Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Science and Miracles

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

“Disagreement is not an easy thing to reach.  Rather, we move into confusion.”  John Courtney Murray

 

My “Mirror” post has generated quite a few comments concerning “miracles” and the relevance of “miracles” to ID.  Further thoughts are in order.

First, let us define terms.  My dictionary defines “miracle” as “an event that is contrary to the established laws of nature and attributed to a supernatural cause.”

Second, ID does not posit miracles.  In this post I established the following contest: “UD hereby offers a $1,000 prize to anyone who is able to demonstrate that the design of a living thing by an intelligent agent necessarily requires a supernatural act (i.e., the suspension of the laws of nature).”  The prize has gone unclaimed.  It should be clear by now that ID is a theory about the detection of patterns that point to design.  ID is agnostic about the nature of the designer.

Conclusion:  However one comes out on the question of whether science may take account of miracles, the question is a sideshow vis-à-vis ID, because ID does not posit that a miracle is necessary to create one of the “patterns that point to design” that are described by the theory.

Third, plainly scientists may take account of miracles.  If Jesus were to appear today and divide a few loaves and fishes to feed thousands and a scientist were to observe that event, the scientist would not be bound by naturalistic explanations.  He would be perfectly entitled to conclude the event constituted a miracle. 

Would such an explanation be a scientific explanation?  Well, in one sense it does not matter whether we append “scientific” to the explanation, because whatever category we place the explanation in, it remains the fact that it is the best explanation for the data.  I would suggest, however, that it is perfectly valid to call the explanation a “scientific” explanation.  Science is the process of forming hypotheses and testing them.  Here the investigator has a null hypothesis that it is not possible to divide a few loaves and fishes such that they can feed several thousand people with several baskets of leftovers.  He compares the data with the hypothesis and finds the hypothesis falsified.  At this point the scientist can either throw up his hands or posit an alternative hypothesis:  The laws of nature have been suspended, i.e., a miracle has occurred.  He can then compare the data to his alternative hypothesis and find that it has been confirmed.

Some read my comments in the “Mirror” thread and concluded that I believe science cannot take account of miracles.  I never said this.  In fact, I said exactly the opposite when I wrote the following in response to one of Mr. Murray’s comments: “Certainly a scientist can “take account” of a miracle in the sense of saying “this is beyond the ken of known natural causes” with respect to any given event.  A scientific theory cannot, however, be predicated on the occurrence of miracles, because they are, by definition, unpredictable. That was all I was saying. It is illustrated nicely by the following:  http://www.sciencecartoonsplus.com/pages/gallery.php “

Comments
I think you are missing my point :) I am quite unable to "evaluate the laws of physics". I am not a physicist. But I am prepared to accept if laws that they propose make reliable predictions about future observations, then they are valid. And it turns out that the way we parse the world from the point of view of smallish short-lived creatures on a large planet turns out to be quite inadequate to the task of describing the astronomically large and the infinitessimally tiny, and that even time itself, the dimension along which we measure our lives, is just one of several, perhaps many, dimensions in which the universe exists. Even more weirdly, solid stuff turns out to be mostly "empty" space, and even the parts that aren't empty are only "full" statistically, not absolutely, leaving open the possibility of other parallel realities in which things are slightly, or radically different, and thus calling into question the entire basis of our human-sized, earth-bound ontologies. To my mind, therefore, to insist that scientists who raise questions about the nature of causality are simply unlearned in philosophy seems to me to be an invitation to hubris. If I was I betting woman, which I'm not, I'd put my money on the scientists.Elizabeth Liddle
October 22, 2011
October
10
Oct
22
22
2011
01:32 PM
1
01
32
PM
PDT
'I know of no evidence for “laws of thought” but considerable evidence for “laws of physics”'
Elizabeth, how do you evaluate the laws of physics? Do you take nothing for granted in evaluating those laws? To say that Jupiter can both exist and not exist at the same time, is to say that it both exerts gravitational influence on the other planets, and that it doesn't. This is nonsensical in an examination of mechanics.material.infantacy
October 22, 2011
October
10
Oct
22
22
2011
01:15 PM
1
01
15
PM
PDT
it will always be true that Jupiter cannot exist and not exist at the same time
Really? And does the same apply to Schrodinger's Cat? And what, in any case, does "at the same time" mean? Or are you philosophically opposed to the Theory of Relativity?
Quantum events are unpredictable, but, like all other effects they are not uncaused. Any scientist who makes claims to the contrary is simply untrained in the laws of thought.
Do you rule out the alternative, namely that any philosopher who insists that quantum events must be caused is untrained in the laws of quantum physics? Because I would favour the second possiblity. I know of no evidence for "laws of thought" but considerable evidence for "laws of physics" :)Elizabeth Liddle
October 22, 2011
October
10
Oct
22
22
2011
12:15 PM
12
12
15
PM
PDT
Your comment about the 20th and 21st Century indicates that you do not understand the difference between changing and unchanging realities. Both the law of non-contradiction, and its corollary, the law of causation, are timeless. The findings of science are subject to change, but the metaphysical foundations by which we interpret evidence does not change. You can study cosmology and astronomy until the cows come home, but it will always be true that Jupiter cannot exist and not exist at the same time. It will always be true that Jupiter could not have begun to exist without a cause. Quantum events are unpredictable, but, like all other effects they are not uncaused. Any scientist who makes claims to the contrary is simply untrained in the laws of thought. No amount of evidence can change the metaphysical truths that underlie science. Evidence does not inform the rules of right reason; the rules of right reason inform evidence.StephenB
October 22, 2011
October
10
Oct
22
22
2011
11:17 AM
11
11
17
AM
PDT
rhampton7, Thank you for your reply. I am aware that there are several competing ontologies of quantum mechanics, but the point is that they provide roughly the same empirical predictions regardless of their ontological backbone. That is, the ruckus is primarily over the philosophy of nature rather than the many fascinating empirical discoveries of the 20th and 21st centuries (two-slit interference, photoelectric effect, radioactive tunneling and so on). And just as there are those who call into question the notion of causality (such as the first article you cite), there are also those who seek to maintain it: see Ian J. Thompson's work 'The Philosophy of Nature and Quantum Reality' which examines quantum theory and modern science in the light of an Aristotelian framework (potentialities and so on). Thus I do not agree that those who hold the law of causality as a first principle are "behind the times" or stuck in last few centuries or something. There are clearly attempts at reconciliation. You say: "At this point in time, humanity can not prove nor disprove that radioactive decay has a specific cause, and a metaphysical appeal is not proof." At no point in time will humanity be able to prove (inductively) that radioactive decay does not have a cause. That's the point: it's impossible in principle to empirically determine if there are causeless effects. Causation must be accepted a priori, for the operation of science necessarily presupposes the existence of causal powers. That is, the existence of causal powers must be assumed if we're to provide a systematic account of the inherent dispositions of physical systems (descriptions of static properties are not sufficient). For example, if we happened to perceive some object appearing out of thin air, disappearing, and then reappearing, even under such spectacular circumstances we would still be unable to conclude that such an a thing lacked any causation (as opposed to some pre-existing thing being transported, say). As to the rest of your reply, I honestly (just skimming) am not quite sure I understand you here. I will try to take a more in-depth look later tonight, and also read the 2nd article you linked. School is keeping me busy right now (senior design project and such). HSRHouseStreetRoom
October 21, 2011
October
10
Oct
21
21
2011
12:10 PM
12
12
10
PM
PDT
Please see my reply 21.1, as it applies to your comment as well -- and welcome to the 20th (and 21st) Century!rhampton7
October 20, 2011
October
10
Oct
20
20
2011
05:53 PM
5
05
53
PM
PDT
HouseStreetRoom, At this point in time, humanity can not prove nor disprove that radioactive decay has a specific cause, and a metaphysical appeal is not proof. Because classical determinism has failed to predict quantum behavior, we must consider that weirdness is not merely a theoretical artifact, but a true description of reality. Hence it may be that A does not cause B although B may immediately follow A (that is, a match may light immediately after being struck, but not because of the individual cause-effect relationship of the match being struck). Instead, "the knowledge of the state in all respects in a particular moment determines the distribution of the state in all later times." In other words, the sum of the universe in one moment, C, is the reason for the sum of the universe in the next moment, E (that is, the lighting of the match is a direct result of the entire system - the universe - in part because quantum entanglement introduces non-locality). Thus radioactive decay may have no other direct, prior cause other than the entire state of the universe. Of course Quantum theory is much deeper with many competing views of causality (see W.M. de Muynck Quantum mechanics the way I see it for a very detailed but agnostic discussion), but as yet none can claim to definitively disprove the others.rhampton7
October 20, 2011
October
10
Oct
20
20
2011
05:49 PM
5
05
49
PM
PDT
Hello rhampton7, You commit the same mistake as Hume (in his Treatise) when he attacks causation on the basis that because a person can "conceive" of a thing beginning to exist without a cause, the principle must be suspect or doubtful in some way. However, the problem with this is that conceiving of a thing is not the same as imagining something. We can imagine rubber balls and watermelons popping into existence in some "other" universe, but this is not the same as to conceive; to rationally comprehend it. It is like "conceiving" a square-circle. It cannot be done. We can blurt the words out, but it is nonsense just the same. My guess is that you would have a great deal of trouble even beginning to coherently describe how a thing can begin to exist non-causally, regardless of what universe it takes place in.HouseStreetRoom
October 20, 2011
October
10
Oct
20
20
2011
03:54 PM
3
03
54
PM
PDT
Gil, in like fashion, you seem to have an almost preternatural capacity for tapping in on the things that matter most. I think the 80/20 rule applies here: A vital few causes generate most of the results, and personal experiences are part of those select strategies because they move minds and hearts in ways that facts and statistics cannot. That is why I hope that you will continue to share your intellectual rags to riches story.StephenB
October 20, 2011
October
10
Oct
20
20
2011
03:04 PM
3
03
04
PM
PDT
Gil, Belief (worldview) precedes examination of the evidence, as an aspect of human nature. Of this I am convinced. It's no wonder that belief is the chosen "mechanism" of spiritual transformation. Grace permits the otherwise impermeable worldview veil to be parted ever slightly, permitting that very necessary ray of light to illuminate the truth -- for those who have asked; or perhaps for whom a request was made in the throne room of God.material.infantacy
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
07:01 PM
7
07
01
PM
PDT
StephenB, You have an extraordinary talent for expressing my insights much better than I. I'm not a philosopher or theologian. I'm an engineer who pursues the discipline of figuring out how stuff works, and who devotes his daily efforts to designing stuff that works. It was my engineering background that caused me to realize that Dawninism (and, as an inevitable consequent, a materialistic interpretation of all of reality) is more junk philosophy than legitimate science. The thing that still mystifies me is the fact that so many well-educated people are unwilling (or unable, for whatever reason) to recognize that they have been deceived -- in the name of "science," which they claim to admire and pursue -- into believing stuff that makes no sense.GilDodgen
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
06:44 PM
6
06
44
PM
PDT
The evidence says you are confused.Joseph
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
06:03 AM
6
06
03
AM
PDT
No, I'm not confused, Joseph. And no, of course I don't get to say what science can and cannot detect. You'll find it any methodology textbook.Elizabeth Liddle
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
06:01 AM
6
06
01
AM
PDT
DrREC, Everyone cries ignorance but curiously no one wishes to correct it. Evolution posits a genetic variation which is either selected or otherwise spreads across a population. This is followed by another variation, and another selection. And another, and another, and another. (Or they all happen simultaneously and then conveniently drift together. It depends entirely on who you talk to. So take your pick.) I repeat, and no one has offered to challenge it, that no evolutionary changes are described in these terms. They invariably fall back to vague narratives. A series of variations. Apparently it was selected. Probably the result of drift. A tree that cannot explain selection. A series of fossils that cannot depict distinct, incremental genetic variations. No narrative has been constructed which explains an evolutionary event in detailed evolutionary terms. That some specific combination of these factors can result in some significant evolutionary change has not even been clearly hypothesized let alone tested or demonstrated. Ignorance is believing everything you read, not questioning it.ScottAndrews
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
05:58 AM
5
05
58
AM
PDT
Elizabeth, You are confused. ID is about the design, which exists in this physical/ natural world. Also YOU don't get to say what science can and cannot detect.Joseph
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
04:52 AM
4
04
52
AM
PDT
If the designer is not natural, then scientific methodology won't be able to detect the designer, because the methods simply don't cover supernatural hypotheses. The best you will have is an explanatory gap.Elizabeth Liddle
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
04:45 AM
4
04
45
AM
PDT
What if the designer is not natural? And what about the origin of the universe, ie nature? Ya see science says the universe, ie nature, had a beginning. Yet natural processes only exist in nature and therefor cannot account for its origin.Joseph
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
04:24 AM
4
04
24
AM
PDT
DrREC,
I’d really like a refutation of that point, and an answer to questions 2 and 3 before someone else rails against methodological naturalism.
Methodological naturalism presupposes that we understand nature as we understand logic or that 2+2=4, we don't understand it in that way; it is not a logical fallacy that a bird would give live birth instead of laying eggs or that a blue rose would be a logical contradiction. The entirety of our "understanding" of nature is based solely and purely on observations, not on any logical necessity in the character of nature. So, yes, nature is not, by any logical necessity, stuck or frozen into its character as mathematics and a logical deduction are stuck or frozen in their character. It could be changed or guided or directed; since we don't see the logical necessity behind it, we have no assurance that it couldn't have been otherwise, or that these observations haven't been, or couldn't have been, different in the past, present, or future. If a conscious entity could've lived in the singularity before the Big Bang, then yes, the conditions of nature as we find them now, would've been a totally foreign nature, akin to a miracle. it is a confusion to consider observations as real understandings of the character of nature. Mere observation doesn't provide an argument for any necessity, if there is one (which we do not know), behind the character of nature. The supreme irony is that the only things we really do understand, that is, see the reasonableness behind, don't physically exist, like mathematics, morality, and logic. We understand why 2+2=4, or why it's reasonable to send a pick-pocketer to prison. We cannot understand the reasonableness of why any two things are connected as physical events in the same way. The simple test is to ask yourself if it is a logical contradiction for anything in nature to have a different character than it does now; ask yourself if a tree doesn't have leaves if it is a non sequitur, or a rose not having thorns is a logical fallacy. So our "understanding" of nature is a series of observations, strictly, not a logical argument like a modus tollens. Therefore, the unwarranted assumption in methodological naturalism is that our observations are arguments, they aren't. The argument for methodological naturalism literally boils down to "well, we've seen nature behave in regular patterns so often, it must be the only way it could ever be", but this is not an argument, it is only an assumption, an unwarranted assumption, which provides for its only warrant the hunch that nature will continue to behave regularly "just because"....."just because it seems to." But that is not a valid reason.Clive Hayden
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
09:46 PM
9
09
46
PM
PDT
The law of causation, which is the basis of the first cause argument, is one of the first principles of right reason. It applies to one universe or to all universes. Like the law of non-contradiction, we don't reason our way TO it, we reason our way FROM it. We don't demonsrate it to be valid, it is the standard by which validity is demonstrated.StephenB
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
08:23 PM
8
08
23
PM
PDT
"evolutionary theory which never explains a single incident of evolution in its own terms" This is ignorance of your own making. "or OOL which boils down to, ‘something happened, and it’s possible that something like this or that' Here you have a point. OOL is perhaps the least fleshed out of all biology, as might be expected. But is a gap in human knowledge your only winning point? Sad. "Sorry, you don’t get to ask for details, ever." Pity, my career is based on asking for details at the atomic level. Life at 1.5 angstrom or better. "Science is a method, and it doesn’t work if you try to impose God or miracles on it." Agreed. Is the rest of UD listening? I'd really like a refutation of that point, and an answer to questions 2 and 3 before someone else rails against methodological naturalism.DrREC
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
07:57 PM
7
07
57
PM
PDT
StephenB, The first cause argument, unfortunately, can only be demonstrated to be valid within this universe. How causation works outside the universe is unknown; a matter of guesswork. To say that the other realm(s) must operate the same is an a priori assumption.rhampton7
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
07:29 PM
7
07
29
PM
PDT
DrREC, I'm pointing out that you are oddly selective about when you expect a hypothesis to be detailed. You don't seem to have a problem with evolutionary theory which never explains a single incident of evolution in its own terms, or OOL which boils down to, 'something happened, and it's possible that something like this or that might be related to whatever did or didn't happen.' Sorry, you don't get to ask for details, ever. These questions? 1) If ID is methodologically naturalist, why rail against methodological naturalism? M.N. does not rule out ID, but somehow it is applied that way anyway. Even though it has no real implications for ID, it does demonstrate a jaw-dropping willingness to fit reality to ideology. It's not the philosophy, it's the mindset that science is the definition of reality rather than a way to explore it. Partner that with a willingness to limit what is or isn't science arbitrarily and it's a recipe for profound self-satisfied ignorance. 2) What discovery has come from a research program that has rejected methodological naturalism? 3) Formulate a hypothesis and experiment in a framework that rejects methodological naturalism. See the above. Science is a method, and it doesn't work if you try to impose God or miracles on it. But realize that reality is under no obligation to exist within the boundaries of what science can examine. Don't mistake the limitations of science for the limitations of reality. Or do. Against such reasoning the gods themselves contend in vain. That's beside the point. Both intelligence and design are within the scope of science. Arguing otherwise has made many learned men look stupid.ScottAndrews
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
07:27 PM
7
07
27
PM
PDT
rhampton 7: "Of course, that depends on which philosophical suppositions you accept (see Cosmological Argument) – the most important of which, perhaps, is what is presumed to exist outside this universe." The only thing necessary to show that the first cause is immaterial is to show that a first cause must exist. From there it is just a matter of deducing that, if it exists, it must be unchanging, which means it must be immaterial, which means it must be personal. It is totally independent of, though consistent with, ID's scientific argument for design, which, of course says nothing about the first cause or the nature of the designer.StephenB
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
04:53 PM
4
04
53
PM
PDT
Elizabeth, "How is it logical to say that the establishment of a law is contrary to that law?" Very simple; Johnny designs a computer and builds it in his home lab. The computer does everything Johnny has programmed it to do. The computer is limited to the program (laws) that Johnny has determined for the computer. This does not mean however, that Johnny can only do the things that he has designed his computer to do. Johnny is the establishment of the laws (regularity) in his computer. Yet Johnny can be and is contrary to that regularity in his computer.CannuckianYankee
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
04:14 PM
4
04
14
PM
PDT
"When exactly did you get on this new kick where a hypothesis requires details?" Did you ever do a science fair project? Btw, what are the answers to my question? And why did you leave "intellegent" out of your scenario? "If you don’t understand why design is inferred in biology but not dark matter and after all this time you haven’t bothered to find out," Gil is arguing for cosmological ID below.DrREC
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
03:27 PM
3
03
27
PM
PDT
DrREC, Thank you for making my point for me.
Scott, those aren’t exactly functional hypotheses. Its pretty easy to draw comparisons when you leave out all the details.
This is what I mean when I talk about selective, capricious application of principles. When exactly did you get on this new kick where a hypothesis requires details? You don't seem to mind as long as it's an evolutionary transition without specific genetic variations or selective pressures, or OOL, the biggest "something happened" of science.
Hi, I’ve inferred a cause that I am unable to directly observe. It’s called dark matter. I can’t tell you one thing about it, but I’m sure it has an Intelligent origin.
If you don't understand why design is inferred in biology but not dark matter and after all this time you haven't bothered to find out, then I don't see how it's possible to discuss the subject with you. There are plenty of people who actually understand what they don't agree with.ScottAndrews
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
Agreed. Biological ID fits easily within a framework of methodological naturalism, which I have demonstrated on a number of occasions. (The $1,000 prize remains unclaimed.) Cosmological ID not so much. I don’t see that as a problem, because it seems to me that in response to the question “why is there something instead of nothing” there are two and only two possibilities: (1) a necessary being brought about the existence of a contingent universe; or (2) the universe is necessary. The first implies the existence of God, which seems to make materialists froth at the mouth. The second is logically incoherent, but materialists seem to be OK with that.Barry Arrington
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
03:18 PM
3
03
18
PM
PDT
On the other hand, philosophy, using the principles of deductive reasoning can easily establish the fact that the first cause must be immaterial and personal
Of course, that depends on which philosophical suppositions you accept (see Cosmological Argument) - the most important of which, perhaps, is what is presumed to exist outside this universe.rhampton7
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
02:49 PM
2
02
49
PM
PDT
"Design is a function of intelligence. You observe design in nature, therefore, unless proven otherwise" Talk about leading with your conclusion! Perhaps I should say "appearance of design to avoid nauseating word games. Maybe I should just argue that natural selection is the intelligence. But more to the point, how would I ever prove otherwise in a non-methodological naturalist framework? A non-falsifiable inference isn't exactly science. Anyway, we'll go in circles forever, but: 1) If ID is methodologically naturalist, why rail against methodological naturalism? 2) What discovery has come from a research program that has rejected methodological naturalism? 3) Formulate a hypothesis and experiment in a framework that rejects methodological naturalism.DrREC
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
02:34 PM
2
02
34
PM
PDT
I think I study design in nature. I do it with methodological naturalism. Design is a function of intelligence. You observe design in nature, therefore, unless proven otherwise, it most likely was caused by intelligence. Some inferences can be made about the kind of intelligence that was involved in the design (although this is outside of what ID attempts to show). If it's possible that a non-natural agent was responsible for the observed design, then science should be open to that possibility. Multiverse speculations are considered (by your "politicians, teachers, etc.") to be scientific. But if what we call "nature" originated at the Big Bang, then this is scientific research into the non-natural.Proponentist
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
02:26 PM
2
02
26
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply