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So Two Atheists Are Playing Cards And One Says to the Other . . .

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Watching atheists debate moral issues is fascinating.  Like a man wading a river with water up to his nose and saying “water, what water?” they are up to their noses in irony and yet appear to be completely oblivious to it.

Two atheists debating moral issues are like two card players arguing over whether a particular play is legal when one of them is judging the play by the rules of bridge and the other is judging the play by the rules of poker.

The rules of bridge and the rules of poker, like the rules of all card games, are arbitrary.  Arbitrary rules work fine so long as all the players agree to abide by them.  But what happens when I want to abide by the rules of bridge and you want to abide by the rules of poker?  Who gets to decide whether the arbitrary rules of poker or the arbitrary rules of bridge apply?  The answer, of course, is there is no standard by which we may judge whether the rules of poker are superior to the rules of bridge.  It is a matter of preference.

Sal’s post about Richard Dawkins’ views on infidelity reminded me of Phillip Johnson’s famous “the grand sez who” article.

http://www.arn.org/ftissues/ft9303/articles/pjohnson.html

Atheists’ moral “rules” are nothing but expressions of preference.  Dawkins asks “Why should you deny your loved one the pleasure of sexual encounters with others, if he or she is that way inclined?”  Given atheist premises there is no possible answer to this question other than “I prefer not to.”  Dawkins apparently prefers otherwise.  Who is to judge between the two preferences?

Notice here that the utilitarian/consequentialist “harm principle” to which many atheists instinctively resort when it comes to moral questions does absolutely no good.  Let’s assume the wife prefers monogamy and the husband wants to sleep around.  The “traditional values” atheist says the wife’s position is the moral position because infidelity harms her in obvious ways.  Dawkins says the wife should lighten up, because not only is she not harmed in any way, but also her narrow-minded anti-free love bigotry is harmful to the husband, because it denies him pleasure to which he is inclined.  On what ground can we judge between the asserted harms?  There is none.

Notice also that evolutionary storytelling is singularly unhelpful.  Dawkins says we evolved to have sexual jealousy.  Does he not also have to say that the urge to have sex with more than one partner is an evolved trait?  After all, on his premises there is no other explanation for the existence of that trait.  So when one evolved trait conflicts with anther evolved trait who gets to decide which evolved trait should prevail?  In this particular instance Dawkins has volunteered to show us the way, but why should anyone care what Dawkins’ arbitrary preferences are as opposed to the arbitrary preferences of, say, the Pope?

At the end of the day, on atheist premises good and evil are empty concepts.  There is only “I prefer.”  In other contexts Dawkins himself expresses this plainly when he writes that we live in a universe that has “no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.”  Why, then, does Dawkins believe he has any warrant to lecture us on moral issues?  After all, the obvious answer to any moral assertion he may make is “sez who?”to which he must answer “sez me.”  And the obvious answer to that is “why should I care what you say” to which the answer is . . . [crickets].

Comments
WJM@92:
This line clearly demonstrates that you are utterly out of your depth and have no idea how to even process the debate. Nobody claimed there were “objectively demonstrable truths” about morality (which I guess, for some reason, you’ve decided to start substituting the word “ethics”). The question isn’t if objective moral truths factually exist, or if they can be shown to factually exist, but rather the question is: can any sane, rational person live as if they do not exist?
Then we must be at the same depth. According to you, you don't know whether moral truths exist. But you know you have no obligation to act against evil and you know that moral subjectivism is wrong. I think we've concluded the discussion: you've completely evacuated your position of all substance and import. StephenB@94:
First, you tell me that torturing babies for fun is wrong because it harms the self interest of the perpetrator, which means all perpetrators.
"The" perpetrator is not equal to "all" perpetrators. This is bias clouding your reading comprehension. The perpetrator refer to the one specific perpetrator. What's more, the self-interest argument can be made to anyone--any specific one person. It's an argument, not an appeal to objective moral truths. It's a line of reasoning based on asking a person to consider long-term risks and rewards. For some unknown reason, you seem to think such arguments are off-limits or off-limits to someone professing to be a relativist. Now you say that you can’t speak for all perpetrators. Please make up your mind.I've always said this and never backed off from it. Just because I don't speak for you doesn't mean I can't present you with an argument. You say:
It depends on the purpose.
Congratulations. You are a moral relativist. You think it's OK to torture babies for fun--if the purpose is something you agree with.
The relativist has no rational arguments.
Since you are a relativist, I am starting to see in my exchanges with you that you may be onto something. If you have any hope of recovering face in this debate, you better come back with something really good and interesting. Otherwise, I think you've had enough and I've become bored.LarTanner
August 26, 2012
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--Lar: "Responding to your first paragraph: I don’t speak for others and have never claimed to do so, in this thread or anywhere else." You continue to contradict yourself. First, you tell me that torturing babies for fun is wrong because it harms the self interest of the perpetrator, which means all perpetrators. Now you say that you can't speak for all perpetrators. Please make up your mind. --"If we do this, I can now ask you whether it’s wrong to cut off the foreskin of an 8-day-old male’s penis. One can conceivably see this act as a kind of torture. Therefore, it is morally wrong (because “torture,” by definition, is wrong)." It depends on the purpose. If the act is done solely for the purpose of inflicting pain and for the perverse pleasure of the one who is doing it, then it is obviously wrong in all circumstances. It if is done for some other reason, then the legitimacy of that reason must be established. What a person does is important, but why he does it is even more important. A surgeon can inflict pain for moral reasons; a sadist, acting as a sadist, cannot. ..."a relativist has a battery of arguments to make on why this or that act is morally good or bad. The relativist has no rational arguments. --"A relativist cannot say “this is wrong/right at all times and places,” but can say “this kind of act has historically not worked out well.” The relativist cannot possibly know how well things worked out since his actions influence others in secret ways and have repercussions that last far beyond his lifetime. Indeed, the relativist cannot even explain why things should work out well. Moral relativism is a totally bankrupt position.StephenB
August 26, 2012
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LT, it doesn't matter if objective moral truths factually exist any more than it matters if free will factually exists or if a world exterior to your mind factually exists: you cannot live and act otherwise. The moral outrage dripping from your posts about my not intervening against evil as if it were my moral duty to do so belies your claim of moral relativism. Or, you are just flinging textual feces at me trying to get me to "feel bad" about my moral position, then what you offer is just rhetoric and appeals to emotion - showing that you have no factual or objective basis for your argument. IOW, you're engaging in sophistry. You are the one attempting to have it both ways; you want to hold onto your own moral relativism, but argue against the moral position of others. If you believe in moral truths, then you are arguing against what you see as an erroneous moral view in me or StephenB; or, if you are a relativist, then you must hold that StephenB and I can hold our own relativistic moral beliefs as we wish, and you have no reason to argue against it - unless you're just trying to manipulate us to think more like you for your own personal purposes. The hypocritical, self-destroying structure of your argument here is the same kind of self-impalement made by everyone that denies necessary first principles and self-evident truths about logic and free will. These is not a new observation about the fallacy and emptiness of the position you advocate - it's as old as philosophy.William J Murray
August 26, 2012
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LT: "Fantastic. That’s a great system. It must be nice not to feel like a good person while not having to do anything at all to oppose evil. This way, one can stay away from the real world at precisely the moment when it needs the intervention of a person with ethics." Perhaps you meant: "It must be nice to feel like a good person ...?" Otherwise, your statement doesn't seem to carry any sarcastic bite, as it seems to have been intended for. I never claimed to be a good person, nor do I feel like a good person. My concept of morality and how I behave in accordance is governed strictly by logic, not "feelings". LT: "Pure assertion and dramatic gesturing. You’ve repeated this line a few times now, perhaps satisfied that it sounds nice and kind of scholarly." I don't think I need to rehash over 2,000 years of philosophy that demonstrates one cannot get an ought from an is and the ultimately philosophical ramifications of moral relativism -- although, I'm sure you think yourself far too clever for all of that. LT: "Perhaps this is the time for you to regale me with all of the objectively demonstrable truths about ethics." This line clearly demonstrates that you are utterly out of your depth and have no idea how to even process the debate. Nobody claimed there were "objectively demonstrable truths" about morality (which I guess, for some reason, you've decided to start substituting the word "ethics"). The question isn't if objective moral truths factually exist, or if they can be shown to factually exist, but rather the question is: can any sane, rational person live as if they do not exist? Can any moral system no founded upon the assumption that they exist not consume itself down to "because I say so" and "might makes right"? Can any moral system devoid of the assumption of self-existent "oughts" be anything other than a mask for personal desire and self-interest? The answer to all of that is "no". But to understand that, you'd have to know something about first principles, self-evident truths and necessary assumptions. For instance, can you objectively demonstrate to me that the fundamental principles of logic are true? No, you cannot (not without using logic as part of the argument). In order to debate, we must ASSUME logic is a set of valid principles. Second, can you objectively demonstrate that anything exists outside of your personal experience (plato's cave)? No, you cannot. But, again, you must act and live and argue as if that is true. Now, you could make some smug intellectual solipsist argument that everything really is "in your mind", but what's the point? Who are you making that argument to? Why? It's self-defeating sophistry. So you see, the argument is not about "proving" that moral truths exist; the argument is about revealing that, like the concept of free will, a world exterior to our own mind and the validity of the principles of logic, we must either accept that moral truths exist, or we regulate our arguments about it to madness and sophistry. You might as well argue that you have no free will, that all of outside reality doesn't really exist, and that the principles of logic are not valid. I cannot prove to anyone that any particular moral statement is true, any more than I can prove to anyone that "A=A" is true, or that I exist as something more than their personal delusion. But what I can reveal, at least for those not mad or wicked, is that denying that moral truths must exist destroys any meaningful argument you can make about it. It's really very simple; if there is no objective foundation to judge "what is moral" by, then there is no rational debate to be had about it. There's only monkeys flinging feces at each other hoping to make the other monkey cow to their desires.William J Murray
August 26, 2012
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WJM@89:
generally speaking, I’m not required to act against evil,
Fantastic. That's a great system. It must be nice not to feel like a good person while not having to do anything at all to oppose evil. This way, one can stay away from the real world at precisely the moment when it needs the intervention of a person with ethics. What a sane and rational practice!
My problem with moral relativism is that it isn’t rationally supportable, nor can it actually be functionally practiced by any sane, rational person, which I am pointing out.
Pure assertion and dramatic gesturing. You've repeated this line a few times now, perhaps satisfied that it sounds nice and kind of scholarly. Perhaps this is the time for you to regale me with all of the objectively demonstrable truths about ethics. Go ahead, list them. There must be dozens of such objectively demonstrable truths. Let's see them and talk about their grounding in empirical, verifiable fact. But for now, I think it's pretty well concluded that the morality you are championing is actually bankrupt. I appreciate your admitting the heart of it to onlookers. StephenB@90
To be a consistent moral relativist, you would have had to say that torturing babies might be wrong for one person but not necessarily for another, or that it might be wrong in some circumstances but not others. Or, you could have said that it seems unappealing to you, but you cannot speak for others. In this particular instance, though, you stated that torturing babies was wrong–period, meaning that it is wrong for all people, at all times, and in all circumstances. That is the same thing as saying that it is objectively, universally, and absolutely wrong.
Responding to your first paragraph: I don't speak for others and have never claimed to do so, in this thread or anywhere else. Your second paragraph is problematic for two reasons. As I pointed out earlier, the very term "torture" (what is it with you guys and torture, anyway?) carries a negative moral connotation by definition. The concept of torture is inherently bad because badness is part of the definition. You cannot ask someone to evaluate something that's already evaluated. So what you need to do is put the action-in-question into more morally neutral terms. If we do this, I can now ask you whether it's wrong to cut off the foreskin of an 8-day-old male's penis. One can conceivably see this act as a kind of torture. Therefore, it is morally wrong (because "torture," by definition, is wrong). I assume, then, that you oppose ritual circumcision as practiced by Jews for millenia The other part of your mistake in understanding my argument is that a relativist has a battery of arguments to make on why this or that act is morally good or bad. A relativist cannot say "this is wrong/right at all times and places," but can say "this kind of act has historically not worked out well." Or "this act will have serious financial ramifications later on." These are not objecitvist arguments but arguments based on observation, evidence, forethought, and emotion. But I guess if you agree with WJM, you may feel it's enough only to be able to classify acts as good or bad. If you agree with him, actual ethical living in a world with other ethical beings is not part of the equation. Talk about having it both ways!LarTanner
August 26, 2012
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--Lar: “I do deny that objective morality exists, but I do not argue that “’torturing babies violates the standards of objective morality.’ Where is the contradiction?" To be a consistent moral relativist, you would have had to say that torturing babies might be wrong for one person but not necessarily for another, or that it might be wrong in some circumstances but not others. Or, you could have said that it seems unappealing to you, but you cannot speak for others. In this particular instance, though, you stated that torturing babies was wrong--period, meaning that it is wrong for all people, at all times, and in all circumstances. That is the same thing as saying that it is objectively, universally, and absolutely wrong. Thus, you deny objective morality in the abstract, but when confronted with the question of torturing babies, you reverse yourself and argue, unwittingly, on behalf of objective morality in order to appear more reasonable. Then, when the example passes, you revert back to your original position in an attempt to have it both ways.StephenB
August 25, 2012
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LT: "So your moral objectivism allows you to sit back comfortably and condemn others without requiring you to act against evil?" I have no power to condemn others. Pointing out evil, and arguing against it rationally, is not "condemning" anyone. And no, generally speaking, I'm not required to act against evil, and more than I'm required to act to prevent people from doing all sorts of stupid and self-destructive things. It might be laudable, but it's not obligatory in most cases. LT: "And your problem with relativism is that, according to you, it doesn’t allow condemnation yet makes any intervention against evil an “imposition.”" Now you're just throwing out straw men and red herrings that have nothing to do with anything I've said. My problem with moral relativism is that it isn't rationally supportable, nor can it actually be functionally practiced by any sane, rational person, which I am pointing out. All you and other supposed moral relativists do is blow smoke, equivocate and offer up irreconcilable statements to prop up what you apparently think is a clever intellectual position. When it comes right down to it, you act as if some things are objectively right and wrong, even if you won't admit it. When you cannot even act as if what you say is true, you really should reconsider your beliefs.William J Murray
August 25, 2012
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Correction: "I do deny that objective morality exists, but I do not argue that “'torturing babies violates the standards of objective morality.'” Question remains. Where, StephenB, is the contradiction?LarTanner
August 25, 2012
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StephenB:
You may, if you like, contradict yourself by denying that objective morality exists and then arguing that torturing babies violates the standards of objective morality.
I do deny that objective morality but I do not argue that "torturing babies violates the standards of objective morality." So where is the contradiction? Please be precise. WJM was just devastated in comment 85 and this thread has come to Godwin's Law twice. Perhaps you can fare better.LarTanner
August 25, 2012
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--Lar: "I don’t understand your response. Are you saying that denying objective moral values means I can’t express any moral values whatsoever." No. I just thought that you might want to know that holding two contrary positions at the same time is not an intellectually respectable position. It has nothing to do with your right to express yourself, which I affirm without qualification. --"If I think you seem hostile in your last few posts, am I allowed to express that opinion?" Why would you think that? I wish only the best for you. My purpose for asking all those questions (which you studiously and consistently ignored) was to stimulate your thinking so that you could grasp the subject matter more fully.StephenB
August 24, 2012
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WJM@83, So your moral objectivism allows you to sit back comfortably and condemn others without requiring you to act against evil? And your problem with relativism is that, according to you, it doesn't allow condemnation yet makes any intervention against evil an "imposition." OK, then. I guess the objectivists have a pretty sweet deal.LarTanner
August 24, 2012
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Immorality is essential[ly] free will self-destruction.William J Murray
August 24, 2012
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LT: "Why not?" Because imposition by force of one's views upon others is as wrong as slavery. Two wrongs do not make anything right. LT: "Is slavery good or bad?" It is morally wrong. LT: "If it’s bad, why don’t you have an obligation to oppose it?" Immorality is essential free will self-destruction. I have an obligation, to the best of my ability, to respect the free will of others. That means letting them make immoral choices if they choose to do so, up to the point where someone else is being harmed against their will; then I may be compelled to act, not to keep the first person from behaving immorally, but rather to keep the second person from being harmed by the first. If the first person is behaving immorally with the consent of the second person, and nobody is being harmed against their will, and attempting to force my moral views on them would be as immoral as whatever they're doing. I must try to respect everyone's free will as much as possible, including their free will to do immoral things.William J Murray
August 24, 2012
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WJM@80:
You are assuming we have agreed on the value of the units of good or evil that the scale employs.
No, we do not need to agree at all. Now, I asked you some questions at the end of comment #70. Please answer them, as it may help clarify some of the issues with your argument.LarTanner
August 24, 2012
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LT: "I don’t understand your response. Are you saying that denying objective moral values means I can’t express any moral values whatsoever." No, it just means you have no basis other than personal preference that an act is good or evil.William J Murray
August 24, 2012
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LT: "I tried again and again to show that this is untrue, that in fact there do not need to be moral truths (i.e., independent and absolute) for us to be able to evaluate individual actions as being on the good side of the scale or on the bad side." You are assuming we have agreed on the value of the units of good or evil that the scale employs. You are again begging the question, but at this point it is obvious that fundamental principles (and the need for them to base rational argument upon) are a blind spot to you. You refer to the scale of good and evil as if we have agreed to it's principle of measurement; you refer to third party judges as if we have have agreed to the rulebook they judge from; you write about what is good for society or relationships as if we have agreed upon a fundamental vision of societal or relationship goals and purpose. You assume others share your basic sense of "oughts", but provide no basis for those shared goods to be anything other than coincidence or shared cultural views, which could validate any historical atrocity. And so, yes, ultimately you've provided no basis for moral evaluation other than "because I say so" - because you say relationships should be X, because you say society should be X, because you say that people should pursue purpose X. Or, you have appealed to popularity - because most people might agree with your populist or emotional rhetoric and pejorative appeals. But, you have provided no FACT of morality; you've provided no basic unit from which rational debate can ensue. My basic fact, basic unit from wich rational debate can ensue is: it is always morally wrong to torture children for personal pleasure - no matter if everyone at that time and place disagree, it is still wrong. That is the first unit on my morality scale. If we cannot agree to that basic unit, and cannot build an broader argument from it, then no further debate is possible. If you, the scales you describe, the judges you would draw into our argument do not agree to that fundamental premise, then they might be judging the popularity of an act, or they might be weighing the general social, emotional reaction to an act, but they are not evaluating the morality of the act. I have a basis for expecting that we can find common moral ground; I have a basis for that common moral ground to be something other than whatever is popular or happens to be acceptable at the time in that culture; I have a basis for challenging what any culture or authority claims to be moral; I have a basis that justifies pursuit of good beyond selfish proliferation of my personal views, I have a basis for a moral principle that is not rooted in selfish "because I say so", acquiescence or appeal to popularity, or simply naked "might makes right". You have no basis for any of that; the basis of your morality is coincidental agreement and popularity, which again, can justify any atrocity in history. Without our agreement on a moral truth as the unit or rule of measurement, there is no means by which to measure by scale or make a ruling - there is only appeal to emotion, popularity, or coincidence.William J Murray
August 24, 2012
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StephenB@77, I don't understand your response. Are you saying that denying objective moral values means I can't express any moral values whatsoever. If I think you seem hostile in your last few posts, am I allowed to express that opinion?LarTanner
August 24, 2012
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--lastyearon: "This debate isn’t really about morality, it’s about reality." No, it is about atheists' inability to provide a rational account of their world view in the context of morality.StephenB
August 24, 2012
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-Lar-“Is a person who denies that there are objective moral values (objective here defined as independent and absolute; different from universal) categorically disallowed from expressing any moral values to anyone? Yes or no.” Oh sure. You may, if you like, contradict yourself by denying that objective morality exists and then arguing that torturing babies violates the standards of objective morality. In a free society, there are no laws against being illogical. When I say that “you can’t have it both ways,” I just mean that you cannot hold both positions and remain reasonable. That is not the same thing as saying that you may not express yourself.StephenB
August 24, 2012
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LarTanner, This debate isn't really about morality, it's about reality. You happen to think that the world is real and God is not. Your opponents think God is real and the world is not. To them, no concept, no idea, nothing, has any real meaning absent God. Not morality. Not rationality. Not knowledge. Not free will. Not even existence. For you to try to explain morality as a human endeavor (i.e. without reference to a God) is a waste of time. The response will always be the same: Your version of morality is not real because it's not "intrinsic", "objective", "universal", "transcendent", "God given". Nothing is real unless it is God given.lastyearon
August 24, 2012
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StephenB@74, Please let's clear up one matter first. Is a person who denies that there are objective moral values (objective here defined as independent and absolute; different from universal) categorically disallowed from expressing any moral values to anyone? Yes or no. Is such a person not allowed to make public declarations of the values s/he holds? Yes or no.LarTanner
August 24, 2012
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--Lar: "So if I deny objective moral values I disallow myself to express the values that I do personally hold? I am disallowed from making public arguments. You are presenting contradictory arguments: [a] On the one hand, you say, as a relativist, that there is no such thing as an absolutely, objectively, universally right or wrong act. [b] On the other hand, you acknowledge, kicking and screaming, that torturing babies is always wrong on the grounds that, without exception, it damages the self interest of the perpetrator. You can't have it both ways.StephenB
August 24, 2012
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JJ, fascinating work. Thank you.Barry Arrington
August 24, 2012
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Barry, Actually referencing Mein Kampf, you can get a better example of Hitler's own moral adjustments as he reports them and avoid the somewhat caricature-ish version here. In Book 1, Chapter 2, he says that his father didn't raise him to be no anti-semite, and for years as an adult he thought that anti-semitism was silly. Until, he saw a scientific groundingand not an ethnic one. To the young Hitler, Germany arising from the its lowly state is the ultimate good. He resents Austria as the seat of power over Bavarian and Prussian Germany. And through his formative years he reasons that absent any reality to abstract causes he's simply being a good example of German stock to vie for Germany's ascendence. The Volkisch movement, as he tells it, is simply the idea that the quintessential part of you is that stream of traits that you inherit. And there is no better way to prove their fitness than to become the pinacle race of humanity. To some extent, he only begins to resent the Jews by their peculiarity. He can respect French people who from within French borders vie for the ascendency of France, the Spanish who, from withing Spanish borders, vie for the supremacy of Spain or Britons who promote England as the pinnacle. To put it in your terms, they are all playing bridge. He cannot respect the Jews distributed throughout Europe, with their more-sophisticated-than-thou attitudes in the press, telling the Germans how the French art is to be preferred to their own. He also sees the artificial universalism of Marx to be fostered by Jews and he begins to equate universalism (with Jewish pre-eminance ruled by the Messiah) of Judaism with the universalism of socialists. And he sees both the universalism of the Jewish Marxists and the isolationism of the diaspora Jews as a subversive plot to sap the momentum of German vigor, while subverting the open contest of nations for supremacy to their subtle sapping ways of the ones who still refer to themselves as the "Chosen People". Eventually, he began to hate Pauline Christianity where Christians were "grafted onto the tree of Judaism" and saw it as some of the same cultural cooption. So 1. imagine a category of very good morality: one champions one's own stock as can be the only force of a sense of mission, specifically the Rise of Germany. 2. Imagine a set of very morally bad acts: cheating, subterfuge. 3. Observe a human action: Jews call themselves "God's chosen" 4. Assess: well it's kind of like his patriotism and his own conviction that Germans are the best race. But it's kind of different in that they live among us acting like--and expecting to be treated as one of our society. 5. Refine categories: well they really aren't playing fair like the other stocks of people and they are spreading dissent about the primary connection one has to community one's stock and cultural character. 6 Consult with others: Yup, others feel like I do. 7. Ridding all above-board players of these unnatural cheats that live among us is good. Assess: 1) Relying on natural explanations is reasonable and good. Volkism is good, because it explains what drives us in terms of our inheritance and variation. 2) Flummery is bad and diverting organic cultures by your flummary is in the nature of parasite and host. 3) Jews believe in a God that will thwart the trend of nature, gather them all back into a land, send a Messiah down from the sky to rule over all other lands from Jerusalem. It's just a different, curious belief. 4) It not only violates #2, it switches 1 and 2. Jews believe in supremacy of a kind, just not in a standup fight. Thus they both obey and subvert the natural order. 5) Jews are unnatural and spread disrespect for the unnatural and miraculous. They're character and mode is probably fixed, like our own. 6) Yup, people believe this. 7) Holocaust is not only good for Germany, but a service for all players of the game of ascendency. These are solid concepts from 1) the Volkisch movement, 2) Positive Christianity, and relies heavily on Mein Kampf, Book 1, Chapter 2 and Book 2, Chapter 6 for an insight into his nihilism. I could probably give you citations for most of the stuff that may seem novel--except Hitler never publicly opposed Christianity.jjcassidy
August 24, 2012
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StephenB@66
Who are you to impose your values on the baby torturer? You say that his behavior will damage his self interest, but he will likely disagree with you. Give this person the same courtesy that you desire for yourself. Allow him the right to craft his own moral code just as you demand the right to craft your own moral code.
So if I deny objective moral values I disallow myself to express the values that I do personally hold? I am disallowed from making public arguments? It's "discourteous" to share my views with others?LarTanner
August 24, 2012
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WJM@56
In order for this to be analogous to our debate about morality, you’d have to admit that some actions are “more good” than others, and can be shown to be “more good” by some objective standard (which would make it amenable to rational argument). However, you’ve already said that no such intrinsically valid standard exists. So all you’re doing here is blowing more obfuscatory smoke to cover your subjectivism.
I do admit that some actions are "more good" than others. They can be shown to be "more good" by measuring whether they strengthen social ties or weaken them. Is this an intrinsically valid standard? No. Is it a valid standard? Yes. Am I equivocating on the term "good," as Barry says in comment 68? Yes, although I think his analysis is flawed. I tend to think of that which is morally good as being precisely that which strengthens social relationships and personal/communal welfare. Barry talks about the good as being that which "conforms to a [a? a? which one? whose? sez who?] moral standard." This definition seems a bit vague. WJM, you then say:
If moral truths do not exist, then there’s no way to make the claim that some things are “more good” than others, showing the lie in your food comparison.
I tried again and again to show that this is untrue, that in fact there do not need to be moral truths (i.e., independent and absolute) for us to be able to evaluate individual actions as being on the good side of the scale or on the bad side. To me, it's a simple (though not simplistic) matter of people inventing a tool to categorize actions and people. That's it, morality is a man-made tool. But I've failed to convince you and I accept the failure. You then say:
Like I said – you’re not a moral relativist or a moral subjectivist, because if you were it wouldn’t matter to you if somewhere in the world slavery existed, or if your neighbor was beating his child senseless every night.
This is patently ridiculous and mean. To be a moral relativist is not to say "anything goes." It's really just an acknowledgement that context plays a big part in determining where particular actions and views fall on the good-evil scale. It's not an abdication of personal value and it does not prevent one from arguing moral issues. Again, I'm not sure what the sticking point is for you. Clearly, each one of us has a slightly different set of personal morals and values that characterize our identities. In language, we talk of idiolects, the unique ways that individuals speak and use language. You and I may both speak English, but we will have utterly distinct and unique ways of using the language. We are, all of us, linguistic relativists, and there is no objective English that anyone speaks or writes. I think it's much the same with morality. But I get your point of view. For whatever reason, you need to feel that everyone is a moral objectivist, but some people just deny it. In this case, it's me denying it and posturing as a relativist. You say
I never said any action should be imposed on anyone for any reason.
Why not? If slavery is objectively wrong, do you not have an obligation to oppose it? Do not you and all moral objectivists have this obligation? Look at what you said before
I practice morality under the assumption that it reflects an actual, real, objectively existent commodity. That means some things are good, and some are bad, independent of any individual opinion about it. That means I have an obligation to do good as best I can, and an obligation to avoid evil as best I can.
Is slavery good or bad? If it's bad, why don't you have an obligation to oppose it? If slavery is bad, don't we all have the obligation to go into those places where it is practiced and impose the objective morality on them? Please do explain to me, WJM, why the people who are doing the enslaving should not be made to stop, and why you personally should not act to stop them.LarTanner
August 24, 2012
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The paragraphs ask us to think about sexual jealousy and the bases for it.... The writer invites us to 'wonder aloud' about sexual jealously and our acceptance of it.
The paragraph is also a blunder. To advance its "point" about how people can love more than one person, it presents the old societal bromide of a mother's love--but perhaps uncomfortable with platitudes, it mentions that it is at least a social expectation. Thus, we contrast predilection with socially reinforced standards of behavior against possibly negative predilections to argue that social standards against other predilections make no sense. At the same time, a similar argument is that we should not enforce motherly behavior on any one. So, that strain of argument by itself is both skeptical of the trait that it leverages so it can equate "love" to a sexual conquest or fling. Hey, the mother can love more than her kids can't she? I mean it's simply a bias that she has to remain partial to her kids, so if she sees more kids that attract her interest, surely we shouldn't feel too badly if she pursues those other kids with part of her time. She can even stand behind the idea that it's not like she loves them any less in any provable, quantifiable fashion, even if for the time being she seems more infatuated with them--hey, it will all even out. And how's it any of our business anyway?! --- Also, in asking about the "basis" for jealousy, what is the basis for empathy? Simply its wide distribution. Thus we owe some of the benefits of morality to a simple brute fact. Another simple, brute fact seems to be that empathy isn't uniformly distributed. So isn't asking a person with a lesser empathic capacity to emulate the more empathic, kind of like asking short people to be taller, or at least act like they were? And again, the example presents a societal cultivation of native empathy counteracting individual variances owing to wont, to explain why we should curb social expectations about individual impulses. It's a mess.jjcassidy
August 24, 2012
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LarTanner, your argument is based on an equivocation regarding the word “good” and its derivatives/opposites (e.g., “better” “worse”). You say that eating a healthier diet is obviously “good” in the sense that it has an objective and measurable positive impact on the function of one’s body. In your example the meaning of the word “good” is “improves the function of a physical system (i.e., a human body). This is not any different than saying that oil is “good” for my car, because it will make it last longer and run better. Notice, however, that the sense of your word “good” here is devoid of any moral content. In other words saying oil is “good” in this sense says nothing about the moral status of oil. You then say that in the same way a “good” diet improves the function of one’s body, a “good” act (volunteering) improves the function of community by fostering goodwill and stable relationships. Undoubtedly you are correct that volunteering is “good” in this sense. Underlying your argument, however, is an unspoken assumption – that everyone will agree that it is “good” ( in the sense of a morally right act) to improve the function of a community. In other words, you have assumed the very thing you started out to demonstrate. Why is it good to improve the function of a community? It is not helpful to use the word “good” in the sense that you have used it to answer this question as we can easily see by substituting the definition instead of the word: “It is good [i.e., improves the function of a community] to improve the function of a community. Gibberish. Now let’s use a moral (as opposed to a functional) meaning of the word good. Moral standard: “Love your neighbor and treat him as you would like to be treated.” Here’s the sentence again: It is good [i.e., I have acted in a way that demonstrates love to my neighbor and have treated him as I would like to be treated] to improve the function of a community. Thus, your argument depends on an equivocation between two senses of the word “good.” The word “good” can mean “improves function” and it can mean “conforms to a moral standard.” It is not logical, however, to ground arguments about the second sense in examples based on the first sense of the word.Barry Arrington
August 24, 2012
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LT: "Volunteering to help a neighbor is an example of a behavior that can be shown to foster good will and stable relationships. As a regular practice, corporal punishment can be shown to have detrimental effects on children and parent-offspring relationships." And if I prefer doing what you call fostering ill will, unstable relationships, and I prefer acting in a way that you find to be damaging children and parental relationships, because I consider those end results preferable? Do I not get to equally call that "good"? Do I not get to equally call volunteering to help a neighbor a bad thing, for whatever justifications I consider valid? Eugenicists considered it a bad thing to save the weak and diseased and the mentally challenged. The spartans tossed the weak off a cliff. LT: "So, like overwhelmingly most people (I hope) torturing babies for fun or not-for-fun is something I disagree with. Beyond my personal disagreement is the physical distress torture would inflict on a child and the social damage to the character of the torturer."' That is still your personal disagreement, because someone else might wish to torture the child specifically to cause the harm you personally wish to avoid. You're trying to objectify your personal preferences. You can't have it both ways; either good is an objective commodity, or it is a personal preference, even if "most" other people share that preference. Someone might consider sundering society and severing relationships and sowing disharmony, unrest and pain a good thing to pursue, for whatever reason. LT: "So what’s wrong with baby torture? What’s wrong is the damage to self-interest that it would inflict upon the perpetrator and any community sanctioning it. No one is left unharmed." That depends on what the self-interested goal is of that person or that society. Once again you are objectifying your personal view by implying that all societies and people should share them. Some cultures and people enjoy spreading pain, suffering, chaos and anarchy. By your position, that kind of goal has equal claim to being "good", and so those people and that kind of society has equal validity in seeing everything you promote as being evil. So, all you are doing here, once again, is blowing self-contradictory smoke up our collective rears. You carefully phrase your argument using relativist terms, but every implication you offer above explicitly assumes that good is an objective commodity - it's good to help neighbors, it fosters "good" will (who gets to define "good" will?), it strengthens relationships (as if that is objectively good), it damages self-interest (according to what study? All self-interest? Even the self-interest of enjoying harming children?), etc. Everything you wrote assumes that what you see as good is an objectively applicable and valid commodity for everyone - or, that at least most everyone else will agree with you that it is good. But, of course, you're blind to the ongoing question-begging quality of your argument. To make the case that moral relativists can agree on anything when it comes to what is right and wrong, you have to assume that they are all somehow magically bound to very similar good. IOW, your "argument" succeeds only in accordance with the proportion of people that already agree with how you personally, subjectively define "good". That's not a logical argument, that's an appeal to popularity. IOW, as long as you're in a society populated mostly by moral objectivists who operate by the same general rules as you, you're free to hide from yourself the true ramifications of moral relativism.William J Murray
August 24, 2012
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--Lar: "So what’s wrong with baby torture? What’s wrong is the damage to self-interest that it would inflict upon the perpetrator and any community sanctioning it. No one is left unharmed." Who are you to impose your values on the baby torturer? You say that his behavior will damage his self interest, but he will likely disagree with you. Give this person the same courtesy that you desire for yourself. Allow him the right to craft his own moral code just as you demand the right to craft your own moral code.StephenB
August 24, 2012
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