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Silly arguments against God, by very clever writers

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I have just been watching a video compilation by Dr Jonathan T. Pararajasingham, a British neurosurgeon, entitled, 30 Renowned Writers Speaking about God, posted by Professor Jerry Coyne over at Why Evolution is True. The video features a pretty impressive array of writers – including Arthur C. Clarke, Nadine Gordimer, Isaac Asimov, Arthur Miller, Gore Vidal, Douglas Adams, Germaine Greer, Martin Amis, Philip Roth, Margaret Atwood, Salman Rushdie, Harold Pinter and (of course) the recently deceased Christopher Hitchens – who are either atheists or agnostics. These are people who craft words for a living and who know how to argue a case, so I was expecting to hear at least one really good argument for atheism. Suffice it to say that I was underwhelmed by the arguments that were presented. More on that below.

“No religion is true” does not imply that the idea of God is false

I was most amused to hear several speakers arguing that because all religions are false, the idea of God must also be false. This is a total non sequitur. What’s more, it completely ignores ardent Deists such as Thomas Jefferson and Tom Paine, who poured scorn on the tenets of organized religion, but argued for the rationality of belief in God, from the laws of Nature (see here and here). For all his hatred of Christianity, Tom Paine (who is, strange to say, a hero of the late Christopher Hitchens, Jerry Coyne and many other New Atheists) was a man passionately in love with God. Want proof? Here’s what he says about God in The Age of Reason:

The Almighty Lecturer, by displaying the principles of science in the structure of the universe, has invited man to study and to imitation. It is as if He had said to the inhabitants of this globe, that we call ours, “I have made an earth for man to dwell upon, and I have rendered the starry heavens visible, to teach him science and the arts. He can now provide for his own comfort, AND LEARN FROM MY MUNIFICENCE TO ALL, TO BE KIND TO EACH OTHER.”…

Do we want to contemplate his power? We see it in the immensity of the Creation. Do we want to contemplate his wisdom? We see it in the unchangeable order by which the incomprehensible whole is governed! Do we want to contemplate his munificence? We see it in the abundance with which he fills the earth. Do we want to contemplate his mercy? We see it in his not withholding that abundance even from the unthankful. In fine, do we want to know what God is? Search not the book called the Scripture, which any human hand might make, but the Scripture called the Creation…

I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.

Dr. O’Hanlon’s misunderstanding of religion

But the prize for the most wrong-headed assertion will have to go to Dr. Redmond O’Hanlon FRSL, a highly acclaimed British writer and scholar. Towards the end of the video [21:06-21:54], O’Hanlon (whose picture appears on the left at the top of this post, courtesy of Wikipedia and Daan Berg) is asked, “Would you say, in a way, that what the Bible was for your father, Darwin’s Origin of Species was for you?” He responds:

Yes, except that it was absolutely based on generations of quiet science, quiet people really thinking. There was no bullshit involved at all, no wishful thinking, no absurd myth-making, no ridiculous covering up of deep fear. All of the Bible, all religions, are composed of cowardice pretending to be reality – abject cowardice. We don’t like to think that we are undoubtedly going to die. That’s what all religion is based on – fear of death.

People reading this post will be more inclined to think that Darwinism owed its triumph to a combination of poor cell biology and bad philosophy. Darwin was a very fair-minded scientist, but he knew nothing about the chemical structure of DNA, RNA and proteins. To make matters worse, information theory hadn’t been invented in his day. These two limitations led him to mistakenly claim that “Everything in nature is the result of fixed laws,” which (for Darwin) seemed to refute the notion that Nature has an Intelligent Designer. Many theists, of course, would argue that laws of any sort imply an Intelligence; however, the great contribution of Intelligent Design theory is the observation that specified complexity is the hallmark trait of intelligent agency.

The real essence of religion

When I heard Dr. O’Hanlon say that all religion is based on fear of death, my instant reaction was: “You are completely wrong.” And then I suddenly recalled that a great writer had refuted Dr. O’Hanlon’s claim much more effectively than I could ever have done, more than sixty years ago. I remembered a passage that I had read in an essay by C. S. Lewis entitled, Religion Without Dogma? which was originally read to the Oxford Socratic Club on the 20th May 1946, and later published in the Phoenix Quarterly, vol. I, No. 1 (Autumn 1946) under the title ‘A Christian Reply to Professor Price’. (Professor H. H. Price had earlier written a paper entitled, ‘The Grounds of Modern Agnosticism’, which he read to the Socratic Club on the 23rd October 1944.) In his essay, C. S. Lewis skilfully demolished Price’s claim that belief in immortality belongs to the very essence of religion. Lewis’s essay is also a splendid refutation of O’Hanlon’s claim that all religion is based on fear of death

My disagreement with Professor Price begins, I am afraid, at the threshold. I do not define the essence of religion as belief in God and immortality. Judaism in its earlier stages had no belief in immortality, and for a long time no belief which was religiously relevant. The shadowy existence of the ghost in Sheol was one of which Jehovah took no account and which took no account of Jehovah. In Sheol all things are forgotten. The religion was centered on the ritual and ethical demands of Jehovah in the present life, and also, of course, on benefits expected from Him. These benefits are often merely worldly benefits (grandchildren and peace upon Israel), but a more specifically religious note is repeatedly struck. The Jew is athirst for the living God (Psalm 42:2), he delights in His Laws as in honey or treasure (Psalm 19:10), he is conscious of himself in Jehovah’s presence as unclean of lips and heart (Isaiah 6:5). The glory or splendour of God is worshipped for its own sake. In Buddhism, on the other hand, we find that a doctrine of immortality is central, while there is nothing specifically religious. Salvation from immortality, deliverance from reincarnation, is the very core of its message. The existence of the gods is not necessarily decried, but it is of no religious significance. In Stoicism again both the religious quality and the belief in immortality are variables, but they do not vary in direct ratio. Even within Christianity itself we find a striking expression, not without influence from Stoicism, of the subordinate position of immortality. When Henry More ends a poem on the spiritual life by saying that it, after all, he should turn out to be mortal he would be

…satisfide
A lonesome mortall God t’ have died.

From my own point of view, the example of Judaism and Buddhism is of immense importance. The system which is meaningless without a doctrine of immortality, regards immortality as a nightmare, not as a prize. The religion which, of all ancient religions, is most specifically religious, that is, at once most ethical and most numinous, is hardly interested in the question. Believing, as I do, that Jehovah is a real being, indeed the ens realissimum, I cannot sufficiently admire the divine tact of thus training the chosen race for centuries in religion before even hinting the shining secret of eternal life. He behaves like the rich lover in a romance who woos the maiden on his own merits, disguised as a poor man, and only when he has won her reveals that he has a throne and palace to offer. For I cannot help thinking that any religion which begins with a thirst for immortality is damned, as a religion, from the outset. Until a certain spiritual level has been reached, the promise of immortality will always operate as a bribe which vitiates the whole religion and infinitely inflames those very self-regards which religion must cut down and uproot. for the essence of religion, in my view, is the thirst for an end higher than natural ends; the finite self’s desire for, and acquiescence in, and self-rejection in favour of, an object wholly good and wholly good for it. That the self-rejection will turn out to be also a self-finding, that bread cast upon the waters will be found after many days, that to die is to live — these are sacred paradoxes of which the human race must not be told too soon.

(The quote from More is from his poem, ‘Resolution’, in The Complete Poems of Dr Henry More, ed. Alexander B. Grosart, Edinburgh, 1878, line 117, p. 176.)

At this point, I’d like to add my own perspective, which echoes what C. S. Lewis wrote. Many people criticize religion for being too other-worldly, and of causing people to be unhealthily preoccupied with eternity, at the expense of the things that really matter in this world. The charge is not wholly groundless; there are some forms of religious belief which do just that. But for me, the great thing about religion – in the truest sense of the word – is that it takes you out of yourself, by opening your eyes to the fact that the ultimate Reality is Someone Who is much greater than you can possibly imagine. It is this awareness of an all-embracing perspective belonging to Someone outside of yourself that enables you to step outside of the framework of your own ego, put your worries aside, and just live for the moment, which means living for others. In other words, you stop worrying about death if you choose to live your life from a God’s-eye perspective, let go of your ego, and cease making yourself the center of your personal universe. Thus the benefit of true religion is that it makes people whole, restores their sanity and sets them free. Religion, properly lived, is the only thing that is guaranteed to cure people’s never-ending preoccupation with themselves and their wants. True religion, then, is not personal wish-fulfilment but self-abandonment. Another name for that attitude is trust. Without that trust, the doctrine of personal immortality will avail you naught, spiritually speaking.

Christopher Hitchens’ argument against God: Love cannot be coerced

This, by the way, answers the one argument of substance that I heard on the entire video: an argument by Christopher Hitchens (the last speaker on the video), that it is impossible for us to genuinely love God if we are obligated to love him, under pain of eternal damnation in Hell. While making this argument, Hitchens is not letting go of himself. What he is saying, in effect, is: “Now, let me imagine that there is a God, and let me imagine what that would entail for me. If there is such a Personal Being, then presumably He would want to be loved by me, since I am capable of knowing Him – and He might well feel miffed at the fact that I didn’t love Him. Being omniscient, He would know if I didn’t love Him, of course. Being all-powerful, He might even get nasty and exact vengeance on me – perhaps even eternal vengeance. But if God could really do that, then I couldn’t possibly choose to love Him freely – in which case I couldn’t really love Him at all, in which case it would be wrong of Him to punish me for not loving Him. So since the concept of God implies the possibility of His doing something wrong, which means that He isn’t God (since God is supposed to be essentially benevolent), then there must be something deeply flawed about the whole concept of God.”

Logically speaking, Hitchens’ argument doesn’t work, because it assumes that God’s omniscience, omnibenevolence and omnipotence are equally fundamental attributes of God. But if God’s omnipotence is grounded in His omniscience and omnibenevolence, then God cannot will what is ultimately bad for anyone. Only we can do that – which is why C. S. Lewis insisted in The Problem of Pain that “The doors of Hell are locked on the inside.”

But on a psychological level, Hitchens’ argument is profoundly wrong, too. What is missing from it is the notion of trust. Instead of worrying about what an omnipotent God might do to Him, what Hitchens should have asked himself is: if rational argumentation leads me to believe that there is a Mind Who created the cosmos, keeps it in being, and therefore keeps me in being, what is my response to such a Being? The only sensible response to such a Being is one of trust. Any other response is self-defeating. Trust in turn means letting go, and not letting thought experiments about hypothetical consequences interfere with one’s impulse to love God. Hitchens’ hero, Thomas Paine, was able to let go and love His Maker, as we saw in the quote from him above.

Notive that I wrote: “If rational argumentation leads me to believe that there is a Mind Who created the cosmos…” in the paragraph above. “That’s a pretty big ‘if'”, I hear you say. But I would argue that the combination of recent scientific evidence indicating that not just our universe, but the entire multiverse must have had a beginning (evidence which I discussed in this post), coupled with the arguments from the fine-tuning of the cosmos (scroll down to the end of this post for a list of good posts) and the startling evidence that the first living thing was designed (see this excellent video by Professor John Walton, Fellow of the Royal Society for Chemistry), does make it rational to believe that there is indeed a Mind Who created the cosmos and the first living organism.

Miscellaneous arguments against God by Thirty Leading Writers

Here are some other highlights that I saw on the video, 30 Renowned Writers Speaking about God:

Arthur C. Clarke relating the story of Laplace’s statement to Napoleon that he had no need for the hypothesis of God (a reply which avoids the obvious questions of where the laws of Nature originally came from, why they hold at all, and what they are);

Arthur Miller asserting that God is a projection (a claim I find difficult to square with the Parable of the Last Judgement, which tells us that even “respectable” religious people who claim to be followers of Jesus will be damned in Hell for all eternity if they did not feed the hungry, care for the sick and clothe the naked, during their lives on Earth);

Gore Vidal whinging about the way in which God designed the human spine (fine; let’s see his improved model, and the genetic coding for it);

Douglas Adams misconstruing the fine-tuning argument as being like a puddle of water wondering why it exactly fits the hole in the ground that it’s in (never mind the fact that the puddle would still exist if the hole had a different shape, whereas we would cease to exist if the laws of Nature were even slightly different from what they are now);

Germaine Greer defining good as whatever results in the greater good of the greater number (which entails the truly monstrous ethical conclusion that you are morally obliged to inflict torture, rape and even burning at the stake on an innocent person, if you have good grounds for believing that doing so will result in a greater benefit for society as a whole – see here for a scenario where this could happen);

Jose Saramago arguing that the story of Abraham by itself constitutes a sufficient refutation of belief in God (surely, at most, it only refutes the notion of a capricious and egomaniacal God, but not one Who is essentially good);

Terry Pratchett telling us that he found it harder and harder to believe in people, let alone God (poor guy);

Ian McEwan claiming that religion cuts off a source of wonder at the beauty of the world (funny, that was what happened to me as an 11-year-old, when I read science books galore written by pontificating atheists, asserting that the Sun was a rather ordinary G-type star that was doomed to fizzle out in a few billion years, and that the Universe would one day end in a whimper);

Salman Rushdie asserting that when religion is in charge of the ethical question, you get Inquisitions (try telling that to a Hindu, a Buddhist or a Taoist);

Norman MacCraig telling viewers that the reaon why he was convinced that atheism is true was that he cannot believe Christian dogma (now there’s a logical argument for you!);

Matt Ridley exuberantly exclaiming that we’re going to generate more mystery, the more we discover (I do hope he’s right, but what if the laws of physics turn out to be finite and fairly easily comprehensible, and some scientist discovers a Grand Unified Theory of Everything tomorrow?);

Howard Brenton passionately advocating the separation of Church and State (no argument from me on this point, but what does that prove about God?);

Tariq Ali arguing for putting the Pope on trial (relevance to theism?);

Roddy Doyle humorously lamenting the fact that when he became an atheist, he couldn’t blame God for his misfortunes (ha!);

Diana Athill arguing that dying is no big deal, because it’s just like going to sleep and never waking up (which is not in the least reassuring if you’re still awake); and

Christopher Hitchens arguing with his characteristic passion against the doctrine of Vicarious Atonement (which I find puzzling, as there are many Christians who believe in the doctrine of the Atonement, but don’t construe it in the way described by Hitchens – see these articles by Robin Collins, for instance).

Comments
markf, Thank you for your post. Regarding your claim that we cannot describe God: I think I have answered this point in 6.1.1.1.2 below, in my exchange with Elizabeth. Let's have a look at your points about belief in God:
* I don’t consider the evidence very persuasive * I think that when people see evidence it is because they want to see evidence * There is great disparity in the way God or Gods appear to people in different cultures * There is a great deal of dispute about the messages from God among believers
The third and fourth points merely tell us that we should be wary of specific claims that God has said this or that, at some point in history - which isn't the same as saying that all such claims are false, or that the evidence for each of these claims is equal. (I would certainly argue that some religious claims have a lot more evidence going for them than others.) The second point does not invalidate belief in God, as God is supposed to be the Ultimate Good, capable of satisfying all our natural longings. It would therefore be strange if nobody had a deep-seated or "built-in" desire for God to exist. You may of course argue that having a desire, even a "built-in" one, doesn't make its object real. But for all our other natural desires (e.g. food, warmth, sex, social contact), the object does exist. A person with a strong desire for unlimited love might therefore legitimately wonder whether a Being capable of satisfying this desire exists. The desire for fairies, by contrast, is not psychologically fundamental in the way that the desire for God is. It can hardly be called "natural". The first point you raised will of course hinge on your evaluation of the arguments for the existence of God. For my own part, I think that the evidence of a cosmos which had a beginning, is exquisitely fine-tuned and at the same time mathematically elegant in its laws, and yet appears to be totally contingent at all levels, is enough to make belief in God rational - and I would also include the growing evidence that life itself requires an Intelligence to create it. I am well aware that your evaluation of these arguments is strikingly different from my own, but at the very least, the arguments should rule out strong atheism, making agnosticism a more reasonable option. One good thing about agnostics is that they have open minds.vjtorley
January 24, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, Thanks for a very thoughtful post. It seems to me that you espouse a fairly modest version of the axiarchic view, described by Derek Parfit in his essay, Why Anything? Why this?. Parfit summarizes the axiarchic view in the following three propositions: (1) It would be best if reality were a certain way. (2) Reality is that way. (3) (1) explains (2). Gratuitous evil in the cosmos renders the axiarchic view implausible, in Parfit's opinion. However, your version of the axiarchic view is more modest: (1) It would be good if reality were a certain way. (2) Reality is that way. (3) (1) explains (2). In other words, the Universe exists because its existence is good - which is quite different from saying it's optimal. What you seem to be claiming is that it's a necessary truth that the "big-U" Universe (i.e. the whole multiverse) is such that goodness can realized within it, at some place and time. The Universe therefore could not be devoid of minds (and hence, devoid of morality) at all times and places. This is an attractive view, but in my opinion, it suffers from one fatal flaw: there is no such thing as "the Universe" or "Reality" as such, unless we envisage it as a single intelligible object (or super-object, if you prefer). In order to do this, we must envisage its laws (and initial conditions) as "hanging together" somehow, in some sort of unity which we can recognize and appreciate. In other words, we have to mentally step outside any physicalistic version of "the Universe" (by which I mean the entire multiverse, if there is one) in order to even recognize its unity. The Universe is thus dependent for its very unity on the existence of a mind which can step outside it. Such a view is ontologically incomplete. The advantage of the God-hypothesis is that it predicates wisdom and goodness of one Being: God. You ask why God happens to have these properties specifically. First of all, I wouldn't describe God's wisdom and goodness as properties of God; I think that's an unhelpful way of talking. (See this essay by Jeffrey Brower on Divine simplicity, if you would like to know why.) Second, I would answer that: (i) some predicates (e.g. "is very healthy", "is two meters tall", or "has 60 billion dollars") are explicitly specific, as they express a degree, quantity or amount; (ii) other predicates (e.g. "is healthy", "is tall" or "is rich") are implicitly specific, as they can only come in degrees, quantities or amounts (e.g. we can always legitimately ask, "How healthy is he? How tall is he? And how rich is he?"); (iii) still other predicates (e.g. "is powerful") are non-specific, as they need not come in degrees or amounts (e.g. "has unlimited power" does not mean "has an infinite degree of power," as if in God, the power-meter is turned up to infinity); and (iv) of the predicates described in (iii), a small number [two, as we'll see] are explanatorily basic: that is, their existence does not rest upon a more fundamental state of affairs; (v) "has unlimited wisdom" [or knowledge, if you prefer] and "has unlimited goodness" [or love, if you prefer] are predicates in category (iv); (vi) there are no other predicates in category (iv); (vii) the predicate, "has unlimited power", belongs in category (iii), but not in category (iv). Ditto for the other predicates of God, including "is Triune" (which follows from God's unlimited knowledge and love, even if we humans, with our limited intellects, cannot grasp why); (viii) "has unlimited wisdom" and "has unlimited goodness" are necessarily co-instantiated in any Being satisfying either predicate: that is, they're two sides of the same coin. In other words: God is that Being to Whom all explanatorily basic, non-specific predicates can be ascribed. That's a non-arbitrary definition of God. Because (iv) and (vi) and (viii) are true, it follows from this that God has unlimited wisdom and goodness. You might ask why (iv) and (vi) are true, and I would answer that they are necessarily the case, but that we (being finite) are not mentally able to see why, although God is. As for (viii): I find the notion of a Being with unlimited wisdom Who lacks goodness or is evil, utterly unintelligible. I'm also claiming that God's unlimited knowledge and love are sufficient to explain the [possible] instantiation in Nature of all of the positive predicates satisfied by entities in the Universe - including predicates relating to qualia, such as "tastes sour", "smells rancid", "looks bright" and "looks beautiful". God didn't have to smell a rose before He made one. Regarding the Scholastic definition of God as Pure Being: I would say that we have no concept of being as such. God is only a Being because He thinks and loves. These, I would suggest, come first in the explanatory order of things. We can call God "Pure Being" precisely because thinking and loving are capable of explaining all other categories of being (more precisely, grounding the possibility of all other predicates being instantiated by some being or other). I hope that answers some of your questions, although I realize it leaves a lot of questions hanging in the air.vjtorley
January 24, 2012
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In addition to 5.1.1.1.12 Mark, To avoid a misunderstanding, I will just say that I presented only an example of how your original analogy can be extended to cover the case in point. One can think of more examples. I think what is important to realise as far as biosystems are concerned is that: (i) we have an example of information transfer; (ii) we have code in the strict sense of this word that uses physical entities representing other entities according to identifiable rules and these rules are already understood. (iii) the presence of rules is a very strong empirical indicator of intelligence at work simply because rules are non-physical as we have seen. Rules only borrow physical reality as it were. They are expressed in (instantiated into) physical reality but independent of it.Eugene S
January 24, 2012
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MarkF, Allow me to substantially disagree. You are talking about attributes. A symbol as is defined in information processing systems is a rather different concept. It is a physical object that represents some other object. This representation acts according to an arbitrary rule (or a set of rules) independent of the physicality of the information transfer. Your snowdrops will be a symbol in the sense we are talking about if an agent willfully creates a rule whereby the word "Snowdrop" represents "Spring" in the context of information exchange. Rules are arbitrary. They are distinguished from physical laws and, again, independent of them. I as an agent may or may not choose this particular symbolic relationship. And my decision obviously will not change physical reality in any way.Eugene S
January 24, 2012
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UB I am more than happy to take on your challenge directly.  You wrote:
  ….you must point to the physical distinction between something that just acts like a symbol, and something that actually is a symbol. If you can do that successfully, then you will have falsified the semiotic argument
A symbol has to be more than a stable relationship between one object and another.  For example, there is a stable relationship between snowdrops and Spring (at least in the UK).  But that doesn’t make snowdrops a symbol of Spring.  They only become a symbol of Spring if they are used in a human context for communication.  There is a stable relationship between certain base pairs and certain amino acids – but that doesn’t make the base pairs symbols for those amino acids.  A is only a symbol of B if A is used to communicate something B to other people (this could be someone in the same room or it could be a potential reader far in the future, it could even be the same person at a later date as in a diary). markf
January 24, 2012
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(it is) ;)Upright BiPed
January 24, 2012
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hey UB, I've been observing all these exchanges that no one seems to notice, I've witnessed everyone (except for liz) dodge this argument. A list should be compiled loljunkdnaforlife
January 24, 2012
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Hi JDNA, Matzke jumped because (even as an ideologue) he had the good sense to evacuate the territory. Others apparently lack such training.Upright BiPed
January 24, 2012
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BIPED: Champ, requiring abject stupidity from a reader is virtually always a mistake. CHAMP: Exactly.
Champ, I stand ready to defend anything I have said. Feel free to paste a quote from me, and engage.Upright BiPed
January 24, 2012
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UB: "...that a fair reader would not see this most-obvious tactic," A fair and disciplined academic would identify this tactic, commonly referred to as a red herring [wiki]: "Red herring is a figurative expression in which a clue or piece of information is or is intended to be misleading, or distracting from the actual question." A disciplined academic egg head knows never to pivot and chase the red herring, and to stay on topic. Nick flopped out a fat smelly red herring and bounced.junkdnaforlife
January 24, 2012
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Exactly.champignon
January 24, 2012
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Champ, requiring abject stupidity from a reader is virtually always a mistake. :|Upright BiPed
January 24, 2012
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And in all that verbiage, still no answer to Nick's question. Why is that simple question so frightening to you?champignon
January 24, 2012
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Champ, As was made entirely obvious by Nick Matzke's own words and actions, he injected that particular question into the conversation in order to immediately turn and run from the evidence being presented to him. He injected it in the very first sentence of his defense, and held his ground thereafter. This is an obsverable fact, (documented and time-stamped) in the very conversation you are referring to. One of the things I appreciated about you following me around to constantly repeat his question, was that you also kept posting a direct link to the exchange (just in case anyone wanted to see what really happened). While I myself appreciated this vaulable service you were providing, I really doubt Nick did, and it seems you have subsequently stopped providing the link. So I will do it for you. The exchange begins at comment #11. Nick had previously accused IDist of using arbitrtary definitions of "information", so I provided him with mine, and then asked him to take a look at the observations and "point to where they are arbitrary with regard to the material evidence." His immediate response (as in; his very first sentence in response) was to completely ignore the physical evidence being presented, and change the subject as quickly as he could. The very idea that you would become so convinced that a fair reader would not see this most-obvious tactic, is really quite surprising. Even more surprising is that you would further conclude that this exchange (between Nick and I) somehow portrays me in a negative light. Apparently, a debator who doesn't automatically chase after the planned distractions of his opposition is less skilled in your eyes than the brilliance demonstrated by wasting one's breath. Or, perhaps you view Nick's talking-point question as just so powerful that the very skies above us will open to the truth each time its uttered. Apparently you failed to understand that the physical observations (surrounding information transfer) reduce his talking point to a virtual triviality. This fact was covered in the original conversation, but perhaps you were too taken by Nick's presence to notice. This brings me to a small piece of advice. I personally don't think you are up to having a debate of the kind where evidence is material, conversations are documented, and emotions are generally supressed. I think you are far more suited for the emotional shit-slinging festivals that populate the science blogs where ideologues like Matzke hang out. Of course, I could be wrong. You are welcome to demonstrate otherwise by not just lip-synching Matzke's attempted distraction, but by actually engaging the physical evidence he was running from. Observations of the physical dynamics involved suggest (clearly and coherently) that the translation of nucleic sequences into specific polypeptides is accomplished by semiotic information transfer. You will want to claim that this (in fact) is not semiotic. In order to support that claim, you must engage the physical evidence as it is found, and you must point to the physical distinction between something that just acts like a symbol, and something that actually is a symbol. If you can do that successfully, then you will have falsified the semiotic argument. However, if you cannot do so, then the semiotic argument stands by the evidence as it is found to exist (...and the distraction offered by you and Matzke is reduced to being moot in comparison).Upright BiPed
January 24, 2012
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For even more fun, Upright, how about finally answering this question from Nick?
if a gene is duplicated, and one copy get modified such that it has a different specificity or function, has the amount of information in the genome increased?
champignon
January 23, 2012
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"What are the arguments against the existence of fairies?" Just for the fun of it, what are the arguments against a semiotic state during protein synthesis?Upright BiPed
January 23, 2012
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Barb, For example: Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27. This is obviously a failed prophecy of Jesus, but exegetes ties themselves into knots trying to explain it away.champignon
January 23, 2012
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Champignon at 4.1.1.1: “3. In the cartoons, the suffering of Hell is said to be imposed by God. The Bible says the same thing.” The suffering of Hell is not imposed by God. This is a theological difference that my particular religion has with mainstream Protestantism as well as Catholicism. I don’t believe in the concept of a hell where people are tortured for eternity. That is completely counter to God’s love. “What about those who simply don’t believe?” Those who simply don’t believe are given a choice to believe or not. If they don’t then if God chooses to bring destruction upon people as the scriptures say He one day will, then they have nobody but themselves to blame when they are destroyed. They made a choice. “At your peril, because for “difficult” verses, “how it’s been interpreted” very often means “how it’s been rationalized”.” Give an example. “Why does the omnipotent creator of the universe have such trouble getting his message across? Is he some kind of autistic savant, great at creating things but bad with people?” No, God imbued man with a brain. It certainly isn’t His fault if someone chooses to not use their brain when deciding whether or not religion and God are worthwhile subjects to study and discuss.Barb
January 23, 2012
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The cartoons suggest that the rules are “made up” by God, by some sort of arbitrary decree. This is contrary to the whole idea of natural law, which you cannot violate without stunting yourself in the process, and going against your own nature.
Who is the author of the natural law, if not God?
2. In the cartoons, the consequences attaching to the bad choices are also arbitrary. By contrast, the consequences of violating natural law are built-in.
Built-in by God.
3. In the cartoons, the suffering of Hell is said to be imposed by God.
The Bible says the same thing.
Because the damned freely choose to reject eternal life with God because they abhor the idea of serving a Being greater than themselves, their suffering is rightly said to be self-imposed.
What about those who simply don't believe?
If you want to know what a verse of Scripture means, you need to look at how it’s been interpreted in the Judeo-Christian tradition.
At your peril, because for "difficult" verses, "how it's been interpreted" very often means "how it's been rationalized".
The Genesis narrative has many layers of meaning, and it takes a very wise person (far wiser than I) to properly expound Genesis 2 and 3.
Why does the omnipotent creator of the universe have such trouble getting his message across? Is he some kind of autistic savant, great at creating things but bad with people?champignon
January 23, 2012
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UB: "The fact that recorded information requires an IC system of physical representations and transfer protocols" your argument I think would help in how to objectively identify the components within a system that (if located) would set the value S=1 in the Chi_500 metric.junkdnaforlife
January 23, 2012
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Not to distract from VJ's thread...but... Unfortunately for an educated person of his/her caliber, Dr Rec is reduced to these repeated off-hand comments because he has to actually ignore the contents on this site. The fact that recorded information requires an IC system of physical representations and transfer protocols is one of those observations to be ignored. It is not a data point anywhere in materialist biology, yet is is observably true on empirical grounds, and stands unrefuted.Upright BiPed
January 23, 2012
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DrREC, why do people like you whine about the contents of this site? It is really tiresome.Barry Arrington
January 23, 2012
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But that God would have two specific properties: wisdom and goodness. I'm just not seeing your point, here vjtorley. If you leave God without "specific essential properties" then there are neither good reasons for not believing in that God, but nor are there good reason for calling the thing in question "God". But once you assign specific essential properties (e.g. goodness and wisdom) to God, then you have set up a God in which it is not silly to disbelieve (though not necessarily silly to believe in either). Here is the one remaining sense in which I am a theist: I believe in goodness and wisdom. I'm happy to call that combo "God". I'm also happy to regard it as a property of the universe, and possibly even a "reason" for its existence, given that goodness and wisdom are perceived by beings (us) who seek reason in the universe of which we form a part. In other words, the universe (as exemplified in the part of it that is us) is capable of seeking knowledge of itself, and also goodness. That's more or less "pantheism" I guess, and it's probably as good a label for me as anything. It's not a belief, though, exactly. I don't think pantheism can be argued as true or false - it's not that I "believe" in pantheism, it's merely that I am happy to reify - or deify, if you prefer - goodness and wisdom. And to "seek God in everyone" as George Fox had it. Or the face of Jesus in every face, as catholics sometimes say. But it's not an argument for or against the existence of God.Elizabeth Liddle
January 23, 2012
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The recordings were obviously taken in a wide variety of different places, times and contexts. We really have no idea what they were supposed to be doing - except in some way talking about atheism.markf
January 23, 2012
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vj I was trying to get at something a bit more precise than what is the difference between fairies and God. You were expecting a good argument for atheism. If I am asked to offer an argument against the existence of God I find it very difficult, for much the same reason as I find it difficult to offer an argument against the existence of fairies. In fact I would say most of the things you say about fairies about God (I do suspect some people have died for their belief in fairies - certainly some people have sincerely believed in them). * I don't consider the evidence very persuasive * I think that when people see evidence it is because they want to see evidence * There is great disparity in the way God or Gods appear to people in different cultures * There is a great deal of dispute about the messages from God among believers It is much easier to point to problems with arguments for the existence of God then to present arguments for the non-existence of something. None of this is made any easier if God doesn't have any specific content! Please prove the non-existence of something which we cannot describe.markf
January 23, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, Thank you for your post. I'm glad you acknowledge that some concepts of God are not silly. The notion of a Being of infinite wisdom and goodness is, I respectfully submit, neither silly nor too vague to be worth believing in. Such a Being, if it existed, could only be called God.vjtorley
January 23, 2012
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Hi markf, Thank you for your post. I realize that writers are not trained philosophers, and I wasn't expecting ironclad, rigorous academic arguments from them. But surely it's not asking too much to expect adults to be able to distinguish the question "Is religion true?" from the question "Does God exist?" especially as free-thinking Deists such as Jefferson and Paine made a point of doing so. According to the message at the beginning of the video, the writers in question were supposed to be sharing their thoughts on the Divine, which is quite different from sharing their thoughts on Judaism, Christianity or even religion.vjtorley
January 23, 2012
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champignon, I had a look at the cartoons, which struck me as very adolescent. What's wrong with them theologically? Several things. 1. The cartoons suggest that the rules are "made up" by God, by some sort of arbitrary decree. This is contrary to the whole idea of natural law, which you cannot violate without stunting yourself in the process, and going against your own nature. 2. In the cartoons, the consequences attaching to the bad choices are also arbitrary. By contrast, the consequences of violating natural law are built-in. 3. In the cartoons, the suffering of Hell is said to be imposed by God. In the Judeo-Christian account, the chief suffering of Hell is the loss of the Beatific Vision, for which we were made in the first place. This causes suffering, because by nature, nothing but God can satisfy the longings of the human heart. "Our hearts are made for theee O God, and they will find no rest until they rest in thee." (Augustine). Because the damned freely choose to reject eternal life with God because they abhor the idea of serving a Being greater than themselves, their suffering is rightly said to be self-imposed. I'm aware that certain verses of Scripture, ripped out of context, could be cited in support of the cartoon caricature of a capricious Deity. But I don't read Scripture like that, and I think it would be childish to do so. If you want to know what a verse of Scripture means, you need to look at how it's been interpreted in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Re the Fall, we don't know what the original choice presented to Adam was. I doubt that it was a purely arbitrary one along the lines of "Don't eat this fruit." The Genesis narrative has many layers of meaning, and it takes a very wise person (far wiser than I) to properly expound Genesis 2 and 3.vjtorley
January 23, 2012
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Well, I think your sample of arguers are arguing against different gods. That doesn't make them silly (although it may make some of the gods they are arguing against silly). It's clearly possible to define God in a way that makes him/her/it silly-proof. But a god with no "specific essential properties" may seem, to some, not worth believing in, as opposed to simply accepting that existence seems to exist for some property-less reason? In other words, why call such an entity a god? (Not saying there isn't a reason, just that it isn't self-evident that there is.)Elizabeth Liddle
January 23, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, Thank you for your post. Please see my response to markf above. The same points apply. God is not just one among many deities, because He doesn't have any specific essential properties.vjtorley
January 23, 2012
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