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ScienceBlogs praises disses Dembski-Marks paper on Conservation of Information

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ScienceBlogs has just posted what can only be called a rant (go here) against the paper by Robert Marks and me that was the subject of a post here at UD (for the paper, “Life’s Conservation Law,” go here; for the UD post, go here).

According to ScienceBlogs, the paper fails (or as they put it, “it’s stupid”) because

(1) As a search, evolution is a multidimensional search. Most of our intuitions about search landscapes is based on two or three dimensions. But evolution as a landscape has hundreds or thousands of dimensions; our intuitions don’t work.

(2) Evolution is a dynamic landscape – that is, a landscape that changes in response to the progress of the search. Pretty much every argument that Dembski makes can be thrown out on the basis of this one fact: all of his arguments are based on static landscapes. Once the landscape can change, every single one of his arguments become invalid – none of them work in dynamic landscapes.

(3) As a search, evolution doesn’t have to work on all possible landscapes. It doesn’t even need to work on most landscapes. It works on landscapes that have a particular kind of structure. It doesn’t matter whether evolution will work in every possible landscape — just like it doesn’t matter that fraction notation doesn’t work for every possible real number. What matters is whether it works in the particular kind of landscape in which our theory says it works. And on that question, the answer is quite clear: yes, it works.

Regarding (1), the work by Robert Marks and me typically focuses on compact metric spaces, which can include infinite dimensional spaces; for the purposes of this paper, which simplifies some of our previous work, we went with finite spaces. But even these can approximate any dimensionality we like for empirical investigations. Regarding (2), we explicitly point out that our approach is general enough to model time-dependent fitness functions (see section 8 — hey, why bother reading a paper if you know it’s wrong and can simply intuit the mistakes the authors must make). What ScienceBlogs appears not to appreciate or understand is that time-dependent fitness functions can be modeled by time-independent fitness functions (“static landscapes”) provided that one represents the search space with sufficiently many dimensions (by going to a Cartesian product — we point this out explicitly in our paper). Regarding (3), our point is that precisely because evolution works with constrained landscapes, those constraints require prior information. Yes, the environment is pumping in information; so where did that information come from? ScienceBlogs resents the very question. But what’s the alternative? Simply to say, “Oh, it’s just there.” The Law of Conservation of Information, despite ScienceBlog’s caricatures, provides cogent grounds for thinking that the information had to come from somewhere, i.e., from an information source.

Comments
Joseph (#52):
Nature, operating freely is a blind search.
Again, this is from the abstract of the Dembski/Marks paper:
Searches that operate by Darwinian selection, for instance, often significantly outperform blind search.
So, nature, operating freely does not include Darwinian selection? What, then, is nature operating freely?Hoki
May 11, 2009
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Hoki, Nature, operating freely is a blind search. As in said in comment 12: That said in a non-ID scenario the word “search” does not belong as there isn’t anything to search for. Only survival counts- well that and the ability to reproduce.Joseph
May 11, 2009
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R0b wrote:
Unfortunately for Marks and Dembski, coming up with such cases is trivially easy. As they say in the paper, the ways in which alternative searches can be instantiated is “endlessly varied”, and their statement of the LCI puts no constraints on our assumptions regarding that instantiation. We can always assume that it came from a higher-order search space that contains only efficient searches.
No we can't. You measure the fraction of "efficient" functions from the total number of elements in the next largest set inducing an average performance equal to blind search. (Indirectly, we're measuring the number of elements we'd have to remove from a baseline set to get this "efficient" set.) See my reply on the other thread. AtomAtom
May 11, 2009
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Dr. Dembski, Mark Chu-Carroll has now responded to this response.David Kellogg
May 11, 2009
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"If Karl Marx is likely to produce Das Kapital, then that high probability constitutes active information, does it not? So Marx is not creating, but rather “reshuffling”, information as he writes, and the active info still needs to be accounted for. It appears that all active info needs to be regressed at least to the origin of the universe." R0b, this is a good point. Do intelligent agents create new information (active or CSI) or do they simple shuffle around existing information? I think ID argues the latter, though others (Joseph for example) have told me that intelligent agents create really new information. How strong is the COI law supposed to be?David Kellogg
May 11, 2009
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rvb8:
This LAW, of the “conservation of information”, why exactly is it a LAW?
I submit that law is a poor word choice. From the paper:
Thus, instead of LCI constituting a theorem, it characterizes situations in which we may legitimately expect to prove a conservation of information theorem.
We might be tempted to see this as a tacit admission that there are situations in which information is not conserved, but everywhere else in the paper, Marks and Dembski characterize this law as universal. They even present the challenge of finding cases in which the law doesn't hold. Unfortunately for Marks and Dembski, coming up with such cases is trivially easy. As they say in the paper, the ways in which alternative searches can be instantiated is "endlessly varied", and their statement of the LCI puts no constraints on our assumptions regarding that instantiation. We can always assume that it came from a higher-order search space that contains only efficient searches. And if anyone thinks that this space of efficient searches needs to be accounted for by an even higher-order search, consider that this logic demands an infinite regress of search spaces.R0b
May 11, 2009
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BTW, I agree that Chu-Carroll is prone to read carelessly and jump to erroneous conclusions, and I agree that he has done so here. But I disagree with this:
The Law of Conservation of Information, despite ScienceBlog’s caricatures, provides cogent grounds for thinking that the information had to come from somewhere, i.e., from an information source.
To calculate an information cost, we assume that the information had to come from somewhere, except in the case of design, which for some reason is exempt from that assumption. There are at least two problems with the claim that designers are active information sources: 1) There's no evidence that designers have an ability to find small targets without problem-specific information. Can anyone give an example of a designer pulling something from an informational void? The security of devices like combination locks and passwords depends on humans' inability to do so. 2) As I said in 44, if designers have a high probability of successfully finding targets, then design is nothing more than reshuffling existing information. By definition of active information, it can only be produced by something that is unlikely to find targets. That is, it can only come about through luck.R0b
May 11, 2009
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Dr. Dembski:
An environment with Karl Marx, paper, and pen in it will output Das Kapital. Environments, it seems, can be quite cozy and the information they contain and the sources from which they obtain it may be studied and assigned probabilities.
I'm rather surprised at this comment, given your previous position regarding design hypotheses conferring probabilities on events. If Karl Marx is likely to produce Das Kapital, then that high probability constitutes active information, does it not? So Marx is not creating, but rather "reshuffling", information as he writes, and the active info still needs to be accounted for. It appears that all active info needs to be regressed at least to the origin of the universe.R0b
May 11, 2009
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David Springer:
It is a commonly assumed tenet of science that in principle complete information about a system at one point in time is sufficient to determine its state at any other point in time. It’s the underlying principle behind materialism.
Springer is confusing materialism with determinism.
Why an intelligent materialist would argue against the conservation of information is is beyond me except perhaps as a kneejerk, indefensible reaction when someone like Dembski asks the loaded question - what is the original source of the information in the universe?
Even if we assume determinism, there are plenty of problems with the CoI claims. Springer seems to have missed the fact that Dembski and Marks are using their own custom definition of information.R0b
May 11, 2009
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David Springer sent this interesting comment to me via email, and since he's no longer on UD I thought I'd share:
Bill Dembski posted an article at Uncommon Descent discussing a science blog rant against the proposed law of conservation of information. I don't understand the resistance to this. It is a commonly assumed tenet of science that in principle complete information about a system at one point in time is sufficient to determine its state at any other point in time. It's the underlying principle behind materialism. It's the refuting principle employed against mind/brain dualism i.e. that all thoughts and behaviors can be, in principle with complete information, reduced to brain chemistry and physics. Also, in principle, all the information in the universe was present at the instant of its creation (Big Bang) some 14 billion years ago. This principle is so widely held that when Stephen Hawking proposed that information might be permanently lost when matter falls into a black it annoyed a great many physicists and resulted in a famous bet. In 1997 John Preskill bet Stephen Hawking and Kip Thorne that information isn't lost even in a black hole. In 2005 Hawking published a paper describing how quantum perturbations at the event horizon of the black hole allows information to escape and along with the paper he conceded the bet to Preskill and paid it off. Thorne refused to concede and didn't contribute his share of the payment. Why an intelligent materialist would argue against the conservation of information is is beyond me except perhaps as a kneejerk, indefensible reaction when someone like Dembski asks the loaded question - what is the original source of the information in the universe? The answer for many great thinkers, such as Albert Einstein and a good fraction of the founders of the United States of America, minimally leads to deism i.e. God created a clockwork universe where everything was predetermined at the instant of creation.
Patrick
May 11, 2009
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Dembski also wrote above:
Yes, the environment is pumping in information; so where did that information come from?
Hoki
May 11, 2009
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Perhaps some else (besides Joseph) can help shed some light on a point I brought up earlier. I wrote:
I could be wrong here, but IF I read Dembski and Marks correctly, then if active information was found to arise “via nature, operating freely”, then this would, in fact, have been caused by intelligence smuggling the information in somehow.
From Dembski's post:
Searches that operate by Darwinian selection, for instance, often significantly outperform blind search. But when they do, it is because they exploit information supplied by a fitness function—information that is unavailable to blind search. Searches that have a greater probability of success than blind search do not just magically materialize. They form by some process. According to LCI, any such search-forming process must build into the search at least as much information as the search displays in raising the probability of success.
(Joseph did write a response, but I just fail to see how it addresses my point)Hoki
May 11, 2009
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Re #34 "But it isn’t the probability of the universe that is trying to be calculated but the events of things that have occurred within it" Are you sure? The claim of the LCI can be expressed this way: Pr(C ) <= Pr(R )/Pr(R|C) where R is the result of interest e.g. a configuration of DNA that leads to a viable organism and C is a context such as natural selection. (I use "context" rather than "search" because in a real situation a search process requires a physical context in which to operate e.g natural selection is not just a method - it is chemistry operating in an environment.) Pr(C ) is the probability of the context arising in the first place. Pr(R ) is the probability of the result without a context i.e a blind search. Pr(R|C) is the probability of the result given the context. In the case where R is "viable organism" and C is "natural selection" (many on this forum would argue that Pr(R|C) is negligibly small - but that is not the issue in this paper). For this claim to make sense there has to be some meaning to the idea that Pr(R ) and Pr(C ) are somehow free of context. (This is where the principle of indifference is summoned to do sterling work). But the universe is a context. It includes the laws of nature, and everything in it - including the presence of DNA. The universe greatly limits the range of possible contexts.Mark Frank
May 11, 2009
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Hoki, See my response in comment 20Joseph
May 11, 2009
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Graham, No one has demonstrated that information can arise without agency involvement.Joseph
May 11, 2009
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"Its all sounding like angels on the head of a pin. Surely, evolution has described how information (or whatever you want to call it) can arise." Sure it has! "Its generation of junk DNA, that, with further random changes, happens to become useful." Exactly!! "Bingo, creation of information." POOF!!! "Whats so hard to understand?" I dont know!!!Upright BiPed
May 11, 2009
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TM, So, what are your objections to the epistemological presumptions of Dawkins? Nevermind, pretend I didn't ask. "I encourage people to think of scientific accounts as least-common-denominator knowledge." I hope you're not suggesting that I as one of those people should dumb myself down. For instance, its okay if I ask how a physically inert sequence of symbols was formulated by chance, isn't it? Its also okay to ask why chance and necessity are ruled the answer, when neither has a chance in hell of being right, right? "Explanation-by-committee does not yield..." I hear ya. "There are no proofs of the things most important to know." So where do you suggest we stop looking? "Technology may extend your life and enhance your physical comfort, but it cannot save you from the most fundamental miseries." I understand the warning, thanks. But that technology also created the means to know that Life flows from information, and it also shows that the script didn't write itself. I'll take that as one less misery.Upright BiPed
May 11, 2009
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Joseph:
Remove the requirement for a designer and the design inference falls.
But if Dembski and Marks' paper is correct and if nature, operating freely, was found to create information, then this would be due to intelligence smuggling the information in? I.e. nature, operating freely did not create the information after all.Hoki
May 10, 2009
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Tom English--The environment is the physical universe. And there is no physical probability of the universe. But it isn't the probability of the universe that is trying to be calculated but the events of things that have occurred within it. And these calculations certainly should be possible assuming the universe is finite.tribune7
May 10, 2009
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"We can argue about the probability, but the mechanism is clear and doesnt violate any laws." No one says it does. It is the probability that is the issue. The changes required quickly get outside any possibility in a trillion universes let alone the 3.5 billion years that life has been on the planet.jerry
May 10, 2009
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Its all sounding like angels on the head of a pin. Surely, evolution has described how information (or whatever you want to call it) can arise. Its generation of junk DNA, that, with further random changes, happens to become useful. Bingo, creation of information. Whats so hard to understand ? We can argue about the probability, but the mechanism is clear and doesnt violate any laws.Graham
May 10, 2009
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Tom English -- We who humbly contemplate the limits of scientific knowledge are not so loud and so proud. How is design detection beyond the limit of knowledge?tribune7
May 10, 2009
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Tom English: I'm not sure why you equate environments with Nature writ large. An environment with Karl Marx, paper, and pen in it will output Das Kapital. Environments, it seems, can be quite cozy and the information they contain and the sources from which they obtain it may be studied and assigned probabilities.William Dembski
May 10, 2009
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T M English writes,
I encourage people to think of scientific accounts as least-common-denominator knowledge. Explanation-by-committee does not yield more valuable beliefs than what the individual can obtain in relationship with the Creator, the Absolute, God, Brahman, Mind…. There are no proofs of the things most important to know.
Very nice - especially the last sentence.hazel
May 10, 2009
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Upright BiPed, That we are parts of the universe observing parts of the universe (including ourselves observing) is an aspect of physical reality. Speaking of hubris, that is what bugs me about the epistemological presumptions of Dembski-Dawkins. We who humbly contemplate the limits of scientific knowledge are not so loud and so proud. I encourage people to think of scientific accounts as least-common-denominator knowledge. Explanation-by-committee does not yield more valuable beliefs than what the individual can obtain in relationship with the Creator, the Absolute, God, Brahman, Mind.... There are no proofs of the things most important to know. I do not buy into Gould's "non-overlapping magisteria." Science is not a magisterium. It's fun, and it comes in handy. Technology may extend your life and enhance your physical comfort, but it cannot save you from the most fundamental miseries.T M English
May 10, 2009
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TM
Perhaps half of the universal pot of water is heated by hell, and the other half refrigerated by heaven.
...too convenient hubris.Upright BiPed
May 10, 2009
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TM, The realities of universe did not begin with our observation of it. To now suggest we may not question our assumptions (in the face substaintial contradictory evidence) makes a sad case for empiricism. Its also more than a little too convenient.Upright BiPed
May 10, 2009
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P.S.--Perhaps half of the universal pot of water is heated by hell, and the other half refrigerated by heaven. Metaphysically far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics, anyone?T M English
May 10, 2009
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Upright BiPed, Dembski and Marks have presented math and claimed that it models nature. Their argument that they have stated a law of nature hinges on their claim to have a model. It is entirely appropriate for me to challenge the model.
You suggest that finding a pot of boiling water on the stove can be explained by the information contained in the pot, stove, and water.
No, I indicate that we are water in the universal pot, incapable of observing the metaphysical stove.T M English
May 10, 2009
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Mr Joseph, As Mr DiBagno quotes, All such structures, however, merely reinforce the teleological conclusion we are drawing, which is that the success of evolutionary search depends on the front-loading or environmental contribution of active information. It would seem that the paper is open to the possibility that some active information is teleological (front loaded) and some is environmental, and it is an unsolved problem to tease them apart. As I said on the original thread, these issues can be analyzed more clearly in computatinal settings than in nature. Let us compare an evolutionary algorithm at generation 0 and at generation 100. The fitness function contains some active information - a given. In generation 0 the EA produces a series of queries, each of which has the same probability of success as a query in the null hypothesis. As the EA continues running until generation 100, it consumes other informational inputs. It consumes ticks of a clock, counting generations. It consumes a list of pseudo-random numbers, or actual random numbers (for example, from random.org). And it constructs and re-uses a history of previous queries. The EA doesn't have to know the actual fitness values of these queries, only their relative values. In generation 100, the EA creates a series of queries, each of which will have a significantly higher probability of hitting the target than any of the queries from generation 0 or the null search. That differential probability of success represents active information, but where did it come from? The fitness function remained the same. The inputs were a sequence of clock ticks, a sequence of random numbers, and a ranked set of queries. As Drs Dembski and Marks say in the original paper, the next step in the ID research program is to be forensic accountants of information, and account for all the active information that exists at generation 100 that did not exist at generation 0. No need to worry about the purity of chemicals in re-runs of a Miller-Urey experiment. Simply analyze those inputs.Nakashima
May 10, 2009
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