Sabine Hossenfelder argues that the multiverse is “no better than God”

_{Denyse O'Leary

August 1, 2021

Intelligent Design, Multiverse, theism}

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It’s not just theists who have problems with the multiverse. Sabine Hossenfelder explains her reservations.
The Big Conversation is a video series from Unbelievable? featuring world-class thinkers across the religious and non-religious community. Exploring science, faith, philosophy and what it means to be human. The Big Conversation is produced by Premier in partnership with John Templeton Foundation.
Luke Barnes, “The Multiverse is no better than God” at The Big Conversation (July 31, 2021)

Here’s the full version, with over 2700 comments:

Many physicists have pointed out the extraordinary ‘fine tuning’ of the physical laws of the universe that have allowed life to develop within the cosmos.
Luke Barnes believes it gives evidence for a designer behind the cosmos, whereas Sabine Hossenfelder disagrees, questioning whether we can even speak of ‘fine tuning’ as a phenomenon.
Luke Barnes, “The fine tuning of the Universe: Was the cosmos made for us?” at The Big Conversation (July 31, 2021)

See also: Sabine Hossenfelder: Is math real? Hossenfelder: The physicists who believe in this argue that unobservable universes are real because they are in their math. But just because you have math for something doesn’t mean it’s real. You can just assume it’s real, but this is unnecessary to describe what we observe and therefore unscientific.

Comments

WJM
(1) virtually nobody I love will be making it to that heaven;
When you think about the love you have for your wife, for example - the origin of the love is from God. The love you have for her is multiplied to an infinite level for the God who created her and gave her to you in your life. I mean, that is one way to look at it.
(2) absent a nearly complete mind-wipe of who I am as an individual, there’s no way I can possibly be happy there,
In the traditional Christian view, everything that could possibly make you happy is there. Actually, you can apply some of the reasoning of MRT to this. All of the information that creates the experience of happiness for you now, and which you use to judge heaven, was created by God and given to you by Him so you would know what happiness is and thus desire it eternally.
and (3) I’d have to completely ignore a lifetime of experiences and dismiss them as delusional or from some “evil” influence.
Or you could reinterpret them from a different perspective perhaps.Silver Asiatic_{August 14, 2021
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are the ones I love who have never believed in Christianity going to heaven?
They could. I believe some forms of Christianity have not ruled this out. But are these discussions coming to what is really important to some people and underlying most of the dissension, not ID but Christianity.jerry_{August 14, 2021
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At the risk of sounding like a universalist, I would say, maybe. Just like anyone who's never heard of Christianity, or infants or children, they're all going--I think it's possible for this loving God, if he is who he claims to be, knows every thought and every heart, I would trust that he knows who wants what, perfectly, and therefore, maybe so. For someone like Jack, I would say no, for hell for Jack would be an eternity with the one he so despises. I don't believe in Universalism, because it renders the concept of justice incoherent. It puts Hitler, Mao, Stalin in an eternal reward, and to do so castrates justice before it even hits puberty. Maybe.AnimatedDust_{August 14, 2021
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WJM, your being under duress your entire life is a choice, not a requirement.
No. Under the premise, I did not choose to come here.
What do you lose by surrender?
Everything I love.
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
When what I cannot keep is everything I love, and what I cannot lose is something I have no love for, it's a no-win situation as far as I'm concerned.
I just think you’re basing your conclusions about what it is and isn’t, not from deep lifelong study and clear apprehension of the tenets, with the help of trusted scholars, but a misunderstanding of them. I could be wrong.
The only question that needs to be answered is simple: are the ones I love who have never believed in Christianity going to heaven?William J Murray_{August 14, 2021
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When you follow the case that Charles made for the supernatural prophecy in Daniel 9 foretelling the precise arrival of Christ 487 years later, you can't just dismiss the Bible as another book. People like Jack can handwave it away and call Jesus Christ a monster, but that doesn't change anything about what's reality or not. Jesus Christ is the exact opposite of a monster. And loves us despite our rejection of him, and the free gift of eternal life. Could I be wrong? Sure. But since the entire Bible is about Jesus Christ, and no figure in human history has had more of a positive impact on the this terrible fallen world, if his message is properly understood and carried out, this figure deserves our attention. All of it. And if we are wrong, it's just lights out, if you're a materialist, but not really, because we know materialism as the explanation of how we came to be is false. And the other two systems we are talking about involve life beyond death, as you and Irene appear to have already demonstrated. Regardless, if this universal consciousness follows the IRT model, or the Christian model, the one thing we can't get away from is the designing intelligence. If Kastrup and Irwin, and you, for that matter, think that it's just infinite informational potential, without a causal agent, that seems more like avoidance, than any attempt at hard science. The atheistic scientific community has been doing that for a 150 years. That's why their evolutionary papers are so ridiculous. They get jammed up the moment they start to describe purpose, which is inextricable from living systems. The most amazing design we know, and can see the moment we are observing our hand open and close, knowing what's going on behind that simple movement.AnimatedDust_{August 14, 2021
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WJM, your being under duress your entire life is a choice, not a requirement. What do you lose by surrender? He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. The E ticket ride has never been cheaper. Though I often declare that the worst thing about Christianity is the Christians, and that's true, Christianity has done more positive in the world than any other system of belief. I just think you're basing your conclusions about what it is and isn't, not from deep lifelong study and clear apprehension of the tenets, with the help of trusted scholars, but a misunderstanding of them. I could be wrong. Regardless what I am seeing from Klee Irwin, is that his musings are trying to solve the mysteries of IRT without the mind in the equation. It's more folly, just like materialism. But I am exposing myself to it, and appreciate your taking me in this direction.AnimatedDust_{August 14, 2021
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Hey Jack, why so bitter? Why are you not that bitter about the tooth fairy? Or Santa? You don't get to simultaneously hate God, and declare his inexistence. You'd be more honest if you'd just admit it: He's real, and you know it, and you hate him. Now, how do you turn that heart of stone into a heart of flesh? Choose wisely.AnimatedDust_{August 14, 2021
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WJM, did you notice the shift from warrant towards truth, to worldview preference in the just above? That, by the back door, highlights the significance of first duties of reason and the tied point that the due end of reason is truth, accurate, reliable grasping of reality. KFkairosfocus_{August 14, 2021
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Vivid & Jack, IMO once you adopt the premises, the internal logic of Christianity is fine. Apologetics has been refining those arguments for centuries. Also, there's evidence that supports Christianity, including the evidence of the experiences of countless Christians. My fundamental issue with Christianity is that, even agreeing arguendo that it is all entirely true, (1) virtually nobody I love will be making it to that heaven; (2) absent a nearly complete mind-wipe of who I am as an individual, there's no way I can possibly be happy there, and (3) I'd have to completely ignore a lifetime of experiences and dismiss them as delusional or from some "evil" influence. The additional problem is, the premises themselves don't make any sense to me. I understand this is just my personal reaction, but as Jack alluded to, under that premise I did not agree to any of this; from my perspective looking at the premises, I was deliberately forced into existence by a conscious, sentient being and forced into life in a system created by that being. I was given an unknown but very short period of time to make decisions that will determine my eternal fate after I die. Even in law, making a decision under duress is not considered legally binding, yet from the moment I'm born until the day I die I would be living in constant existential duress under such a system. And, I'm supposed to love the person that did this to me with all my heart, and see it all as some wondrous gift to be grateful for? As others here have said about MRT (which I understand and accept,) it's not only that I cannot wrap my mind around that, I don't even want to. I don't ever want to be the person that figures out a way where deliberately forcing that kind of existence on others is okay with me, much less something those created people should be grateful for. I apologize if Christians here find that perspective incendiary, but that is honestly how I see it. I realize Christians don't see it that way, and I respect that perspective. It's just one I will not choose to adopt for myself.William J Murray_{August 14, 2021
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Vivid, kindly, note my PS for the perplexed at 321. The onward references will come up in searches. KFkairosfocus_{August 14, 2021
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Jack Jack August 13, 2021 at 10:42 pm “KF, the phantom you worship is a monster. “Who tortures fallible persons forever”. “You should be ashamed for worshipping such a monster (who doesn’t exist.)” “Shame on you.“” Jack I understand how you can feel this way. I go a bit down that path myself from time to time.any fair observer by just looking at the history of one shit show after another has good preason to call Him a monster. Dare I say it is like he has abandoned his creation. Why should I go to hell I made no decision to be born and now that I am I would rather not be born. I understand where you are coming from Vividvividbleau_{August 14, 2021
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The underlying trifecta fallacy at work is to drag a red herring distractor across the track, led away to strawman caricatures soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, frustrating discussion. Sometimes that is subtly done, but often it is quite crude. Just a note for record, so we can see why -- for cause -- those who insistently play trollish sock puppets need to be removed from UD's discussion threads. PS: If someone perplexed needs to ponder issues on the sins and blessings of our civilisation and its Judaeo-Christian heritage, here on may help.kairosfocus_{August 13, 2021
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Kf, Shut up. You;re just making a fool of yourself.Jack_{August 13, 2021
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Jack, these fallacious accusations have long since been adequately answered and those perplexed are directed to sites that have answers to village atheist, evil bible type objections as part of their remit, try Reasonable Faith, Paul Copan and others. There is no good reason to go into a crocodile death roll on them again. You have here chosen to pose needless toxic distractors and to insist on them in the face of appeal to return to reasonable discussion. That's sad. KFkairosfocus_{August 13, 2021
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KF, the phantom you worship is a monster. Who tortures fallible persons forever. You should be ashamed for worshipping such a monster (who doesn't exist.) Shame on you.Jack_{August 13, 2021
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I trust that you will not repeat such puerility. PS: Boethius might be a useful reflection, in a book written as he was going to be judicially murdered because of nasty court intrigues in the post Empire era in Italy:
“If God exists, whence evil? But whence good, if God does not exist?” [in, Consolation of Philosophy]
kairosfocus_{August 13, 2021
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You can block me if it makes you feel good, but... Your god is a monster. That god doesn't exist. And shame on you for believing in such a monster.Jack_{August 13, 2021
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KF, umm, yeahJack_{August 13, 2021
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Jack, is attitude and accusation what you have? If it is, I suggest you would be well advised to reconsider. KFkairosfocus_{August 13, 2021
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The real creator is not your god. You guys are just holdovers from an ancient tryant god who tortures most of his creations without the creations having any sort of full disclosure about their reality. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Your awful tyrant god doesn't exist. Shame on you for having such a god in your mind. People like you are a problem on this planet.Jack_{August 13, 2021
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Your god is a torturerer. To MOST of his creations.Jack_{August 13, 2021
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WJM, the problems with Kastrup are apparently general ones for worldviews that end in simulationism with it being denied or doubted that there is an objective physical world in which we participate by embodiment as rational, responsible, significantly free creatures; i,e. to the concept that the "external world" is a dubious and/or false theory. This is beyond errors such as claiming that consciousness is our only certainty etc. Could you kindly provide specific reasons as to why the concerns stated do not relate to what you have advocated. KFkairosfocus_{August 13, 2021
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AD
If consciousness is primary, and matter is derivative, which I think we all agree on, excepting the atheists here, then a mind is behind ALL of this. That is a mind not to be trifled with. Information is at the core of it all? Then it came from mind, not mud.
That is good. I think that's also the basis of ID theory when we get to the core of it. There is a Designing Intelligence. It has to be so powerful and essential that it is the primary cause. WJM takes it a lot farther. that there is something outside of ourselves. Otherwise, God and myself are the same thing. Even though, as WJM says, we are just a part of God. A slice of apple pie is 100% apple pie. Instead though, we are created by God but not equivalent to God. That's a big difference with MRT.Silver Asiatic_{August 13, 2021
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SA got to my answer to your question tangentially, and I didn't mind a bit--but first let me say I also appreciate your kind words. I am certainly taking my worldview and seeing if MRT is the neural scaffolding of sorts, as to how God might have done things that way. A peek behind the curtain, so to speak. If we don't overcomplicate it, any intellect that is capable of creating all that we are able to apprehend, that is one giant, powerful mind. That should be obvious. I start with the premise that is lifted straight from Genesis. That God created this world and all the heavens, and did it for us and it was perfect. The big thing that emerges from the description of creation is that it's all for relationship. That undergirds everything else. And so, being the very essence of perfect righteousness, unwilling to be anywhere where sin resides, yet knowing that the love element to our existence, has to involve the ability to say no for it to be real and authentic, he created this temporal place for us to exist in fallen form, just as it is claimed. For us, whatever role consciousness ultimately plays, he intended for this realm to be tangibly real, just as it is to us. What excites me about IRT is that it could be a glimpse into a bit of the HOW, that the Bible is in such short supply on. I find that exciting. If we take seriously the nature of God, as is revealed in Scripture, it seems prudent to think that what he says is important should be taken as important, and doing his will is very very important as well. The ticket into the afterlife is of a realm that makes this indeed seem like "light and temporary troubles." From what people consistently describe during brushes with death during NDEs, it makes it breathtakingly apparent that the realm we are to occupy WITH him, is vastly superior to a world with sin and death. As designed, we can apprehend the infinite and the eternal, and the one thing we want more than anything else is for love that lasts forever. That's part of the promise. You get victory over death, and eternal life with the lover of your soul. Count me in. After more than three decades of police work, I am more than ready to live forever in a world without crime and hate and brokennes and violence--a world infinitely more beautiful than this one, and the creator of the universe to answer all my stupid questions about how he did this and that. If consciousness is primary, and matter is derivative, which I think we all agree on, excepting the atheists here, then a mind is behind ALL of this. That is a mind not to be trifled with. Information is at the core of it all? Then it came from mind, not mud. Some random thoughts on it all.AnimatedDust_{August 13, 2021
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WJM
Let me say this: from my perspective: the idea that this is the way God set things up provides high-value meaning in your life. That is obvious. Because of that, I agree 100% with your rejection of MRT. You SHOULD reject it, IMO, and I certainly have no reason to want to try to talk you out of it, even if were possible to do so.
That is respectful - thank you. I think the same way about MRT and actually all other religions where people have belief in God. But I also believe there is "more correctness and less correctness" in theological belief systems, so I would always try to offer something if invited to do that, or in an open debate.Silver Asiatic_{August 13, 2021
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SA said:
I jumped onto your response to AD – sorry for that. Yes, you’re right. I’m only using my own perspective on it and I will leave it at that.
These are public comments on a public forum, man.. Feel free to comment and criticize. It's all good. I understand there's more to this for you than for me, in the sense that you're concerned about my future. I always keep that in mind when interacting with you, KF, AD, BA77, etc. You're good guys. I respect that.William J Murray_{August 13, 2021
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SA @303, Fair enough. I mean, I could explain all of that from the MRT perspective where we haven't lost any of that under MRT, and that the MRT version of those things is all we actually have anyway, but once again we'd hit the reasoning barrier between our perspectives. Let me say this: from my perspective: the idea that this is the way God set things up provides high-value meaning in your life. That is obvious. Because of that, I agree 100% with your rejection of MRT. You SHOULD reject it, IMO, and I certainly have no reason to want to try to talk you out of it, even if were possible to do so.William J Murray_{August 13, 2021
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WJM - not at all, and thanks for the explanation. I jumped onto your response to AD - sorry for that. Yes, you're right. I'm only using my own perspective on it and I will leave it at that. Thanks.Silver Asiatic_{August 13, 2021
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SA, I didn't want you to think I'm ignoring your comments, but since you made it clear you're not interested in understanding the reasoning of MRT from its own premises, I'm assuming that what you are doing is criticizing it from your ERT/Theological perspective. Which is totally fine, but I'm just assuming you're not really interested in going down that road again, so responses from me are really not what you're trying to elicit.William J Murray_{August 13, 2021
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WJM
Here’s a question for you. What’s the point of God creating an entirely different realm of existence
It's a great question and I think it's the only way to really evaluate MRT or dualism worldviews - by looking at the nature of God and the purposes of God. Because we can't evaluate MRT by science alone. It goes far beyond science. We have to think about God as the cause of whatever world we are thinking about. Either MRT or a physical world. So, why would God create an intermediate "external" or material world? There is a huge difference between this and "God just putting the thoughts in our head". The main thing is that "God is Creator". And He loves human beings. In the Christian view, He is our loving Father. So, we are like His children - part of His family. What God is doing, all of the time - is teaching us, showing us, guiding us to learn and understand. Thus, the intermediate world of things, material, beings - teaches a lot. It gives humans ownership over things. It makes individuals truly able to possess themselves, thus have responsibility for things. Plus, it helps people realize that their actions have consequences that are due to their own free will decisions. So, they can't just blame God for everything. Otherwise, it would be "God just put the concept in my head". Instead, we can participate in the created world. We can see the difference between real things. Finally, I tried to explain this but it was not very successful, but trying again: to rationally understand things you have to be able to compare one with another. We have to know what the word "real" means. That way, we know that "illusion" means. We have to know what "product of mind" is, versus something else which was not produced by mind. God created an intermediate world so we could make those comparisons. Thus, logic, rationality, understanding makes sense.Silver Asiatic_{August 13, 2021
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