvious from this thread -- for the most part these guys ain't theologians. Michael Denton, an agnostic, brought Behe to the light. Behe, a Catholic, is part of a faith that has no direct criticism with darwinism. Mike Gene, whoever he is, has revealed that he holds to no established religion. One could argue a case when considering Dembski, but I don't know if you could make a case with any of the other senior fellows of the Discovery Institute. Sheut, I've watched folk get kicked of of Uncommon Descent for focusing too much on the Bible, and not enough on the evidence. Gabriel -- nope.bFast
August 24, 2008
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DaveScot: Thanks for letting my comments through in the other thread. It's hard to keep straight everyone's personal take on ID, and I may be misunderstanding you. Do you claim only that material, intelligent agents are the cause of a certain kind of configurations of matter, and not that non-material intelligence is the cause?Liz Lizard
August 24, 2008
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