Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Scientific American quietly disowns Ida “missing link” fossil

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Michael Bloomberg, check your messages. In “Weak Link: Fossil Darwinius Has Its 15 Minutes: Skepticism about a fossil cast as a missing link in human ancestry” (Scientific American, July 21, 2009), Kate Wong observes,

And in an elaborate public-relations campaign, in which the release of a Web site, a book and a documentary on the History Channel were timed to coincide with the publication of the scientific paper describing her in PLoS ONE, Ida’s significance was described in no uncertain terms as the missing link between us humans and our primate kin. In news reports, team members called her “the eighth wonder of the world,” “the Holy Grail,” and “a Rosetta Stone.”

The orchestration paid off, as Ida graced the front page of countless newspapers and made appearances on the morning (and evening) news programs. Gossip outlets, such as People and Gawker, took note of her, too. And Google incorporated her image into its logo on the main search page for a day.

And then it all just melted away, with SciAm being only the latest source to say, “Hey, wait a minute. Shut off the canned wonder track for a minute, will you?”

I will certainly propose for this overall story as a down-list item for the ten top Darwin and Design stories of the year (here is 2008’s list). It’s rare indeed that popular media actually revolt against a proposition in “evolution,” even one as patently foolish as this one – but evidently it happens. And who knows? – raindrops seldom fall solo. More Wong:

Critics concur that Ida is an adapiform, but they dispute the alleged ties to anthropoids. Robert Martin of the Field Museum in Chicago charges that some of the traits used to align Ida with the anthropoids do not in fact support such a relationship. Fusion of the lower jaw, for instance, is not present in the earliest unequivocal anthropoids, suggesting that it was not an ancestral feature of this group. Moreover, the trait has arisen independently in several lineages of mammals—including some lemurs—through convergent evolution. Martin further notes that Ida also lacks a defining feature of the anthropoids: a bony wall at the back of the eye socket. “I am utterly convinced that Darwinius has nothing whatsoever to do with the origin of higher primates,” he declares.

The real story here is the desperate need for a secular materialist establishment to find icons of evolution to venerate, Bloomberg-style – and it won’t be their fault if they don’t get a bunch more bogus relics.

My instinct about what went wrong is this: Popular media consider themselves gatekeepers when it comes to creating a craze, and they resent scientists, like the Ida team, who usurp their time-honoured right. Hence their swift revenge.

Comments
Jehu, I emailed Woese and, as predicted, he responded right away. He said I was "absoutely correct" when I said:
As I understand it, your position is that all extant life evolved from three cell types that emerged from an ancestral gene pool in which rampant, anarchic HGT evolved cell complexity and function in a non-Darwinian fashion. Thus, I think that you only dispute UCD in the context of the evolution of these original cell types, not in the evolution that followed.
so there you go. I agree with you that he doesn't think there was a single last common ancestor. but no one (including him) but you thinks that this means he disputes universal common descent.Khan
July 25, 2009
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"It looks to me like the “materialist establishment” spit this one out almost instantly. Must not be such a desperate need after all." This is one of very few cases where that has (kinda sorta) happened. For the record, I accept common descent, but I am glad some people have the motivation to hunt down the truth that all too often no one else would care to publicize in order to set things straight. To me this represents not a doubt about common descent, but an overselling of the modern synthesis of evolution full of shoddy research and bogus claims without even really understanding the criticisms.Lord Timothy
July 24, 2009
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Jehu, and you can also explain how this quotation from the same paper supports your position:
Individual lineages, species as we know them, emerged from this common ancestral chaos only when cellular organization achieved a certain degree of complexity and connectedness... I have called the stage at which this new, more complex, integrated organization arises the Darwinian Threshold, the first occurrence of which corresponds to the emergence of a modern type of cellular organization and is conventionally perceived as the root of the universal tree.; 7., Extant life on Earth is descended not from one, but from three distinctly different cell types. However, the designs of the three have developed and matured, in a communal fashion, along with those of many other designs that along the way became extinct.
Khan
July 24, 2009
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Jehu, wow, you got me. you score one gotcha point. now, how about backing up your claims with anything other than one out of context sentence from a Woese paper? why don't you start by explaining exactly how you interpret that quotation? better yet, just email Woese and ask him. do you want me to?Khan
July 24, 2009
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Khan, If you are willing to go up to a thousand different ancestors, and still call it universal common descent, then what can I say? Except, that you have completely tortured the meaning of the term so as to make it meaningless.Jehu
July 24, 2009
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Jehu Glad to introduce you guys the work of Woese and Doolittle And I'm glad to introduce you to the concept of equivocation. Cheers.creeky belly
July 24, 2009
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Testing Testing Jehu
do not believe in the common descent (and yes creeky belly I mean universal common descent) nor do they believe that Darwin’s tree of life exists
And this has what exactly to do with Intelligent Design? Even if that were true so what? They have already said they don't believe in intelligent design. Explicitly. Clearly. Sometimes even in advance of what happened on this thread. They knew it would. So even if they do not believe in the common descent how does that help you? You might as well be making an argument about the color of a button on Woese's shirt for all the difference it will make to Intelligent Design Theory. Disproof of one thing does not automatically prove another. That's not how it's done. So, even if I believed what you were saying, why does it matter so much for you that they disbelieve in the common descent? They probably disbelieve alot of other things you'd have a problem with. What aid does it give you that, according to you (despite at least one recent explicit statement to the contrary), they disbelieve in the common descent?
The fact is, these men attempted to identify LUCA and construct a tree of life amongst the single cell organisms and failed. It doesn’t get much better amongst more complex life forms either.
You are your own worst enemy. If you say it's possible to look back and have a serious attempt to identify a LUCA, sufficently serious enougth for you to use it in a argument then what does it say that no signs of Intelligent Design have been detected? You would have thought that something would have been noticed? And along the way to looking back they no doubt found lots of interesting things. None of which were at odds with "evolution". I find it very odd in light of Woose himself, and I'm sure you've already read this as you "introduce" him to others so readily.
The archaea are unique organisms. While prokaryotes in the cytological sense, they are actually more closely related to eukaryotes than to the bacteria. They are of particular interest for this reason alone-they are simple organisms whose study should provide insights into the nature and evolution of the eukaryotic cell. Their study is also central to an understanding of the nature of the ancestor common to all life.
So, nope Woese sure does not believe in an ancestor common to all life. Nope. No Sir. http://mcb.illinois.edu/faculty/profile/1204 His email is on that page. Why not ask him for yourself Jehu?Mr Charrington
July 24, 2009
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Jehu, repeating your original point with nothing to back it up is not an argument. like i said, email woese and ask him if he denies universal common descent. ps I have published several peer-reviewed papers that cite Woese, so don't delude yourself about introducing me to anything.Khan
July 24, 2009
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Khan and creeky belly. Glad to introduce you guys the work of Woese and Doolittle and contrary to your posturings, while these scientists are hard core Darwinists that believe in descent with modification, they do not believe in the common descent (and yes creeky belly I mean universal common descent) nor do they believe that Darwin's tree of life exists - at least not at the level of single cell life that they do their phylogenetic research.Jehu
July 24, 2009
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Clive
Mr Charrington, Do you hold all beliefs provisionally?
If I'm worth having a conversation with then why would you want to have me on modereration? Remove the moderation and perhaps we can have that conversation.Mr Charrington
July 24, 2009
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Jehu, so now you're down to one out-of-context sentence from Woese to back up your point. If you truly believe you're right, why don't you email him and find out. I bet he will respond very quickly.Khan
July 24, 2009
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Jehu And did I write or respond to any of those posts? I don’t think so. Did I say that you never responded to those posts? I merely suggested from the context to which you were responding, universal common descent was not being discussed, rather the common descent of various animals. First, I never used the term “common descent” in any other context than the standard general meaning of universal common descent. Second, it is patently obvious that neither you nor Khan nor Mr. Charrington had any idea of the work Doolittle or Woese and therefore assumed I meant something I did not. The fact is, these men attempted to identify LUCA and construct a tree of life amongst the single cell organisms and failed. It doesn’t get much better amongst more complex life forms either. But that is a debate for a different day. Perhaps you could reference the comment you made it clear that you were referring to universal common descent, and not the common descent of clades. #17, 20, 23, 24, and 26: Arguments on the common descent of various animals. #32: You assert the most learned scientists reject common descent. #36: You claim five scientists reject common descent. #**ERASED** Doolittle clarifies his position on common descent through email. #70: You post your river card on universal common descent supporting the email to which Mr. Charrington referred. #84: You assert "common descent" is actually always referring to universal common descent, except when it's not. #91 You assert, without evidence, that common descent of complex lifeforms is as poorly supported as universal common descent. I was also, according to your statement, at fault for not understanding this in the context of #84.creeky belly
July 24, 2009
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khan, I understand what Woese and Doolittle are trying to say. I have been familiar with them for years. I introduced you and Mr. Charrington to their work. However, if the conclusions you are drawing were true there would be no reason for Woese to write "we need to go beyond the Doctrine of Common Descent." But Woese did write that because what they have discovered is not as trivial as you make it out to be.Jehu
July 23, 2009
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ps when I say
both darwin and woese agree that the number of ancestors is irrelevant
I mean irrelevant to the definition of common descent, and irrelevant is probably too strong a word because if it turned out that there were a thousand we might have to rethink things..Khan
July 23, 2009
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Jehu (92), I have already explained this. read beyond the first sentence. see those final words "..cellular organization"? that means he is talking about the initial evolution of cells. he thinks that during this period there was massive HGT that different from the evolutionary processes that followed. read the final 2 paragraphs in the paper where he talks about all organisms descending from those 3 types. this is common descent, from 3 cell types.Khan
July 23, 2009
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Jehu, the quotation you cited was the one that Darwin was referring to in the quotation I provided from the 5th edition. in the earlier editions he talked about one primordial form, but then later added that it could be several. Here's another, perhaps you're already familiar with it:
There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.
so Darwin is irrelevant to evolutionary biology? I'll make a note of that, thanks. and if you want to trade wikipedia quotations:
In modern biology, it is generally accepted that all living organisms on Earth are descended from a common ancestor or ancestral gene pool
both darwin and woese agree that the number of ancestors is irrelevant. for that matter, so do the authors of the intro biology textbook from Prentice and Hall:
Descent with modification also implies that all living organisms are related to one another. Look back in time, and you will find common ancestors shared by tigers, panthers, and cheetahs. Look farther back, and you will find ancestors that these felines share with horses, dogs, and bats. Farther back still are the common ancestors of mammals, birds, alligators, and fishes. If we look far enough back, the logic concludes, we could find the common ancestors of all living things. This is the principle known as common descent
Khan
July 23, 2009
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Khan, If Woese is so cool withe idea common descent, why did he say, "The time has come for Biology to go beyond the Doctrine of Common Descent. Neither it nor any variation of it (invoking, say, several primordial forms) can capture the tenor, the dynamic, the essence of the evolutionary process that spawned cellular organization." Hmm?Jehu
July 23, 2009
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creeky belly,
In that case, you would most certainly find that Doolittle and Woese would disagree with the sentiment being expressed in comments 17, 20, 23, 24, and 26, which dealt not with universal common descent, but descent within clades.
And did I write or respond to any of those posts? I don't think so.
I think that’s what Mr. Charrington was objecting to; namely, that the goalposts and terminology have been shifted from the common descent of say, tetrapods and hominids, to the common descent of ALL organisms.
First, I never used the term "common descent" in any other context than the standard general meaning of universal common descent. Second, it is patently obvious that neither you nor Khan nor Mr. Charrington had any idea of the work Doolittle or Woese and therefore assumed I meant something I did not. The fact is, these men attempted to identify LUCA and construct a tree of life amongst the single cell organisms and failed. It doesn't get much better amongst more complex life forms either. But that is a debate for a different day.Jehu
July 23, 2009
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Khan, Here is another quote from Darwin,
[P]robably all of the organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial form …?.
That is the quote that Woese cites from On the Origin of Species. However, since Darwin was ignorant of DNA and since he is before the modern synthesis he is really irrelevant. The fact is, at least since the modern synthesis, and probably before, common descent has been understood to mean universal common descent from a common ancestor. Many Darwinists still have polemics defending the notion. Here is one:
Common descent is the theory that all living organisms on Earth descended from a common ancestor. Biologists have evidence that all life developed from a common ancestor that lived just under 4 billion years ago, and the concept is accepted by virtually all scientists working in the field.
Jehu
July 23, 2009
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Jehu Thank you. That is what I am talking about. “Common descent” is always inferred to refer to “universal common descent” except in those contexts where the author specifies that they area only referencing a particular clade. In that case, you would most certainly find that Doolittle and Woese would disagree with the sentiment being expressed in comments 17, 20, 23, 24, and 26, which dealt not with universal common descent, but descent within clades. I think that's what Mr. Charrington was objecting to; namely, that the goalposts and terminology have been shifted from the common descent of say, tetrapods and hominids, to the common descent of ALL organisms.creeky belly
July 23, 2009
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ps Jehu, I guess now you can either remove Woese from your list of common descent-deniers or add Darwin.Khan
July 23, 2009
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Jehu, that quotation is referring to the initial evolution of cells. he is arguing that the process of evolution might have been fundamentally different during that stage of life's history, involving massive, anarchic horizontal gene flow. however, he later argues that this process left us with three "universal common ancestors." despite what you say, common descent does not rely on having a single common ancestor. Darwin himself said this in the 5th edition of OoS:
No doubt it is possible, as Mr G. H. Lewes has urged, that at the first commencement of life many different forms were evolved; but if so, we may conclude that only a very few have left modified descendants'
think about it guy.Khan
July 23, 2009
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Well the underline didn't come out in the above quote when it posted, so here it is for emphasis
The time has come for Biology to go beyond the Doctrine of Common Descent. Neither it nor any variation of it (invoking, say, several primordial forms) can capture the tenor, the dynamic, the essence of the evolutionary process that spawned cellular organization.
Think about it guys.Jehu
July 23, 2009
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Here is quote from Carl Woese in a 2002 PNAS publication regarding the topic we have been discussing. Notice the underlined bit at the end of the quoted section.
The Doctrine of Common Descent [P]robably all of the organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial form …?. This, Darwin's Doctrine of Common Descent (35), is the primary evolutionary assertion and a cornerstone of modern biology, and it epitomizes classical biological thinking. The Doctrine implies two questions, what was the nature of the primordial form and why was that form unique. Through genomics these can now be approached. However, we are about to find that the two separate questions the Doctrine seems to pose are not separate but part and parcel of one another. The difficulty with the classical Darwinian outlook, as Alfred North Whitehead (36) long ago pointed out, is that it sees evolution as a “procession of forms,” when the focus should instead be on the process that produces them—on the gem, not the reflections from its facets. The reality of HGT is forcing us to the Whitheadian point of view, making us think more about the process and less about the detailed forms it generates. From this perspective we will see that there was not one particular primordial form, but rather a process that generated many of them, because only in this way can cellular organization evolve. The Doctrine of Common Descent (and classical evolutionary thinking in general) rests on the tacit assumption that the dynamic of the evolutionary process remains unchanged as it gives rise to increasingly complex, specific, etc. cellular forms. Yet the forms in essence are the process. Therefore, fundamental changes in their nature can only mean changes in the underlying evolutionary dynamic. The time has come for Biology to go beyond the Doctrine of Common Descent. Neither it nor any variation of it (invoking, say, several primordial forms) can capture the tenor, the dynamic, the essence of the evolutionary process that spawned cellular organization.
Jehu
July 23, 2009
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creeky belly
Doolittle doesn’t believe a universal common ancestor or universal common descent (hence the word “universal”).
Thank you. That is what I am talking about. "Common descent" is always inferred to refer to "universal common descent" except in those contexts where the author specifies that they area only referencing a particular clade.Jehu
July 23, 2009
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djmullen, ------"Thirdly, comparing Jehu’s opinion of W. Ford Doolittle’s stance on common descent to Dr. Doolittle’s actual stance is hardly an attempt at obfuscation." Most of my time in these comments is correcting misunderstandings. I was referring to Mr Charrington's rabbit trail of "there being a place for Jehu if there is an objective moral standard" which is an irrelevancy to the discussion, and an obfuscation and/or mockery. Don't you folks read the comments for goodness sakes? And of course there is a standard of what is right, including civil behavior, I just happen to recognize where it is grounded. But you can't have it both ways, that there is an objective standard, and that there isn't (which was Mr Charrinton's point). Mr Charrington, Do you hold all beliefs provisionally?Clive Hayden
July 23, 2009
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O'Leary: "The real story here is the desperate need for a secular materialist establishment to find icons of evolution to venerate, Bloomberg-style ..." It looks to me like the "materialist establishment" spit this one out almost instantly. Must not be such a desperate need after all.djmullen
July 23, 2009
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Jehu
Doolittle may give lip service to the phrase “common descent” for political reasons but what he and Woese and others believe is that all life did not descend from a common ancestor.
Yet he believes in common descent all the same.
I guess you could call it uncommon descent.
That's not an accurate representation of Doolittle's opinion. he believes in common descent
Furthermore, I identified Doolittle as a Darwinist before I even cited his name, so to try to claim that I ever suggested he didn’t believe in Darwinism or that he supported ID is just stupid.
The topic at hand is if Doolitle believes in common descent or not. To remind you, you said
I doubt that most of the world’s population accepts common descent. Even the most learned Darwinists now reject it. There is no common descent.
Then I asked you to name 5 learned Darwinists who reject common descent. You named W. Ford Doolittle. Yet when he is asked (you can do it too , do you need his email address?) he explicitly says that he believes in common descent. Perhaps the distinction he is making is too subtle for you.Mr Charrington
July 23, 2009
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Jehu Uh, no and no. To begin with, the original question was not specific to eukaryotic organisms. It was to all organisms. Secondly, common descent requires a single common ancestor (hence the word “common”), which Doolittle does not believe existed. Doolittle doesn't believe a universal common ancestor or universal common descent (hence the word "universal"). He even explains where he thinks the tree starts: "Only in later, multicellular eukaryotes do we know of definite restrictions on horizontal gene exchange, such as the advent of separated (and protected) germ cells." It's this advent that, according to Doolittle, starts the traditional tree of life. With common descent. Doolittle may give lip service to the phrase “common descent” for political reasons but what he and Woese and others believe is that all life did not descend from a common ancestor. I guess you could call it uncommon descent. Universal. You could always email him, it sounds like he responds quickly. That wasn't meant to be snide, but I don't see why you can't get around the insinuations and just ask the man a couple of clarifying questions. Furthermore, I identified Doolittle as a Darwinist before I even cited his name, so to try to claim that I ever suggested he didn’t believe in Darwinism or that he supported ID is just stupid. Did I make that claim?creeky belly
July 23, 2009
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Clive @ 71: And if there is no objective morality or a Law Giver, you could be lying through your teeth with all the atheistic blessings of a clean conscience, and would have no obligation to yourself or your fellow man otherwise. Therefore, your intention and adherence to common civil discourse is questionable at best. Thirdly, if you say that your behavior is civil, you’re comparing it to a standard, otherwise, if it’s all relative, then I say that you’re not civil, and there can be no recourse to determine it or standard of reference in deciding the issue between us. Besides, you’re bringing in irrelevancies to the discussion, which I can only guess is an attempt at mockery or obfuscation. That cuts both ways. If there is no objective morality or a Law Giver, then you could be giving your fallible mistake-prone human opinion with all the theistic blessings and clean conscience of a man who erroneously thinks he's doing God's will and the lack of obligation to yourself or any other mere mortal that goes with that mistaken opinion. Secondly, there IS a standard for civil behavior: "adhering to the norms of polite social intercourse; not deficient in common courtesy: After their disagreement, their relations were civil though not cordial."(Dictionary.com) We have no more trouble determining civil behavior than any other normal human activity. Mr. Charrington's messages are entirely civil. Thirdly, comparing Jehu's opinion of W. Ford Doolittle's stance on common descent to Dr. Doolittle's actual stance is hardly an attempt at obfuscation.djmullen
July 22, 2009
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