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So Two Atheists Are Playing Cards And One Says to the Other . . .

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Watching atheists debate moral issues is fascinating.  Like a man wading a river with water up to his nose and saying “water, what water?” they are up to their noses in irony and yet appear to be completely oblivious to it.

Two atheists debating moral issues are like two card players arguing over whether a particular play is legal when one of them is judging the play by the rules of bridge and the other is judging the play by the rules of poker.

The rules of bridge and the rules of poker, like the rules of all card games, are arbitrary.  Arbitrary rules work fine so long as all the players agree to abide by them.  But what happens when I want to abide by the rules of bridge and you want to abide by the rules of poker?  Who gets to decide whether the arbitrary rules of poker or the arbitrary rules of bridge apply?  The answer, of course, is there is no standard by which we may judge whether the rules of poker are superior to the rules of bridge.  It is a matter of preference.

Sal’s post about Richard Dawkins’ views on infidelity reminded me of Phillip Johnson’s famous “the grand sez who” article.

http://www.arn.org/ftissues/ft9303/articles/pjohnson.html

Atheists’ moral “rules” are nothing but expressions of preference.  Dawkins asks “Why should you deny your loved one the pleasure of sexual encounters with others, if he or she is that way inclined?”  Given atheist premises there is no possible answer to this question other than “I prefer not to.”  Dawkins apparently prefers otherwise.  Who is to judge between the two preferences?

Notice here that the utilitarian/consequentialist “harm principle” to which many atheists instinctively resort when it comes to moral questions does absolutely no good.  Let’s assume the wife prefers monogamy and the husband wants to sleep around.  The “traditional values” atheist says the wife’s position is the moral position because infidelity harms her in obvious ways.  Dawkins says the wife should lighten up, because not only is she not harmed in any way, but also her narrow-minded anti-free love bigotry is harmful to the husband, because it denies him pleasure to which he is inclined.  On what ground can we judge between the asserted harms?  There is none.

Notice also that evolutionary storytelling is singularly unhelpful.  Dawkins says we evolved to have sexual jealousy.  Does he not also have to say that the urge to have sex with more than one partner is an evolved trait?  After all, on his premises there is no other explanation for the existence of that trait.  So when one evolved trait conflicts with anther evolved trait who gets to decide which evolved trait should prevail?  In this particular instance Dawkins has volunteered to show us the way, but why should anyone care what Dawkins’ arbitrary preferences are as opposed to the arbitrary preferences of, say, the Pope?

At the end of the day, on atheist premises good and evil are empty concepts.  There is only “I prefer.”  In other contexts Dawkins himself expresses this plainly when he writes that we live in a universe that has “no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.”  Why, then, does Dawkins believe he has any warrant to lecture us on moral issues?  After all, the obvious answer to any moral assertion he may make is “sez who?”to which he must answer “sez me.”  And the obvious answer to that is “why should I care what you say” to which the answer is . . . [crickets].

Comments
--Lar: "To me, the answer is to judge through democratic and republican processes, rooted in laws which themselves are based on assumptions of civil equality and common welfare." Exactly what kinds of foundational laws are you proposing? You have already ruled out the Natural Moral Law, The Ten Commandments, and the Bible on the grounds that they are absolute and objective. You are, therefore, committed to a relative and subjective moral code arrived at through consensus from the bottom up. If 80% of the people decide that all atheists should immediately be executed, would that be acceptable? If not, why not?StephenB
August 22, 2012
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StephenB
Take me through your steps with a concrete example. Person A, who is married, engages in an extra-marital affair with person B, who is also married. Define the act in moral terms (evil, relatively evil, good, relatively good etc) Explain why it is a good or bad act as opposed to a relatively good or relatively bad act or vice versa. Equally important, identify the moral standard you use to arrive at your answer.
You already have all the tools you need from me, here in this thread, to run through this example yourself. I can't help thinking that your request is but the prelude leading to a different point. If so, care to make that point? I bet we all can guess what it is! (Post completed at 4:09 pm EST, with a usual 1-3 hr. delay in moderation.)LarTanner
August 22, 2012
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Lar, I can't imagine a category called "very morally good" or "very morally bad." I can only imagine a category called "good," and a category called "bad." To be sure, I can imagine greater and lesser degrees of goodness (giving one's life for a friend or forgiving an enemy vs. sharing a sack of peanuts or paying someone a compliment). I can also imagine a category of "bad," which lends itself to greater or lesser degrees of badness (murdering a million Jews or molesting a child vs. using vulgar language in a men's locker room or stealing a paper clip). In each case, though, we are discussing higher and lower levels on a scale of moral absolutes Take me through your steps with a concrete example. Person A, who is married, engages in an extra-marital affair with person B, who is also married. Define the act in moral terms (evil, relatively evil, good, relatively good etc) Explain why it is a good or bad act as opposed to a relatively good or relatively bad act or vice versa. Equally important, identify the moral standard you use to arrive at your answer.StephenB
August 22, 2012
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And, indeed, the Holocaust--which was perpetrated against groups in addition to European Jews--was justified as being morally good. Moreover, very many people who claimed to have moral authority and who represented themselves as having access to objectively determined moral laws either sanctioned the Holocaust and/or didn't think it necessary to act against those particular actions of the Nazi regime. Just what is your point, Barry? Are you going to get serious or are you going to mess around in the usual usual?LarTanner
August 22, 2012
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Let’s use LarTanner’s morality steps and see where it gets us. Step 1: Imagine a category called “very morally good,” and picture an action which satisfies it. Hitler says killing all the Jews in the world would be very good. Step 2: Imagine a category called “very morally bad,” and picture an action which satisfies it. Hitler says allowing free speech would be very bad. Step 3: Observe an actual human action. Hitler observes his underlings plan and prosecute the holocaust. Step 4: Assess where on the scale of good and bad the observed action falls. Hitler says, the holocaust is the very epitome of good. It falls on the extreme side of goodness. Step 5: Refine definitions of categories of good and bad, as necessary. Hitler says it is not necessary to refine the categories. He’s pretty satisfied. Step 6: Consult with others of the definitions of good and bad. Himmler and Goebels agree with hin. Step 7: See Step 5, then repeat from Step 3. Check. The holocaust is good. Congratulations LarTanner. You’ve just created a system that could be used to justify the holocaust as extremely good.Barry Arrington
August 22, 2012
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StephenB,
How can an act be relatively good or relatively evil if there is no such thing as absolute good or evil? How do you know in which moral category an act belongs if neither category actually exists?
Here's how. Step 1: Imagine a category called "very morally good," and picture an action which satisfies it. Step 2: Imagine a category called "very morally bad," and picture an action which satisfies it. Step 3: Observe an actual human action. Step 4: Assess where on the scale of good and bad the observed action falls. Step 5: Refine definitions of categories of good and bad, as necessary. Step 6: Consult with others of the definitions of good and bad. Step 7: See Step 5, then repeat from Step 3.LarTanner
August 22, 2012
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--Lar Tanner "On atheist premises, good and evil are meaningful concepts and very useful. However, they are not absolute." How can an act be relatively good or relatively evil if there is no such thing as absolute good or evil? How do you know in which moral category an act belongs if neither category actually exists?StephenB
August 22, 2012
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Hi Barry, I gave a good-faith effort in providing the substantive material you requested. When do you think you will release that post?LarTanner
August 22, 2012
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Barry, The substance of what I've said to this point amounts to this: we have no reason to take Richard Dawkins's views on morality as necessarily authoritative. We have no reason to take your views as necessarily authoritative. Same with the Pope, the Dalai Lama, Deepak Chopra, Ghandhi, MLK, Aristotle, and dozens of others. To each and every one, we can always say "sez who?" But "sez who?" is the wrong question because we don't care who sez. What we care about is what they sez. So, here is something that someone sez:
Even sticking to the higher plane of love, is it so very obvious that you can't love more than one person? We seem to manage it with parental love (parents are reproached if they don't at least pretend to love all their children equally), love of books, of food, of wine (love of Chateau Margaux does not preclude love of a fine Hock, and we don't feel unfaithful to the red when we dally with the white), love of composers, poets, holiday beaches, friends . . . why is erotic love the one exception that everybody instantly acknowledges without even thinking about it? Why can a woman not love two men at the same time, in their different ways? And why should the two — or their wives -- begrudge her this? If we are being Darwinian, it might be easier to make the case the other way, for a man sincerely and deeply loving more than one woman. But I don't want to pursue the details here. I'm not denying the power of sexual jealousy. It is ubiquitous if not universal. I'm just wondering aloud why we all accept it so readily, without even thinking about it. And why don't we all admire — as I increasingly do -- those rare free spirits confident enough to rise above jealousy, stop fretting about who is "cheating on" whom, and tell the green-eyed monster to go jump in the lake?
The paragraphs ask us to think about sexual jealousy and the bases for it, about why we insist that a romantic partner or spouse be sexually beholden to one person for life (or until the death of the partner). The writer invites us to "wonder aloud" about sexual jealously and our acceptance of it. Clearly, the writer is in a transition of views on the matter. I don't read the writer as saying "sexual jealousy is stupid." Neither does the writer argue that sexual jealousy is immoral. The writer makes no claim that sexual jealousy should be jettisoned altogether. So, I think the writer has presented interesting and thought-provoking views. The writer, of course, is Dawkins. How have you, Barry, responded? In the OP, you ask, "Who is to judge between the two preferences?" I don't think you are a "poopyhead." I don't know you. I'm sure you are a real sweetheart and pillar of the one-percent. But I think, as I've said, "who" is not as great a question as "how." How should we judge between preferences? To me, the answer is to judge through democratic and republican processes, rooted in laws which themselves are based on assumptions of civil equality and common welfare. I hope this answer provides enough substance to satisfy you.LarTanner
August 22, 2012
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LarTanner, seriously, do you have anything of substance to add to this discussion? If you do, please do so. Your last several comments have been whiny “you people are poopyheads” 3rd grade level complaints. You are embarrassing yourself.Barry Arrington
August 22, 2012
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Maus@19:
Since you hold that ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are consequences of a specific count, or range of counts, of non-specific deities.
You think THIS is what I "hold"? Why on earth do you think so? Surely, nothing I have actually written says anything like this. Maus, you seem to have the UD disease of being very liberal about telling me (and atheists, materialists, feminists, "deviants," and others on the UD naughty list) what I hold and what it ultimately means. The plainest point I can make to you is that I do not hold what you say I do. You have bypassed what I wrote and told me I accept some premise that I haven't stated and that I do not in fact accept. You UD folks routinely do this; y'all butcher the simplest declarative sentences. Case in point: Barry's hatchet job at comment 9. See also Blas at 24. And, you too, Maus, are doing the same thing. All of you: Just stop it, already. It's annoying and immature, and it's unfair practice (if not intellectually dishonest). Pardon directness. As another UD regular might say, "I ask you [UD] to correct yourself."LarTanner
August 22, 2012
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Larry said: " On atheist premises, good and evil are meaningful concepts and very useful. However, they are not absolute. Do you disagree? Which part, specifically, do you take issue with?" To understand your point, that good and evil are meaningful but not absolute, you have to explain to what are relative good and evil as they are not absolute.Blas
August 22, 2012
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"Meaningful" not "maning"....lpadron
August 22, 2012
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"On atheist premises, good and evil are meaningful concepts and very useful." Maning and useful insofar as they are convenient labels if people are to get whatever it is they want/need with minimum conflict. But certainly not because any action is intrinsically good or evil.lpadron
August 22, 2012
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The idea of sex with any other woman than my wife -- to whom I have been married for almost 36 years, and who is the mother of my two beloved daughters -- is utterly repulsive to me. It was even repulsive to me when I was an atheist. Somehow I must have absorbed Judeo-Christian values by osmosis from the culture when I was growing up. We were married by her Methodist minister on February 12, 1977. (He was not at all happy that she was marrying a devout atheist, but he acquiesced.) In the end it all turned out okay, once I realized in 1994 that my atheism was not only totally irrational and scientifically absurd, but completely destructive of the human soul. Thank God that I did not raise my two daughters with the misery, irrationality, and nihilism of my former atheism. If it had not been for C.S. Lewis, a Christian friend, the ID movement, and You Know Who, I might have condemned my children to a lifetime of darkness, as promoted by people like Richard Dawkins.GilDodgen
August 21, 2012
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Did Ted Bundy have empathy for the dozens of women he tortured, raped and murdered. Obviously not. SHOULD he have had empathy for them? Sez who? You? Who are you that your opinion matters more than anyone else’s?
Ted Bundy probably did lack empathy, for whatever reason - perhaps he was a psychopath or sociopath. Perhaps empathy can be developed to some extent, but for the most part it’s something natural in us. If someone lacks empathy it’s likely due to some kind of brain damage or defect, such as the highly autistic. And so I would say that one “should” have empathy only in the same sense that I’d say a blind person “should” be able to see.
And even if it is the case that most people have empathy for others you still have not answered why empathy matters.
Empathy is why it pains us to see others in pain. Empathy is why we care about others and is thus a major reason why we have rules on conduct, i.e. morality. I don’t want to be robbed, and because of empathy it saddens me to see a complete stranger being robbed. It’s difficult (for me at least) to imagine how a group of sentient, empathetic, rational beings could live together and morality NOT to develop. And since I’m discussing the origin of morality – empathy matters.
You say empathy SHOULD matter. Sez who? You? Who are you that your opinion matters more than anyone else’s?
I never said empathy “should” matter. I’m not even sure what that means in this context.
Does it not bother you that your moral system is based on propositions that are obviously and demonstrably false? It should.
What propositions are those? You mean the “we all have empathy”? I never said that. I know there are people who lack empathy – that’s why I had the parenthesis in comment #13.
GUN writes: “should we obey God’s laws?” Yes. GUN writes: Sez who? God.
I don’t think I even need to bother pointing out the logical problem there.
GUN writes: “is morality nothing more than fear of divine punishment?” No. God has woven morality into the very fabric of the universe.
This is where the discussions on morality typically break down between Christians and atheists. The Christian goes after the atheist for a perceived lack of concrete and meaningful answers to the origin and nature of morality. The Christian in turn, to the same question… gives answers like this. Talk about irony.
Details obviously vary from culture to culture but the core of God’s moral code — what Lewis called the Tao — is universal, timeless and transcendent.
There's an obvious inter-subjectivity. People generally don’t want to be killed, robbed, raped, lied to, etc. So it’s hardly any wonder that morality is similar the world over.goodusername
August 21, 2012
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LarTanner:
I wrote this:
On atheist premises, good and evil are meaningful concepts and very useful. However, they are not absolute.
Do you disagree? Which part, specifically, do you take issue with?
Well, I should think that was apparent if you read what I wrote as to my thoughts about what you wrote. But either you disagree, or it is opaque to you in a manner that I am uncertain as how to resolve for you. So try this then: Since you hold that 'good' and 'evil' are consequences of a specific count, or range of counts, of non-specific deities. Then I would like your explanation as to how 'good' and 'evil' can be brought to you -- like Sesame Street -- from the numbers 0, 1, or 42.
I only commented originally because sometimes an OP sets off the BS meter to such a degree that not trying to post would have bordered on a fault.
Here here. That's my most prevalent excuse for posting here also. Here's hoping that the BS can be cleared between us. -------------------- goodusername:
Merely assuming that you are a fellow human being (and assuming you are aren’t a psychopath) we would have many grounds with which to discuss morality – as a fellow human we have similar desires, rationality, and empathy.
That's a rather presumptive bit of circularity however. If I have been raised with a different set of subjective morals then what is moral to you may seem psychopathic to me. And vice versa. With respect simply to empathy it is commonly found in studies that human agents go out of their way to 'punish' another human agent in a manner resembling that of cutting one's nose. Indeed, our entire sense of 'serving justice' is prefaced on a studied lack of empathy for the circumstances of the victim of our justice. And there's hardly a limit to the pettiness of such notions. In the US it is far-and-away illegal to eat dogs or horses due the shared sense of morality about such affairs. But in the orient dogs are a common food item, while in Belgium horses are on the menu. Whom is a psychopath under which culture depends solely on that culture's subjective morality. So before I can state, or allow you to assert, that we share most points of empathy in common then I will need to know what weltanschauung you subscribe to. Otherwise I'm clearly out of sorts. Nor, as I mentioned to LarTanner, does a count of godlike objects inform me as to what that may be.Maus
August 21, 2012
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GUN writes: “Actually, I didn’t say we should. I don’t have to say we should – we already do. As I said, as fellow humans we have similar desires, rationality, and empathy – under those circumstances, morality will exist.” You say that we all have empathy as if you know that for a fact when the fact of the matter is plainly otherwise. History, especially the bloody history of the 20th century, is full of examples to the contrary. Did Ted Bundy have empathy for the dozens of women he tortured, raped and murdered. Obviously not. SHOULD he have had empathy for them? Sez who? You? Who are you that your opinion matters more than anyone else’s? And even if it is the case that most people have empathy for others you still have not answered why empathy matters. You say empathy SHOULD matter. Sez who? You? Who are you that your opinion matters more than anyone else’s? Does it not bother you that your moral system is based on propositions that are obviously and demonstrably false? It should. GUN writes: “should we obey God’s laws?” Yes. GUN writes: Sez who? God. GUN writes: “is morality nothing more than fear of divine punishment?” No. God has woven morality into the very fabric of the universe. Details obviously vary from culture to culture but the core of God’s moral code -- what Lewis called the Tao -- is universal, timeless and transcendent. GUN, do you want to know why you have a moral sense? Because you are created in the image of God. No matter how vehemently you deny that fact deep down you know it to be true. Do you know why the Bible says that the fool has said in his heart there is no God? Because only a fool denies what he knows to be true.Barry Arrington
August 21, 2012
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Barry @12, If you think that my response to you amounted to "Barry is just an ignorant poopyhead,” then there's no point continuing a discussion because you are not understanding what I say but rather going off on what you think I mean. I have already pointed out that this is what you do in the OP. As one of your UD comrades is wont to say, perhaps you can "do better." Maus @11: Same counsel to you. Look at what I actually say, not what you think I mean. (My post-graduate programs taught me to do this.) I wrote this:
On atheist premises, good and evil are meaningful concepts and very useful. However, they are not absolute.
Do you disagree? Which part, specifically, do you take issue with? I also wrote this:
On atheist premises, there is no agency or church-head proclaiming moral law from a “ground of being.” Similarly, there is no ruler with automatic authority to impose his or her values on people.
Again, do you disagree? With which part? I'd appreciate it if y'all responded to my actual statements before working out "the implications of my logic." UD-ers tend to go straight to the implications, and get them wrong far too often. I am going to count it as my good fortune to have my comments sit in moderation only a little while in this thread. But I have no intention to continue posting. I only commented originally because sometimes an OP sets off the BS meter to such a degree that not trying to post would have bordered on a fault.LarTanner
August 21, 2012
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Ah, the usual appeal to empathy as a foundation for ethics — GUN knows Maus would feel badly about being murdered; therefore GUN concludes he should not murder him. GUN, do you not see that your analysis just pushes the “sez who?” question back; it does not resolve it. Your argument assumes you should care about how Maus feels about being murdered. Sez who?
Actually, I didn't say we should. I don’t have to say we should – we already do. As I said, as fellow humans we have similar desires, rationality, and empathy – under those circumstances, morality will exist. How does, say, Christianity, resolve the “sez who?” question? Let’s assume God exists – should we obey God’s laws? Sez who? It does add a utilitarian/consequentialist factor to the equation (Hell), but then, is morality nothing more than fear of divine punishment?goodusername
August 21, 2012
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@es58 "He may be incapable of believing it, but that’s his problem from that perspective. It comes down to nothing but preference." Is there anyone who actually believes that and is able to live by it? So, if you are wronged, tough luck, right? Let's say someone spreads false rumors about you. Is that right or wrong or just a matter of personal preference. The fact that you didn't like it is something you just have to live with. Or, you could choose to get revenge in which case the other guy has to live with it. Or he too, could take revenge, etc etc etc. Or you could go to the extreme, let's say someone wants your daughter. Rape may be against the law, but it is not wrong in the absolute sense of the word and if they can get away with it, they have done nothing wrong because it is all personal preference, right? Atheists are under the false impression that if they can get away with something, they will never have to take responsibility for it. Why is this a dangerous concept? Because anything can be justified under atheism - everything is relative - what does it really matter if you do something "wrong" if you don't get caught - really? Why is it that the top 10 murderous dictators were all atheists? Would that have anything to do with their view of God(there is none), humans(no particular value/purpose, nothing but randomly evolved animals), and no judgment after death(I'm totally free.) When taken to the extreme, these beliefs CAN lead to unspeakable horrors. Fortunately, most atheists are nice neighbors and don't take their beliefs to the logical extreme, but the potential is always there because there is nothing in their worldview to prevent that from happening. Unfortunately, total freedom removes all meaning from life, our choices, and our beliefs because it means that ultimately nothing matters.tjguy
August 21, 2012
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Goodusername (GUN) writes: “I wouldn’t need to know what religion you are or to read a guidebook to assume that you wouldn’t want to be murdered” Ah, the usual appeal to empathy as a foundation for ethics -- GUN knows Maus would feel badly about being murdered; therefore GUN concludes he should not murder him. GUN, do you not see that your analysis just pushes the “sez who?” question back; it does not resolve it. Your argument assumes you should care about how Maus feels about being murdered. Sez who?Barry Arrington
August 21, 2012
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Maus, Merely assuming that you are a fellow human being (and assuming you are aren’t a psychopath) we would have many grounds with which to discuss morality – as a fellow human we have similar desires, rationality, and empathy. And so morality is not arbitrary like the rules of a card game. I wouldn’t need to know what religion you are or to read a guidebook to assume that you wouldn’t want to be murdered or robbed, and that you thus would feel that it’s wrong to murder or rob others. I wouldn’t know what you’re feelings are towards eating ham though.goodusername
August 21, 2012
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Lar@10: Do you care to make an actual argument or are you satisfied with resting on your “Barry is just an ignorant poopyhead” response? Did they teach you to argue like that in your PhD program? I love interacting with you. You are among the other side’s best and brightest, and if that’s the best you can do, well alright then. I feel better on this side.Barry Arrington
August 21, 2012
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LarTanner:
On atheist premises, good and evil are meaningful concepts and very useful. However, they are not absolute
Say then that I tell you I'm a Zoroastrian; that this is the primary feature of my weltanschauung. Does this give you any information about my subjective notions of good and evil? Say that I tell you I'm a Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, Animist, or anything else. Do these weltanschauungs afford you any information about my subjective notions of good and evil? Now say that I tell you that I'm an Atheist or Agnostic. That tells you a point about my theistic beliefs, but it says nothing of definitional interest about my weltanschauung. It tells you not one thing about what I believe in regards morality. For these, and without further enquiry, 'good' and 'evil' are meaningless terms when applied to these two takes on Theism. If I should tell you that I am an Atheist, and you want my sense of morality, then you have need to ask some other question. Either point by point, or by looking for a weltanschauung that I subscribe to. The most common and trivial notion for this would be to ask which political party or movement with which I identify. Not whom I vote for, if the other guy is Hitler; but which I identify with. Similarly you could point to any entrenched political apparatus and ask if I identify with it. Whether it be the US Govenment, or that of New Zealand, Russia, or so on. 'Good' and 'evil' are meaningful terms in a general sense. But for them to apply to any 'ist' or 'ism' it is first necessary that the 'ism' in question defines what is good and what is evil. Atheism and Agnosticism by themselves, are not such animals. I am more than happy to admit any error I have made in these statements. Simply show me the official 'Atheist guidebook to morality' or the official 'Agnostic guidebook to morality' and I will happily recant. But then:
On atheist premises, there is no agency or church-head proclaiming moral law from a “ground of being.” Similarly, there is no ruler with automatic authority to impose his or her values on people.
If that is correct then there are no such guidebooks and the point of 'good' and 'evil' are meaningless to both Atheism and Agnosticism. And if you can proffer such a guidebook then your notion that Atheists, and perhaps Agnostics, do not have 'authorities' and 'high priests' is in error.Maus
August 21, 2012
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Barry, I'm not going to help you with your reading comprehension or fair quoting practices. But you clearly don't know the first thing about atheism. I'm not sure you even think there is much at all to know about atheism. You talk about "logical ends," and it all rings hollow because you clearly have not given much serious thought to the subject.LarTanner
August 21, 2012
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LarTanner writes: “This gives the lie to the hysterical statement, “on atheist premises good and evil are empty concepts.” “No ultimate foundation for ethics exists.” Will Provine “Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something, ethics is illusory.” Michael Ruse “Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before.” Thomas Huxley “no purpose, no evil and no good” Dawkins Lar, are these prominent atheists, in your words, “hysterical” when they claim that the concepts of good and evil are ultimately empty? No, they seem pretty dispassionate to me. And why shouldn’t they be? On their premises the conclusions they state are obvious. LarTanner writes: “On atheist premises, good and evil are meaningful concepts . . .” Fail. The most prominent atheists in the world disagree with you. Your statement also flies in the face of common sense. LarTanner writes: “there’s no need to make atheism the boogeyman–that just tells every onlooker that the theist is nervous.” Um, no one has made ethics a “boogeyman.” I simply pointed out the logical ends of their premises. I’m not nervous. Dawkins is nervous when he admits that it is difficult, on his premises, to say whether Hitler was right or wrong.Barry Arrington
August 21, 2012
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LarTanner: Ah, but the world is also one of cooperation and collaboration.
Of course. The flow of power (and thus 'morality') is very often a complicated arrangement.CentralScrutinizer
August 21, 2012
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Sez the ones with the bigger might. Like it or not, it’s simply a fact of life in a world of competition.
Ah, but the world is also one of cooperation and collaboration. The architects of the United States government strove to leverage all three. They did a decent job of it. Not perfect, but very good. This gives the lie to the hysterical statement, "on atheist premises good and evil are empty concepts." False. On atheist premises, good and evil are meaningful concepts and very useful. However, they are not absolute. On atheist premises, there is no agency or church-head proclaiming moral law from a "ground of being." Similarly, there is no ruler with automatic authority to impose his or her values on people. In short, there's no need to make atheism the boogeyman--that just tells every onlooker that the theist is nervous.LarTanner
August 21, 2012
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Lar Tanner: Sez who?
Sez the ones with the bigger might. Like it or not, it's simply a fact of life in a world of competition.CentralScrutinizer
August 21, 2012
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