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Some Things are Really Simple

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Here is an example:

Barry to Popperian:

Anyone who cannot unambiguously condemn the practice of chopping little boys and girls up and selling the pieces like so much meat shares in the evil of those who do so.

Popperian responds:

Note how Barry is making my point for me. I wrote:

From time to time, old words become obsolete. For an non-essentialist this is not a problem. This is because non-essentialists view words as a tool, not a Thing with a capital T. If any word ceases to function as a tool, a non-essentialists will quickly let it go and find some other new tool to solve problems with. On the other hand, an essentialist will not do this. Why not? Because, for the essentialist, all words correspond with Things with a capital T. And Things do not just disappear. Because of this view, an essentialist is significantly less likely to change their opinion of anything, if at all.

However, an essentialist is sure that some Thing actually corresponds with his words. As such, he will try to figure out why a non-essentialist won’t admit there really is such a Thing as the Thing he is talking about. The essentialist might merely think the non-essentialist is merely ignorant, or that their intellect is on the fritz. Or he might even decide you are down right evil. But the essentialist certainly won’t agree the Thing he refers to with his word can be so quickly dismissed.

(emphasis in original)

Let’s examine this. It is 1943 and I say:

Anyone who cannot unambiguously condemn the practice of cooking Jews in ovens like so much meat shares in the evil of those who do so.

What would you think of someone who gave Popperian’s response? You would think they agree with the goals of the Holocaust and therefore share in the guilt of that unspeakable evil. And you would be right.

So yes, Popperian, I do say you are down right evil.

Popperian thinks he is oh-so-sophisticated. “Words are so ambiguous; I can’t possibly condemn the killers.” Meanwhile the slaughter of innocents continues unabated.

Damn your pseudo-sophisticated sophistry Popperian. It is counterproductive to dignify it by getting into the weeds and countering your logical fallacies point by point. Instead, like Dr. Johnson and his famous rock kicking demonstration, I refute your moral theorizing thusly:

Does your moral theory compel you unambiguously to condemn the practice of chopping little boys and girls up and selling the pieces like so much meat?

No? Then your moral theory is as worthless as a fresh steaming pile of dog feces.

Comments
To be clear, we're leaving Eugen's formulation behind, which is fine. Generally I think they're describing a woman's right to choose an abortion, subject (depending on who's speaking) to the legal limitations of that right.Learned Hand
August 28, 2015
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LH,
Is this what any actual human beings believe? I don’t think I’ve ever met someone who believed that all choices were good. Everyone I can think of believes that (a) the freedom to choose, as a general concept, is a pretty good thing, but that (b) some choices are good and some are bad.
It has nothing to do with the distinction between good choices and bad choices. Just for fun, tell me what you think Planned Parenthood, NARAL, and Hillary Clinton mean when they use the term, "a woman's right to choose." Sum it up in your own words.StephenB
August 28, 2015
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Eugen described the logic of the “pro-choice” movement. Indeed, the idea that “choice” is an absolute rather than a relative good is the very reason that the movement is called the “pro-choice” movement. Is this what any actual human beings believe? I don't think I've ever met someone who believed that all choices were good. Everyone I can think of believes that (a) the freedom to choose, as a general concept, is a pretty good thing, but that (b) some choices are good and some are bad.Learned Hand
August 28, 2015
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LH,
Your “obvious logic” is not the logic that Eugen wrote down.
It is a corollary to his major premise. Dear readers, please take note of what just happened. Eugen described the logic of the "pro-choice" movement. Indeed, the idea that "choice" is an absolute rather than a relative good is the very reason that the movement is called the "pro-choice" movement. LH demolishes that logic. Choice, he assures us, is not an absolute good. Indeed, choice can be affirmatively evil if what one chooses is evil. And LH is indisputably correct when he says that. But LH is a liberal who supports the virtually unlimited abortion license the Supreme Court has imposed on us. Now that he has demolished the logic of the argument most frequently used to justify the abortion license -- indeed the argument for which the movement is named -- what is he to do? Will it give him pause? I doubt it.Barry Arrington
August 28, 2015
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The obvious logic is that “choice” as an abstraction is sacrosanct. Your "obvious logic" is not the logic that Eugen wrote down. But you did get to call people idiots again, so mission accomplished?Learned Hand
August 28, 2015
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Friend writes to add: Mung's baby-q sauce. "Give a whole new zing to your baby back ribs!" Where are you PZ Myers?Mung
August 28, 2015
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LH @ 34: You point out that the logic is terrible. I certainly agree with that. But you are wrong to deny that is it liberal logic. “My body, my choice” liberal pro-aborts scream until they are red in the face. The obvious logic is that “choice” as an abstraction is sacrosanct. You are correct. The argument is idiotic, but liberals make it every day.Barry Arrington
August 28, 2015
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Eugen
Allowing choices promotes humane society. To kill unborn baby is a choice. Killing unborn babies promotes humane society.
Is this logic liberals use? Learned Hand replies
No.
What rock have you been hiding under for the last 42 years LH? It is not for nothing that pro-abortion advocates call themselves “pro-choice.” What is it they want to choose LH? It certainly isn’t strawberry ice cream. I don’t see how denying the obvious advances truth or clarity.
I don’t see how denying the obvious advances truth or clarity either. And I think it’s obvious that Eugen’s logical is not the “logic liberals use.” It’s not hard to see why: “Allowing choices promotes humane society. To [shoot abortion doctors] is a choice. [Shooting abortion doctors] promotes humane society.” No, this is not the logic liberals use (nor anyone else).Learned Hand
August 28, 2015
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"Aeh, you must have forgotten your posts #23 and #25?" I still remember them. "not just for me but for everybody who supports abortion" Yes. Andrewasauber
August 28, 2015
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You filled in the blank by admitting you like to knowingly do evil things. Welcome to the human race.
Aeh, you must have forgotten your posts #23 and #25? You filled in those blanks, not just for me but for everybody who supports abortion. Welcome to the internet.hrun0815
August 28, 2015
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"That’s the beauty of filling in the blanks independent of whatever anybody says." You filled in the blank by admitting you like to knowingly do evil things. Welcome to the human race. Andrewasauber
August 28, 2015
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Right, and the fact that you are engaging with me right now, means you want to hear what I have to say. You are crying for help, I know. You are not the only one.
Heads you win, tails I lose. That's the beauty of filling in the blanks independent of whatever anybody says. I do understand that it's easier this way.hrun0815
August 28, 2015
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"So clearly I like doing evil things." Right (everyone does), and the fact that you are engaging with me right now, means you want to hear what I have to say. You are crying for help, I know. You are not the only one. Andrewasauber
August 28, 2015
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They might. There’s no magic bullet. It’s not my responsibility to make their decisions for them, but it is my responsibility to present them with good information, especially in regards to an issue as grave as this.
They might indeed. And good to know that you think this is not your responsibility either. So your fight against the greatest evil in human history is done for a while until it's time to point the evil out one more time.
So I can conclude your worldview doesn’t aspire to that. Yours aspires to buy and sell baby parts.
Andrew, you already pointed out that I know it is evil. So clearly I like doing evil things.hrun0815
August 28, 2015
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"I see, the folks who support abortion are knowingly doing evil, and you think by pointing out one more time that it is evil you think that they will stop knowingly doing evil." They might. There's no magic bullet. It's not my responsibility to make their decisions for them, but it is my responsibility to present them with good information, especially in regards to an issue as grave as this. So I can conclude your worldview doesn't aspire to that. Yours aspires to buy and sell baby parts. Andrewasauber
August 28, 2015
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Yes. You must have just fallen off the turnip truck.
I guess I did.
So the people supporting it are presented with the opportunity as many times as is reasonably possible to stop supporting it. People often need help overcoming particular sins.
I see, the folks who support abortion are knowingly doing evil, and you think by pointing out one more time that it is evil you think that they will stop knowingly doing evil. I guess that's the Jewish Grandma approach to combating the biggest evil in human history. I wonder how well that is working?hrun0815
August 28, 2015
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"You are now faced with a huge fraction of the population that knowingly does evil." Yes. You must have just fallen off the turnip truck. "Why bother pointing out that abortion is wrong or evil?" So the people supporting it are presented with the opportunity as many times as is reasonably possible to stop supporting it. People often need help overcoming particular sins. Andrewasauber
August 28, 2015
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I’m not sure who that would be. Anyone in particular? Or do you mean strictly some imaginary/hypothetical “people”?
I guess you are implying that everyone knows this to be wrong, yet the folks that support abortion for some reason simply don't care? I guess you could argue that, but then I would think that people here on this board (and elsewhere) should change their approach. Why bother pointing out that abortion is wrong or evil? Everyone apparently already agrees. You are now faced with a huge fraction of the population that knowingly does evil. What to do?hrun0815
August 28, 2015
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"How about the people who do not recognize it is wrong and still support/enable it?" I'm not sure who that would be. Anyone in particular? Or do you mean strictly some imaginary/hypothetical "people"? Andrewasauber
August 28, 2015
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What more can I reasonably do?
I don't know. I don't know about your personal opinion, but there are clearly several people on this board who believe that at some point their god will judge for what they did and did not do in the face of what they believe is the biggest slaughter of innocents in the history of the world.
How guilty are the people who recognize it’s wrong but pretend it’s not and still support/enable it?
In your eyes (and possibly in your god's eyes too) probably more so. How about the people who do not recognize it is wrong and still support/enable it?hrun0815
August 28, 2015
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Barry, you ask how long will the Lord wait to avenge rhe blood of innocents? Rejoice, because God has already passed judgement and has been executing the sentence of total genocide against the people that legalized abortion. The execution of this sentence began over forty years ago. God is merciful. He does not send lightning bolts to instantaneously destroy a people. He sinks the birthrate 1/2 percent below replacement per year. So the sentence takes about 200 years. Now that's mercy, giving us plenty of time to repent. I like to think of the Hispanic invasion of the US as the revenge of the Catholic Church who is punishing a society for rejecting Jesus. Isn't it interesting how radical seculars who are so pro pornography, no-fault divorce, promiscuity, and gay marriage are in favour of Muslim and Hispanic immigration and totally apathetic about their own societies below replacement birthrate? But they are obsessed with changing weather that will have almost no impact. And is it a co-incidence that there is a flood of people coming to Europe illegally now too. And the people responsible for our moral disintegration, the seculars, are so keen to allow the immigrants to replace there own people. And these seculars think what they're doing is best for society (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).Peter
August 28, 2015
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hrun0815, "If abortion is as bad or worse than the holocaust, then how guilty are the ones who recognize this and don’t do anything about it?" Well stated rhetorical. I do believe that abortion is worse than the holocaust. > I am actively involved in the leadership of my local right to life group. > I have an offer of financial assistance to anyone for whom money will make the difference between aborting and not (managed through my local right to life group). > I refuse to vote for a federal/provincial candidate that is "pro choice". (As I am Canadian, this often means that I don't vote at all.) > I debate this topic valiantly on line and in person. What more can I reasonably do?bFast
August 28, 2015
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"then how guilty are the ones who recognize this and don’t do anything about it?" Depends on what the possible courses of action are for each person. But yes, there is responsibility here. How guilty are the people who recognize it's wrong but pretend it's not and still support/enable it? Andrewasauber
August 28, 2015
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If abortion is as bad or worse than the holocaust, then how guilty are the ones who recognize this and don't do anything about it?hrun0815
August 28, 2015
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Eugen
Allowing choices promotes humane society. To kill unborn baby is a choice. Killing unborn babies promotes humane society. Is this logic liberals use?
Learned Hand replies
No.
What rock have you been hiding under for the last 42 years LH? It is not for nothing that pro-abortion advocates call themselves "pro-choice." What is it they want to choose LH? It certainly isn't strawberry ice cream. I don't see how denying the obvious advances truth or clarity. Barry Arrington
August 28, 2015
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Barry Arrington @13
We are against sophistry masquerading as intellectual discourse in the service of evil.
That is a perfect description of it: sophistry masquerading as intellectual discourse in the service of evil. Those incapable of objectivity, whose analytical skills don't go beyond agreeing with whoever is saying what they want to believe, are persuaded by such evil sophistry. As for the rest of us, it just makes clear that it is irrational evil with which we contend.harry
August 28, 2015
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Allowing choices promotes humane society. To kill unborn baby is a choice. Killing unborn babies promotes humane society. Is this logic liberals use? No.Learned Hand
August 27, 2015
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Barry, it's just impolite in this day and age to say things as they are.Mung
August 27, 2015
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Dear readers, please do not get me wrong. We at UD are not against intellectual discussions and highly technical logical disputation. Several of our authors, including StephenB, vjtorley, and KF, engage in such all the time. We are against sophistry masquerading as intellectual discourse in the service of evil. As I mention in the OP, I sometimes believe that getting in the weeds with such as Popperian is affirmatively counterproductive. After all, their goal is not clarity, and anything one says is always met with more obfuscation. It follows that responding to them gives them more opportunities to obfuscate. Sometimes, the best course is to meet their linguistic knots the way Alexander did with Gordias' knot or the way Dr. Johnson did outside of Berkeley's church. And sometimes the best course is to get in the weeks with them. All of which proves yet again that Proverbs 26:4-5 is true.Barry Arrington
August 27, 2015
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Popperian fancies himself an intellectual. That reminds me of this from George Orwell
Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.
Barry Arrington
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